5-3-2 - Let's get Libero

Hi All,

My name is Seb and I’m fairly new to this forum however I’m not new to Football Manager. I have played the game since CM 01/02 and since then I’ve never let go of it completely. Most of my playing time consisted of finding the new Messi/Ronaldo or in that time the new Bergkamp/Zidane.

Anyway since they have made the understanding and making of tactics a bit easier in the latest editions of football manager I began to develop an interest in that part of the game. I must confess it was more out of frustration. “How can I have all Five Star players and lose to this pathetic club. I even had 6 clear cut chances and 70% possession!” So my initial reaction was to complain about the game and search on the internet for support so we could buy some pitchforks together. And man I must say there is a lot of support to find!

But what I also found where lots of people dismissing these “bugs” and saying: “listen, you played with a ball winning defender in your most important area. Yes their team was statistically worse but you let their playmaker feel like he was in heaven and I think you where the sole reason for the transfer to Roma because of the game he played against you. Actually he should thank you with millions or at least make you his agent for the impressive work you’ve done for him.”

And then I thought, I want to understand this game and learn the logic behind it so I can RULE THE WORLD… or at least not finish last with a club the media expected to win the league. So I’ve read the topics here on this forum and learned a lot about the engine and the ways of football but that’s not what this post is about.

Although I want to make an exception in reminding everyone that the work of the late SFraser is still relevant and it reads with much enjoyment. I wasn’t a member of this forum when he was around but maybe, and this is just an idea, sticky his tactics forum posts in one thread on this page would do well for beginners (and experienced tacticians). I found the joy in his writing about the game and his believe in his squad so refreshing.

So let me finally begin with the reason I made this thread. It’s about 5-3-2. That’s it. I would like to discuss this tactic and more so make it viable in the game. And let me say on forehand, I don’t know if it’s viable at this moment simply because I haven’t tried it yet in the way I have the formation in my head. I want this thread to be a discussion about the tactic and I would like to hear your input related to the tactic.

So what’s the kind of football I want to play?

Good question, I’m thinking of a controlling style of football where the team can use the space they’ve got and where we leave the opposition feel like they had no chance. So not in the way of reaching 90% possession (although that would be nice it’s not the main goal of the team) but more in the way of Blitzkriegin' them. Ah the Germans and their lovely words. Let me throw another one at you: Gegenpressing. A team I think I can relate to in terms of this would be Borussia Dortmund. Keep in mind I’m not trying to replicate this team, it’s more their match concept I can relate to.

Tell me the positions and roles please?

Aye Cap! Let’s do that in the form of a picture:

Oh yes baby! A Libero!

Well as you can see the formation isn’t that of a typical 5-3-2 with 3 centre backs. Let me explain the concept behind this.

Libero – This man (let’s call him Franz) should make use of the space in front of the defence and should work as a regista on the ball. Creating chances and keeping the pressure on the enemy lines. In terms of defending I hope to call him Jaap Stam.

Wing Backs – I’m a bit in doubt if I should use Wing Backs or Complete Wing Backs. My choice to use the Wing backs is that I want them to use the space in the wide areas as not so much cut inside and go for a magic power shot that ends at the other corner flag.

Front Three – Here I’m also in doubt. I’m like the Trequartista role but I think it’s more a supporting-role in terms of attacking and a now I take my rest-role in terms of defending. Maybe I should switch the position of the Trequartista to the front instead of the Deep-Lying Forward. I was also thinking of use a Defensive Forward instead of a Deep lying Forward to put pressure on their defence earlier.

What attributes do you think the positions will need to have?

Wow you are asking all the right questions! Well let me start off with the attributes I think the whole team needs to have to make it work.

These attributes all speak for themselves. I think most of us will rate them quite highly in the aspect of importance.

Role

If attributes are named in the Team attributes and in the Role attributes you can think of it as an extra meaning for that role or factor x2.

Conclusions

Well to sum it all up.

Mentality – Control

Fluidity – Balanced (at this point of time)

Tactic – 5-3-2

Team Instructions – Work ball in the box, Drill crosses, Shorter passing, Hassle opponents.

Final words

Like I said in the beginning, I want this thread to be a discussion about the tactic and the system. Please let me know your input and thoughts. I don’t consider myself to be “pro” in this game and I would love to hear what you guys think about this.

Cheers! Seb

I'm pretty sure I've read on here before that the Libero role in-game doesn't work the way it's supposed to and as such, nobody has yet made it really work as it should.

