Any obvious flaws with my 4-1-4-1 Leeds Strategy?

Hi, Guys.

In many of my saves I play a standard 4-1-2-2-1 formation, and this has been quite successful. Now I've started again with Leeds and after reading Cleon's "Creating A Tactic - Design, Create and Maintain" I really want to try to make a strong 4-1-4-1 formation.

If this is built correctly, I guess that it provides most of the offensive strengths of the 4-1-2-2-1 and more defensive stability. A great combination in my opinion.

So to my tactic.

I like to play a pressing defense, so I have the "hassle opponents" and "push higer up" shouts ticked.

Offensively i fancy a short passing game as you also can see from my shouts.

I've tried to balance the team with roles that compliment each other and give nice movement in my team. The Wide Midfielder on the left cuts inside and I want him to act more or less as a IF. On the right side, the WM also cuts inside and leaves space for the Wing Back (Att). The midfield trio with DM(Def), CM(Att) and DLP(Supp) looks sensible to me.

Really struggling to get results.

Goal scoring i particular seems to be a big issue. I relay on goals from my CM(Att) and WM(Att), but so far we have only managed 9 goals in 11 Championship games. On the positive side we have only conceded 12.

Can any of you see any obvious problems with my tactical setup?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated

One thing I would be wary of is the ppm's of the Leeds strikers. Nearly all of them have "Tries to beat offside trap" IIRC. Not 100% sure but that might not be the best ppm for a support striker. I think Poleon and Smith are the only one's who don't have that. Smith has "plays with back to goal" which I personally think is great but he's not exactly the technical striker you probably want.

With regards to your set up:

The right winger cutting inside might get in the way of the CM(A). Might not though but worth keeping an eye on.

Look for overlap will stop your wingers getting forward as much I think. I'd consider not using that as you should still get overlaps on the right wing especially.

If you've got a solid defense but aren't scoring enough have you considered changing to 'Control' or even 'Attacking'?

is the off side a bug thing .cos a drag them back deep and still get lots off off sides , any one with pace, and he gets court, counter deep work ball, the dopey ******* is still way to forward, I've watch a match and can see he is, put them on training still rubbish, there playing defensive 41221 with wingers all the time cos i can't brake there formation .....

Well tbh 4-1-4-1 is a system designed to sit deep. Hassle Opponents is an aggressive shout, and what you will have is players trying to cover a large amount of space, by pressing up while starting from a compact system - either switch to a system that suits pressing more, or don't press as much. For what is it worth - hassle opponents is really not a great starting shout. It is an extreme shout, and ruins your defensive shape. The system itself is good - it is your instructions that are the problem.

Well tbh 4-1-4-1 is a system designed to sit deep. Hassle Opponents is an aggressive shout, and what you will have is players trying to cover a large amount of space, by pressing up while starting from a compact system - either switch to a system that suits pressing more, or don't press as much. For what is it worth - hassle opponents is really not a great starting shout. It is an extreme shout, and ruins your defensive shape. The system itself is good - it is your instructions that are the problem.

Really?? I know this keeps coming up and people have differing views, but surely Hassle Opponents is pretty much the same as setting every player to Close Down More? Surely therefore, this could be over-ridden by a Hold Position/Close Down Less PI for relevant players?

Hassle Opponents is a setting that divides opinion.

I agree with llama3 that a formation like a 4-1-4-1 doesn't lend itself to Pressing.

For me, Pressing is most effective when you have players in the AMC line immediately pressurising the AI DC and DM lines; 4-2-3-1 is a good system as an example.

With a 4-1-4-1, the MC line players by default have more ground to cover to make the initial contact with the AI, by which time the pass could have been made into a space vacated by the pressing MC line player.

With regard to whether or not it is a great starting shout, I'm inclined to believe that there's no harm in doing so, as long as you have a suitably hard working and athletic squad, and are aware of its risks.

Ha... a team of Hendersons then

I think the 4-1-4-1 is one of the better formations for using hassle opponents as you have the numbers advantage in midfield and the protection of a DMC of some kind. Against other shapes you aren't really over stretching when being aggressive because the other teams players should all be in a simliar area anyway so its not like you have players having to make up or cover massive amounts of space. If you play against a 4-4-2 the midfield will be all next to each other, if you play against the 4-2-3-1 then you are next to the MC's and the wide players will deal with any advancing fullbacks with ease and provide cover for your own fullback if needs be. If playing against a 4-5-1/4-3-3 then the same applies and so on.

It's not like the MC's are going to be charging the oppositions DC's. So I'm not sure why people think in this shape (4-1-4-1) that the MC's have more ground to make up. The only time this is true is if you play against a 2DMC midfield and even then the space and gap isn't that big. For me the 4-1-4-1 is one of the more balanced shapes there is, so closing down heavily can work a treat as you can make it shape into any number of shapes.

So I'm not sure why people think in this shape (4-1-4-1) that the MC's have more ground to make up.

My reasoning is based on my current shape; I'm using a deep, narrow 4-2-3-1.

When the AI has the ball in its own half, whether set to take a goal kick or a throw in or set piece, my AMC players and striker are all in and around the space between the DC and MC line. Even though this isn't in itself applying pressure in the "Pressing" sense, it is restricting passing options for the AI, and that's why I personally feel that it is easier to apply general pressure with AMC line players than MCs.

