Working out roles for Van Gaal's 4-1-4-1.

As we all probably know by now, Van Gaal appears to have found a formation and style of play that works for the current Manchester United crop of players. A 4-1-4-1 formation that I have been curious about setting up in FM15. I haven't had the chance to play FM for a while now, the joys of going back to school at an older age (shh!) but I was hoping to get a discussion going on the way he has set the team up and if it is possible to replicate the style of play he has.

For me, he is using a 4-1-4-1 template, it looks that way in defence anyway but seems to shift to a 4-4-2 or a lop-sided 4-1-2-1-2 (with Mata in the AM slot at times, though it depends on the roaming around he does.)

To start with, I'm split between deciding on a control or a counter set up, because the passing style in both attack and defence appears to be about building out from the back. My first thought is to go with Counter and modify the team instructions to negate this. But you could also make a case for doing the same with Control. What also makes it difficult for me to decide is that United press high but drop deep, with almost a man-to-man marking system, even though really they appear to be targeting the possessor of the ball and the smaller spaces around him, cutting off his routes of play so that the pressure isn't simply one-dimensional.

Sadly, my expertise on those matters aren't very good so I invite any responses to how to create this particular bit of play.

On the other hand, I think I can nail down some of the roles in the formation they use; Assuming they do a 4-1-4-1 here is how I think they set up;

Goalkeeper: Sweeper Keeper / Defend (or Support)

De Gea has been getting used in this role, usually to sweep forward and clear or defend any through balls that get between the two centrebacks. His use of the ball however, is focused on building from the back, so he passes short, usually to the centrebacks but will still attempt the odd counter attacking ball, including going long if he has no option to.

Right Back: Wing Back / Support (or defend)

This one is tricky, Valencia plays here and I'm almost tempted to say he's more a limited full back, but he does get forward, overlapping at times and springing crosses into the box. The problem for me here is identifying the ROLE as opposed to Valencia's limitations, I personally think he's an awful full back, his defensive positioning is a liability, his dribbling one-dimensional, his vision non-existent, yet when he does try and do something special, and it is a rarity, he does have the ability to pull it off.

I think, next season when Van Gaal goes shopping this position will be a priority and we'll be seeing a more attacking wing-back role to compensate for Mata further up, or a more defensive role to cover for him. That's just pure speculation though.

A case could be made to use the full back role here.

Left Back: Full back / Support (leaning towards attack)

Depending on who is being played here, Blind appears to be a more support option while Luke Shaw with his pace is a more attacking overlapping option.

Centre Backs: CB / Defend (both)

Smalling and Jones are the usual duo, I'm not convinced they're doing a stopper/cover split here, and I'm not convinced they're ball playing defenders. Their aim appears to be to keep the ball grounded and get it to the DM slot. On that note, Van Gaal, like Ferguson, appears to encourage his centre backs to run with the ball through the centre if there aren't any passing options, especially if the opposition striker lets them get away and into the midfield where the midfielders are more concerned with marking their own men. I'd say that's a PPM possibly. Yet he is also happy to use the goalkeeper as an outlet and appears to want his CB's to pass back when it is too dangerous to charge blindly through the middle.

Defensive Midfield: Deep Lying Playmaker / Defend

The Carrick role, a DLP/D, relying on positioning to do the defensive side of things and pinging the ball forward when need be.

Right Midfield: Wide Playmaker / Attack

The Mata role, cuts inside with the ball quite often, can end up in the middle in an AMC slot when attacking. Also roams from position, usually getting on the other side of the pitch without actually swapping with another player. (Roam from position is already active in this role). He contributes to defence, and I don't think he starts off in the AM slots personally.

Central Midfield Right: Roaming Playmaker / Support

The Herrera role, I actually had a good debate with someone about this role and whether he's strictly a RP or a Box to Box midfielder. My view is he is dropping back into defence and getting forward but usually camping around the penalty box, he appears to be the roaming link that is there as an outlet for the pass. But there is a good case for using him as the B2B I think.

Central Midfield Left: Centre Midfield / Attack

Fellaini. I'm not sure CM/A is actually the more suitable role for him, but he is the furthest forward of the midfielders, often playing as a second striker at times, but coming back to defend when needed. Herrera is deeper and usually defending more than Fellaini is (from what I've seen), that doesn't mean he doesn't defend but it seems he's more of an attacking outlet. If there was a Target Man role for the middle of the pitch I would consider using that. I'm not sure putting him up in the striker position as a TM/S and hoping he drops deep enough would work... It might do?

