Rafa's Liverpool 08/09

Has anyone tried to put together a version of Rafa’s 08/09 Liverpool default tactic that saw their best Premier League season to date…

Rafa’s most played XI was –

Reina; Arbeloa, Carra, Agger, Aurelio; Mascherano, Alonso; Kuyt, Gerrard, Riera; Torres.

As far as I see it, the basic formation was a 4231, although a 4411 could also be considered a realistic interpretation, but I’m working on the former.

Considering the team in sections, my conclusions are as follows –

Attack

Torres was most definitely the spearhead of the attack and to me AF is the most natural fit, and generally he held central positions, however he could occasionally be found chasing the ball down the flanks and providing crosses for an arriving Gerrard (or Kuyt), hence I think that Roam from Positions & Move Into Channels fits for me. An alternative could be CF(A), but I’m sticking with my original thought for now.

Gerrard played at the front of the midfield and was the main support for Torres, often fulfilling a 2nd striker role, but could be found often threading weighted passes through for the Spaniard to latch on to. I’m not really sure which role fits best here, but as he often stayed in front of the 2 banks of 4 when Liverpool defended (showing a clear 4411 formation) it would be logical that he wasn’t tasked with much defensively, so I’ve opted for a Treq but added Tackle Harder as he wasn’t shy in that department.

Midfield Pair

Mascherano & Alonso were the midfield pair that all Liverpool fans wish we could have back in a flash. They were very much a holding pair but with very different roles in the team. Masc was the archetypal midfield terrier, chasing down opponents who dared stray into his area of the pitch and winning the ball back before they could cause any trouble, hence (for me) BWM(D) is clearly the best fit. He wasn’t and Anchor of Half Back and was more than the standard DM. As his job was basically to win the ball back and give it to someone more creative, I’ve added Pass it Shorter.

Alonso was the team’s playmaker and although he could occasionally be found rifling one in from the edge of the area (or the halfway line ) he rarely strayed much further forward, so a DLP(S) seems to fit best. I don’t see him as a RGA as I don’t think he was really as dynamic as I think the role is in FM14. Xabi was never shy of a tackle and would happily ping a 40 yard ball now and then, so I’ve added Close Down More and More Direct Passes for him.

The two roles for these I’ve selected allow the option of placing these 2 in the CM strata, after a little experimentation, I think this is probably the best option, especially when playing on the front foot (see Mentality choice later).

Right Hand Side

Arbeloa was a Full Back – plain and simple. Not over sure he’d have known what to do had he found himself in the box.

Kuyt on the other hand I find a problem defining in FM. Being right footed and playing on the right rules out the natural option of IF and he was no winger either. He got his fair share of goals, very often important ones, so he needs to be in the box now and then. In the end, I think the best fit for me is DW(S), but with Get Further Forward and Sit Narrower selected.

Based partly on Kuyt’s setting, I’ve gone for FB(A) for Arbeloa with Run Wide with Ball which should see him overlap Kuyt and not run into the same space. I decided against Stay Wider as I felt this would apply in defensive situations too and I don’t think that was the case – Rafa’s defences tend to be quite narrow.

Left Hand Side

Riera played generally as a winger giving balance to the team and generally staying wide, so my initial thought would be to play him as a W(A) although I’m open to persuasion as to whether he could be considered anything else. He was left footed, so again IF doesn’t fit. I also think Stay Wider for him fits, so that he does just that.

Aurelio, whilst having a very sweet left foot, was again (like his counterpart on the other flank) a Full Back. I’ve gone for FB(S) for him, but with Cuts Inside with Ball as Riera would have been hogging the line.

Central Defence

Carragher was the mainstay of Liverpool’s defence that season. He was no ball-player, but similarly he wasn’t totally inept on the ball either. His partner varied that year, but generally Carra was tasked with covering for the other CB who, whether it was Agger or Hyppia, was often found slightly ahead looking to intercept and stop attacks before they really got going. So for Carra I’ve gone for CD©.

His partner, in my team above Agger, was the one who stepped out of the line to break things up. Agger often started attacks too, so I think BPD(X) fits best there.

And finally….

Goalkeeper

Reina, particularly during this period, was one of the best to have guarded the Liverpool net. He was good (for a goalie) with the ball at his feet and actually had been known to play outfield in training and pre-season friendlies. He was often found trying to launch quick counter-attacks with a throw to one of his FB’s, so I think SK(S) fits him, with Take Quick Throws.

Team Settings & Instructions

TBH, other than Gerrard, I don’t recall much deviation from position during matches, so although many have said Rafa’s team was Fluid, given the number of specialisms within the team, I actually think for FM purposes, Very Rigid is actually more appropriate.

They were never a gung-ho go at ‘em team, but they did play on the front foot (so Control for me), pressing high, trying to win the ball back either in the oppositions half, or not long after it crossed the half way line, and then swiftly pushing forward to threaten the opposition goal. Liverpool’s 2nd against Everton on Tuesday was so reminiscent of an 08/09 goal. For Sterling, Coutinho & Sturridge, we could easily read Kuyt, Alonso/Gerrard, Torres. I think Higher Tempo & Hassle Opponents are needed to replicate this (some may differ), coupled with a high d-line (for now I’ve gone with Much Higher Defensive Line) & Stay on Feet so that swift advantage of the freshly won ball can be maximised.

During this period, Liverpool were defensively very strong. I’m not overly sure how to re-create this, but I don’t recall them sitting deep (which backs up my above instruction), but likewise they weren’t spread out either, so I think that Play Narrower would be an appropriate instruction.

Other than Alonso, the team didn’t play that many long balls (even Gerrard back then didn’t spray the ball around as much as he does these days) so Shorter Passing would I think be correct with Play Out of Defence as they were certainly not a route 1 team. There will be Man Utd fans who may disagree with that considering that Rafa played very much a direct counter attack tactic against them during the purple patch that year which saw Liverpool run out 4-1 winners at Old Trafford .

