Diamond Wingbacks

Evening all,

I have decided that after working to build a tactic with no DM or AM strata players, I should try to create something with DM and AM strata players, just to see if I can.

Ladies and gentlemen, the prototype Diamond Wingbacks setup; I did those arrows and boxes myself, you can probably hardly tell.

The concept is simple:

Keeper distributes to the left BPD, who has the option of passing to his BPD companion, the DLP, or either wingback.

The wingbacks are THE engine behind this machine, they create crossing opportunities through their non-stop running from deep with the ball. They are the only source of width, and are expected to contribute defensively against opposition wide men.

With the wingbacks vacating their defensive responsibilities regularly, I need a positionally disciplined man like a DLP on Defend to sit in front of the defence and Close Down people in his half. He will sit tight, and play throughballs to the CM roles in front.

The AP is the designated play maker, and could be a key assist maker as he sits behind an offensive AM. The CM and AP on Support offer relatively high Closing Down, and will partially mitigate the attacking movement of the wingbacks. In the event that the opposition block my flanks to stop the wingbacks, there should be enough movement and passing variation centrally to offer an alternate path to goal.

At this stage, the CM role is one of the ones I doubt the most as he could end up moving into channels and disrupting the wingback; I may change him to a role with more restrictive wide play. He is currently selected as, along with the AP, he only runs with ball sometimes, so should hold a relatively consistent central position. A benefit of a narrow diamond is central strength, and I want to try to maximise that.

The Attacking Midfielder isn't a role I use much. I see this guy being more prolific than at least one of the strikers in front. As stated earlier, he should benefit from assists from the AP behind, and his offensive traits suit moving into space vacated by the DLF in front.

Up front, I like DLFs on Support as they offer great link play back to midfield. This should complement the Attacking Midfielder well and I foresee the DLF outscoring his Attacking strike partner. That striker partner is an AF. He'll play high and wide, dragging defenders out of position to create space for the AM to exploit. The AF is set as Target Man with a supply of Run Onto Ball. This will channel play towards him, increasing his opportunities to stretch the defence and create space for others.

Any thoughts? I've perused a lot of good threads about diamonds and in spite of a high number of them, there were no really consistent pieces of advice.

Will post a few shots of the first game I tried this in shortly.

First game was at home to Valencia and ended 5-0. The best goal was a decent representation of much of what I aspired to in the first post.

Screen one is at the point where the keeper passes to the BPD, and the red and blue boxes of the first post screenshot are clear, along with the wing backs already making moves forward. That early movement does trouble me a bit, as I'll struggle if I lose possession, and they are so advanced that they don't offer the passing options I wanted for the BPDs. The joy of a Balanced Style should mean that if I later decide to drop them back a strata, they'll still play exactly the same way.

18 seconds later after a bit of slow interplay, the red defensive box remains structurally sound and comfortably nullifies any attacking threat. The blue box has rotated a bit, with the increased CF of the AP (and his Gets Forward Whenever Possible PPM) plain to see. Number 11 is the Attacking Midfielder, with the DLF number 7 some way behind him.

Final shot is to show the speed of transition overall of the team, 10 seconds on from the previous shot where we had four players pretty much on the half way line. The wingback is about to supply a goalscoring cross to the Attacking Midfielder.

The wingback has attracted 3 defenders (they are all heading towards him!), leaving 5 Valencia players in the box to mark my 6.

The red defensive box remains firmly in place.

All five assists were from wingbacks, with the AM netting three. I will be interested to see what happens when I play a side who try to stop the wingbacks. There's enough creativity in the middle to focus the play centrally with Shouts, so that would be the approach I'd take.

Nice one. Exactly the tactics I want to implement in my new Bayern save as soon as Ribery and Robben get rusty.

Nice one. Exactly the tactics I want to implement in my new Bayern save as soon as Ribery and Robben get rusty.

Don't get excited, there's still some tinkering to be done!

I want to fiddle with the wingbacks to see if they are as effective when dropped positionally to the DL/DR slots.

I'll do this to give my BPDs more passing options when our keeper has the ball.

I also need to figure out what it is that I want the slot currently filled by my CM (Support) to do.

The other midfielders have clear responsibilities and they do them well. Lots of teams have a Jack Of All Trades kind of player, so it may be that a CM (Support) is perfect given the existing mix of roles in my midfield.

I certainly don't want another DLP (two low mentality midfielders didn't work for me in previous tactical experiments), I already have an AP and am wary about BBM and BWM roles.

Don't get excited, there's still some tinkering to be done!

I want to fiddle with the wingbacks to see if they are as effective when dropped positionally to the DL/DR slots.

I'll do this to give my BPDs more passing options when our keeper has the ball.

I also need to figure out what it is that I want the slot currently filled by my CM (Support) to do.

The other midfielders have clear responsibilities and they do them well. Lots of teams have a Jack Of All Trades kind of player, so it may be that a CM (Support) is perfect given the existing mix of roles in my midfield.

I certainly don't want another DLP (two low mentality midfielders didn't work for me in previous tactical experiments), I already have an AP and am wary about BBM and BWM roles.

