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WHUBen

I need to learn, I keep failing.

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hello guys, hope you are well. I am struggling massively on this game right now and I just cant get my head round it, I need to learn. So I am hoping people can help me please :)

So firstly, I went Burnley after @Zemahh thread. I understand the expectations regarding Burnley as a football club, so I am not trying to achieve champions league first season. 

image.thumb.png.70f47032ab6c722296b4ba36cc2096f7.png

 

 

 

This is the formation I have been using, I am quickly going to give my thought process and why I selected these roles/team instructions.

Central Defenders - I could of selected NCD like @Zemahh but I did not want to give possession up that easily. So I just selected a good bog standard CD.

Full Backs - I wanted to keep my full backs on balanced, thinking about defending first rather than attacking. Especially as I have a attacking player in McNeil on the left hand side. 

CM D - With an attacking player to the left of him and Westwoods traits (comes deep to get ball, tries killer balls often) very good tackling, positioning, anticipation I felt he could link well with a forward thinking player to the side of him.

CM S - After thinking about where my goals are going to come from (crosses from left hand side) I needed another alternative to score goals and I felt that I could get someone from the midfield strata to pop up with some goals. I decided to go with brownhill because he has a trait (gets into opposition area) I also did use the instruction, gets further forward.

WM S - This is a player who has traits like cuts inside with ball etc, because of having an support CM who likes to get into the box. I felt maybe having another wide player being attack minded could be overkill for that side of the pitch, I was not really sure with this role. So I tried to go with what I felt maybe was safe?

AM S - After originally trying to use a F9 in a 442 to come deep to get the ball, I changed the player to a AM S. Starting positioning is lower, I have been using hendrick for this role because of his traits (arrives late into area and comes deep to get ball) I do have in my mind that I now have 2 players wanting to come deep to get the ball (CM D & AM S)

DLF A - Now this is probably the role I am struggling with the most, I prefer to play one striker formations despite originally trying a 442 here. We had Woods who was a good target man, but not the greatest with the ball at his feet & we had barnes who likes to pressure defenders, likes to get stuck in with the occasional red card, so I bought Mitrovic. He has traits such as (likes to play back to goal) so I thought, Mitrovic could receive the ball, he is very good technically also btw, pass the ball off and then surge into the box for a cross from McNeil or a through ball from AM S or CM s who are joining the play/transition.

Team Instructions

I am going to explain my reasoning behind this. 

In possession - I flirted with early crosses but with Mitrovic dropping deep and not the best anticipation for that early cross, I decided against that. I did not select shorter passing length or more direct because I wanted to be a mixed really, go long when the time is right or there is an opening/shorten the passing when possible, I did not want to restrict my team. 

In Transition - Long Kicks was on to try and utilise Mitrovic heading and physical strengths, knock the ball down etc. Counter for quicker transitions when we win the ball, there were occasions I had counter not selected, it was very dependant on the team I was facing.

Out of Possession - LOE, The reason I went for this was because the weakness of my team is between the defenders and the midfielders. Where an opposition AMC can pick that ball up, turn and run at my defence. I looked at my defenders, we are not the quickest bunch in the world defensively, so I decided to bring the LOE down so the Midfield strata is closer to the Defenders strata.

 

Questions

What tools within the game like the analysis, do you use to try and see what the roles are doing on the pitch? I struggle to know when to change the role because the role is not doing what it should etc etc

I tried to keep it as simple as I can, I see loads of tactics with 100s of TIs, Is there any clear tactical overkill that I am just missing? 

Is my team just too predictable? I have McNeil putting in crosses, I have Mitrovic linking up play as well as trying to be in the box. Should I leave the AMC to do the linking and Mitrovic to concentrate on scoring goals? I tried to get my CM S involved to stop being so one dimensional but maybe with no defensive cover behind him like a CDM, could be too much for the CM D?

Any advice or constructive criticism is welcomed! I appreciate it if you have took the time to read and give me a reply :)

thank you!

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4 hours ago, WHUBen said:

but I did not want to give possession up that easily

Why did you select the "Take long kicks" for keeper distribution then? 

 

4 hours ago, WHUBen said:

Especially as I have a attacking player in McNeil on the left hand side

But you also have a holding CM on that side, so you can afford a bit more attack-minded left back (e.g. WB on support duty to better support McNeil in attack). 

 

4 hours ago, WHUBen said:

I flirted with early crosses but with Mitrovic dropping deep and not the best anticipation for that early cross, I decided against that

Why do you play Mitrovic as a DLF in the first place. Why not PF on attack duty (assuming you want to play simple counter-attacking football and considering Mitrovic's attributes)? 

