English Premier Division Data [Discussion]

As long as stats are used alongside observational analysis, I've got no problem with them. I do feel Martinez should be considered one of the best GKs around at the moment. I've added the top GKs from around the world to the spreadsheet, and he's currently sitting at 

Spoiler

9th overall with CA 156 and consistency of 14. 

So he sits as top of the pile of GKs who aren't currently considered Elite, behind Donnarumma (CA 160 Consistency 16). 

 

Spoiler

 

A few things I'd personally increase would be: Positioning (13); his starting point for engaging in crosses is good, as his natural set position for angles/saves/dive coverage. Composure (12) might not seem bad at first glance, but when you look at the GKs rated around him, it starts to feel low.

The only GKs that received the ball more in open play from their teammates last season were:

Alisson - 901 touches
Ederson - 833 touches
Raya - 808 touches
Leno - 783 touches
Martinez - 707 touches

2 miscontrols is joint third highest, so perhaps his first touch/concentration could be looked at. But to put it into perspective Nick Pope also had 2 miscontrols with only 344 touches of the ball in open play. Lloris similar numbers 2/353. 

17 touches in the middle 3rd would show he's fairly comfortable with his positioning outside of the penalty area when his team are in possession of the ball. Of course, this number also depends on the style of play of the team and how high a line they play. 

Fraser Forster

Ambition: 19 - this seems extreme considering the last few years he's been happy to be number 2 GK despite only being 35. He also stayed at Newcastle as 3rd choice keeper until he was 24/25 before moving to Celtic.
Loyalty: 8 - Seems low given if you're happy with Ambition of 19, as he doesn't move clubs until he has to, excluding loans he's only played senior football for Celtic, Southampton and Tottenham.
Composure: 16 - This seems excessive as his confidence on the ball has been one of his weaknesses for much of his career, while improved I have doubts he's as composed as this. 

Spoiler

This would make Forster the joint 4th highest composed GK amongst the top rated GKs in the world. 
Determination: 17 - Perhaps a difficult one to rate for GKs, unless you consider their performances improve and they go beyond their normal ability after conceding a goal to keep the score respectable. A 17 again seems extreme. Linked with a 19 Ambition, you'd expect Forster to be pushing to be the best GK he can be. Granted he did well to recover from his injury problem several years ago
 

Edited November 13, 2023 by ChrisNUFC

The Arsenal record bug is down to the team being extinct. If you change the team, the records show @Pete Sottrel

Edited November 13, 2023 by ajw10

On 13/11/2023 at 00:05, ChrisNUFC said:

Goalkeepers

 

I haven't looked through this in great detail yet, but really confused by how highly rated Caomin Kelleher is. 24 years old with a total of 27 senior appearances, yet they're 15th best GK in PL. based on CA of 141. Some questions over composure 14, first touch 14,  heading 10, passing 14, technique 13. Appreciate he's at Liverpool at might be learning from Alisson, yet it feels very high and if certainly if he was so highly regarded in those areas I can imagine Liverpool would have had several offers for the player given the current trend towards GK being a true outfield player when in possession. Especially considering his concentration and consistency is also 14, along with decisons 13. 

 

Agility

On initial inspection, it looks like there could be some coordination between researchers, or perhaps suggested guidelines to help get a structured approach on agility. There are some very tall and also some heavy goalkeepers who have been rated surprisingly agile. I'd consider agility to be more than a person's ability to simply dive, but also what kind of save they're making. A low down save with hands or feet requires more agility than a top corner dive, another example would be single hand scoop pulling the ball back from behind the GK requires a lot of agility. While its not always the case, GKs with a slight frame tend to be more agile than taller or bulkier GKs. You could also consider a person's age and injury history (certainly if they've had a torn rotator cuff for example). 

So seeing the likes of 36 year old Darren Randolph (188cm/98kg) with an agility of 14, which is similar to Jose Sa (192cm/84gk) doesn't look right out in the pure data sense, and makes me think one should be lower and another should be higher. 