So…. given all the above, I’ve come up with this.

Would welcome comments, suggestions etc…

There was a thread on this not too long ago some decent suggestions in there. To be honest I wouldn't consider that team to be such a "short" passing team but I've found with this M.E sometimes you have to put the opposite to what you think to get the desired effect from the M.E and that seems a pretty sound replication.

Personally I would have both cm's in the Deep role and probably mascherano as defensive midfielder - D and Xabi Alonso DLP d/s probably just as a starting point.

Only other things are the top 2 replicating how Gerrard and Torres played in that season I think would be difficult but good luck. Advanced forward and attacking midfielder attack ? Unsure with Gerrard's one maybe with get further forward as well on attacking midfielder attack could replicate it well but I don't know with this M.E to be honest.

There was a thread on this not too long ago some decent suggestions in there.

I did a search before I started this one and the only one I found Rafa related recently had his current Napoli team as it's starting point.

I did a search before I started this one and the only one I found Rafa related recently had his current Napoli team as it's starting point.

It might have been under a Liverpool related title I'll have a look in my post history as I posted in it.

Gerrard was all over the pitch, one of the best things about him in the role behind the forward was how mobile he was, he could shift over short space very quickly. I'd say he played AM (a) although he was so good he could do so much more, would be very difficult to replicate his role in FM, he definitely wasn't a trequartista though, he definitely played a part defensively too.

I'd say both Alonso and Macherano played in the DM strata, Alonso Deeplying play maker (s) Mascherano BWM (d) although Anchor Man might be a better role to use for the purpose of how it works in FM BWM just press to far up, but it may work okay if they were in the DM strata.

As far as the philosophy goes, I'd say they were Fluid, the team was kind of split in to two halfs, defense and attack, not to much transition, obviously Alonso's (And Gerrard's) passing allowed this to an extent. However, I'm not sure that the team had a great deal of creative freedom, other than Gerrard, so it is well open to debate which philosophy is the closest.

Play narrower is an attacking instruction by the way, or at least not a defensive one. I think Liverpool were fairly deep anyway, if you think about the two center backs, Carragher was woefully short of pace, and had to use his positioning and general desire to win to play how he played. I always saw them as a counter attacking side to an extent, with Mascherano winning the ball back, and Alonso spraying passes turning defense in to attack quickly.

Although it can't really work in FM how you want it to, I am pretty sure the more I think about it, that Gerrard was more of a modern day Box to Box midfielder, he did get this more advanced role that season, but he was just everywhere. I don't believe Liverpool used especially short passing either, although not direct, it was far from tippy tappy football. It was a good side that Liverpool one, it kind was kind of the peak for Rafa, losing Alonso was a big blow, almost impossible for him to replace.

Gerrard was all over the pitch, one of the best things about him in the role behind the forward was how mobile he was, he could shift over short space very quickly. I'd say he played AM (a) although he was so good he could do so much more, would be very difficult to replicate his role in FM, he definitely wasn't a trequartista though, he definitely played a part defensively too.

I'd say both Alonso and Macherano played in the DM strata, Alonso Deeplying play maker (s) Mascherano BWM (d) although Anchor Man might be a better role to use for the purpose of how it works in FM BWM just press to far up, but it may work okay if they were in the DM strata.

As far as the philosophy goes, I'd say they were Fluid, the team was kind of split in to two halfs, defense and attack, not to much transition, obviously Alonso's (And Gerrard's) passing allowed this to an extent. However, I'm not sure that the team had a great deal of creative freedom, other than Gerrard, so it is well open to debate which philosophy is the closest.

Play narrower is an attacking instruction by the way, or at least not a defensive one. I think Liverpool were fairly deep anyway, if you think about the two center backs, Carragher was woefully short of pace, and had to use his positioning and general desire to win to play how he played. I always saw them as a counter attacking side to an extent, with Mascherano winning the ball back, and Alonso spraying passes turning defense in to attack quickly.

Although it can't really work in FM how you want it to, I am pretty sure the more I think about it, that Gerrard was more of a modern day Box to Box midfielder, he did get this more advanced role that season, but he was just everywhere. I don't believe Liverpool used especially short passing either, although not direct, it was far from tippy tappy football. It was a good side that Liverpool one, it kind was kind of the peak for Rafa, losing Alonso was a big blow, almost impossible for him to replace.

I agree with a lot of this . And as for the thread op I can't seem to go more than 2 pages of my posts back so I can't find it which is a shame.

I like what you've got though in general, the team tactics I would personally play deeper and direct as opposed to high and short. I'm intrigued anyway so I'm going to give this a go too not sure who with yet.

Gerrard was all over the pitch, one of the best things about him in the role behind the forward was how mobile he was, he could shift over short space very quickly. I'd say he played AM (a) although he was so good he could do so much more, would be very difficult to replicate his role in FM, he definitely wasn't a trequartista though, he definitely played a part defensively too.

I'd say both Alonso and Macherano played in the DM strata, Alonso Deeplying play maker (s) Mascherano BWM (d) although Anchor Man might be a better role to use for the purpose of how it works in FM BWM just press to far up, but it may work okay if they were in the DM strata.

As far as the philosophy goes, I'd say they were Fluid, the team was kind of split in to two halfs, defense and attack, not to much transition, obviously Alonso's (And Gerrard's) passing allowed this to an extent. However, I'm not sure that the team had a great deal of creative freedom, other than Gerrard, so it is well open to debate which philosophy is the closest.

Play narrower is an attacking instruction by the way, or at least not a defensive one. I think Liverpool were fairly deep anyway, if you think about the two center backs, Carragher was woefully short of pace, and had to use his positioning and general desire to win to play how he played. I always saw them as a counter attacking side to an extent, with Mascherano winning the ball back, and Alonso spraying passes turning defense in to attack quickly.