I'm far from getting excited, don't worry.

I'm thinking about playing the DMC as an Anchor Man to provide cover on either side for the WB rushing forward. I also want to play the MCL as DLP(s) to get a very creative midfield couple (DLP(s) and AP(s)).

I've experimented with this formation a fair bit. What I've found is offensively, it can be excellent. At times, i did struggle to free up space in the midfield, but i like your combination of roles, definitely better than mine were! Against certain formations and better sides though, I find the wings to be very vulnerable unless the wing backs are brilliant. I'm assuming you are a long way into the game herring and they are all top quality regens?

I've experimented with this formation a fair bit. What I've found is offensively, it can be excellent. At times, i did struggle to free up space in the midfield, but i like your combination of roles, definitely better than mine were! Against certain formations and better sides though, I find the wings to be very vulnerable unless the wing backs are brilliant. I'm assuming you are a long way into the game herring and they are all top quality regens?

I'm in 2022 and the players (all newgens) are good, which may mask how good the underlying tactic is or isn't.

I agree that the wings could be exploited; in my flat 4-3-3 I didn't really get exposed on the flanks, but this may be because the wingbacks operated in a flat back four. I will be experimenting with moving them back in this formation to see if they remain as effective going forward, and also to see if they offer more passing options for my BPDs when we have the ball deep in our half.

j4y_z got me thinking about the combination of a DLP and AP in the CM strata, but with the DLP mentality being so low, I think the roles could split and not be as solid centrally - does anyone have to hand what the mentality gap is between a DLP and AP? (I'm at work).

I also think Anchors "do a job", but nothing more. For me, a DLP (Defend) has the discipline to carry out an Anchor type role, but also has the qualities to be a good creative pivot (never thought I'd use that term!) deeper down the pitch.

My main quandary is whether to keep a CM on Support. All of the other players have specific contributions to make to the overall team, whereas this guy is there to be a "Jack Of All Trades". That isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just want to squeeze everything possible out of the basic setup. I have never used two APs side by side, and that may be worth a look. I've never really used BWM or BBM roles much, but when looking last night, can distinctly remember opting for the CM over a BBM.

BBM needs a beast of a player to work in my experience, I'm also not a fan of BWMs either. I've had success from two APs, although I tended to have two different duties (one on support, one on attack) which created a good pivot. It might actually work well in that formation as your am will be getting forward. Not sure about the DLF if you were to do that though!

I've had success from two APs, although I tended to have two different duties (one on support, one on attack) which created a good pivot. It might actually work well in that formation as your am will be getting forward. Not sure about the DLF if you were to do that though!

Theoretically, swapping the DLF and AF positions should mean that any forward runs from an Attacking AP wouldn't be obstructed. The AP on Support would be behind the DLF, which would bring them closer together and probably work rather well too.....

Definitely worth ago. In fact, I'm going to try it tonight!

Great thread RTHerringbone, you've inspired me.....................

Played just one game with it, and that was against Chelsea. We won 3-0 and really performed well, though didn't create loads of chances. We restricted Chelsea to just eight shots, five out which were deemed to be "long range" efforts.

Obviously the strategy and philosphy is different to yours, but with the "Control" shout in my 4-4-2 thread it is easily changed to suit how the match situation dictates.

Intriguing and worth persisting with.

Great thread RTHerringbone, you've inspired me.....................

I was hoping you'd look at this as I was looking at your 4-4-2 thread for ideas about the MC duo when setting it up originally.

How are you finding your DM and MC combination? I'm was testing an AP (S) where you have Powell but have changed to the same as you, because the DLP is more static (it's a good thing) and so allows me to keep numbers up in the centre, which is what I want.

If I had wide midfielders, I'd use exactly the same shape as that. You're fortunate that you have flexible players so could pair Neymar with RVP in my shape, with Rooney in an Attacking Midfielder role if you wanted, which I suspect he'd be pretty good at.

glyndav - tinker with an AP (S) and a DLP (S) in that MC role, would be interesting to see if you arrive at the same conclusion as I have.

Herring, I am giving this a shot tonight as well as the formation really suits by current squad.

I was hoping you'd look at this as I was looking at your 4-4-2 thread for ideas about the MC duo when setting it up originally.

How are you finding your DM and MC combination? I'm was testing an AP (S) where you have Powell but have changed to the same as you, because the DLP is more static (it's a good thing) and so allows me to keep numbers up in the centre, which is what I want.

If I had wide midfielders, I'd use exactly the same shape as that. You're fortunate that you have flexible players so could pair Neymar with RVP in my shape, with Rooney in an Attacking Midfielder role if you wanted, which I suspect he'd be pretty good at.

The two DLP's, (at DMC and MC), were at times a touch too close together, so I was thinking myself to change Powell in DLP-S role to an AP-S and see how that works. It would also suite Powell a bit more aswell.

And in your shape, I couldn't play Rooney................I sold him at the end of season one.

The two DLP's, (at DMC and MC), were at times a touch too close together.

Strangely, I've switched from AP (S) to DLP (S) in the MC strata for the very reason of their closeness; they aren't overly close (yet) in my game, but are closer than the DLP (S) and AP (S) were. As a result, I get some fantastic quick passing triangles in the middle.

