Beat my friend's gegenpress

[Toronto Blizzard]

I am in a network game with a friend who uses a very aggressive attacking 4-2-3-1 gegenpress.  I don't have a lot of detail on it, but I believe it doesn't stray far from the gegenpress pre-set in the tactics creator.  I know he has changed the forward to an advanced forward.

I have had some (mixed) success with a pretty standard 'fluid counter-attack' (below) but am wondering if the community has any suggestions to tweak that tactic (of suggestions for a superior alternative).  

I would say our teams are pretty evenly matched in terms of quality but he usually gets the better of me.

I am thinking to add more direct passing, change the DLP to a DM that doesn't take as much time on the ball (to move quickly and reduce his pressing opportunities), and maybe set the goalkeeper to distribute to playmaker to try to beat the press.

Your collective insights would be much appreciated!

 

[WelshMourinho]

You're already doing a few things I'd expect to see you using (BPD to play balls over the top, Winger on attack duty to take advantage of aggressive wing backs).

You could probably look to change the ST to an advanced forward, get him proper high up against the CB's and make it a risk for them to press that high up. Who are his CBs? Do they have the acceleration and pace to deal with it? 

You might look to play with wider attacking width too, as the wide areas are going to be exposed quite heavily. 

You could use pass into space. He'll be leaving plenty of space on the pitch, both behind the press and behind his defensive line, and providing your players are fast enough and have good enough OTB, you should be able to hurt him.

Edited October 21, 2020 by WelshMourinho

[Experienced Defender]

I never play network games, so take my suggestion with a huuuuge pinch of salt, but here is an example of how you could set up your tactic in an attempt to counter his 4231 gegenpressing:

AF

Wat                                  Wsu

BWMsu   APat

DMde

FBsu    CDde   NCBde   FBsu

SKde/su

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - higher tempo, slightly more direct passing, pass into space, be more expressive and hit early crosses

In transition - counter

Out of possession - lower LOE (and possibly get struck in)

NOTE: If your friend uses a downloaded plug'n'play/exploit tactic, then you have no chance at all, no matter what you do with your tactic. 

[zlatanera]

3 hours ago, Toronto Blizzard said:

I am thinking change the DLP to a DM that doesn't take as much time on the ball (to move quickly and reduce his pressing opportunities), and maybe set the goalkeeper to distribute to playmaker to try to beat the press.

These two things are entirely contradictory. If you remove the DLP, the GK will have no playmaker to distribute to (unless you perhaps used one instead of your LW / ST). 

I'd be interested to see your standard tactic in the first slot, as if its drastically different to the one you've shown us that could be part of the issue as the players won't be as familiar. My personal preference is always to only change a couple of instructions from my set playing style, although I tend to play with teams just outside of the future Super League i.e. Roma, Lyon, Dortmund. 

As @WelshMourinho says, knowing how your players match up to his individually helps, and would help us (well probably not me, I'm more of a 1-slot-and-tweak kinda guy) advise you too. You say he appears to pretty much use the GegenPress default set-up, but what formation? Is he playing wide attackers that cut in, or stay wide, or both like yourself, or perhaps even the 4-4-2 diamond that is one of the preset formations? 

 

[zabyl]

This is a good topic. I want to see more content like this.

4-2-3-1 with a gegenpress gives too much space to explode in certain areas of the pitch. There is no natural DM on a 4-2-3-1. 1 CM is needed to drop deep to build up play. FBs are needed to go high to support WFs and AM. With there is no natural DM, 1 CB is needed to play out of defence to connect defence and midfield. WFs are creator or scorers. AM is the heart of the attacking plays. 

Gegenpress uses much more urgent pressing. This gives too much space but it also uses offside trap to restrict space. Then at least 2 pacey deep runner Wingers are needed to explode opposition offside trap.

A classic 4-1-4-1 can be a good exploit against it. 4-2dm-3-1 can also be a good choice.

For 4-1-4-1 with a cautious mentality a suggest a tactic like this;

         

TIs: regroup, counter, distribute quickly, higher tempo, exploit both flanks.

distribute to flanks can be a good exploit against gegenpressing teams.

I suggest using CMs against opposite team's more advanced CM not more defensive one.

A PFa with strong aerial ability or pace can combine well with pacey WMs and hardworking BBM.

 

For 4-2dm-3-1 with same TIs and cautious mentality;

Again I suggest using DMs against opposite team's more advanced CM.

 

"Pass into space" can help for hitting opposition on the break. But using it has risks and rewards.

Edited October 22, 2020 by zabyl
added pics

[Toronto Blizzard]

15 hours ago, WelshMourinho said:

You're already doing a few things I'd expect to see you using (BPD to play balls over the top, Winger on attack duty to take advantage of aggressive wing backs).