Although it can't really work in FM how you want it to, I am pretty sure the more I think about it, that Gerrard was more of a modern day Box to Box midfielder, he did get this more advanced role that season, but he was just everywhere. I don't believe Liverpool used especially short passing either, although not direct, it was far from tippy tappy football. It was a good side that Liverpool one, it kind was kind of the peak for Rafa, losing Alonso was a big blow, almost impossible for him to replace.

I did concede I wasn't sure on the Gerrard role - the player himself at the time pretty much transcended instruction, but I don't see a "do what you feel like" instruction, however am happy to experiment with AM(A), but I think with Get Further Forward, Roam From Position and still Tackle Harder selected.

I'm not sold on the DM line argument - I'm happy to leave them at CM (and it's certainly the case that for Spain Alsonso played in the CM line alongside Xavi with Busquests behind them).

The Fluid philosophy for me doesn't fit with so many speciality roles. Although Alonso was the only real play-maker, others had specialisms too. But with the Gerrard role changed to an AM & based on the sticky guide, I make it 3.5 specialists, which would be Rigid, so I'll make that change too.

I always thought Play Narrower was about shape, in which case surely it would affect the defensive set up?

I tend to agree with you regarding them being Counter Attacking, but they were an aggressive counter attacking side, not one that sat back. I've never been over comfortable that the Counter Mentality in FM can be used to re-create this, hence I'm happy to continue with a high tempo pressing game to try and achieve this. I have seen many posts putting forward the view that actually an Attacking mentality with the right TI's can re-create this more aggressive counter style.

I agree, they weren't tippy tappy, but also they rarely played long balls (other than Alonso), so would leaving passing neutral achieve this? Worth a try I suppose, so I'll remove

Thanks for you thought and let's see how this progresses.

You will probably (definitely) run in to problems using attacking mentality every game. It's so hard to break down the smaller sides, all your players get in to, to advanced positions, and you have no one dragging defenders out. I'm not saying it can't work of course it can, but I see a lot of posts on here about this kind of thing. I wouldn't over worry yourself about the specialist roles in the Fluid system, you can have more, they just aren't as prominent in the fluid system.

It's so difficult to replicate tactics, because everyone see's them differently, but it's a lot of the fun of the game too. I liked this Liverpool side a lot, it was a far better side than they have now in my opinion, it was a shame it kind of got pulled to pieces, cos I think they had a realistic chance of winning the League if it hadn't. Not that I'm a Liverpool fan at all, support a lower league side, but I still like good football.

Millie at FM Britain had a shot at this a while back. Might be of help.

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/wp-content/appendix/TacticalTheorems10Appendix1_1.pdf

Nice sheet that is, some good ideas on there, never saw that before, even though it's for an older game, there are some nice templates to work with that could be used, and we have more roles available to us now.

Millie at FM Britain had a shot at this a while back. Might be of help.

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/wp-content/appendix/TacticalTheorems10Appendix1_1.pdf

Interesting that he came to very similar conclusions to my OP, although I'd have to disagree with Kuyt & Riera as IF's as they certainly weren't.

I think this is a very difficult tactic to re-create in game (and be successful). I have tried a number of times and had no joy in getting any real success.

The other reason I believe this is the case is that Benitez himself repeatedly fails and is generally sacked in almost every game I start.

The difficulty I think is in linking the attack with the defense AND getting Gerrard to be in and around the front man. The tactic in game is heavily reliant on the passing and vision of the DLP, if the opposition can nullify him you can end up with what looks like 2 teams on the pitch (the front 4 and the defensive 6) with very limited passing options between the two.

Giving Gerrard and AMC-S should help with this, it should encourage him to drop a little deeper and link play, and because he has a 'gets forward whenever possible' PPM he should still get forward enough to support the striker.

I would still personally go with 'Fluid' as I would only have specialist roles for the 'Kuyt position' - DW, and the DLP. Although I first thought Agger should be a BPD, I think that was probably a lot due to his own personal playing style (again 'gets forward whenever possible PPM').

I'm going to give this a go a little later as follows;

Fluidity - Fluid

Mentality - Control (although I believe Rafa adjusted this most depending on circumstances)

Shouts;

Pass shorter

Play out from defence

Play wider

Pass into space

SK - Defend

RFB - Support

RCB - Cover

RCB - Defend

LWB - Attack (Unsure on this role & duty at the minute) - Agree with OP - Cut

DM - Defend

DLP - Support

(both the above in the Defensive Midfielder slots)

RDW - Support

AMC - Support

LW - Support (unsure on this duty at the minute)

DLF - Attack

Any input welcome.

Will update further later.

@eddymunster

yes, I think we all agree tactical replication (especially when you no longer have the actual players) is difficult - but we like a challenge

For me I think it's a falacy (and possibly why people fail in trying to get this right) that just because a midfielder may be seen as defensively minded, that they have to play in the DM line. I've been happily playing mine in the CM line and it looks right on screen. Masc role runs around chasing balls down, very rarely going anywhere near the box, and the Alonso role drifts around in the middle of the park, occasionally popping up just outside the area to have a crack at goal. Also, as they're in the CM line, I'm not seeing issues regarding linking with the front 4.

I agree that Rafa adjusted philospophy based on circumstance (and would often change formation too as his change to a 3-4-2-1 in Instanbul shows, but that's not the basis of this thread..... maybe another one once this is nailed ), hence I'm also on Control as a starting point, but that could change in match. What I found in experimenting is that if I drop the mentality (or d-line a little) when leading, it creates space behind their back 4 as they try and get back in the game + turning on Pass into Space then exploits this to good effect.