I'd also take into consideration a GK's bodyshape when looking at things like balance too, especially their set stance and and footwork. Do they have a straight back or are their sticking their backside out when set. Can they move their feet in quick shuffles sideways to help launch themselves into a dive or do they push/flop from a set position? 

Cross Claiming and dealing with Corners

This is a major issue for GKs at the moment, and I think the above attributes should be grouped together to help deterimine if a GK is good at claiming crosses in open play and during set peices. 

Aggression - I feel this should be used and judged on how confident the GK is at attacking the ball while it is in flight
Bravery - Key to the above when dealing with a congested penalty area
Strength - How well they can move through a crowded penalty area (linked to balance above for footwork)
Anticipation - Recognising where the location of the highest point they (GK) can catch the ball (Do they often move under a ball when coming to claim?)
Decisions - Absolute key attribute for GKs, which should be modified by aggression and bravery. For example: Do they come and claim? Do they catch or punch? Is it a single handed punch for extended reach or a double fist puch for security at the expense of reach? Do they recognise they're inability to claim crosses and instead call for the defenders to clear it? Do they spot if it is an outswinger or inswinging cross and change on they'll attack the ball
Eccentricity - I feel like this is a difficult one for people to come to an agreed decision upon. But for me I'll always think of it as how well does the GK inspire confidence in the rest of the team during a game. Are they consistent with their decision making, technique, secure handling, etc. or is every cross/shot a new experience with parries and fisted saves pushing the ball wildly into the unknown. Similar for GKs who play out from the back, do they stick to the pattern of play or do they scramble and play wild passes into players who wouldn't normally receive a pass when playing out from the back. 

Jumping Reach and Areial Abiltiy being the GKs overall ability to jump and reach to their highest point
Command of Area and Communication organisation of the defensive unit, stop the cross, defending the 6 yard, pen spot, 18 yard, push out, etc. 

With that in mind, if we add up the attributes and minus eccentricity we should get an idea of who the best GKs are with cross claiming:

If we compare this with: https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_high_claim you can start to see a picture of who might be better than others at deal with crosses. Of course a TOTAL stat doesn't show you success rate. Sky Sports ran this at the start of the season: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12933578/best-goalkeeper-in-the-premier-league-revealed-andre-onana-david-raya-and-robert-sanchez-transfers-analysed showing the best GKs at claiming crosses were: 

Goalkeeper.com data vs (SI)

1. Martinez (Alisson)
2. Pope (Ederson)
3. Alisson (Raya)
4. Ederson (Onana)
5. Raya (Vicario)
6. Leno (Martinez)
7. Kepa (Neto)
8. Ramsdale (Areola)* Omitted Dubravka as Sky Sports only used primary GKs from the 22/23 season

Which suggests that Martinez, Pope, Leno, and Ramsdale have perhaps been slightly undervalued at cross claiming, although, I could have easily overthought how much the attributes matter for cross claiming. 

If we look at it in a simpler sense:

This is how goalkeeper.com's data ranked the GKs last season based on 6 factors: Shotstopping and parries; Sweeping and Cross Claiming; Shot Prevention and Distribution.

The above are the top 20 GKs in the PL based on CA. 

goalkeeper.com vs (SI)

1. Martinez (Ederson)
2. Alisson (Alisson)
3. Leno (Martinez)
4. Raya (Raya)
5 Pope (Onana)
6. Kepa (Pickford)
7. Ramsdale (Vicario)
8. Guaita (Kepa)
9. De Gea (Pope)
10. Ederson (Neto)
11. Fabianksi (Ramsdale)
12. Neto (Leno)
13. Pickford (Sanchez)
14. Henderson (Steele)
15. Sa (Kelleher)
16. Sanchez (Areola)
17. Mslier (Turner)
18. Ward (Flekken)
19. Lloris (Sa)
20. Bazunu (Johnstone)

Again this is only one dataset comparison, so hardly conclusive, but it does show that perhaps a few GKs have been undervalued and perhaps some have been overvalued in their worth. 