Different players with different attributes and PPMs in different strategies will obviously respond differently. With Counter, your players when building an attack start deeper and closer than mine, and this may or may not be why they were sometimes fairly close.

I've now used this tactic in just 3 games, with the only changes from post one being the DLF and AF swapping positions, with the AP (A) in the MC strata behind the AF, and a DLP (S) immediately to his right.

Something has become very apparent watching these games: against a flat back four, especially tactics without a DM, my Attacking Midfielder is a devastating Spare Man. In two of the games, I've used the same guy and he's had 24 shots (14 on target) scoring two hat tricks, with ratings of 9.6 and 9.7.

Why does it work? The two wingbacks regularly peg back the opposition fullbacks. The two central strikers occupy the central defenders, with the AF dragging his marker wide to create space. With no dedicated DM to block him, the Attacking Midfielder has multiple opportunities to time his run and belt the ball home unchallenged.

Strangely, I've switched from AP (S) to DLP (S) in the MC strata for the very reason of their closeness; they aren't overly close (yet) in my game, but are closer than the DLP (S) and AP (S) were. As a result, I get some fantastic quick passing triangles in the middle.

Different players with different attributes and PPMs in different strategies will obviously respond differently. With Counter, your players when building an attack start deeper and closer than mine, and this may or may not be why they were sometimes fairly close.

Yes I was thinking the same, so may switch to a Standard strategy like I have wiht my 4-4-2 and just influence the style with the shouts.

The problem I'm having is trying to implement it. After the Chelsea game there is an international break and then we face Arsenal away, so blending a new tactic isn't my highest priority as such as this early stage of the season.

I like your ideas here. I use 3 DCs with 2 WBs and 3 CMs in my Wigan save. We are getting better with each match. Sometimes I feel my forwards and midfielders are too static but still working on it. Good work.

I'm having a lot of success with this with the midfield trio being a dlp and two APs (one support, one attack). Previously, I haven't had the midfield right but that seems to be creating a really good midfield pivot. The AM is scoring for fun as well, with the DLF and AF dragging the defence all over the place.

I'm playing with a fluid philosophy and it is working well as it is not allowing the other team any real space at all. It's the one area of FM that I haven't properly experimented with since the TC came in - I tend to stick to balances or fluid.

Tom,

Are you using this formation with the team settings from your 442 thread, so playing with rigid? How is it going?

Tom,

Are you using this formation with the team settings from your 442 thread, so playing with rigid? How is it going?

The setting are in the screenshot I have posted.

As for how it's going, I've only played one more game with it so far, and in the that I changed the DLP-Support at CM to a AP-Support, (still with Powell in that position). The game resulted in a 4-0 win at home to Nottingham Forrest, with the DLP, (Javier Hernandez), hitting a hattrick.

The issue I have is that I haven't really got the squad suited to play this system. For example, there's only Carrick who can realistically play the DLP-Defend role at DM. A player who has been excellent for me, Nani, is almost redundant as an IF and I dont want to let him go yet as he's a super player. Thus I'm not sure that I can persevere with it at the minute.

I'm having a lot of success with this with the midfield trio being a dlp and two APs (one support, one attack). Previously, I haven't had the midfield right but that seems to be creating a really good midfield pivot. The AM is scoring for fun as well, with the DLF and AF dragging the defence all over the place.

That's interesting, I stopped using two APs because their higher mentalities created a degree of separation from the DLP when watching games and looking at average positions. However, I only made my change to preempt any future problems - there were no real issues caused by that separation in games, but I could foresee situations where it might have been an issue later. As such, I reckon you can probably get away both both combinations really.

Glad to read that you're seeing results with your AM too. The players I alternate as AM used to be Treqs in my 4-3-3, having been positionally retrained from AM positions and roles. They have very well rounded games and are benefiting from the movement of the AF diagonally up the pitch and the DLF vertically down it.

Two more things I noticed last night:

1. The tactic demands a LOT from the wingbacks. The role demands stamina, but you need to stay on top of their condition; rotation is very important or they will be frazzled very quickly

2. Again relating to wingbacks - I am not going to drop them back to the DL/DR positions. When we build an attack from the keepers' distribution, the wingbacks are quite advanced, but only because the opposition is relatively withdrawn and wingbacks need to be advanced in this phase of play in order to offer an Attacking outlet. In general play, critically, this tactic sees us regain possession centrally on a regular basis, that's a perk of a narrow midfield diamond. Where possession is gained in this manner, the wingbacks hold far more conservative positions, and so I'm comfortable that I can't get easily exploited in this scenario.

"1. The tactic demands a LOT from the wingbacks. The role demands stamina, but you need to stay on top of their condition; rotation is very important or they will be frazzled very quickly"

That's where I struggled previously too herring and why I didn't persist with this formation previously. Stamina and pace are the two that I have found to be key attributes. Get the right players though, and they can contribute a lot of assists. My LWB I has got a few from whipping in a ball to my AF. That's the best thing with this tactic, the amount of different possibilities there are for creating chances. Regarding the midfield trio, I guarantee I will be trying something different in a few games time. Part of the problem I have personally is I can't stop myself tinkering!