Rafa did not play wide... sorry, but his sides were notoriuos for lacking width and it was only when he brought on the likes of Pennant was this in evidence. Generally they played Narrow with what width there was coming from full-backs or assigned individuals.

You've not mentioned any PI's - do you have any?

I agree that when the side was struggling to break teams down they were notorious for lacking width. However, when they were on song, width largely came from supporting full back (right) who would maintain width and winger (left). So I have removed this and added the below PIs.

I definitely agree that the front line (right side in particular) was often very narrow so I will be giving the DWr the PIs sit narrower and get further forward (to provide more of a wide threat on goal - as Kuyt did)

In terms of player instructions apart from the above;

DLP = More direct passes

FBr = Stay Wider

FBl = Cut inside

AMC = get further forward (in the hope he still links play but also supports the striker)

LW = stay wider

DWr = Sit Narrower, Get further forward

DLF = Move into channels, close down less

Just about to play the first match of the season as Sheffield Utd, here goes nothing!

I've also added higher tempo to try to increase the chances of quick breaks, mainly as control strategy is lower in counter attacking play than Def, Att, Counter strategies.

Lost the first game 3-1 at home to Notts Co, mainly due to a poor first half. 1st note would be to give the DM the PI pass it shorter and hold position.

Although masch did chase the ball down, I believe he did it only when it came into a threatening area or his defensive zone.

I also think giving the GK the PI distribute to defenders would help as he completed only 52% of his passes.

Scraped past Bradford, then Lamped 3-1 by Brentford.

Although their goals came from a corner, long throw and free-kick and we seemed to play better.

Reading Gerrards auto-biography....depending on the match he was either a Box to Box or a CM-A ...He was not fully comfortable being way up front ...he liked to play smack dab in the middle of the pitch slightly to the right CM-R (A) and enjoyed blasting forward when he could...

CM (A) with Hard Tackling/Close down more would be the best fit I believe in front of the 2 holders.

At times late in a match he was asked to drop a bit deeper which would put him into a CM (S/D) type role where he had to be part of the holding crew ...which he was not fond of but he said he would do anything for the team. He always enjoyed playing with a holder beside/behind him because it allowed him to penetrate at will from the Midfield.

They did play a lot of 4-2-3-1 according to his book and also a 4-4-2 style where one would be a CM (D) and he being the CM (A)..

Just my 2 cents (FYI for those who are not aware ...the CM (A) can be a very potent player and still tracks back depending on fluidity/mentality ...hence where the Mentality Ladder thread would come into play to find the balance you want in your formation.

Actually ...bingo ....here you go - One of the best sites EVER and I just realized you could use this to help you

http://www.football-lineups.com/season/Liverpool/2008-2009/

I agree that when the side was struggling to break teams down they were notorious for lacking width. However, when they were on song, width largely came from supporting full back (right) who would maintain width and winger (left). So I have removed this and added the below PIs.

I definitely agree that the front line (right side in particular) was often very narrow so I will be giving the DWr the PIs sit narrower and get further forward (to provide more of a wide threat on goal - as Kuyt did)

In terms of player instructions apart from the above;

DLP = More direct passes

FBr = Stay Wider

FBl = Cut inside

AMC = get further forward (in the hope he still links play but also supports the striker)

LW = stay wider

DWr = Sit Narrower, Get further forward

DLF = Move into channels, close down less

Just about to play the first match of the season as Sheffield Utd, here goes nothing!

DLP = More direct passes - ditto

FBr = Stay Wider - I have "Runs wide with ball" so that he only does this when attacking.

FBl = Cut inside - ditto

AMC = get further forward (in the hope he still links play but also supports the striker) - ditto + I have Roaming

LW = stay wider - ditto

DWr = Sit Narrower, Get further forward - ditto

DLF = Move into channels, close down less - well I have mine as an AF so it's a slightly different animal

Are you having any success? I feel I'm pretty close to what Rafa's tactic was like but my results are average at best.

Reading Gerrards auto-biography....depending on the match he was either a Box to Box or a CM-A ...He was not fully comfortable being way up front ...he liked to play smack dab in the middle of the pitch slightly to the right CM-R (A) and enjoyed blasting forward when he could...

CM (A) with Hard Tackling/Close down more would be the best fit I believe in front of the 2 holders.

At times late in a match he was asked to drop a bit deeper which would put him into a CM (S/D) type role where he had to be part of the holding crew ...which he was not fond of but he said he would do anything for the team. He always enjoyed playing with a holder beside/behind him because it allowed him to penetrate at will from the Midfield.

They did play a lot of 4-2-3-1 according to his book and also a 4-4-2 style where one would be a CM (D) and he being the CM (A)..

Just my 2 cents (FYI for those who are not aware ...the CM (A) can be a very potent player and still tracks back depending on fluidity/mentality ...hence where the Mentality Ladder thread would come into play to find the balance you want in your formation.

Actually ...bingo ....here you go - One of the best sites EVER and I just realized you could use this to help you

http://www.football-lineups.com/season/Liverpool/2008-2009/

That's a very interesting site and confirms that although it's true that Rafa did use varying formations through the season, his preference was the 4-2-3-1 I'm trying to work on

What I did find interesting was what the duties seemed to be (based on that sites parameters). Forgetting the back 4 for a mo, to me it seems it was as follows -

Masc - D

Alonso - S

Gerrard - S

Kuyt - A

Riera - S

Torres - A

So that would imply a need to do some rethinking around the Gerrard, Kuyt & Riera roles...

I definitely agree with the comments above that suggest dropping your CM's to the DM line. You'll want an Anchor man and a DLP(s) there.

I'd also suggest that Gerrard was the equivalent of a CM(a) (in the CM strata as opposed to being in the AM strata - if you watch how a CM(a) plays you'll see a lot of Gerrard type gut busting runs into the box).

