FM14.2.1: Creating a defensively solid tactic for the weakest team in the league

I holidayed 5 seasons and took control of Oviedo in Adelante, tipped 17th IIRC. I brought them up with a narrow 4231 tactic which was quite attacking. Various versions were tested throughout the season and the one I ended up with and was the least unhappy with looks like this:

4231 Very Fluid Attack + Lower Tempo, Drill Crosses, Shoot More Rarely on all

FBLR-S (to join longer attacks, not quick ones, and help the midfielders closing down)

DC-D x2

MC-D x2 (to maintain a defensive balance while being passing options on longer attacks)

AMCRL-A (main attacking weapons and width providers)

TQ-A [amc] (drop deep to be an early passing outlet, spread passes around, join in on longer attacks)

AF-A (push forward to be an early attacking outlet, keep the ball on occasion, through ball target, the physical man up front)

In addition, I often used instructions Work Ball into Box, Retain Possession, Pass out of Defense, Shorter Passing (sometimes all together) if there were still too many bad shots and frantic play. Sometimes I didn't control the game, so then it helped with Hassle and Push Higher Up. Going to Counter sometimes worked. Using wingers seemed inefficient but I did have success with it now and then. At no point does this formation (even with Support duty AMC's) become a narrow 451 like in real life, except perhaps on Contain. I have tried MC's on D, DMC's on D and S and BWM on D and S as well as moving the AMC's to MC positions, but I was unhappy with aspects of all of those. On D they are too deep and on S too advanced. MC's on D are still a bit too advanced and holds up the ball too often. On S they disrupt the space of the AMC's too much, even if only one of them does.

Well, anyways, I had success with that tactic with a mostly Good Adelante quality side (a few Leading and Decent BBVA) and eventually won the league for a promotion. I had to get rid of the chaff once again, replacing 9 players. I have now a few Good BBVA players, while most are Leading Adelante or thereabouts. The season started out well, with a surprisingly deserved 4-1 victory away against Espanyol. Then I had a very lucky 1-0 win at home against Valencia, followed by a heavy 3-1 loss away vs Athletic Bilbao. At home vs Atletico next match, I was trashed, quit and here I am. Yes it will have to be played again, but preferably with something that gives me a fighting chance...

My current tactic is way too open against this kind of player quality. I wasn't the strongest team in Adelante but they couldn't pass through me and run from me like these guys do. There is absolutely no resistance whatsoever. I need a stronger team to use it, I think.

To be honest, I have never made a defensive, grind-out-results tactic before, and know nothing about that. There has been no need. I have always been successful with attacking tactics in FM, but the apparent randomness in player effort in FM14 has put me off a really long-term game yet. Now, with the importance on tactics on an all-time high, I need help to build one quickly.

I need one that not only prevents dangerous chances but also somewhat reduces their shot and possession domination, which is why I quit... not the results themselves. This preferably without the use of wingers and definitely without the use of wide midfielders (I think I have one). So the formations can be the current one, 433/4231 wide (preferably not), 41221 (pref. narrow), 4132, 4321 or 4222 narrow.

I am not at home but could upload screenshots if necessary later today.

Hi Biggus.

I have some experiences with this set up.

I have found the following team instructions key to winning the possession battle. Every extra % you 'win' above 50% = less chances for your opponents so is absolutely vital in a defensive/underdog tactic.

Team instructions.

Shorter passing

Lower Tempo

Retain possession

Are a given.

I also like

Sit deeper & Hassle opponents but perhaps they are not vital.

The next job is to make sure you out number your opponent in midfield or at least equal them in this area whilst having 2 'out ball's' so you carry a threat of your own.

Personally I favour a 4-1-3-2 formation but I am sure other formations are viable.

I appreciate you like to develop your own tactics but my Silk & Steel 14.2 tactic in the download section is designed to do exactly what you require so if you are stuck take a look for further insights. It's delivered outstanding results in a wide range of leagues/levels etc.