Tom,

Fair point about Nani and Carrick. Rafael would be great as the RWB though! Overall team though, looking at your thread, absolutely I agree 442 is best. That is probably still my most used formation, to be honest, I always end up going back to it in any FM. I'm a sucker for wing play and two strikers.

The changes mentioned a post or two back are depicted below - just a switch of positions up front and some Role tweaks in the CM line.

What I want this post to reflect is how PPMs really influence the game.

Two screens below are from the same game, which we won comfortably against lower league opposition in the Spanish Cup.

Both goals were scored by my AM, so that's now 4 hat tricks in 6 games from AMs using this tactic.

The way he scores is as detailed in posts above, and as is visible in these shots - the opposition defence is occupied by both wingbacks and a DLF in both shots, with a DLP in Support distracting in the first shot (Gets Forward Often PPM), and the AF in the second. The AM has nobody closing down quickly enough, and he belts home from 18 yards in both cases (long shots attribute of just 12, but high finishing (18) and composure (17).

First screen:

The defensive box is shown again, just to show that players on a Defend Duty do not allow themselves to get over excited in a Standard Style, exactly what I want.

Colour coding is consistent through these two shots, so:

Yellow square is the AP (A)

White kite is the DLF (S)

Blue circles are the wingbacks

Green star is the AF (A)

Pink circle is the DLP (S)

Second screen:

As a reminder:

Yellow square is the AP (A)

White kite is the DLF (S)

Blue circles are the wingbacks

Green star is the AF (A)

Pink circle is the DLP (S)

You'll see the AP (A) is the most withdrawn midfielder apart from the DLP (D) (who is at the top of the defensive box).

Why? A combination of the fact he only runs from deep sometimes, and that he has no progressive movement PPMs.

The DLF (S) is consistently advanced for a lowish mentality role with generally neutral attacking settings isn't he? Why?

In my previous flat 4-3-3, he was an Advanced Forward, and his PPMs include Likes To Beat Offside Trap.

An AF (A) with no PPMs would play high and wide ordinarily. He is stretching play in the first shot, but is more conservative in the second. Why?

No idea! Probably the high CF as no PPMs affect this, and the build up was almost identical to the first goal, it's just one of those things. You can't expect players to robotically play the same way in every game in similar circumstance. There probably is a true logical reason for it, but I'm happy that I can't diagnose why this is the case here.

A DLP (S) has neutral or zeroed Offensive settings (barring through balls), so what is he doing as the most advanced player in the first shot?

Runs With Ball Through Centre and Gets Forward Wherever Possible PPMs. He played CM (A) in my previous tacticand was trained accordingly.

Hopefully this will help increase awareness of the sensitivity of PPMs and the depth of their potential influence.

I hadn't really paid attention to them before, and hopefully the variety in the two screens above show this well.

Because I've changed from one tactical approach to another on this save, I have to live with the fact that I'll have a transitional period where players need to unlearn some PPMs, and relearn some new ones.

If you have a clear vision of your tactical approach in mind, train PPMs accordingly as they can make a HUGE difference to your play - they are the things which allow individuality to be expressed within the relative bounds of the Tactics Creator.

If you can find the right player, can i recommend dropping your DM to SW(libero Attack). I have been playing this way for the past 7 season on my Barnsley save and now ive found a top class regen who can play the sw position, I'm flying. Defensively I'm alot more sold(23 clean sheets as opposed to an average of 10 per season before the change) and when he has space to move into, can be a deadly part of the attacking phase.

@Codeye I'm deliberately using a diamond as the basis of the tactic.

I have experimented with a Libero in earlier tactics, but it isn't consistent with what I want to achieve here.

Defensive stability absolutely isn't an issue; we've conceded 1 goal in 17 La Liga games.

Liberos are something of an enigma for me and I'm now firmly converted to diamonds.

If I had the time or inclination, I'd build something around the following shape purely for the challenge of it, rather than based on any firm tactical vision. I haven't entered the roles or duties I'd use, just whacking the image up to show where positions would be populated:

Double Diamond Libero

This would cover every horizontal strata available, so that's an appeal. It couldn't create as much space for the AM as the version without a Libero, but I'd probably try this with an AF on Attack up front first. The DM role would have to change to avoid blocking the Libero. Overall, it probably wouldn't need much to change to begin to function coherently, but I'm certain it would lose some attacking potency.

Pah, switching between the 4-4-2 I have set up and the formation I have posted in this thread, I have won thirteen out of thirteen in the league this term, conceding just one.

Must say the tactic I have set up based on this thread has produced some terrific football, while to my surprise also being as solid as a rock.

Pah, switching between the 4-4-2 I have set up and the formation I have posted in this thread, I have won thirteen out of thirteen in the league this term, conceding just one.

Must say the tactic I have set up based on this thread has produced some terrific football, while to my surprise also being as solid as a rock.

I'll stick my neck out and say that's title winning form!

How do you find your two tactics compare statistically?