You could probably look to change the ST to an advanced forward, get him proper high up against the CB's and make it a risk for them to press that high up. Who are his CBs? Do they have the acceleration and pace to deal with it? 

You might look to play with wider attacking width too, as the wide areas are going to be exposed quite heavily. 

You could use pass into space. He'll be leaving plenty of space on the pitch, both behind the press and behind his defensive line, and providing your players are fast enough and have good enough OTB, you should be able to hurt him.

These are good questions WelshMourinho.  I thought that getting wider behind wingers and fullbacks pushed up would be a good idea, too.

We're playing in the Canadian Premier League, so you won't know any of the players!  But his two likeliest CBs have pace of 15, acceleration 11 and pace 12, acceleration 11.  The forward I'm likely to play as an advanced forward has pace and OTB of 14 each, with acceleration of 16.

[Toronto Blizzard]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I never play network games, so take my suggestion with a huuuuge pinch of salt, but here is an example of how you could set up your tactic in an attempt to counter his 4231 gegenpressing:

AF

Wat                                  Wsu

BWMsu   APat

DMde

FBsu    CDde   NCBde   FBsu

SKde/su

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - higher tempo, slightly more direct passing, pass into space, be more expressive and hit early crosses

In transition - counter

Out of possession - lower LOE (and possibly get struck in)

NOTE: If your friend uses a downloaded plug'n'play/exploit tactic, then you have no chance at all, no matter what you do with your tactic. 

This is helpful, Experienced Defender - it looks like something I can work with.   I'm assuming that the "NCB" defender on the right is a no-nonsense CB?  I'm curious about that suggestion - is it because a no-nonsense defender's likelier to just get the ball forward rather than try to make shorter or more difficult passes?

[Toronto Blizzard]

12 hours ago, zlatanera said:

These two things are entirely contradictory. If you remove the DLP, the GK will have no playmaker to distribute to (unless you perhaps used one instead of your LW / ST). 

I'd be interested to see your standard tactic in the first slot, as if its drastically different to the one you've shown us that could be part of the issue as the players won't be as familiar. My personal preference is always to only change a couple of instructions from my set playing style, although I tend to play with teams just outside of the future Super League i.e. Roma, Lyon, Dortmund. 

As @WelshMourinho says, knowing how your players match up to his individually helps, and would help us (well probably not me, I'm more of a 1-slot-and-tweak kinda guy) advise you too. You say he appears to pretty much use the GegenPress default set-up, but what formation? Is he playing wide attackers that cut in, or stay wide, or both like yourself, or perhaps even the 4-4-2 diamond that is one of the preset formations? 

 

He's more like you - one tactic and set-up (4-2-3-1 gegenpress) which he uses pretty much exclusively.  I believe he mentioned that he uses wingers on both sides, but that could have changed.  I know he'll throw caution to the wind and sometimes switch one of the CMs into a second forward, but that's only when he's seriously chasing a goal.

As for changing the DLP into a DM and distributing to playmaker, I was thinking that there could be a playmaker in central midfield and that the gk could basically play over the press into central midfield.  But I don't know if that's actually how it would work in game.

I play with a 4-2-3-1 myself, usually (though I have used the 4-1-4-1 posted above against him).  This season I've been gegenpressing myself, but I have also played more of a 'control possession' style in previous seasons.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Toronto Blizzard

[Toronto Blizzard]

2 hours ago, zabyl said:

This is a good topic. I want to see more content like this.

4-2-3-1 with a gegenpress gives too much space to explode in certain areas of the pitch. There is no natural DM on a 4-2-3-1. 1 CM is needed to drop deep to build up play. FBs are needed to go high to support WFs and AM. With there is no natural DM, 1 CB is needed to play out of defence to connect defence and midfield. WFs are creator or scorers. AM is the heart of the attacking plays. 

Gegenpress uses much more urgent pressing. This gives too much space but it also uses offside trap to restrict space. Then at least 2 pacey deep runner Wingers are needed to explode opposition offside trap.

A classic 4-1-4-1 can be a good exploit against it. 4-2dm-3-1 can also be a good choice.

For 4-1-4-1 with a cautious mentality a suggest a tactic like this;

         

TIs: regroup, counter, distribute quickly, higher tempo, exploit both flanks.

distribute to flanks can be a good exploit against gegenpressing teams.

I suggest using CMs against opposite team's more advanced CM not more defensive one.

A PFa with strong aerial ability or pace can combine well with pacey WMs and hardworking BBM.

 

For 4-2dm-3-1 with same TIs and cautious mentality;

Again I suggest using DMs against opposite team's more advanced CM.