I've personally also had very good luck with my Cetla Vigo team using a CF(S) and AF(A) pairing. The CF(S) gets the ball to the AF(A) who scores and he scores his own goals as well. Granted, CFs are harder to find than DLFs, but I think it's worth it. Also - the CF(S) is the better player of the pair.

Nice opening post. I'll be interested to see some analysis of what you want the Libero to do, and whether you are actually able to achieve it. I'm part of a broader collection of people who don't think that the Role works as I would like, but I haven't taken much time this year to look at it in detail.

Thank you for the interest in the thread!

I'm pretty sure I've read on here before that the Libero role in-game doesn't work the way it's supposed to and as such, nobody has yet made it really work as it should.

I've personally also had very good luck with my Cetla Vigo team using a CF(S) and AF(A) pairing. The CF(S) gets the ball to the AF(A) who scores and he scores his own goals as well. Granted, CFs are harder to find than DLFs, but I think it's worth it. Also - the CF(S) is the better player of the pair.

Well that would be disappointing to see. It's weird that they have a role in the game since for ever? and the role isn't working as intended. I took your advice in changing the DLF into a CF to make a better pair and so far I think your were right about it!

Nice opening post. I'll be interested to see some analysis of what you want the Libero to do, and whether you are actually able to achieve it. I'm part of a broader collection of people who don't think that the Role works as I would like, but I haven't taken much time this year to look at it in detail.

Thank you! My initial idea was to play a few games, see what the Libero can do and then make an analysis of it so I can tell what I expect from him. When you say you are part of a broader collection of people who think the role doesn't work as intended, does that mean people have tried it and were simply disappointed or just expected other results. I'm playing FM2014, can you recall any threads about the libero in that version of fm?

First match

The first match i played with this formation was a friendly version PSV Eindhoven. Beforehand my expectation was that PSV would be the dominating team and well they probably would win. I know its a friendly and friendlies often don't play as a normal competition game, but hey the players still needed to learn their roles and their new positions.

My Libero for the season will be this guy: Ribair Rodriguez

I think he will have the qualities to play the role and he is Uruguayan which is a big plus in the Uruguayan competition as you are limited in the use of Foreign player. I like his Bravery and his Strength and he is rated a star player in the league.

I've watch the whole match itself in 2D mode. My intention was to watch the first 2 matches in 2D mode to get an idea of the formation itself and the foundation of it. I forgot to switch to the English language so I've composed a screen for you guys in English. If you are curious at the screenshots them self, by all means ask for them.

Analysis

The result, spot on! I was very happy with the performance and the team adjusting to the new roles and positions. As you can see 6 clear cut chances should be enough in every game to win it.

I was less content with the performance of my Libero. Although defensive he was great I've never seen him run past the two center backs of mine.

An example of this was the first goal. In the first screenshot the ball is played to the T10. The rest of the attack exists of some short passing work with a lower tempo. Good Good. The only thing disappointing was the end position of the libero. He managed to get before the 2 centre backs, but hot diggity if he had a smaller boot size he still would be one the same line. I expect more from him in attacking sense. Now its just a centre back on cover duty with an active player instruction of more risky passes

Conclusion

I want to see more of the Libero in the attacking aspect of the game. Otherwise I will need to adjust some things. An option I'm thinking about is the Regista role or maybe a Ball playing defender both with active player instructions. I would love to hear your input about this.

Cheers! Seb

Thank you! My initial idea was to play a few games, see what the Libero can do and then make an analysis of it so I can tell what I expect from him. When you say you are part of a broader collection of people who think the role doesn't work as intended, does that mean people have tried it and were simply disappointed or just expected other results. I'm playing FM2014, can you recall any threads about the libero in that version of fm?

It's a known fact that a libero doesn't attack even if you created the perfect player with the perfect attributes and PPM's. It's like he hits an invisible wall after a certain point and will stop his run dead in his tracks and not push on. He will basically release the ball and drop back. In there words he will never be anything more than a sweeper rather than a libero. I'm one of the people who always use a libero and often wrote about it on here but I couldn't do that this year as the role actually took a backward step in terms of what it should do.

It's a known fact that a libero doesn't attack even if you created the perfect player with the perfect attributes and PPM's. It's like he hits an invisible wall after a certain point and will stop his run dead in his tracks and not push on. He will basically release the ball and drop back. In there words he will never be anything more than a sweeper rather than a libero. I'm one of the people who always use a libero and often wrote about it on here but I couldn't do that this year as the role actually took a backward step in terms of what it should do.