Compared to my flat 4-3-3, I'm seeing consistently higher possession, pass completion, tackles won and a higher percentage of clear cut and half chances relative to overall shots.

I'd say I average 30-40% of my shots being clear cut or half chances, which means we are creating high quality opportunities.

I'll stick my neck out and say that's title winning form!

How do you find your two tactics compare statistically?

Compared to my flat 4-3-3, I'm seeing consistently higher possession, pass completion, tackles won and a higher percentage of clear cut and half chances relative to overall shots.

I'd say I average 30-40% of my shots being clear cut or half chances, which means we are creating high quality opportunities.

I'd be wary about paying attention to the CCC's stat - bit buggy by all accounts.

The one thing I have noticed is that my passing percentage is higher in my third of the pitch, which I assume is because of the triangle formed between the CB's and the DM.

As you know I was a bit concerned about switching to my Wingbacks formation permanently as I didn't think one of my better performers from the previous two seasons, Nani, would fit into the side as he's not great at AMR-Inside Foward, mainly because of his PPM's.

Well, I was wrong-ish. He's missed a fair bit of football this season because of injury and my relutance to play him in the system, but he has been pretty decent there. He's started eight times at AMR, averaging 7.33, and scoring four goals.

Something to ponder. Just wish I could get rid of his "Shoots From Distance" PPM.

The one thing I have noticed is that my passing percentage is higher in my third of the pitch, which I assume is because of the triangle formed between the CB's and the DM.

I spent a bit of time yesterday trying to see if this was an issue. The risk is that if you're making more passes at the back, you're creating more chances for players who aren't always natural passers, the BPDs, to make mistakes. Fortunately for me, my BPDs have only made one mistake all season and that didn't come as a result of messing about with the ball.

Two other things I considered. Does retaining possession at the back lose attacking impetus? Am I just playing tippy-tappy football when a more direct pass might catch the opposition out whilst they're regrouping? Again, I ruled this out because this is the essence of the way I'm trying to play and with Passing on Default, when a more direct pass is available, we do generally take it.

The final thing was the reverse of the above. Does passing it about actually create opportunities as well as possession? Yes - whilst we pass the ball around looking for a suitable option occasionally we draw the opposition on to us. When the opposition Press Us they do so centrally, as the possession is held in that BPD-BPD-DLP triangle. If the opposition AMs or CMs press this area, I'm left with two CMs and an AM ready to pounce in acres of space.

Statistical overview of a full season with this set up.

Shot conversion into goals was 15%

Shots on target 46%

Pass completion 84%

Tackles won 85%

Headers won 70%

Cross completion 18%

La Liga goals scored per game 2.97

La Liga goals conceded per game 0.18

Goals Types are overwhelmingly placed shots, with a fairly equal distribution of goals from the DLP and wing backs, with the bulk of goals being scored via central interplay between the AP, AM, DLF and AF.

This is further demonstrated with the Goal Assists tab, where the crosses essentially correlate to total number of assists from the wing backs and the passes are from central areas.

I hope no one minds if I bump this. First, to RTHerringbone, thanks for the thread, it's great! I'm thinking of following you into this formation in a season or 2. I say "following" because this past season I used your flat 4-3-3 and had very nice success with it. But I have a couple of transfers lined up for what I really hope will be 2 (future) world class wingbacks, one on each side, and I like the idea of going to a formation that puts them to greatest use. The fact that you transitioned out of your own 4-3-3 and did better with this is also a great sign.

Now, to my question (to my question! *clinks glass*). I'm playing an Ajax save inspired by Cleon's, in which I only buy youth and play them early and often. I've just completed my 3rd season there, so it's now 2015. When I started looking at how to adapt my team to this tactic, I went through each player I had and put them in what I felt was the most natural slot. I found I was very comfortable with all the slots except 1, the DLP(S) in central midfield. The starter would be Branco van den Boomen, who also played in the DLP spot in your 4-3-3. I know what to expect of him in that role and it's respectable enough, but the assistant I trust most says he's playing near his cap and I just don't think he's quite good enough. The second player is a newgen. He's got good physical stats apart from jumping, especially quickness. His mental and technical skills are average, but a nice distribution for a DLP, with lots of 12s and 13s in the relevant areas. Only 7 in dribbling though, which shunted him away from the AP spot.

So to make a long story short, both the players I have in mind for the spot are ok but not thrilling. So I've spent quite some time going through the players my scouts know about. Money is no real object because I have a 30M transfer budget plus more than 100k in wage room I could shift plus another 10M or some coming in from players I plan to sell. But, I can't find a player that really excites me. To finally get to the part I want to ask about, could you tell me more about the player you used in that DLP(S) spot? Did you compromise on on relevant attributes, and if so where? I was thinking I could give up on Marking, for example (perhaps with a plan to focus training there) and maybe find a player to buy.

Thanks for any thoughts anyone can share, and thanks again to RT for the tactics!

Hey, Trep. After zooming in really close to the diagram, its a DLP defend.

Both your players seem pretty suited. I rarely sign players anymore who don't excite me, so I wouldn't waste money on a player that you don't go 'wow I want him on my team'. As that usually is a recipe for feeling underwhelmed, not giving them game time, and watching them exit on a transfer fairly swiftly.