So let's check: https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/2022-2023/keepersadv/2022-2023-Premier-League-Stats which provides a little more detail

Their Top 5 is:

1. Martinez
2. Raya
3. Pope
4. Sa
5. Bazunu

 

GK - fbref - SI

1. Martinez  - Martinez - Alisson
2. Pope - Raya - Ederson
3. Alisson - Pope -  Raya
4. Ederson - Sa - Onana**
5. Raya - Bazunu - Vicario***
6. Leno - Meslier - Martinez
7. Kepa - Steele - Neto
8. Guaita  - Leno - Areola* Omitted Dubravka as Sky Sports only used primary GKs from the 22/23 season
9 Ramsdale - Sanchez - Flekken
10 Sanchez - Henderson - Ramsdale*Omitted Lloris as Vicario is now 1st choice at Tottenham

The noticable name here is Martinez, who seems to have had his ability to deal with crosses overlooked.

**Onana ranked 11th in Serie A last season for crosses stopped % with 5.3%, which would have had him ranked 20th overall in the 22/23 EPL season.
***Vicario ranked 9th in Serie A last season for crosses stopped with 5.6%, which would have had him ranked 18th overall in the 22/23 EPL season. 

I'm sure the same could be done for distribution, sweeping, held shots vs parries, etc. but I've only had time to look at cross claiming. In short, EPL GKs, from what I can see, need some consistency to their ratings and look either overvalued or undervalued perhaps due to CA guidelines. 

 

Below are the GK cross stats so far this season. 

Thanks very much for the detailed analysis, @ChrisNUFC - we will be looking into that, carefully.

21 hours ago, ajw10 said:

The Arsenal record bug is down to the team being extinct. If you change the team, the records show @Pete Sottrel

OK - thanks, @ajw10

On 12/11/2023 at 14:50, ChrisNUFC said:

Anfield should have 'Not Used in Continental Finals' selected due to being unable to reach the desired Field of play size to be considered a Cat 4 stadium.
I believe Old Trafford should also have 'Not Used in Continental Finals' selected, due to the position of their tunnel (as required from 2011) to be on the halfway line

Anfield, Craven Cottage, Goodison Park, St. James' Park, Tottenham Hotspurs Stadium, London Stadium, Shelhurt Park, Emirates and Molynuex all need digital hordings ticked. 

That's helpful, @ChrisNUFC - thanks!

All teams do not display transfers correctly in the season preview after the update
How can I fix this myself?

3 hours ago, SerCska10 said:

All teams do not display transfers correctly in the season preview after the update
How can I fix this myself?

Hi @SerCska10 - I will pass this on to someone who may be able to help you; this is not a data issue.

3 hours ago, SerCska10 said:

All teams do not display transfers correctly in the season preview after the update
How can I fix this myself?

Hi @SerCska10, this isn't reproducing for us internally. If you report it as an issue with a save file via the link below we can investigate further.

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2024-early-access-bugs-tracker/transfers-scouting-contracts-and-agentsintermediaries/

Billy Mercer should be a GK Coach at Everton.

https://www.evertonfc.com/news/3581140/goalkeeper-coach-mercer-joins-blues

On 27/10/2023 at 12:56, ajw10 said:

Arsenal are missing all records from the results. No record win, defeat etc.

 

@Pete Sottrel

Hi @ajw10 - I have received confirmation from the coding team that this has been looked into, and should be fixed in a forthcoming update.

Chris Agutter is still Stevenage U18 Manager in Game - he joined Brighton as an U18 coach back in November 2022.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-agutter-6b908524a?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app

Chris McGuane - Head of Academy - Nottingham Forest FC | LinkedIn

He is not listed on the Forest staff in game.

Cristian M. Fernández Martínez - Head of Rehab - Wolves | LinkedIn

He is in game - but not at Wolves as he should be.

Brais Fernández Corredoura on LinkedIn: At Tottenham we are looking for an academy physiotherapist intern. This is…

Should be moved to Spurs from Cardiff.

Svetolav Todorov - Academy coach - Crystal Palace Football Club | LinkedIn

Should be an U18 coach at Crystal Palace.

Edited November 18, 2023 by lbowman6
Wolves

On 18/11/2023 at 17:26, lbowman6 said:

Chris McGuane - Head of Academy - Nottingham Forest FC | LinkedIn

He is not listed on the Forest staff in game.