I'm working on an update of this thread and so far I would have to say you guys where right. The role doesn't perform as it should but I did found some things I would like to write about in the next update:). Since you are a moderator, is there any way I could hide big images in a spoiler?

Cheers, Seb

I've experimented with the libero a little in this version, and my opinion differs slightly from the consensus, but only slightly. Firstly, if you want him to get forward you must put him on attack duty. On support duty he is essentially a free man on defense and a BPD on offense; he'll have more creative freedom and therefore may be more proactive on defense than a sweeper depending on attributes and team strategy (I see the sweeper as a spare man, a libero as a "free man"), but beyond that he'll be a sweeper who has more license with the ball.

On attack duty I regularly see him get forward, though usually only as far as the defensive midfield stratum. I have seen a few charges forward, but not many. I will repeat, though, that he DOES consistently get forward of the centerbacks. I'm an American and didn't watch a soccer-- er... football-- match until I studied abroad in Germany during Euro '96, and I wasn't able to regularly watch high level football until it became more available here in the mid-2000s, so aside from Sammer's pinnacle performance I totally missed the libero's golden age. I therefore will acknowledge that I may not know what to look for. That said, though, I've watched a lot of old matches on youtube with famous liberi (Beckenbauer and Sammer of course, but also folks like Scirea, Stielike, and Augenthaler), and from what I've seen in a rather limited sample it seems like these guys didn't generally get much farther forward than where the Libero gets in FM. Guys like Beckenbauer and Stielike sometimes made dribbling forays from back to front but others not so much (and you can actually get those from a libero on FM if you have someone with the right skills and click "dribble more" PI; there's a youtube video floating around where someone put Messi at Libero and you see that sort of thing, and I've seen similar by putting dribbling attacking midfielders there).

That's not to say the libero role works like it should, though. The problem, as I see it, is two-fold: positional dynamism and teammate behavior.

Firstly, the positional problem of the attacking libero lies less in how far forward he gets, and more with how much he moves laterally. The libero should behave more like a regista once in possession, or at the very least like a DLP. His off the ball movement, however, is limited almost exclusively to a narrow patch in the middle of the pitch regardless of what's going on around him. He does very little to make himself available by creating a better angle for a pass. Moreover, if you have a player in the defensive midfield, even a central midfielder on a defend duty, the libero too often ends up standing too close to him. This can sometimes work if you have a limited ballwinner there who you just want to drop the ball off to a creative libero standing next to him, but mostly it creates poor spacing and is unhelpful. You really have to have roles/duties in those strata that will clear out of that space to make way for the libero, because the match engine is such that they won't adjust to each other. That leads me to the other problem...

A big problem with the libero role is not just with the behavior of the role itself, but with how the other players interact with it. In addition to the positional challenges mentioned above, most of the players seem to just be reluctant to pass the darn ball to the libero. Generally, unless he is the only open option, any role/duty with any amount of creative freedom or high-ish mentality will resist passing the ball back to the libero unless he is the only open player available. This problem will be exacerbated by an opposing AMC or striker dropping back to mark him, as the lack of dynamism (mentioned above) will mean he's almost assuredly not going to have any space to work it-- which of course was the whole point of the libero to begin with. I've seen some interesting stuff on FM14 with a halfback and libero interchanging positions to create confusion and open up space, but I've not tried it on 15.

To sum up, there will be times where you will see the kinds of things you want to see from your libero-attack, but only if you play someone there with the exceptional qualities to make it work. And because of the issues I've detailed here, he is unlikely to get enough touches (probably no more than 50/match or so) to really make putting a player of such exceptional quality there. Unless your team is just loaded with talent, you'll probably end up thinking such a player would be better utilized higher up the pitch.

Firstly' date=' the positional problem of the attacking libero lies less in how far forward he gets, and more with how much he moves laterally. The libero should behave more like a regista once in possession, or at the very least like a DLP. His off the ball movement, however, is limited almost exclusively to a narrow patch in the middle of the pitch regardless of what's going on around him. He does very little to make himself available by creating a better angle for a pass.[/quote']

Great first post and a nice name!

This is actually one of the ways I "fixed" the problem. I simply put my intended Libero in the Regista role and the attacking side of the role Libero is fulfilled. And I'm aware that it is only 1/2 of the role the Libero should fulfill but I couldn't make it work. Yes I could make him move more forward, even sideways but same as you stated, they simply wouldn't give him the ball. In the next update (think i'll finish it tonight) I have some screens and stats that underline this point.