A good model for the kind of player that this system requires, from the screenshots of the DM sitting infront of the back two is Claude Makelele, you are looking for someone who is reasonably creative, who can bring the ball out of defense and distribute it the the more creative player in front.

With the DLP support ahead of him, in a Xabi Alonso-esque long range passing role, you don't need somebody who can play a dreamball, just somebody who can keep it all ticking over tidily. Players with the PPM plays a 'simple passing game' would be handy in this respect, though if needs be you could tone the players passing with instructions.

Hey ModernLefty, thanks a bunch for your reply. I was actually referring to the DLP(S) in the central midfield spot, the one occupied by Guitart in the screenshot in post 24. For the DLP(D) in the DM slot I have an overabundance and someone is probably getting sold. I have 4 guys for that spot, Fabian Sporkslede and 3 newgens. One of the newgens is a homegrown guy that I got in the first youth intake, and he's going to be awesome. I think he will get the bulk of the time this season. Anyway, the point is, that's what pushed Boomer up to the M© spot, because I have lots of DMs and not many DLP types for M©. Also, I forgot to mention that I try to keep 3 players for every slot in my tactic, one of which is ideally in the U19 team, getting pressed into rotation duty in case of injury. So the situation is that I need a 3rd DLP(S) for the M© slot anyway, and the first 2 aren't really wowing me to begin with. In terms of actually having coverage there for the season, I have a number of guys who could do a decent job, especially if I don't expect much defensive work. It's more about my self-imposed rule of 33 total players, making sure the pipeline is strong at all times.

On the passing style I think you make a really good point. At the beginning the vision I had for Boomer was as a through ball machine. He has the creativity and passing for it, and I taught him "tries killer balls". But your post made me realize it was probably a mistake. For one thing his Flair (10) really holds him back, and his Technique (13) somewhat also. He completed 85% of his passes this season but only averaged about 1 Key Pass per game. More generally, being Ajax and the top team in the league, not many opponents want to play a high line against me (rightly so as I'd rip them apart in the space in behind). So yeah, I think I made a mistake with his PPMs and how I tried to get him to play.

Sorry, you even made it extra clear, apologies for poor reading.

Umm, well the ideal is just a really superb passer of the ball, you don't strictly need a through ball merchant, though a good DLP should be able to do it, because hopefully that job should also be handled by the AP. The players don't need to be super quick or strong. Just a player with a superb eye for a long pass, Anticipation, and composure on the ball, and maybe abit of the Modric ability to take the ball from deep skip past a couple of opponents, to find some space to make a pass in, but primarily you want them to link up play for the entire team, spread the ball to the flanks. Be there to receive it and move play on.

So just a small role then!

Trepanted, glad it's working for you.

I only ended up with a DLP (S) after trying and failing with an AP (S) in that slot.

I chose a DLP (S) purely because I'm obsessed about gaps in central midfield, and the final combination worked (two APs in the CM line were too separate from the DLP (D).

It isn't really a critical role in terms of its overall playing style, it just seemed the best mentality fit for me to keep my shape after trying out a couple of things.

ModernLefty has things fairly well assumed in terms of the style of players best suited to the two DLP roles, though my image of a DLP (D) is more of a Carrick than a Makelele - the focus is technique and creativity ahead of defensive nous. The Defend Duty just ensures that he operates in the area of the pitch where I need him.

With regard to your selection quandary, I'd be tempted to try the promising newgen as you seem unconvinced by Branco van den Boomen.

However, you mention that you have loads of players suited to DLP (D), not so many for DLP (S) - check out the ideal attributes again as the differences between the demands of the roles is pretty limited. I'm certain that one of your four DLP (D) candidates could easily handle a Support Duty.

For all of you trying this, if you have a wingback that can dribble and has pace then you should seriously consider having them cut inside. I have two players capable of this and they devaste defences when they run at them. I have Walker (who generally stays wide but can cut in if needs be) and I have re-trained Ayew to LB and he is legendary there.

In relation to RTH, I'd look at it where you have your forward moving to the flanks. He will drag the defence out and then your WB will run into it.

In relation to RTH, I'd look at it where you have your forward moving to the flanks. He will drag the defence out and then your WB will run into it.

Good point, and you're right.

I've actually moved on to a new save now and no longer use this tactic.

I've evolved to a 4-3-1-2 which is a minor modification to a flat 4-3-3 which worked well for me.

I'm not sure how or why, but your observation was particularly prevalent initially in my 4-3-1-2, so the attacking wingback on the same side as my AF (A) became a FB (Automatic), and I manually tweaked the wide play of a CM (A) on the same side to Normal, to avoid the default Moves Into Channels.

I've been using a striker-less variant of a diamond wingback formation for the past few seasons over on a youth challenge, I've already made a few minor changes for this upcoming season, like switching the keeper to a sweeper keeper, and the defenders for Ball Playing Defenders, but it's pretty much as is here.

ModernLefty has things fairly well assumed in terms of the style of players best suited to the two DLP roles, though my image of a DLP (D) is more of a Carrick than a Makelele - the focus is technique and creativity ahead of defensive nous. The Defend Duty just ensures that he operates in the area of the pitch where I need him.