If the AI has the ball in open play deep in their own half, the same quartet is right in the face of the defenders in particular, and it is this sort of pressing that is easier to achieve if the players are positioned high by default. Of course, this sort of Pressing opens itself up to a countering, so it's a question of balance as usual.

My reasoning is based on my current shape; I'm using a deep, narrow 4-2-3-1.

When the AI has the ball in its own half, whether set to take a goal kick or a throw in or set piece, my AMC players and striker are all in and around the space between the DC and MC line. Even though this isn't in itself applying pressure in the "Pressing" sense, it is restricting passing options for the AI, and that's why I personally feel that it is easier to apply general pressure with AMC line players than MCs.

If the AI has the ball in open play deep in their own half, the same quartet is right in the face of the defenders in particular, and it is this sort of pressing that is easier to achieve if the players are positioned high by default. Of course, this sort of Pressing opens itself up to a countering, so it's a question of balance as usual.

The 4-1-4-1 can do the exact same though. You can have players mimic your shape and the positions you take up quite easy, hence why I am confused to why people think it needs to make up more space.

On the other hand (taking the example you just posted) if you face a team who doesn't sit deep and plays attacking/control/normal or just a team in general who play direct then your players will be far too high to do any pressing as then it falls into the tracking back catergory. As your players positions will be far too advanced to do any pressing as the opposition will be at the back of your high players. Take your AMC for example, he'll be more likely to press the defence than the midfield, so unless the AI is playing out from the back it'll just be a lot of needless running about from my experience. It'll look like he is closing down and shutting down options but if you study it over a long period of time you'll notice he does a lot of running and wins the odd ball but doesn't produce much end product from his pressing due to who he is pressing.

Everything you do in the 4-2-3-1 I can do except the 4-1-4-1 is better defensively from a solid stand point. Plus you have to remember the pressing you describe above is dependant on the formation you line up against too. Against wingbacks or teams who use ML/MR then your pressing game won't work the same and the scenario you describe above is rare unless you are a dominant team in the league you are in.

I know it seems I'm being picky, I'm genuinely not I just think (with all the respect in the world) there is a lack of understanding about how attacking and aggressive the 4-1-4-1 can actually be.

I know it seems I'm being picky, I'm genuinely not I just think (with all the respect in the world) there is a lack of understanding about how attacking and aggressive the 4-1-4-1 can actually be.

I agree with your points - you have to remember that I change formation perpetually, and I absolutely agree than my shape would be stupid in a number of scenarios, so I change it!

However, my personal view on Pressing is that it is most effective where the Pressing is immediate - i.e. the advanced players are immediately on top of the ball carriers at the back. For me, there's no question that this is more quickly possible with AMC players than MCs. My AMCs are all narrow, so it's like a wall of Press freaking out the AI defence. I'd love to play against me, as it would be a piece of p*ss, but the AI isn't as smart as some people think!

I agree with your points - you have to remember that I change formation perpetually, and I absolutely agree than my shape would be stupid in a number of scenarios, so I change it!

However, my personal view on Pressing is that it is most effective where the Pressing is immediate - i.e. the advanced players are immediately on top of the ball carriers at the back. For me, there's no question that this is more quickly possible with AMC players than MCs. My AMCs are all narrow, so it's like a wall of Press freaking out the AI defence. I'd love to play against me, as it would be a piece of p*ss, but the AI isn't as smart as some people think!

But this only works if teams play out from the back with the ball, that's my whole point. So it doesn't 'really' work at all, it's a limited thing. If the opposition don't play out from the back then the ball carriers are the midfielders and you'd be too advanced to press them as they'd be behind you.

Pressing works best when you set your side up to utilise it and a way to work for you. You seem to be making it black and white when it really isn't. I do know you said in your personal view, but you seem to suggest its as clear cut as 'oh he's high he'll press better' but that's simply not true.

But this only works if teams play out from the back with the ball, that's my whole point. So it doesn't 'really' work at all, it's a limited thing. If the opposition don't play out from the back then the ball carriers are the midfielders and you'd be too advanced to press them as they'd be behind you.

Pressing works best when you set your side up to utilise it and a way to work for you. You seem to be making it black and white when it really isn't. I do know you said in your personal view, but you seem to suggest its as clear cut as 'oh he's high he'll press better' but that's simply not true.

We could go in circles all day, but I'm playing in the Premier League, and nobody is particularly playing the ball out quickly - not even Bournemouth

I'm not intending to make it a black and white rule, I'm just saying that "in my opinion" pressing works best further up the field, but I agree with you that it is all situational and depends on the AI shape.

Hi,

Thanks for all the feedback!

olivermain83:

Thanks for the advise. I'll definitely consider to unlearn the "Tries to beat offside trap" for some of my attackers. Didn't know that "looks for Overlap" stops my wingers going forward. I'll loose that shout as well.

RTHerringbone and Cleon:

Interesting discussion. I don't feel there is any major defensive problems with this setup. Only conceded 12 in 11 games and considering that my player aren't fluent in the formation yet, I don't think that's a problem.

However as I mentioned in the original post, the tactic doesn't seam particularly potent in the current setup. Maybe the short passing game is a little to ambitious for a mid-table championship team.

My idea is to change the attack strategy to a more high tempo, direct football, but continue with the aggressive pressing in defense.

I'll also change the fluidity to "balanced".