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31 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why did you select the "Take long kicks" for keeper distribution then? 

 

But you also have a holding CM on that side, so you can afford a bit more attack-minded left back (e.g. WB on support duty to better support McNeil in attack). 

 

Why do you play Mitrovic as a DLF in the first place. Why not PF on attack duty (assuming you want to play simple counter-attacking football and considering Mitrovic's attributes)? 

The idea behind the long kicks was pretty much a possible quick transition from goal kicks. Launch it to mitrovic then we could win the 2nd ball. I felt more comfortable doing that then going short, however the passing length was left at balanced was because in certain situations where we could keep the ball a bit better or there was an opportunity for a long pass over the top, we would not restrict ourselves from doing one or the other if that makes sense?

With the LB options, I had a fullback who ways gets forward whenever possible & a more conservative one which was pieters. Burnley being a team near the bottom, I felt that whole side could be exposed despite the CM (D) if I was to play an WM A and a more aggressive role. Maybe I should trust my CM D more?

Regarding Mitrovic and selecting him as a DLF. His pace is not his strongest asset and again I wanted to utilise his passing and vision/hold up play traits to get involved with play, as well as get into the box. Am I right now in saying, that I should of selected DLF (A) If I was trying to control the game a bit more possession wise and that he should of been more of a runner? like an AF/PF?

Thanks for the feedback btw :)

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7 hours ago, WHUBen said:

hello guys, hope you are well. I am struggling massively on this game right now and I just cant get my head round it, I need to learn. So I am hoping people can help me please :)

So firstly, I went Burnley after @Zemahh thread. I understand the expectations regarding Burnley as a football club, so I am not trying to achieve champions league first season. 

image.thumb.png.70f47032ab6c722296b4ba36cc2096f7.png

 

 

 

This is the formation I have been using, I am quickly going to give my thought process and why I selected these roles/team instructions.

Central Defenders - I could of selected NCD like @Zemahh but I did not want to give possession up that easily. So I just selected a good bog standard CD.

Full Backs - I wanted to keep my full backs on balanced, thinking about defending first rather than attacking. Especially as I have a attacking player in McNeil on the left hand side. 

CM D - With an attacking player to the left of him and Westwoods traits (comes deep to get ball, tries killer balls often) very good tackling, positioning, anticipation I felt he could link well with a forward thinking player to the side of him.

CM S - After thinking about where my goals are going to come from (crosses from left hand side) I needed another alternative to score goals and I felt that I could get someone from the midfield strata to pop up with some goals. I decided to go with brownhill because he has a trait (gets into opposition area) I also did use the instruction, gets further forward.

WM S - This is a player who has traits like cuts inside with ball etc, because of having an support CM who likes to get into the box. I felt maybe having another wide player being attack minded could be overkill for that side of the pitch, I was not really sure with this role. So I tried to go with what I felt maybe was safe?

AM S - After originally trying to use a F9 in a 442 to come deep to get the ball, I changed the player to a AM S. Starting positioning is lower, I have been using hendrick for this role because of his traits (arrives late into area and comes deep to get ball) I do have in my mind that I now have 2 players wanting to come deep to get the ball (CM D & AM S)

DLF A - Now this is probably the role I am struggling with the most, I prefer to play one striker formations despite originally trying a 442 here. We had Woods who was a good target man, but not the greatest with the ball at his feet & we had barnes who likes to pressure defenders, likes to get stuck in with the occasional red card, so I bought Mitrovic. He has traits such as (likes to play back to goal) so I thought, Mitrovic could receive the ball, he is very good technically also btw, pass the ball off and then surge into the box for a cross from McNeil or a through ball from AM S or CM s who are joining the play/transition.

Team Instructions

I am going to explain my reasoning behind this. 

In possession - I flirted with early crosses but with Mitrovic dropping deep and not the best anticipation for that early cross, I decided against that. I did not select shorter passing length or more direct because I wanted to be a mixed really, go long when the time is right or there is an opening/shorten the passing when possible, I did not want to restrict my team. 

In Transition - Long Kicks was on to try and utilise Mitrovic heading and physical strengths, knock the ball down etc. Counter for quicker transitions when we win the ball, there were occasions I had counter not selected, it was very dependant on the team I was facing.

Out of Possession - LOE, The reason I went for this was because the weakness of my team is between the defenders and the midfielders. Where an opposition AMC can pick that ball up, turn and run at my defence. I looked at my defenders, we are not the quickest bunch in the world defensively, so I decided to bring the LOE down so the Midfield strata is closer to the Defenders strata.