 

"Pass into space" can help for hitting opposition on the break. But using it has risks and rewards.

Thanks for your thoughts, Zabyl!  My wingers aren't as comfortable playing in as deep a position, but I think the left winger for sure has the pace (16) and acceleration (17) to get in behind.  The right winger isn't quite as flashy: pace 13, acceleration 13.

When you say "I suggest using CMs against opposite team's more advanced CM not more defensive one," are you referring to specific instructions (e.g., marking or closing down)?   I had the DM in the tactic I posted above mark the AMC the last time we met and that seemed to keep him quiet (in that goals didn't come via the AMC's involvement).

[zabyl]

40 minutes ago, Toronto Blizzard said:

are you referring to specific instructions (e.g., marking or closing down)?

Exactly. With players who have good positioning and concentration which can duel opposite key CM for midfield domination.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Toronto Blizzard said:

I'm assuming that the "NCB" defender on the right is a no-nonsense CB?

Yes  

 

4 hours ago, Toronto Blizzard said:

I'm curious about that suggestion - is it because a no-nonsense defender's likelier to just get the ball forward rather than try to make shorter or more difficult passes?

Again yes  

[Toronto Blizzard]

5 hours ago, zabyl said:

Exactly. With players who have good positioning and concentration which can duel opposite key CM for midfield domination.

Great.  Are you suggesting both marking and closing down, or one of the two?  Or a different instruction?

[zabyl]

If the opposition key passer has pace and agility then using tight marking for him will not be a good choice. If he is slower than your marker, mark tighter is a good choice then. 

Tackle harder can be used against him if he has low bravery.

Closing down a key passer is a necessity i think.

 

[zlatanera]

10 hours ago, Toronto Blizzard said:

 

Obviously it sounds from the OP that you've repeatedly had struggles, but I'd be looking at minor modifications: this shape is good for counter-attacking if you can beat the press with a long ball as you have 4 advanced players, so I'd perhaps be looking at losing the Narrow Attacking Width to give your winger more licence to receive the ball near the touchline if you can hit him early (if your DLP or BPD has "Likes To Switch Ball To Opposite Flank" this will help), as I'd imagine its likely he will also use the WB role. Depending on how his goals against you tend to come I might lose Counter-Press, as you have done in the OP, but also perhaps Counter if you think you give the ball away too much and yourself are vulnerable to counters. Maybe lose the Overlap instructions to allow your Wing Backs to focus more on defending and your Wingers more on attacking, in particular the W-At, who you mentioned previously is a star.

If you're going down the route I've considered of hitting him quickly, I'd look at removing the DLP (perhaps to a CM-De to give your more solidity too), but perhaps even making one of your wide players a playmaker if they have the qualities, and having your AMC as just a generic AM. As I previously mentioned with the Winger, there's more likely to be space for him to receive a long pass than in the centre, where you are currently encouraging your players to look to first.

Again, I'm not advocating all these changes at once and there's plenty of other good advice on here - for example @Experienced Defender's style of just straight up recommending a tactic grated with me at first, but he's pretty good at it. Still, hopeful these ideas help!

[llama3]

I think the most notable thing I can think is if you're being beaten by your friend's press - just play over the top of the press. You could aim to sit compact and just try and play direct over the top instead?

[Toronto Blizzard]

I thought I would provide an update - though results are inconclusive.

I played my friend twice in our last session - a dead-rubber final match day of the season (we had both already qualified for the playoffs) and the one-match championship final.

I played away both matches.  I used the tactic below in the first match (ignore some of the players - Pau was NOT the DM).

I lost to his rotated squad, 1-0, off a set piece.

Not a great performance, in my personal opinion.

For the final, I went back to what I knew, the fluid counter-attack I used in previous matches.  I'm please to say I won, 5-2 after extra time!  That said, I am hesitant to draw any conclusions from that match due to the fact that:

1. His golden boot winning striker went off injured after twelve minutes

2. His top winger went off injured after thirty-two minutes

3. He had two CBs sent off for second yellows within ten minutes of each other in the second half

I used the fluid counter attack all the way to the beginning of extra time when I switched to a more attacking 4-1-4-1, then hit three goals in extra time.  I was playing scared before that, even with the two man advantage (I just couldn't lose another final to him).

Anyway, I won and was pleased.  We hit continue and... FM crashed.  

But, being a stand-up guy, my friend insisted that we re-load and holiday the result until I'd won again.  Only took two tries.

Anyway, I'd be curious to hear thoughts.  I can probably still send some analysis information from the match that's saved if anyone thinks particular pieces of data would help.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Toronto Blizzard