RTH fair enough, that's my inner Mourinho tendencies coming out there, I rarely feel comfortable without somebody I consider a true defensive holder/workhorse, though even I've shifted from a true holder to a more Khedira-esque box to box workhorse role.

This excellent thread by Cleon got me thinking: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/352483-The-Chalkboard-Diaries

Cleon loves dominating play through having weight of numbers centrally. One way he achieves this is in a strikerless formation which frees up players to be played elsewhere.

In this Diamond Wingbacks formation, the role of the strikers is as much to create space for the AM, as it is to be an attacking threat themselves.

What, I wonder, would happen if I withdrew those roles back to the AMC line. The aim is obviously to draw the opposition defence forward, and to then have sufficient attacking prowess and movement from the MC and AM lines to capitalise on any defensive confusion.

Now originally, I wanted to use 2 CM and 3 AM players, but with Cleon's principle for domination in mind, I've initially set up as above.

This is a first try at the combination of roles and duties so I may refine things, but the essence is:

Sweeper Keeper - I just like these guys, and it allows me to close gaps from GK to DC if playing up the Strategy scale

Ball Playing Defenders - as well documented, I like to control play as much as possible, and the best place for this to start is with careful considered play from the back. Note that the keeper distributes via a quick throw to the left BPD

Wingbacks. Initially setting up the left wingback on Automatic Duty to give some sort of defensive consideration. The CM (A) and IF (A) in front are more aggressive than the DLP (S) and AP (A) on the other side, so the wingback on that side is set to Attack, which will also generate movement between the lines

Defensive Midfielder on Defend. A simple and key role to offer more defensive presence and simpler play than my usual preferred DLP (D) in this slot

The CM trio are tricky to set up, as I need to avoid crowding and conflicting runs to the AMC line and sideways to the wingbacks.

Currently using a DLP (S) to offer a deep pivot and a degree of defensive solidity on the same side as the attacking wingback.

His wide play will be limited and so won't conflict with the Attacking Wingback, and he won't run with the ball to conflict with the AP (A) in front

The AP (S) is selected to offer slightly higher mentality than the DLP, but also runs from deep, which are not seen with DLPs.

His wide play is normal and I view him as a forward thinking player, so he won't interfere with his MC colleagues.

It will be important to see how he interacts with his fellow AP in the AMC line, as whilst their mentalities, CF and runs are different, all other elements are the same. They may be too similar

The final CM slot is a CM (A) which is a favourite role and duty combination of mine. He is liable to move into channels which may conflict with the wingback on the outside, but as wide play is a tendency rather than a general style, I am optimistic this will work. He'll offer forward runs often (so I have forward runs of Rarely, Sometime and Often across the MC line), and is the third player in ths line to try through balls often to supply the AMCs

"Up Front" I have an AP (A) and IF (A). The IF was selected as his runs from deep and running with the ball are Often, so he will be the main player stretching the opposition defence. These settings clearly make him less likely to crowd the MC line behind. In a narrow position like this, his wide play is normal, which again won't conflict with the wingback on his side

The AP (A) was vying with an AM (A). In the end, I chose AP as he shouldn't roam as much as an AM, and his wide play is normal, so won't interfere with the attacking wing back.

An AM also has many similar offensive settings to those of the IF, so I was keen to avoid being one dimensional in this area

Game one was a pre-season friendly against Inter at the San Siro:

Considering this is our first pre-season game and tactic familiarity levels are average, I'm absolutely delighted by it. Inter played 4-4-2, I played Standard and Exploited the middle, where I outnumbered them considerably. Our goals came from sheer weight of numbers, which lead to a free kick, a penalty, and a penalty box scramble.

Strangely enough, I have a Libero in mind for an alternative to my shape, literally just moving the DM role back (I find that DM players often have ideal Libero attributes).

It has been interesting to read your and Cleon's comments about Stoppers in a back three, definitely something I'll utilise as it is certainly logical.

I'll need to tweak my CM roles to get this to work, but the fact I can do this without rebuilding my squad on my Barca save makes it very tempting...

What I like about your setup is that it is more defensively robust than mine. If you look at my setup, you can probably guess that there's a trio of 2 DCs and the DM back, then a deep DLP. Pretty much everyone else pushes on which isn't terribly balanced when we have the ball. Fortunately we don't lose the ball often, which I attribute purely to the central strength in numbers. For possession freaks, my tip is to use three CMs.

All this back 3 love, my 2 pupils are growing up

I also often retrain DMC's as the Libero. Some wingers can make great ones too because they tend to have similar attributes.

All this back 3 love, my 2 pupils are growing up

With a Libero, you retain a DM role Cleon. Is this purely to pick up central runners who breach your MC duo?

I'm optimistic that with the right MC trio I wouldn't need a DM, which would also mean I wouldn't have to worry about creating space for the Libero.

In Tom's setup he has no DMs and only two MCs. Could this be an issue against a narrow Man City 4-2-3-1? Whilst 2 of those would sit, the 3 outnumber Tom's MC duo, but then have to contend with two Stoppers and then a Libero; three lines of defence really.