Cristian M. Fernández Martínez - Head of Rehab - Wolves | LinkedIn

He is in game - but not at Wolves as he should be.

Brais Fernández Corredoura on LinkedIn: At Tottenham we are looking for an academy physiotherapist intern. This is…

Should be moved to Spurs from Cardiff.

Svetolav Todorov - Academy coach - Crystal Palace Football Club | LinkedIn

Should be an U18 coach at Crystal Palace.

Thanks. Todorov isn't an U18 coach. He's the lead coach for the U16s, so he wouldn't be included in the game.

 

Chris Baird has left Southampton to become a Scout at Man City.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-baird-241b02181?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app

Mustafa Alper Avcı

should be an U18 coach at Man City as well.https://www.linkedin.com/in/mustafa-alper-avcı-103301196?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app

This data is only for the rightbacks in the EPL, so it might not be the case throughout the database. 

Lack of Growth

 

There seems to be a real lack of depth amongst 23-28 year olds to grow and develop. Given that this should be their time to gain first team football and see the biggest developments in their game mentally (and fitness wise) it's surprising to see that there are only two players in the EPL that have room for 30 or more points of growth in their CA. 

Couple this with the what I feel are high Natural Fitness ratings in a lot of 28+ year old players with high ratings, means they never get to play or develop in game. As the higher rated CA players with high natural fitness don't start to decline until very late into their 30s. This could be having knock on effects to AI Squad Building. 

Wayne Rooney is someone who for some reason used to have a high natural fitness, which I believe was never the case. He was just someone who worked EXTRA hard to maintain his fitness as he wasn't natural fit. 

Here are the RBs in the EPL with a Natural Fitness above 15. 

Again this is just personal take on natural fitness, I sometimes wonder if researchers overlook or take for granted that these are professional footballers who are training to maintain their fitness. Off-Season is sometimes a good indication of natural fitness, returning from injuries too. I'd always side on caution with this rating, given how impactful it is to prolonging careers at the very top of their CA. There's very few players in the modern era that can mantain their ability longer than a decade within the Premier League. 15 ratings should be rare, 20 rarer still. 

Giggs, Maldini, Ibrahimovic etc. should be given as example, they naturally looked fit. Lean bodies, athletic, able to play back-to-back games with minimum recovery times and still maintain their work rates. 

In short... from what I've seen in the EPL data there is little room for the next generation of players to grow, and the current generation of 1st team players have high natural fitness which means they potentially 'over stay' their welcome. 

On the point about Rooney @ChrisNUFC, if he worked hard to stay fit - that fits the definition of the attribute. It's how well a player stays fit during injuries and when they don't train - and for "train" I'd say that is in-game training, not what happens "off camera", as it were. 

It doesn't really matter if Player A has to "work" at it each day or if Player B rocks up at pre-season training in shape without much effort - it may serve the same purpose game-wise.

Re: Aarons as one of the players with 30+ "growth", he may have that high a PA, but given his age, the most he will likely reach is in the 140s anyway. The fixed PA will have been set from where he was at 21, and in all likelihood, he hasn't continued to develop at the original rate. Same with Lamptey as well. His CA is underpinned by some of his physical attributes, like acceleration. So even if he were to improve in mental areas of his game, it's unlikely he would also maintain that acceleration into his mid-to-late 20s anyway.

But it’s ‘potential’ ability, players in-game don’t always reach it. I’m not saying that every player in their 20s should be given an increased PA, what am I saying is that there’s a generational gap in the data between, which is exaggerated by the natural fitness attribute of older high CA players staying at their prime longer. 
 

If natural fitness is worded how you mentioned for researchers then it needs some rewording, as in-game the attribute lengthens how long a player maintains their top CA ‘past their prime’. 
 

Rooney was never naturally fit. It’s like saying Gazza was naturally fit. 

2 hours ago, ChrisNUFC said:

But it’s ‘potential’ ability, players in-game don’t always reach it. I’m not saying that every player in their 20s should be given an increased PA, what am I saying is that there’s a generational gap in the data between, which is exaggerated by the natural fitness attribute of older high CA players staying at their prime longer. 
 