Otherwise I think you've got it pretty close.

I've been flicking through Rafa's book "Champions League Dreams" for clues and have picked up these...

Real Madrid 0 LFC 1 - "As ever, we determined not to play too deep a defensive line, so as to ensure we did not invite pressure on ourselves"; "We knew we would have to press them well...";"look for Torres running behind the defenders";"narrow & compact..... is the way to play, especially away from home in Europe";"To have any hope of winning, it is imperative to deny your opponents space"; "the players lined up in that familiar 4-2-3-1, closed down well, retained shape and did not allow the movement of Real's strikers to pull them out of position"; "Our midfield [Masc & Alonso] played close to our defensive line, shutting off all space"; there's also mention of identifying Robben as the danger and how he was marshalled. The plan that day it seemed was not to lose. There's mention of Torres & Benayoun having chances on the counter, but the winner came from a well drilled set piece - job done

LFC 4 Real Madrid 0 - Rafa saw this as the Reds finest European performance of his time at Anfield "that night, as we tore Madrid to shreds, we were almost perfect"; "we wanted to start fast, intense, be on top of them from the very first whistle"; "Don't give them so much as a second to play a pass or to keep the ball. Don't allow them time"; "Our idea in such games was normally to press the ball high, but (against Madrid) we would allow their CD's a little possession, encourage them forward with the ball. Once they approached the half way line, we would begin to press. That way... there would be space... for Torres"; "Stay compact & narrow in defence"; "Keep pressing. Don't give Madrid a minute"; about the third goal "He [babel] escaped down the left wing and crossed, low... Gerrard, as ever, was charging into the area... met it with the side of his foot..."; "The ball rarely left Madrid's half";

Man Utd 1 LFC 4 - "4 days later, we did to Man Utd what we had done to Real.."; "allow Vidic possession in his own half, not pressing him early... Evra would start his run forward... Torres was to target the space the 2 defenders had vacated".

Liverpool followed these with a 5-0 win v Villa and played what Rafa describes as "the best 2 weeks of my time at Liverpool, Istanbul apart".

And if this is what Rafa sees as his Liverpool at their peak, then this is what I want this thread to lead to re-creating. There are clearly some points here that may need OI's to reproduce and hence are game specific (and not achievable in FMC afaik), but I'm open to suggestions as to how we reproduce those clear team instructions he gave.

Are you having any success? I feel I'm pretty close to what Rafa's tactic was like but my results are average at best.

Other than getting turned over by Man City (who doesn't), I'm happy so far. Still tinkering, so will post an update later.

The Gerrard debate, overall I would say Gerrard has been a more attack minded box to box midfielder over the years. He really has been an excellent all round player, you don't get many players that can get round the pitch like he could, could pass the ball over long distances, tackle really well, and score goals.

However in the tactic that the OP was talking about, he had definitely been given a more advanced role behind Torres, and he was bloody good at it too, one thing people didn't really notice so much about Gerrard because of all his other great attributes was how quickly he got around, he was like lightning over a short distance. I was looking for some clips of his play online last night and ended up spending 45 minutes watching his first 100 goals for Liverpool, some fantastic goals in there.

It would be quite difficult to replicate what Rafa had that season in FM for a simple reason, the same reason Rafa couldn't the season after, they just don't have as good a team right now. They don't have an Alonso who can spray passes and land them on a sixpence over 40 yards. The don't have anyone nearly as good as Mascherano in the holding role, they have Gerrard, but they don't have Gerrard of 5 years ago. They also don't have Torres of 5 years ago either, although Suarez is arguably a better player, Torres had his role down to perfection at Liverpool, they have no one now who can play it. So getting it to work in game with today's squad is going to be difficult, because they couldn't get it to work in real life.

The Gerrard debate, overall I would say Gerrard has been a more attack minded box to box midfielder over the years. He really has been an excellent all round player, you don't get many players that can get round the pitch like he could, could pass the ball over long distances, tackle really well, and score goals.

However in the tactic that the OP was talking about, he had definitely been given a more advanced role behind Torres, and he was bloody good at it too, one thing people didn't really notice so much about Gerrard because of all his other great attributes was how quickly he got around, he was like lightning over a short distance. I was looking for some clips of his play online last night and ended up spending 45 minutes watching his first 100 goals for Liverpool, some fantastic goals in there.

It would be quite difficult to replicate what Rafa had that season in FM for a simple reason, the same reason Rafa couldn't the season after, they just don't have as good a team right now. They don't have an Alonso who can spray passes and land them on a sixpence over 40 yards. The don't have anyone nearly as good as Mascherano in the holding role, they have Gerrard, but they don't have Gerrard of 5 years ago. They also don't have Torres of 5 years ago either, although Suarez is arguably a better player, Torres had his role down to perfection at Liverpool, they have no one now who can play it. So getting it to work in game with today's squad is going to be difficult, because they couldn't get it to work in real life.

TBH, the Gerrard role is not the one I'm having the greatest problems with. You're right that the player himself made the role his own and I can't think of anyone who did/does it quite the same, however from an FM definition perspective, I see it as one of AM(A) + Roaming or CM(A) + Roaming & GFF (or possibly BBM + Roaming & GFF).

The role I'm really struggling to get right is the Kuyt one. Back in FM13 there was a DW(A), but the Attack option isn't there any more. I've tried IF(A) + Sit Narrow, GFF & Shoot Less; DW(S) with the same PI's & even dropped it down to the MR position with the DW(S) options again and also as a WM(A). To me I think the IF is the better fit, except that I don't want the cut in! Any thought anyone?

TBH, the Gerrard role is not the one I'm having the greatest problems with. You're right that the player himself made the role his own and I can't think of anyone who did/does it quite the same, however from an FM definition perspective, I see it as one of AM(A) + Roaming or CM(A) + Roaming & GFF (or possibly BBM + Roaming & GFF).