Good luck.

Oh, and the good news is 'high rep' teams will throw everything including the kitchen sink at you from the first minute if you have a 'low rep'.

Your gonna kill them on the break. Just make sure whoever your 'out balls' are have plenty of pace.

I am currently working on the same kind of thing. Just got promoted, and not a whole lot of money to spend + I want to continue progressing my youth players. I wasn't even close to being the best team in League 1, got promoted via the play offs. I intend to use mainly defensive- counter tactics the up coming season.

I have a 4-5-1, (with DM and AML/R) and a 4-2-3-1.

Much deeper defensive line

Stand off oppenents (although you can probably do a better job of giving individual players instructions)

Pass in to space ( quick counters you don't want tippy tappy football)

Early Crosses ( When players are breaking quickly, you want the ball released quickly)

Key points

* Having slow defenders, especially central isn't such a problem because of how deep you are

* Having quick players in attack is very important

* Deep lying playmaker and BBM are very good roles in this system ( The Deep lying playmaker releases quick balls to start counters, box to box midfielder will get in to the box to score goals)

As said above, as a low rep team, teams will come out the blocks at you, if you can frustrate them for 20 mins half an hour, the breaks start coming. I have won so many games when the opposition had 20 shots + without as shot inside the area, and we have created 3-5 ccc, and scored 1 or more of them to win. It becomes quite addictive, and very funny when the opponents managers keep moaning about being unlucky.

I am currently working on the same kind of thing. Just got promoted, and not a whole lot of money to spend + I want to continue progressing my youth players. I wasn't even close to being the best team in League 1, got promoted via the play offs. I intend to use mainly defensive- counter tactics the up coming season.

I have a 4-5-1, (with DM and AML/R) and a 4-2-3-1.

Much deeper defensive line

Stand off oppenents (although you can probably do a better job of giving individual players instructions)

Pass in to space ( quick counters you don't want tippy tappy football)

Early Crosses ( When players are breaking quickly, you want the ball released quickly)

Key points

* Having slow defenders, especially central isn't such a problem because of how deep you are

* Having quick players in attack is very important

* Deep lying playmaker and BBM are very good roles in this system ( The Deep lying playmaker releases quick balls to start counters, box to box midfielder will get in to the box to score goals)

As said above, as a low rep team, teams will come out the blocks at you, if you can frustrate them for 20 mins half an hour, the breaks start coming. I have won so many games when the opposition had 20 shots + without as shot inside the area, and we have created 3-5 ccc, and scored 1 or more of them to win. It becomes quite addictive, and very funny when the opponents managers keep moaning about being unlucky.

So in your experience, reducing the number of shots against to something approaching "they didn't really break through" is not a realistic goal?

Doesn't really matter how many shots they have as such, it's the quality of chances they create (or don't) If you play defensive you are inevitably going to get shots at your goal. It's great when they resort to pinging 30 yarders over the bar, because they can't get through. Sometimes one of those shots goes in, but it's not often enough to worry about. If they don't create clear cut chances, then you are doing something right.

Hi Biggus.

I have some experiences with this set up.

I have found the following team instructions key to winning the possession battle. Every extra % you 'win' above 50% = less chances for your opponents so is absolutely vital in a defensive/underdog tactic.

Team instructions.

Shorter passing

Lower Tempo

Retain possession

Are a given.

I also like

Sit deeper & Hassle opponents but perhaps they are not vital.

The next job is to make sure you out number your opponent in midfield or at least equal them in this area whilst having 2 'out ball's' so you carry a threat of your own.

Personally I favour a 4-1-3-2 formation but I am sure other formations are viable.

I appreciate you like to develop your own tactics but my Silk & Steel 14.2 tactic in the download section is designed to do exactly what you require so if you are stuck take a look for further insights. It's delivered outstanding results in a wide range of leagues/levels etc.

Good luck.

This on an attacking strategy?