Left Midfield: Winger / Support - Attack

Ashley Young's position. I know he's seen as an inside forward, but I'm not convinced he operates as one in this formation. Rather he gets up high, and cuts onto his right foot but is usually stalking the wide positions and playing off Fellaini where needed. I don't think he's cutting into the middle as much as an IF does. A possible way to replicate his style though is the Winger role with the 'cuts inside' PPM. As for support/attack, that usually depends on who is playing behind him, but I thought for balance a support duty makes sense.

Forward: False 9 / Deep Lying Forward / Complete Forward on Support.

The Rooney role, either works, a Complete forward or a DLF seems to be the main one, as he offers a lot of movement, drops deep where needed and leads the line at other times.

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Any other points to consider?

Team Instructions;

Retain Possession,

Play out of defence.

Those two seem to me to be a given, especially in a more defensive mentality. The defence don't hoof it unless they're out of options, and the team prioritise keeping the ball but don't strictly keep themselves tied down to short passing (Your mileage may vary on this interpretion though).

Work ball into the box seems like another sentiment, encouraging the team to remain patient and wait for the opening rather than forcing the issue.

As mentioned at the start, I'm not too familiar with setting up a pressing game, I was hoping someone might shed some light on how to replicate the United pressing game, so I can't offer much on that aspect.

That's what I've thought about so far, does anyone have any thoughts? Disagreements on whether it looks like it would match the current United style of play? Role differences you might consider?

They try to compress the space as much as possible, so maybe push much higher up with close down more?

This is a reasonable article exploring United's tactical evolution, might help:

http://thefalse9.com/2015/03/louis-van-gaals-new-look-4-1-4-1-formation-for-manchester-united.html

My 4-1-4-1

http://www.4shared.com/file/ktF-6l5Rba/4-1-4-1_van_Gaal_7E891BDE-D8ED.html

One of the things I completely agree with, particularly on Saturday against Chelsea, is how often Paddy McNair got forward from CB, a trait that I have read Van Gaal has used regularly in the past. McNair must have found himself with two or three long rang efforts over the weekend and as Drogba wasn't particularly interested in closing down high up the pitch, Van Gaal seemed happy for McNair to charge forward with the ball. Maybe this is more of PPM thing as you said, but I always got the impression Phil Jones could be suited to this sort of role when the opposition sets up in a similar fashion to how Chelsea did.

Also an idea for Fellaini. I had a bit of success with him as a withdrawn target man-come-engache on FM14. I made sure he had the ST dropping deep and AML very close to him, playing him at AMCL. Ball-playing CB's will attempt slightly longer ranged passes when the are on so that might also be worth considering. I'd also advise more direct passing from Fellaini in this role, as you don't want him winning the ball and laying it back to Carrick (for example) as he is often looking to spark goalscoring opportunities after he has control balls aimed at him.

The midfield 3 of Carrick/Fellani/Herrara would be dlp d, b2b and ap a.

You should also check out the mnf-segment g. Nev did on united last weekend. Another thing: both mata and fellaini moves into channels all the time, and fellaini doesn't roam. So Ramdeuter for mata, cm-a with moves into channels and dribble less for fellaini Rooney is deffo a dlf, maybe with attacking duty so he keeps the defenders busy. Young is a w-s , blind fb-a and valencia wb-s. Van Gaal mentality is in the lower echeleons. He does not like uneccessary risk-taking, so counter would be a good fiT. Every player in his team has a specific role to play, so very structured seems like the best option. And Herrera is a rpm-s. There is No doubt about that.

They try to compress the space as much as possible, so maybe push much higher up with close down more?

Hmm, that makes sense.

This is a reasonable article exploring United's tactical evolution, might help:

http://thefalse9.com/2015/03/louis-van-gaals-new-look-4-1-4-1-formation-for-manchester-united.html

Interesting, the 4-1-3-2 model anyway. I'd wondered if Fellaini was being played in the AMCL area, it's something to consider anyway.