If natural fitness is worded how you mentioned for researchers then it needs some rewording, as in-game the attribute lengthens how long a player maintains their top CA ‘past their prime’. 
 

Rooney was never naturally fit. It’s like saying Gazza was naturally fit. 

If natural fitness is worded how you mentioned for researchers then it needs some rewording, as in-game the attribute lengthens how long a player maintains their top CA ‘past their prime’. 

In this context, Wayne Rooney's came in to the prem at around 16 years old? and left around 32 or 33? What an exceptional player he was by the way. However, it's plausible to debate whether he reached his peak by 28 or 29, given his extended tenure in the league from a very young age—around 10 or so years playing at his peak lets say.

Then to still consistently perform at the highest level week after week, month after month, and season after season—is a remarkable feat. Despite potentially passing his peak, the fact that he sustained such a high level of play for an additional 4, 5, or even 6 years beyond that phase speaks volumes about his exceptional natural fitness, wouldn't you agree?

Peaked at 26, 2011/12 season and then had a sharp decline. The ratings he had for natural fitness would have had him playing and maintain his top ability until he was well into his 30s. By the time he was 30 he wasn’t anywhere near the player he was at 28 and struggled to even make the England team. 

FM 13 he had Natural Fitness 17
FM 15 he had Natural Fitness 12 

Compare this to Ronaldo, Beckham, Maldini, Giggs, Messi, Modric, Ramos, etc. who have had a similar career journey yet maintained their ability or at the very least didn’t see such a sharp decline once they hit 30. But this is besides the point… 

The point I’m making is natural fitness ratings seem very liberal, if we’re to assume a 10 is ‘average/normal/balanced’ in regards to game engine standards. How are all these 15+ Natural Fitness ratings skewing long-term games and squad developments. it has been a common theme for many FMs where managers will stick with the older 30 year old players and not bring through the younger players. 

So when you have high end CA players with high natural fitness and a dataset which seems to have very few players between the ages of 21-28 with little growth room between what their CA and PA is (and in some cases it would appear as if there a very few who will even match the current top 10 players in terms of CA even if they do fulfil their PA) it creates a what looks like a drop in quality.

Granted, this could be accurate, but in terms of raw data it creates a gap in natural progression and development. 

I also think this is why long term saves always end up newgen heavy even a few seasons into a save, as the real life players are rarely rated as being able to develop into suitable replacements for the outgoing top 25 CA rated players in a position. 

I know in the past that -9 PA players didn’t always develop into World Class players, if they didn’t have the right coaches or mentoring, to help them improve their professionalism and work rate, for example. Judging potential is one of the hardest arts, as it is what it is… potential. Something they could be. I just think looking at the data, FM might be overly cautious with PA ratings considering all the variables which can affect development in-game (Game time, professionalism, training facilities, coaching standards, injuries, etc.).

Edited November 21, 2023 by ChrisNUFC

Brentford's Ambitions are quite out of date IMO.

For reference, the current ambitions are:

1) Expects Attacking Football - 15

2) Expects signings from lower leagues - 12

3) Expects Entertaining Football - 14

4) Prefers not to sign players over 31 - 15

 

1) is significantly out of date. Brentford since promotion have played a counterattacking style, not an attacking one. This season Thomas Frank has aimed for a slightly more possession-dominant style but has still gone low-block against the big 6. I would remove this altogether.

2) is far too strong and could be removed altogether. Since promotion, the only players Brentford have signed from the lower leagues are Keane Lewis-Potter and Ethan Brierley. Also arguably Ben Mee since he was signed from a relegated Burnley, but the game probably wouldn't count him so nor will I. Compare that total to the dozen or so total signings we have made since promotion and it's clear that that is no longer our key fishing ground, and hasn't really been since 19/20 or maybe arguably the season after when we signed Ivan Toney. Similarly if you look at the players we were linked to over the summer, they were playing for PSV, Nottingham Forest and Fiorentina. I would reduce this to about 3 or remove it altogether.