This on an attacking strategy?

this thread

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/377470-The-Fulcrum-Silk-amp-Steel.-A-complete-Tactical-System-for-14.1.4-and-beyond......

Balanced/Control

this thread

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/377470-The-Fulcrum-Silk-amp-Steel.-A-complete-Tactical-System-for-14.1.4-and-beyond......

Balanced/Control

Yeah I made a narrow 4321 on Balanced and Very Fluid. Used the possession instructions and won 3-0

They shot 24 times and hit goal 6 times, 3 ccc's. I shot 5 times and hit goal 3 times.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/571/cbaj.png

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/42/6r7u.png

Yeah I made a narrow 4321 on Balanced and Very Fluid. Used the possession instructions and won 3-0

They shot 24 times and hit goal 6 times, 3 ccc's. I shot 5 times and hit goal 3 times.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/571/cbaj.png

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/42/6r7u.png

Nice.

I would consider whether you want to go with Very Fluid on a defensive tactic. Some of your defensive players may get a bit too involved and caught out of position as they will inclined to support attacks. see how it goes. Balanced, Rigid or Very Rigid might be more reliable.

I would also keep an eye on how 'play out defence' is working. With lower tempo, retain possession and short passing already on i've found adding play out of defence or work ball into box is step too far and you end up passing the ball nowhere.

Just my thoughts of course!

Well, Play Out of Defence is there just to avoid all those clearances. I started with my regular attacking tactic at home vs Celta but it didn't work out very well. 0-1 on 2 minutes and continued loss of possession after that. I then added Shorter Passing, Retain Possession and Play Out of Defence and things improved but still less then 40% possession. I then got an idea and swapped from Attack to Standard and possession and domination increased immediately, and I ended up winning 2-1 being the best team. The team played like I wanted them to all along.

Is Standard the new "go to" strategy? In FM13 I got a fluid switch between direct muscle football and patient passing out of an Attack strategy 343 with More Direct passing selected. In FM14 Attack seems to be just as gung-ho as Overload, except the runs, and tinkering to fix that just never worked consistently.

Well, Play Out of Defence is there just to avoid all those clearances. I started with my regular attacking tactic at home vs Celta but it didn't work out very well. 0-1 on 2 minutes and continued loss of possession after that. I then added Shorter Passing, Retain Possession and Play Out of Defence and things improved but still less then 40% possession. I then got an idea and swapped from Attack to Standard and possession and domination increased immediately, and I ended up winning 2-1 being the best team. The team played like I wanted them to all along.

Is Standard the new "go to" strategy? In FM13 I got a fluid switch between direct muscle football and patient passing out of an Attack strategy 343 with More Direct passing selected. In FM14 Attack seems to be just as gung-ho as Overload, except the runs, and tinkering to fix that just never worked consistently.

Interesting, i haven't tried standard this year. I use 'control' for my possession tactic and 'attacking' for my penetrating tactic.

Interesting, i haven't tried standard this year. I use 'control' for my possession tactic and 'attacking' for my penetrating tactic.

Well, I took away Pass Out of Defence but otherwise the 4321 has now given me three victories, two of them away - out of three attempts. Seems like a solid tactic. I like that the work/task division has increased a lot compared to the Attacking 4231 versions; the defensive roles are more diligent and careful, and the more attacking roles are the creative forces, but the whole team is still more compact when defending because their mentalities are less singlemindedly attacking. There is now much more space in the midfield when we're passing forward. Not getting near the amount of domination I had in Adelante, though, so I'll keep the 4231 until I get a better team.

I might even have a try with the less fluid suggestion, although I do like that the team attacks as a unit.

Yeah I made a narrow 4321 on Balanced and Very Fluid. Used the possession instructions and won 3-0

They shot 24 times and hit goal 6 times, 3 ccc's. I shot 5 times and hit goal 3 times.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/571/cbaj.png

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/42/6r7u.png

What made you choose Very Fluid? I'm interested because my thinking would be to discourage individual expression and movement when playing with a team like Oviedo?