 

Questions

What tools within the game like the analysis, do you use to try and see what the roles are doing on the pitch? I struggle to know when to change the role because the role is not doing what it should etc etc

I tried to keep it as simple as I can, I see loads of tactics with 100s of TIs, Is there any clear tactical overkill that I am just missing? 

Is my team just too predictable? I have McNeil putting in crosses, I have Mitrovic linking up play as well as trying to be in the box. Should I leave the AMC to do the linking and Mitrovic to concentrate on scoring goals? I tried to get my CM S involved to stop being so one dimensional but maybe with no defensive cover behind him like a CDM, could be too much for the CM D?

Any advice or constructive criticism is welcomed! I appreciate it if you have took the time to read and give me a reply :)

thank you!

I think the best thing is very simply:

 

Keep the tactic as you see it in your mind. Watch the matches. See what happens when patterns start to emerge.

 

Are you seeing the type of movement from certain players you want them to make? how are the partnerships working in the team? are you conceding a specific type of goal and does that need to be addressed?

 

Then make some subtle tweaks based on this. Youve chosen lots of generic roles which gives plenty of scope for customisation. Adding just an instruction here or there can make all the difference.

 

I say this because what should happen theoretically doesnt always happen on the game. Sometimes you DO have instructions in there that make maybe little sense on the face of it, but do produce a positive effect on the team.

 

Stick with it and youll be successful. just give it time

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, WHUBen said:

The idea behind the long kicks was pretty much a possible quick transition from goal kicks. Launch it to mitrovic then we could win the 2nd ball. I felt more comfortable doing that then going short, however the passing length was left at balanced was because in certain situations where we could keep the ball a bit better or there was an opportunity for a long pass over the top, we would not restrict ourselves from doing one or the other if that makes sense?

Well, long kicks are speculative and more often than not lead to a loss of possession - in relation to your statement about not wanting to give it up easily. Even if Mitrovic wins the ball (most likely by a header), there is little chance that it will remain in your team's possession, given the numerical superiority of the opposition defense. If you played in a 442 with Mitrovic as a target man, there would be a better probability that the other striker could do something following Mitrovic's header, although only on occasion. On top of that, you play the AMC on support duty, which makes it even less likely that you can retain possession by winning the second ball. 

Now, if you had a fast striker, a quick distribution over the opposition defense would make more sense, but the problem again is that in most situations it would also lead to a cheap loss of possession. That can be a good in-match strategy when you already have a good result and the opposition are desperately chasing a goal, so you want to take advantage of that. But using it as part of your regular tactic is not a good idea IMHO. 

3 hours ago, WHUBen said:

With the LB options, I had a fullback who ways gets forward whenever possible & a more conservative one which was pieters. Burnley being a team near the bottom, I felt that whole side could be exposed despite the CM (D) if I was to play an WM A and a more aggressive role. Maybe I should trust my CM D more?

If you fear that a player is not defensively reliable enough, then either do not play him as a holding CM or do not play the left WM on attack duty. In fact, if you want a counter-attacking style of football in a 4411, it would make more sense to play the AMC on attack duty than any of wide midfielders. 

 

3 hours ago, WHUBen said:

Regarding Mitrovic and selecting him as a DLF. His pace is not his strongest asset and again I wanted to utilise his passing and vision/hold up play traits to get involved with play, as well as get into the box. Am I right now in saying, that I should of selected DLF (A) If I was trying to control the game a bit more possession wise and that he should of been more of a runner? like an AF/PF?

Sorry, I did not quite understand the last (bolded) part of your question. 

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12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, long kicks are speculative and more often than not lead to a loss of possession - in relation to your statement about not wanting to give it up easily. Even if Mitrovic wins the ball (most likely by a header), there is little chance that it will remain in your team's possession, given the numerical superiority of the opposition defense. If you played in a 442 with Mitrovic as a target man, there would be a better probability that the other striker could do something following Mitrovic's header, although only on occasion. On top of that, you play the AMC on support duty, which makes it even less likely that you can retain possession by winning the second ball. 

Now, if you had a fast striker, a quick distribution over the opposition defense would make more sense, but the problem again is that in most situations it would also lead to a cheap loss of possession. That can be a good in-match strategy when you already have a good result and the opposition are desperately chasing a goal, so you want to take advantage of that. But using it as part of your regular tactic is not a good idea IMHO. 

If you fear that a player is not defensively reliable enough, then either do not play him as a holding CM or do not play the left WM on attack duty. In fact, if you want a counter-attacking style of football in a 4411, it would make more sense to play the AMC on attack duty than any of wide midfielders. 

 

Sorry, I did not quite understand the last (bolded) part of your question. 

Okay cool, what tools do you within in the analysis tab to help you understand what roles are doing what combining with other roles etc?