The role I'm really struggling to get right is the Kuyt one. Back in FM13 there was a DW(A), but the Attack option isn't there any more. I've tried IF(A) + Sit Narrow, GFF & Shoot Less; DW(S) with the same PI's & even dropped it down to the MR position with the DW(S) options again and also as a WM(A). To me I think the IF is the better fit, except that I don't want the cut in! Any thought anyone?

Wide Targetman all day long for me with Kuyt. It's exactly what he was for Liverpool imo.

Wide Targetman all day long for me with Kuyt. It's exactly what he was for Liverpool imo.

Thanks - worth a try

TBH, the Gerrard role is not the one I'm having the greatest problems with. You're right that the player himself made the role his own and I can't think of anyone who did/does it quite the same, however from an FM definition perspective, I see it as one of AM(A) + Roaming or CM(A) + Roaming & GFF (or possibly BBM + Roaming & GFF).

The role I'm really struggling to get right is the Kuyt one. Back in FM13 there was a DW(A), but the Attack option isn't there any more. I've tried IF(A) + Sit Narrow, GFF & Shoot Less; DW(S) with the same PI's & even dropped it down to the MR position with the DW(S) options again and also as a WM(A). To me I think the IF is the better fit, except that I don't want the cut in! Any thought anyone?

The defensive winger on support isn't nearly as defensive as you'd imagine in the AMR/L strata, in fact in my game, which is completely different to yours, I tried out my most attacking wide player in that role, and he excelled in it. I'm not sure it fits the Kuyt role though, as Cleon says he is pretty much what I would see as a perfect example of the wide target man, although I am still a little unsure what that role offers in game yet, definitely worth trying out and working with.

Alonso was the biggest loss from Rafa's side, almost impossible to replace, without spending a kings ransom and some more. Not seen a man that can pass the ball with such accuracy over a long distance since Jan Molby :-) (You are possibly to young to remember him)

The defensive winger on support isn't nearly as defensive as you'd imagine in the AMR/L strata, in fact in my game, which is completely different to yours, I tried out my most attacking wide player in that role, and he excelled in it. I'm not sure it fits the Kuyt role though, as Cleon says he is pretty much what I would see as a perfect example of the wide target man, although I am still a little unsure what that role offers in game yet, definitely worth trying out and working with.

Alonso was the biggest loss from Rafa's side, almost impossible to replace, without spending a kings ransom and some more. Not seen a man that can pass the ball with such accuracy over a long distance since Jan Molby :-) (You are possibly to young to remember him)

Ha, if only.... I can still remember quite clearly the 74 FA Cup final!!

This is where I am at the moment...

+ the following PI's

GK - Quick Throws; Pass Shorter

BWM - Pass Shorter

WTM - Sit Narrower (plus Shoot Less if I play Sturridge there)

AM - Roam

W - Stay Wide

CF - Move into Channels

The posted set up is my starting point and, depending on the state of the game, I may make changes in match, for example if the opposition have overloaded the AMC positions, then I may drop the CM's to DM - although what I have noticed when I do play DM's is that it often invites play on and can be a bit hairy at times.

Anyway, that all said, it's not been tearing up trees, but we are top as the year turns (although the 4 below us could in theory overtake with their game in hand... but that's football )

Just a quick note, you may want, or find you need to change your BWM (d) to Center Midfield (d) because the BWM even on defend duty just gets lost up the pitch chasing balls. You may get it to work, but in my experience of FM14 it doesn't.

Just a quick note, you may want, or find you need to change your BWM (d) to Center Midfield (d) because the BWM even on defend duty just gets lost up the pitch chasing balls. You may get it to work, but in my experience of FM14 it doesn't.

Not been an issue to date, in fact quite the opposite. More likely it morphs into a kinda 4-1-2-2-1 as it moves forward with the DLP(S) pushing a little ahead.

Great, if the DLP is playing ahead of him, that's brilliant, it wasn't the case when I tried it before, no idea why, sure there is some reason, possibly because you have your whole team set to press, where as I had a low block set up with stay on feet etc.

Great, if the DLP is playing ahead of him, that's brilliant, it wasn't the case when I tried it before, no idea why, sure there is some reason, possibly because you have your whole team set to press, where as I had a low block set up with stay on feet etc.

Also you mentioned pushing your center mids back to DM. What I have done in a tactic I am working on is push my destroyer (mines an Anchor Man) back to the DM strata, but kept the DLP in the midfield strata, seems to be working quite nicely so far.

I would like to chip in here, if I may. Mascherano and Alonso were positioned as defensive midfielders. Mascherano was the breaker up of opposing attacks and Alonso was the starter of the LFC attacks. He might be described as the DLP.

With regards to Dirk Kuijt, I would describe him as a box to box winger, if that is possible. He was, by trade, a striker in Holland. Maybe a defensive winger would best describe him in FM14. For LFC Dirk followed in the footsteps of Craig Johnson and Ray Houghton in 'working the right side'.

I would like to chip in here, if I may. Mascherano and Alonso were positioned as defensive midfielders. Mascherano was the breaker up of opposing attacks and Alonso was the starter of the LFC attacks. He might be described as the DLP.

With regards to Dirk Kuijt, I would describe him as a box to box winger, if that is possible. He was, by trade, a striker in Holland. Maybe a defensive winger would best describe him in FM14. For LFC Dirk followed in the footsteps of Craig Johnson and Ray Houghton in 'working the right side'.

It is an option I've tried, I have made the point about defensively minded midfielders not needing to be in the DM line before... in addition, I repeat that with them in the DM line, the team sits back too far and just invites pressure - which is not how they played. I come to this conclusion after various incarnations I've played with.