I'm getting into this Libero setup tonight for a couple of hours.

As a reminder, my thought processes are largely driven by my current squad profile (having played with a flat 4-3-3 and the original formation in this thread, I have NO attacking wide midfielders - not even MC strata wide midfielders).

I'm also influenced/inspired by Cleon's latest Chalkboard Diary Thread, and am also conscious of tomtuck01's development of a Libero formation utlising wingbacks, but a different MC and AMC setup.

My provisional setup is here:

Cleon (my squad but the same roles, duties and Team Instrctions from the Chalkboard Diaries Main Thread Post #3 - where Cleon explicitly states ignore the roles - so just look at the shape):

tomtuck01, as per his own post earlier in this thread, but again with my squad:

As stated earlier, I'm looking to drop some DM players back to the Libero role, here are my candidates:

He's Argentine and only 23 and clearly needs to improve his dribbling for the role. Not fussed about jumping as the Stoppers in front can tackles any aerial threat that comes my way.

Next fella is German and 25, so has limited scope to develop his dribbling. I'm sure he can be relatively competent in the role:

Smith is English and just 22. As with most of my DMs, he is lacking the dribbling, heading and jumping stats to truly fit the Libero role, but I'll focus on dribbling:

Last, but by no means least, is my 17 year old option. More for the future than straight away, but he has exceptional stats now and just needs to develop some mental, dribbling and marking areas to suit the role to a tee.

All of the DMs clearly need to retrain positionally. Fortunately Paccor is already an accomplished DC so shouldn't be too hard a switch for him to make.

He will definitely be one of my Liberos, and I think I'll go with Turk as my rotation option, leaving the other two guys for my CM (D) role.

Always nice when a plan works;

The only change I have made from the original tactical set up at this point is to set our default passing to Shorter. As Cleon will most likely know, I like to keep hold of the ball. Counter attacking with shorter passing still works, but we now keep the ball that bit better.

We only had three shots, (two on target), in this game, but we restricted Bayern to nine. Five of which were from outside the box, and four of them were from far enough out to be classed as "Long Shots". All of our attempts came from inside the area.

I was surprised at how well we did defensively as Bayern are a ferocious team at home, but I have learnt so much from this game, the main thing being the virtue of man marking.

My WB's were asked to man-mark Ribery (AML) and Robben (AMR) respectively, and in Opposition Instructions I said to show Robben on to his right foot. Boy did these things work; between them they completed just 28 of 37 attempted passes and didn't manage to penetrate our box with their dribbling once.

I also had my LCB, Subotic, man-mark Falcao. He managed just one shot, which came from 30 odd yards, and barely made any kind of impact on the game. His final rating of 6.4 speaks for its self.

Any issues with having just two MCs yet?

I imagine Bayern used a 4-2-3-1 which in terms of shape threatens your lack of DM and MC numbers more than most.

That was my only instinctive reservation about your tactic.

I only played about five games last night but a pattern emerged of high possession and starving the opposition of chances.

It is also clear to see the confusion caused by the lack of conventional strikers. I often saw defenders reluctantly stepping up, only to be passed around and exploited. With your shape there are plenty of passing triangles available. I might see what Short passing achieves for me later.

The Libero directly assisted a couple of goals with passes in the final third which is great to see.

I agree that the correct application of specific man marking is very effective.

Interesting to hear you successfully marked wingers with your wingbacks, that's handy to know with my lack of wide players.

My only general changes to date are setting the BPDs to CDs (I am a bit doubtful about having all of the back three with increased CF). GK distribution is now defender collect and pointed at the Libero.

Of my retrained players, the Liberos remain red, but one of my four "strikers" being trained as AMC is already orange.

Very quality thread here RT.

I have a question: Throughout this thread a flat 4-3-3 has been mentioned. Where would I find the discussion on this?

Cheers Mark.

The 4-3-3 thread is here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/347172-The-seven-and-a-half-year-itch

Post #39 has the final setup. It is the first tactic I made entirely from scratch, so it is worth looking through the whole process to see how I arrived at the final setup.

Any issues with having just two MCs yet?

I imagine Bayern used a 4-2-3-1 which in terms of shape threatens your lack of DM and MC numbers more than most.

That was my only instinctive reservation about your tactic.

I only played about five games last night but a pattern emerged of high possession and starving the opposition of chances.

It is also clear to see the confusion caused by the lack of conventional strikers. I often saw defenders reluctantly stepping up, only to be passed around and exploited. With your shape there are plenty of passing triangles available. I might see what Short passing achieves for me later.

The Libero directly assisted a couple of goals with passes in the final third which is great to see.

I agree that the correct application of specific man marking is very effective.

Interesting to hear you successfully marked wingers with your wingbacks, that's handy to know with my lack of wide players.

My only general changes to date are setting the BPDs to CDs (I am a bit doubtful about having all of the back three with increased CF). GK distribution is now defender collect and pointed at the Libero.

Of my retrained players, the Liberos remain red, but one of my four "strikers" being trained as AMC is already orange.

You got stats from any of the games you used it in?