Cheers, Seb

Great first post and a nice name!

This is actually one of the ways I "fixed" the problem. I simply put my intended Libero in the Regista role and the attacking side of the role Libero is fulfilled. And I'm aware that it is only 1/2 of the role the Libero should fulfill but I couldn't make it work. Yes I could make him move more forward, even sideways but same as you stated, they simply wouldn't give him the ball. In the next update (think i'll finish it tonight) I have some screens and stats that underline this point.

Cheers, Seb

Any update?

Want to realy try libero and get it to wokr.

I'm pretty sure I've read on here before that the Libero role in-game doesn't work the way it's supposed to and as such, nobody has yet made it really work as it should.

This isn't true. It works as it should, you just have to have the right kind of player in the role and you need the right kind of roles around him.

Look at the OP's setup, he should get what he's looking for with the Libero (on attack duty) stepping forward when in possession, because the only other playmaker in the side is in the AMC strata. A lot of people make the mistake of putting play makers in the DM/CM strata with a Libero, and then he doesn't venture forward. *He* needs to be the playmaker.

I've had my Libero end up making a few runs in the box during possession and even taking some long shots. You need the right kind of players around him for him to do his thing. It's weird, but it's doable.

Man, now I'm going to go back to my Libero save and work on it some more. I tend to think how deep your line is plays a factor as well.

I've just played a couple of matches with a libero- control strategy, and he did a great job as a sweeper, but really did not move forward into the midfield at all. He stayed pretty much in line with the two centerbacks on all but a couple of occasions where he edged up just a bit. Attack duty or no, the libero ought to be pushing up more in possession especially once the plays moves into the other half. It may be possible to get him working with some weird combination of roles, players, instructions, match situations etc. but as it stands, it doesn't really work as advertised in terms of movement.

I've just played a couple of matches with a libero- control strategy, and he did a great job as a sweeper, but really did not move forward into the midfield at all. He stayed pretty much in line with the two centerbacks on all but a couple of occasions where he edged up just a bit. Attack duty or no, the libero ought to be pushing up more in possession especially once the plays moves into the other half. It may be possible to get him working with some weird combination of roles, players, instructions, match situations etc. but as it stands, it doesn't really work as advertised in terms of movement.

What does your midfield role setup look like?

for mine I simply used a CM-D and CM-A and he would often end up being the tip of a triangle with the CBs. As mentioned, additional playmakers ahead of him can cause him not to venture forward. I have an idea I'm going to try when I get home, freeing up everything in front and seeing what we can get out it, but what you have in front of the libero also matters quite a bit.

i know that it might be a weird suggestion, but maybe the libero problem is caused due to his "love" towards his side men (CB's). Maybe not using any CB's at all, could get him furhter up the pitch.

Lets say for example:

----AF----DLF----

------------------

----CM----CM----

----HB-DM-HB----

WB------------WB

-------Lib-------

could be worth a try

Great OP and really interesting idea.

Just one question - what version of the game are you playing on? From your images it looks like it's a few years old (e.g. creativity attribute rather than vision)

What does your midfield role setup look like?

for mine I simply used a CM-D and CM-A and he would often end up being the tip of a triangle with the CBs. As mentioned, additional playmakers ahead of him can cause him not to venture forward. I have an idea I'm going to try when I get home, freeing up everything in front and seeing what we can get out it, but what you have in front of the libero also matters quite a bit.

I had a 5-2-1-2 going there, midfielders were a CM(S) and BBM (S). The midfield was pushing up to the edges of the area but the libero on a support duty pretty much camped at the halfway line, so I ended up with a flat back three CD looking arrangement most of the times in possession. I believe you that you can get it work, but it shouldn't require some sort of arcane role/duty/formation setup to do so

Hah, it doesn't. It just depends on what you're trying to get out of it in regards to your formation.

My setup before was

-------------LA----

CWBA--CBC--CBC--CWBA

-----------------------------

--------CMD---CMA

--------APA

------------AF-----T

I think later I'm going to try this:

-------------LA----

CWBA--CBC--CBC--CWBA

-------------HB-------------

WMS-----------------WMS

-------------SS------------

------------DLFS

And play narrower and instruct the WMs to sit narrower

Well he is supposed to, according to the role, description, and everything we know of the libero, move forward to support the midfield in the attack, not act as a third centerback, so in that respect, the role is not working correctly. Whatever I set up in front of him he should endeavor to play like a libero and not a central defender regardless of whether the setup is good or not.