On a more general point, I've settled for Counter + High Line (which isn't too high coz Counter is it's starting point ) + Much Higher Tempo to recreate the fast, intense paly that Rafa describes.

I'm going to succumb to the countless calls for me to play the Masc & Alonso roles in the DM line. Having checked their actual stats in the game, it's clear that yes they do operate best in that position, although I'm kinda relieved that the roles I've chosen seem correct. Masc's heading isn't up to being an Anchor and basically he stats tick pretty much all boxes for the BWM(D) role... although he strength is a bit down, but 5 years ago would have been significantly better.

Any thoughts on how I can stop the gap between them and the 3 in the AM line stretching?

Just thought I'd provide a quick update of where I've got to...

My default formation is now this...

Main changes from previous are -

I've changed the Masc role to an Anchor Man as the BWM was leaving position far too often for my liking and Rafa's description of he and Alonso shutting off space by playing close to the d-line simply didn't match what I was seeing. It looks much better now.

I've also simplified considerably. The 2 CD's are now both CD(D) flanked by 2 FB's. None have any PI's. Both the DM's have Close Down More + the Anchor has Pass It Shorter. The plan here is to produce a solid defence that it's hard to break through, thus forcing the opposition to either take long shots or try and go round the outside. The aim of having closing down on the DM's is so that they confront anyone who comes into their area, giving them little time to thread any dangerous through balls. It seems to be working as I've conceded just 1 goal in the last 9 matches... very Rafa

In the Kuyt role, I start with WTM(S) which seems to be working. With the FB(A) behind him, they make a good pair and he's picked the odd goal coming in late onto crosses from the left wing. In game, I may change him to a DW(S) when closing the match out as he then drop a little deeper to help out his FB.

I've changed to AM to Support to help link the midfield and as far as I recall, although Gerrard was often referred to as a 2nd striker, he was normally supporting Torres, not ahead of him. As an AM(A) I was finding them playing too close together and him not dropping into midfield to defend, which Gerrard did do. In the AM(S) role, he still arrives in the box providing a threat.

PI's now are -

GK - Take Quick Throws

Anc - Pass It Shorter, Close Down More

DLP - Close Down More

AM - Roam

AF - Move Into Channels

You'll also notice I've simplified the TI's.

To retain shape and stay "Narrow & Compact" I have Be More Disciplined and Play Narrower - this coupled with the Balanced Philosophy helps retain the teams shape, which from his comments in his book seem to me to have been high on Rafa's list of priorities - perhaps he wasn't as Fluid as some people think he was (in fact, back in his Valencia days it seems he was very disciplined in defence and that this consistently shows through as the bedrock of his tactics). To close the space between the DM and AM line I have Push Higher Up selected, but as I'm starting with a Standard (sometimes Counter) mentality, this still isn't too high. Rafa spoke about being intense, so Much Higher Tempo is a must, although this can be reduced as the game goes on, depending on the state of play. Finally, I have Play Out of Defence to try and stop the defenders simply hoofing the ball forward.

I will add to and adjust these in game as required. Against the better sides, I have found that Hassle Opponents (which I couple with Stay on Feet) has the desired affect of limiting their time on the ball and denying them the space to play, however against lesser teams who don't push up so high, it just pulls the team out of shape. If I'm up or playing counter against one of the better teams, then Pass Into Space can work well & Retain Possession can be good when closing a game out. If too many long shots, I'll turn on Work Ball Into Box and occasionally use Run at Defence, especially if they have defenders on a yellow. Most teams tend to mirror (i.e. 2 wide men each side, 3 midfielders), but if I see an opportunity to overload, I'll turn on Exploit the Flanks and Look for Overlap against narrow set ups, or Exploit the Middle if they're just playing with 2 CM's.

With the changes, recent results are P 8, W 5, D 3, L 0, F 10 A 1 Pts 18 .... not overly prolific or exciting, but effective. Included in that 8 is a 0-0 away at the Arse & a 1-0 home win over MU.

Currently 4th - 4 points behind Citeh & MU, 1 pt behind Chelski & a comfortable 5 points ahead of 5th placed Arse. 6 games to go (which will probably all go pear-shaped now I've posted this).

As always, any comments welcome especially on how I could make this a little more attacking without losing the defensive stability, as I can't see this beating Real Madrid 4-0 any time soon (although that may be down to the standard of the players).

Quick update (as I'm in the office ) - finished 4th, but 1st - 4th all separated by 1 point. Poor GD my downfall and a shock home 1-0 defeat to Cardiff (we batterred them, but couldn't score..... we woz robbed )

Without a need to change any of the instructions, I was able to up the mentality to Control against weaker sides allowing the team to dominate quite comfortably and pick up easy wins (except for the above).

So... opinions before moving into next season. The wide AM's - are they right? are their duties right, or would you swap them? AF(A) of CF(A)? If I change the AMC to Attack, how do I stop him running into my striker? And finally, how do I get more goals and retain defensive stability (although I may have answered that myself with my Mentality changes.

I know this is an old thread but with Rafa being appointed at New Castle I've started a game and had a crack at recreating the system.

As a base I agree with a lot of what you have written and have used pretty much all the same TIs with the exception of Push higher up as I have my double pivot in the cm strata. the roles are something like this

----------Gk-----------

FBs---Cd---Cd---FBs

------CMs--CMd------

-Wa-----AMs-----IFs

---------AFa-----------

It is decently solid at the back and at times can score goals but this comes usually when I alter my mentality and shape through matches and even then I'm not gaining good goal scoring consistency.

Any ideas, I would love this topic to be explored again as the discussion here was really good.

I know this is an old thread but with Rafa being appointed at New Castle I've started a game and had a crack at recreating the system.