As a side note, this ambition is particularly annoying because it is poorly implemented. I have played as Brentford with a team challenging for the top 4 and been close to the board blocking all my transfers because they were so determined that I had to sign players from the Championship or below, even though unsurprisingly there are actually basically no players in the database playing in the Championship who would improve a Champions League level team. This is something that no real life team would ever do. It would be better implemented as "Sign players from domestic teams who finished below you in the league structure last season" - this would e.g. pick up the signings of Collins and Mee. At the moment it's not fit for purpose.

3) Fair enough - maybe might drop this to about 11 but it's not unreasonable.

4) Fair enough although the age could even be lowered - we're clearly mainly looking for players 24 or under at the moment.

 

On the other hand, there are several ambitions that I am surprised are not included:

Expects Strong Set Pieces - I would think this speaks for itself. I would suggest 17.

Expects Counter Attacking Football - even in games where we are possession-dominant, we still break fast and hard. Suggestion: 14.

Expects Possession Football - given Frank's desire to make us an established Prem team, would suggest maybe putting this at 5.

 

@Brentford Alan

Edited December 6, 2023 by BeeInExile
tagging in Brentford researcher

I have raised it previously but it doesn't appear to have been considered...

Harry Maguire should have the player trait: 'Argues with Officials'.

He was relentless when United captain and has continued it now even without the captaincy.

Edited November 30, 2023 by McClane29

I can't help but feel the Spurs researcher has gotten a little too carried away after a good few opening weeks for them with a manager who plays more exciting football than his predecessor. 

Cristian Romero has been given a huge boost in his attributes, CA and PA in 24.2. He was mostly a meme player in the premier league before this season, but after 3 months of the season with Spurs sat in 5th place and the 6th best defensive record in the division (also yet to play Man City, Newcastle, West Ham and Brighton) it's been decided he should have a CA of 163 and PA of 178? After a season in game he becomes the best CB in the league along with Saliba. By way of contrast Fabian Schar (147 CA) and Sven Botman (156 CA) were both performing out of their skins as part of the best defence in the league last season across a whole season, and have again been part of a better defence than Spurs in 23/24 so far. Saliba's CA is 164 as well for example, and this is a player who has proven himself to be elite over the course of last season and this season. It seems obscene for Romero, a player known mostly for bad tackles and getting sent off, to receive this boost to his attributes after such a short period. I would suggest reducing his CA and PA by 15 each would be appropriate along with most weighted attributes to suit. 

Pape Matar Sarr has been given a fixed PA of 172. This is pretty much Rodri-level ability and would make him one of the best midfielders in the league and a surefire world class player. He barely played last season and has around 800 minutes this season where he's been good but not standout in a team that is only 5th in the premier league. I think -85 would be more appropriate and this would make him a guaranteed good PL potential player at least, with the possibility of being world class in some saves. 

Yves Bissouma is rated as the best DM in the Premier League after Declan Rice and Rodri. This was actually in the initial data for FM24 iirc and so was based on a few weeks of the season. It's a better CA than Partey, Casemiro, Moises Caicedo who were all fantastic last season; and wildly better than the likes of Luiz and Kamara at Villa who've had just as good seasons so far. Again this seems highly irregular. He couldn't get a game last season and was poor when he did appear.

Surely these players should have to show form for more than a few weeks before they're made into world class talents on the game?

5 hours ago, Smallen said:

I can't help but feel the Spurs researcher has gotten a little too carried away after a good few opening weeks for them with a manager who plays more exciting football than his predecessor. 

Cristian Romero has been given a huge boost in his attributes, CA and PA in 24.2. He was mostly a meme player in the premier league before this season, but after 3 months of the season with Spurs sat in 5th place and the 6th best defensive record in the division (also yet to play Man City, Newcastle, West Ham and Brighton) it's been decided he should have a CA of 163 and PA of 178? After a season in game he becomes the best CB in the league along with Saliba. By way of contrast Fabian Schar (147 CA) and Sven Botman (156 CA) were both performing out of their skins as part of the best defence in the league last season across a whole season, and have again been part of a better defence than Spurs in 23/24 so far. Saliba's CA is 164 as well for example, and this is a player who has proven himself to be elite over the course of last season and this season. It seems obscene for Romero, a player known mostly for bad tackles and getting sent off, to receive this boost to his attributes after such a short period. I would suggest reducing his CA and PA by 15 each would be appropriate along with most weighted attributes to suit. 