What made you choose Very Fluid? I'm interested because my thinking would be to discourage individual expression and movement when playing with a team like Oviedo?

I have been using Very Fluid for years, and don't want to be on alert to do minor or major tweaks during a match in order to adjust my gameplan to the opponent's strengths and weaknesses. The players must do that themselves.

Besides, I'm in September/October and changing the fluidity would probably make my tactics very unfamiliar.

Well, the problem now is that I am taken seriously because of the good form, and the other teams are starting to play more defensively against me, letting me shoot in vain and then countering me to death.

So the efficiency has now turned the other way again.

Any tips on overcoming a defensive, vastly superior team when I don't really have exceptionally quick players yet? I am still experimenting with the same 4-3-2-1 tactic, for instance by sending the full backs more forward.

I have a team with :

GK : One very good (Julio Cesar), one very promising (Kapino).

Four quick descent in defense (not in dribbling) full backs.

Four tall, descent in defence (12+ posisioning, tackling, marking, strength etc.) Central Defenders.

Four descent in defence CMs/DMs with descent passing.

Four quick, dribblers and hard working wingers.

Two "trequartistas" with good passing, creativity, technique, off the ball.

Two all around (12+ pace, accelaration, finishing, strength, technique, composure, decisions) Strikers.

Can you describe me in simple or more words, what my core (because there are much more things to manage, i know) tactic should be so that i can have a solid approach? I dont want to win 6-0. I want just to be solid. I dont care if i loose sometimes or draw a lot more. Just to be solid.

I have a team with :

GK : One very good (Julio Cesar), one very promising (Kapino).

Four quick descent in defense (not in dribbling) full backs.

Four tall, descent in defence (12+ posisioning, tackling, marking, strength etc.) Central Defenders.

Four descent in defence CMs/DMs with descent passing.

Four quick, dribblers and hard working wingers.

Two "trequartistas" with good passing, creativity, technique, off the ball.

Two all around (12+ pace, accelaration, finishing, strength, technique, composure, decisions) Strikers.

Can you describe me in simple or more words, what my core (because there are much more things to manage, i know) tactic should be so that i can have a solid approach? I dont want to win 6-0. I want just to be solid. I dont care if i loose sometimes or draw a lot more. Just to be solid.

What is "solid"?

Is the aspiration to just be hard to break down? Don't you want to win the odd game?

As advised in General Discussion, please start a thread of your own and define exactly what you want, what you've tried, and what you think is failing.

What is "solid"?

Is the aspiration to just be hard to break down? Don't you want to win the odd game?

As advised in General Discussion, please start a thread of your own and define exactly what you want, what you've tried, and what you think is failing.

Also depends on what level he's playing at.

A bit of advice, as I have had some experience trying to set up a team to play this brand of football...

You will often hear that teams' mentality is linked to their predicted table finish, but this is generally not a good way to do things. For example playing as Fulham on "defensive" would probably be unwise because do they have the players to soak up intense pressure for 90 minutes? Nope. I would argue that the weaker a team is the more aggressive they need to be. That is not to say that Crystal Palace should necessarily should be "attacking" but, they should be looking to get stuck in and cause problems for the opposition. Hard tackling can be an equalizer between small clubs and top clubs (credit to SFraser for that).

A more fluid approach might be more beneficial because then your whole team is working together as a unit to accomplish your goal, as opposed to more rigid which is more specialized roles and sort of splits the team into bands like: defenders do the defending, etc.

It would be wise to accept your teams weaknesses but also embrace its strengths as much as possible. So if you're Stoke and you've got big physical players like Crouch / Arnautovic you should do everything you can to utilize them.

But the biggest thing is that you really cannot expect to win a title with such a smaller club. At some point realism sets in, no matter what tactic you've come up with. I know we've seen some people claim they've won a title right away with a super tactic or whatever but to me that is just BS. If you start a save with Stoke and think you're going to win the Premier League (barring any crazy circumstances) then you are probably nuts

I am currently working on the same kind of thing. Just got promoted, and not a whole lot of money to spend + I want to continue progressing my youth players. I wasn't even close to being the best team in League 1, got promoted via the play offs. I intend to use mainly defensive- counter tactics the up coming season.