One of the things I completely agree with, particularly on Saturday against Chelsea, is how often Paddy McNair got forward from CB, a trait that I have read Van Gaal has used regularly in the past. McNair must have found himself with two or three long rang efforts over the weekend and as Drogba wasn't particularly interested in closing down high up the pitch, Van Gaal seemed happy for McNair to charge forward with the ball. Maybe this is more of PPM thing as you said, but I always got the impression Phil Jones could be suited to this sort of role when the opposition sets up in a similar fashion to how Chelsea did.

Also an idea for Fellaini. I had a bit of success with him as a withdrawn target man-come-engache on FM14. I made sure he had the ST dropping deep and AML very close to him, playing him at AMCL. Ball-playing CB's will attempt slightly longer ranged passes when the are on so that might also be worth considering. I'd also advise more direct passing from Fellaini in this role, as you don't want him winning the ball and laying it back to Carrick (for example) as he is often looking to spark goalscoring opportunities after he has control balls aimed at him.

Indeed, Smalling is the other one who does these mini-charges as well in the last few games. The Fellaini role is one I've struggled to implement, but an AMCL position and role is tempting.

The midfield 3 of Carrick/Fellani/Herrara would be dlp d, b2b and ap a.

Box 2 Box for Herrera or Fellaini do you mean?

You should also check out the mnf-segment g. Nev did on united last weekend. Another thing: both mata and fellaini moves into channels all the time, and fellaini doesn't roam. So Ramdeuter for mata, cm-a with moves into channels and dribble less for fellaini Rooney is deffo a dlf, maybe with attacking duty so he keeps the defenders busy. Young is a w-s , blind fb-a and valencia wb-s. Van Gaal mentality is in the lower echeleons. He does not like uneccessary risk-taking, so counter would be a good fiT. Every player in his team has a specific role to play, so very structured seems like the best option. And Herrera is a rpm-s. There is No doubt about that.

I'll have to youtube that with subtitles (I'm deaf). The reason I went with a WP rather than a Raumdeuter, was for the lower starting position for Mata and the defensive duties he is encouraged to do when necessary. I find the Raum isn't too concerned with getting back.

Counter / (very) structured seems interesting, I would hazard a guess, stealing from WWFAN's Barcelona thread that a counter, drop deeper (or push higher), hassle opponents might replicate the high press and the retreat of the players into the defensive block.

Some interesting thoughts, keep them coming.

Herrera is BBM(S); Fellaini is more CM(A). Advanced playmakers on attack duty tend to dribble more and attempt riskier passes – this is not Fellaini. I'd also add PIs to make both move into channels with the WM(A) and DLF(S) moving into their spaces.

I do not know but I've been reading up on strikerless' article on withdrawn target man. Maybe Fellani can be that withdrawn target man in LvGs tactic?? So something like

Standard/Very Fluid

SK

CWB (s)-CB-BPD-FB

DLP (d)

WP(a)-RP------WM(a)

-----------W/DTM-----

--------F9(s)----------

TIs:

Retain Possession

Play Out Of Defense

Pass Into Space

Drilled (or Float(??)) Crosses

Look For Overlap

Play Wider

Higher Tempo

Push Higher Up

PIs(s)

WM - Cut Inside with Ball, Sit Narrower

can't think of anything else

I have played 3 seasons with Manchester United playing a 4-1-4-1. It does have 2 amc players, but how the tactic plays in the ME does replicate much more fluidity that you see in real life that you cannot achieve with a 2 mc 4141.

Control - Fluid

There's not really much, if any, difference between how MC and AMC in the same role operate in the attacking phase, especially in terms of fluidity of movement.

Here's your tactic in the attacking phase:

Here's the same tactic with the entire midfield dropped back one stratum (so AMLR to MLR, AMC to MC):

And here's Di Maria scoring a beauty quickly after everyone dropped back to the M/DM lines:

So you don't need to sacrifice an accurate defensive representation to get an accurate attacking representation.

With that said, there is a benefit to your set-up and that's the fact that you have a bunch of players ready to spring forward on the counter when defending:

But IMO, that's a fairly big step away from how United are playing right now.

Disagree with your last comment. Can't find any clip of it on youtube, but on a recent MNF Gary Neville picked out how the front 5 players ahead of Carrick, as well as full backs immediately fan out high and wide to make the pitch bigger. I see that my current set-up does that fantastically. I have tried with CM in place of AM players, but cannot see to get anywhere near the movement, attacking threat or compact nature of pressing in the team.