Pape Matar Sarr has been given a fixed PA of 172. This is pretty much Rodri-level ability and would make him one of the best midfielders in the league and a surefire world class player. He barely played last season and has around 800 minutes this season where he's been good but not standout in a team that is only 5th in the premier league. I think -85 would be more appropriate and this would make him a guaranteed good PL potential player at least, with the possibility of being world class in some saves. 

Yves Bissouma is rated as the best DM in the Premier League after Declan Rice and Rodri. This was actually in the initial data for FM24 iirc and so was based on a few weeks of the season. It's a better CA than Partey, Casemiro, Moises Caicedo who were all fantastic last season; and wildly better than the likes of Luiz and Kamara at Villa who've had just as good seasons so far. Again this seems highly irregular. He couldn't get a game last season and was poor when he did appear.

Surely these players should have to show form for more than a few weeks before they're made into world class talents on the game?

In addition to the above, I would also question some of the PAs that have been handed out. A -95 for a player who has played 0 minutes of men's football and no international football higher than U17s when every other -95 player in the DB is a regular for the first team of their club and/or country. There is no other English player with a random PA that high, it's far too early to be claiming him to be the best player England could produce when he's not shown anything above his own age group internationally or above what is widely regarded as an unfit for purpose PL U21s competition in England.  There's also 7 -85 players, only Ajax have more and they're the joint highest in England (Chelsea the other). If everything works out, they've almost got a full 11 of potentially world class level players of whom collectively have less than 100 games of senior football and 74 of those are from one player. Don't get me wrong, a number of those may be perfectly justifiable but on paper at the moment it sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the DB and other players of similar ages who are already playing first team football at a high level. 

3 hours ago, metal_guitarist said:

In addition to the above, I would also question some of the PAs that have been handed out. A -95 for a player who has played 0 minutes of men's football and no international football higher than U17s when every other -95 player in the DB is a regular for the first team of their club and/or country. There is no other English player with a random PA that high, it's far too early to be claiming him to be the best player England could produce when he's not shown anything above his own age group internationally or above what is widely regarded as an unfit for purpose PL U21s competition in England.  There's also 7 -85 players, only Ajax have more and they're the joint highest in England (Chelsea the other). If everything works out, they've almost got a full 11 of potentially world class level players of whom collectively have less than 100 games of senior football and 74 of those are from one player. Don't get me wrong, a number of those may be perfectly justifiable but on paper at the moment it sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the DB and other players of similar ages who are already playing first team football at a high level. 

Also to add on top of that with Jamie Donley having an injury proneness of 1 at only 18 seems a bit odd.

Has no mental traits filled in at all yet has a 1 for that already. I'd understand a minus rating so it's a random low number if he has barely ever been injured for academy sides but having set it at 1 for an 18 year old seems very premature. 

If the -95 was a -9 I  don't think anyone would bat an eyelid, both he and the two other English -9s from that age group are fantastic young talents who are head and shoulders above their peers and have shown it both domestically and internationally in their own age groups and U21s. The problem is when you elevate him to the -95 bracket, he hasn't done anywhere near enough compared to the others rated with the same PA. Most of those have been playing first team football since they were 15 years old and consistently showcase their ability on the biggest stages whereas these 3 at 15 years old were either making U21s debuts or in one case a PL debut purely as a sweetener for a contract offer and to ensure the club received more than the standard compensation if they did leave. We likely just have different standards about what constitutes enough for a -95 but for me when it comes to 15-18 year olds, unless they're playing first team football already I think it's too high. If they were that good, they would be impacting the first team already because you're talking about the potential to be the best player in the world and when you look at the top players - Ronaldo, Messi, Bellingham etc, they were already playing mens football regularly by then.