I have a 4-5-1, (with DM and AML/R) and a 4-2-3-1.

Much deeper defensive line

Stand off oppenents (although you can probably do a better job of giving individual players instructions)

Pass in to space ( quick counters you don't want tippy tappy football)

Early Crosses ( When players are breaking quickly, you want the ball released quickly)

Key points

* Having slow defenders, especially central isn't such a problem because of how deep you are

* Having quick players in attack is very important

* Deep lying playmaker and BBM are very good roles in this system ( The Deep lying playmaker releases quick balls to start counters, box to box midfielder will get in to the box to score goals)

As said above, as a low rep team, teams will come out the blocks at you, if you can frustrate them for 20 mins half an hour, the breaks start coming. I have won so many games when the opposition had 20 shots + without as shot inside the area, and we have created 3-5 ccc, and scored 1 or more of them to win. It becomes quite addictive, and very funny when the opponents managers keep moaning about being unlucky.

A bit of advice, as I have had some experience trying to set up a team to play this brand of football...

You will often hear that teams' mentality is linked to their predicted table finish, but this is generally not a good way to do things. For example playing as Fulham on "defensive" would probably be unwise because do they have the players to soak up intense pressure for 90 minutes? Nope. I would argue that the weaker a team is the more aggressive they need to be. That is not to say that Crystal Palace should necessarily should be "attacking" but, they should be looking to get stuck in and cause problems for the opposition. Hard tackling can be an equalizer between small clubs and top clubs (credit to SFraser for that).

A more fluid approach might be more beneficial because then your whole team is working together as a unit to accomplish your goal, as opposed to more rigid which is more specialized roles and sort of splits the team into bands like: defenders do the defending, etc.

It would be wise to accept your teams weaknesses but also embrace its strengths as much as possible. So if you're Stoke and you've got big physical players like Crouch / Arnautovic you should do everything you can to utilize them.

But the biggest thing is that you really cannot expect to win a title with such a smaller club. At some point realism sets in, no matter what tactic you've come up with. I know we've seen some people claim they've won a title right away with a super tactic or whatever but to me that is just BS. If you start a save with Stoke and think you're going to win the Premier League (barring any crazy circumstances) then you are probably nuts

Yes I agree that parking the bus should never be plan #1. In order to win you'll need to create chances. At the same time, I'll have to admit that the team I got promoted with is not anywhere near BBVA standard. Most of the players are strong Adelante players and apart from some huge central defenders I do not have extreme qualities in the team at all. Still, thanks to the advice here + some reading and experimentation I am top half in January.

It frustrates me that each of the tactics I make are so specialized. When I am favourites to win I need the Counter 4231 tactic. When I am not I need the Standard 4321 tactic. Then there's the problem of even matches, dealing with Barca and Real (not!) and injuries, non-European international tournaments, early goals against and all the other stuff that ruins my game plan. I think part of the reason for this specialization is the ME, which still needs some tweaking.

Yes I agree that parking the bus should never be plan #1. In order to win you'll need to create chances. At the same time, I'll have to admit that the team I got promoted with is not anywhere near BBVA standard. Most of the players are strong Adelante players and apart from some huge central defenders I do not have extreme qualities in the team at all. Still, thanks to the advice here + some reading and experimentation I am top half in January.

It frustrates me that each of the tactics I make are so specialized. When I am favourites to win I need the Counter 4231 tactic. When I am not I need the Standard 4321 tactic. Then there's the problem of even matches, dealing with Barca and Real (not!) and injuries, non-European international tournaments, early goals against and all the other stuff that ruins my game plan. I think part of the reason for this specialization is the ME, which still needs some tweaking.