The whole team just drops back, and every thing just becomes so much harder to come off - movement of players in different positions ins't there, pressing, chances created.

I believe it was the Monday Night Football when Palace beat Man City, but Neville also picked out how compact Man United are without the ball, then mentioning Van Gaal's influence on Guardiola's Barcelona. Having 4 players strung out across the AM strata will only improve compactness from front to back, the CM and defensive line to push up as well.

MNF Gary Neville picked out how the front 5 players ahead of Carrick, as well as full backs immediately fan out high and wide to make the pitch bigger.

They create depth and width after winning the ball and securing control of possession. In your case, the players aren't actually dispersing, they're just not consolidating defensively in the first place. There's no actual movement, you're just bypassing transitions. Consequently, you're not actually getting the compactness you mention, as you can see in the last pic I posted. You're getting an exaggerated degree of the width/depth you want by sacrificing the defensive compactness and cutting out the need for movement in the transition to attack. The only time you're anything close to compact is when you immediately lose the ball and attempt a high press, but it's going to be the same with a vanilla 4-1-4-1 or a 4-1MC-4AM-1.

I don't doubt that you're getting different results but it's because you have a bunch of players staying in their attacking positions and with the general rigidity of your duty structure, that's going to be your best bet at breaking sides down (and to be honest, the AI isn't that great at dealing with an ultra-high reputation side that just goes all-out attack).

Having 4 players strung out across the AM strata will only improve compactness from front to back, the CM and defensive line to push up as well.

This isn't really true at all. Defensive compactness is primarily determined by a combination of d-line setting and formation, so if you only have one player in the DM/MC strata, your players will interpret that as you wanting a huge gap between your defensive and de facto midfield lines. As a result, if the initial press fails, your defensive shape often just looks like a big open circle with a dot in the middle:

This also means you never actually see the 4-5-1 midfield press executed at the halfway line. Instead, you put all your chips on a very high press which, if unsuccessful, segues to ping-pong football in a 4-1-1-4/4-2-4 shape. This can work because the AI is so painfully defensive against sides like United, but IMHO, it's not an accurate depiction of how United play.

I don't mean to be overly harsh and I usually refrain from getting into debates about interpreting tactics into FM, but I just don't want people being led to believe that you have to use some wacky formation to get good attacking movement. The ME is a lot more sophisticated than that.

The Hand of God - Was a huge fan of your World Cup Tactical Inspirations thread last year. Would you fancy writing something similar out for this United tactic? Would be great to get your thoughts on it!

Attacking down the left side should probably be an option to tick. Van Gaal seems to be overloading that area of the pitch with either Blind/Shaw, Young and even Fellaini over there, also Rooney tends to drop outside the box on that side of the pitch too. Herrera, Mata, Valencia tend to try and overload the right wing, but all the attacks predominantly come from the left.

Trying to recreate this tactic myself. Would Mata be a wide playmaker? He often drifts inside.

I do not know but I've been reading up on strikerless' article on withdrawn target man. Maybe Fellani can be that withdrawn target man in LvGs tactic?? So something like

Withdrawn target man seems suitable, I assume that's the AM/A role in the middle of the strikerless formation. That could work, especially as there should be another MC and DM there to cover the hole that might be vacated by his position.

The Hand of God - Was a huge fan of your World Cup Tactical Inspirations thread last year. Would you fancy writing something similar out for this United tactic? Would be great to get your thoughts on it!

THoG's posts are very astute and very easy to understand, I'd welcome further insight from him.

Attacking down the left side should probably be an option to tick. Van Gaal seems to be overloading that area of the pitch with either Blind/Shaw, Young and even Fellaini over there, also Rooney tends to drop outside the box on that side of the pitch too. Herrera, Mata, Valencia tend to try and overload the right wing, but all the attacks predominantly come from the left.

Trying to recreate this tactic myself. Would Mata be a wide playmaker? He often drifts inside.

Fair point about the left flank, I wonder if that will change if and when Van Gaal can get a suitable right full back though.

As for Mata, yes a Wide Playmaker, particularly one on attack duty will seek to push inside and drift in the attacking period of play but return to his wide position for the defensive period. I find the WP is particularly lethal when assigned to someone like Di Maria, who can utilise his pace to devastating effect at times when cutting across the middle of the pitch.