As a base I agree with a lot of what you have written and have used pretty much all the same TIs with the exception of Push higher up as I have my double pivot in the cm strata. the roles are something like this

----------Gk-----------

FBs---Cd---Cd---FBs

------CMs--CMd------

-Wa-----AMs-----IFs

---------AFa-----------

It is decently solid at the back and at times can score goals but this comes usually when I alter my mentality and shape through matches and even then I'm not gaining good goal scoring consistency.

Any ideas, I would love this topic to be explored again as the discussion here was really good.

Thank you... I've been playing a lot of 442/4411 lately, so your bumping this up has made me think that I may look to do this again but as a 4411. As a Liverpool fan, I tend to try and play as them, but I don't see I've really got the players Rafa had.

It could work with the current Liverpool squad I think. Milner/ Henderson could be your hardworking winger, Coutinho on the left playing between the lines. Firmino could play in the Gerrard Role, Sturridge as Torres. Then a midfield duo of Lucas and Can?

I managed to find my original image that went with post #39 and re-loaded it.

I've also re-done it in FM16... which looks like this -

I managed to find my original image that went with post #39 and re-loaded it.

I've also re-done it in FM16... which looks like this -

Hey Alinp,

In the wake of Rafa's recent appointment at Newcastle, I've chosen to start a save with them in order to try and replicate his tactics with their squad. I've come up with something quite similar to your tactic, with only a few differences:

- Fluid team shape instead of Flexible

- Counter instead of Balanced (due to Newcastles rep in the league, wanted to be a bit more cautious - would ideally like to play control, though)

- DM(d) instead of A

- AM/ST combo is switched around in terms of duties, with the AM being on Attack and the ST being a CF(s)

The tactic has worked decently for me and I'm definitely seeing some Rafa-esque play from the team, however, I'm still not entirely satisfied with it. Therefore, I'm curious to hear how your version of the tactic has worked out for you? And are there any important conclusions you've made during your development of the tactic that you feel are vital to creating the style? I'd be happy to hear any advice on what you've found

Hey Alinp,

In the wake of Rafa's recent appointment at Newcastle, I've chosen to start a save with them in order to try and replicate his tactics with their squad. I've come up with something quite similar to your tactic, with only a few differences:

- Fluid team shape instead of Flexible

- Counter instead of Balanced (due to Newcastles rep in the league, wanted to be a bit more cautious - would ideally like to play control, though)

- DM(d) instead of A

- AM/ST combo is switched around in terms of duties, with the AM being on Attack and the ST being a CF(s)

The tactic has worked decently for me and I'm definitely seeing some Rafa-esque play from the team, however, I'm still not entirely satisfied with it. Therefore, I'm curious to hear how your version of the tactic has worked out for you? And are there any important conclusions you've made during your development of the tactic that you feel are vital to creating the style? I'd be happy to hear any advice on what you've found

I think the conclusions are quite well documented in the thread, however observations I would make now would be...

Counter/Fluid would better suit the "Compact/Narrow" approach he favours.

The wide mids probably need to come back to the midfield strata. I'd be inclined to keep W(A) on the left and change the Kuyt role to WM(A).

I've got it training as a 2nd tactic at the moment, so will probably look to do something with it once it's better understood by my players.

I think the conclusions are quite well documented in the thread, however observations I would make now would be...

Counter/Fluid would better suit the "Compact/Narrow" approach he favours.

The wide mids probably need to come back to the midfield strata. I'd be inclined to keep W(A) on the left and change the Kuyt role to WM(A).

I've got it training as a 2nd tactic at the moment, so will probably look to do something with it once it's better understood by my players.

Interesting stuff, I've noticed on the matches where I go to fluid the players in midfield tend to close down better and initiate attacks far quicker. I will give the counter mentality a go; luckily due to your tempo TIs play should remain high tempo

I think the conclusions are quite well documented in the thread, however observations I would make now would be...

Counter/Fluid would better suit the "Compact/Narrow" approach he favours.

The wide mids probably need to come back to the midfield strata. I'd be inclined to keep W(A) on the left and change the Kuyt role to WM(A).

I've got it training as a 2nd tactic at the moment, so will probably look to do something with it once it's better understood by my players.

Yeah, I read through the thread just after posting, so noticed your documentations, hah

I agree with you on Counter/Fluid for Team Shape/Mentality, that has worked best for me as well, especially in regards to keeping the team compact. I also feel like it allows for faster transitions/counter attacks, which I think Rafa's team were also quite focused on. Did also make the notice of maybe moving the wide mids back a tad eventually, but at the moment I am actually pretty satisfied with how they're doing.

My biggest quarrel right now is getting the striker to work properly, as he seems to sometimes become too isolated when playing on an attack duty, plus I generally don't think it replicates the way Torres played. Have you succesfully tried anything else than the AM(s) + AF combo? I tried DLF(a) instead of AF, just to get him more involved, but didn't see a great difference. Right now I'm using af CF(s) with some PIs which seems to be doing okay actually.

I think the conclusions are quite well documented in the thread, however observations I would make now would be...

Counter/Fluid would better suit the "Compact/Narrow" approach he favours.

The wide mids probably need to come back to the midfield strata. I'd be inclined to keep W(A) on the left and change the Kuyt role to WM(A).

I've got it training as a 2nd tactic at the moment, so will probably look to do something with it once it's better understood by my players.

WM/S might work better for the Kuyt role due to him dropping a bit deeper.

The wide players dropping into the midfield strata is definitely more Rafa's style. Watched the Liverpool v Real Madrid game and the game against Man Utd from the 08/09 season. In defensive phases, there was two banks of four with Gerrard/Torres ahead of them. A 4411 or a 4411DM would be good for Rafa style tactic. Counter and Fluid certainly makes sense to me as well. Rafa like's to be very compact and tough to break down.

this is where I'm at at the moment. Pretty solid except against the top teams where it gets demolished. No matter what I do I can't seem to get any goals. Has anyone else had any success?