What ME tweaks do you think are needed? I can only think of set pieces right now. Otherwise it seems fine.

Overall though this is the plight of any team that is punching above its own weight class. It's fantastic you got promoted, but of course taking the next step is brutal. I always look at the Premier League for examples and look at Hull, sitting in 10th after promotion. That's really impressive, and their goal difference is much better than a lot of the teams below them.

On the other hand, Cardiff and Crystal Palace are really struggling and look like they're not going to avoid the drop. You could argue they're pretty similar to Hull in terms of quality of players but, maybe its a small difference that separates them? I don't know. So I think its entirely possible to do well but generally speaking any promoted team is really going to struggle for a while.

What ME tweaks do you think are needed? I can only think of set pieces right now. Otherwise it seems fine.

Overall though this is the plight of any team that is punching above its own weight class. It's fantastic you got promoted, but of course taking the next step is brutal. I always look at the Premier League for examples and look at Hull, sitting in 10th after promotion. That's really impressive, and their goal difference is much better than a lot of the teams below them.

On the other hand, Cardiff and Crystal Palace are really struggling and look like they're not going to avoid the drop. You could argue they're pretty similar to Hull in terms of quality of players but, maybe its a small difference that separates them? I don't know. So I think its entirely possible to do well but generally speaking any promoted team is really going to struggle for a while.

Mostly, it is the decision-making around both goals.

Too many opportunistic, low-percentage shots from angle and/or distance, and too many panicked clearances when easy passing options are on. These leads to many corners and throw-ins, which are then cleared (or there's a shot/header which is blocked) and off we go again!

The well known first-touch issue is also a bit frustrating, as well as the underhit short pass issue and the related try-to-pass-straight-through-a-player situations.

These are equal for both teams on the field, so it is not unfair, but the AI tactics tend to be well balanced and quite simple. In Adelante I played a quite advanced passing game with an Attack strategy and most of my tweaks were related to prevent the above from happening - I sometimes used all the possession/patience enhancing instructions trying to force my players to make the right decisions, but obviously the end result tactic was probably unbalanced. I think it is likely that many people struggling with FM14 also tries to "fix" these issues but end up destroying the coherency of their tactic.

The AI doesn't. Which is a problem when they employ the Attack strategy as well, like in this match:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/32/cxsx.png

The thing is, shot charts like the one posted above are more of a symptom than anything else. It shows that your players are deciding they have no other option than to just shoot (or perhaps the other options they have simply aren't as desirable or effective).

So the key is going to be figuring out why your players are shooting instead of finding a better opening. Usually this occurs when teams sit back and deny space, causing the other team to just hoof it at goal from distance, as there is nowhere else to go.

I don't see that as a ME issue one bit truthfully. I've experienced both ends of this, too many long shots, and plenty of great shots. The key will always be in your tactics.

Are your players making the proper runs? Are you stretching the defense and creating gaps? Is there any space to work with? Are players available for a pass? And, how do your instructions effect what is happening? Is your desired style of play leading to these type of shots?

I would say you must answer those questions to solve your problems.

The thing is, shot charts like the one posted above are more of a symptom than anything else. It shows that your players are deciding they have no other option than to just shoot (or perhaps the other options they have simply aren't as desirable or effective).

So the key is going to be figuring out why your players are shooting instead of finding a better opening. Usually this occurs when teams sit back and deny space, causing the other team to just hoof it at goal from distance, as there is nowhere else to go.

I don't see that as a ME issue one bit truthfully. I've experienced both ends of this, too many long shots, and plenty of great shots. The key will always be in your tactics.

Are your players making the proper runs? Are you stretching the defense and creating gaps? Is there any space to work with? Are players available for a pass? And, how do your instructions effect what is happening? Is your desired style of play leading to these type of shots?

I would say you must answer those questions to solve your problems.

That was the AI. I'm Oviedo. I sat back and denied space. That should never lead to full backs shooting from a narrower angle than the corner of the area when 4-5 comrades are storming into the box.