My bad, I basically said is the DLF (A) more suitable for possession orientated systems? But this particular formation he needed to be a runner role (AF/PF) like you suggested.

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1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

I think the best thing is very simply:

 

Keep the tactic as you see it in your mind. Watch the matches. See what happens when patterns start to emerge.

 

Are you seeing the type of movement from certain players you want them to make? how are the partnerships working in the team? are you conceding a specific type of goal and does that need to be addressed?

 

Then make some subtle tweaks based on this. Youve chosen lots of generic roles which gives plenty of scope for customisation. Adding just an instruction here or there can make all the difference.

 

I say this because what should happen theoretically doesnt always happen on the game. Sometimes you DO have instructions in there that make maybe little sense on the face of it, but do produce a positive effect on the team.

 

Stick with it and youll be successful. just give it time

 

 

 

Thank you for the feedback mate, what tabs in the analysis tool do you use? in regards to how certain roles perform etc etc 

Or do you watch the game in full to see how the roles play out?

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, WHUBen said:

Thank you for the feedback mate, what tabs in the analysis tool do you use? in regards to how certain roles perform etc etc 

Or do you watch the game in full to see how the roles play out?

Stats and highlights give of course a lot of info, but esp if you're struggling you should watch some of the play on full match. As an example, you might get a highlight where your players did something great, so you think "great this is working", but if you watch it on full match maybe you'd see your players tried the exact same thing 4 times before the highlight, but were stopped in their tracks (i.e. your guys are actually creating low percentage and/or risky plays).

So on full match, like FMunderarchiever basically said, you'll start to see all the patterns emerge, and then as he said you can adjust more precisely and get better results.

This applies to team as well as individual roles. If you have 1 guy who's consistently struggling, also watching some of his play on full match will give you a much better clue.

Edited by OJ

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Posted (edited)

I'm a newb, so take my suggestion for what it's worth, but I've found the Player Analysis screen available from the main Analysis screen useful. In the "Analysis Tab" section on the linked page, I am referring to the screen you get when you click "Player Analysis>":

https://www.footballmanager.com/the-byline/spotting-problem-wednesday-wisdom

I find the player position, heat map, and various passing views helpful to see if my guys are generally about where I expect them to be and passing channels are opening up where I expect them. You can use the minutes slider to focus in on particular passages of play where you may have taken a bit of a kicking or had a cluster of scoring chances to see beyond the 45-90 second highlights. YMMV, but give it a look if you haven't yet.

Edited by CaptCanuck

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1 hour ago, WHUBen said:

Okay cool, what tools do you within in the analysis tab to help you understand what roles are doing what combining with other roles etc?

I don't use the analysis tab for that. I select roles based on the knowledge I already have on how they interact with one another and relative to the style of play I want to implement. And I also pay equal attention to both defensive solidity and attacking penetration. Then I just need to make sure that each role is given to a suitable player. 

 

1 hour ago, WHUBen said:

My bad, I basically said is the DLF (A) more suitable for possession orientated systems? But this particular formation he needed to be a runner role (AF/PF) like you suggested

Never look at roles and duties in isolation from the rest of your setup and also take into account the player playing in a certain position. 

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9 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

Central Defenders - I could of selected NCD like @Zemahh but I did not want to give possession up that easily. So I just selected a good bog standard CD.

Firstly, I think u can change the CD role into the BPD. As u said that u want to transit in quickly, u need a BPD who can long kicks the ball when he tackled it from opponent to urge counter-attack. 

 

16 hours ago, WHUBen said:

Full Backs - I wanted to keep my full backs on balanced, thinking about defending first rather than attacking. Especially as I have a attacking player in McNeil on the left hand side. 

Maybe u can try as FB to NFB, cause NFB can afford more defend and make sure the team can defend opponent's attack. In transition, NFB will play the ball to the CMS or WMS, who can pick up the ball and get into the deeper of the pitch.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, WHUBen said:

Is my team just too predictable?

Firstly, your systems looks sensible and should be a good starting point (no overly aggressive instructions, sensible roles and duties and a balanced formation). :thup:

However, it could be a bit too conservative going forward. Playing as Burnley, most teams should attack you from the get-go, meaning they will leave space behind you could exploit with more aggressive roles and instructions. In your case, nobody seems to be taking that risk, I'd imagine your team tries building-up in a fairly safe manner most of the time, giving the opposition all the time in the world to regroup—conservative individual mentalities due to Balanced team mentality and only two Attack duties, no dribbling, no penetrative passes (risky/direct), no width. Besides that, do you have enough quality to play possession football against teams pressing you aggressively, or do you lose the ball before it even gets to your striker?

Personally, I'd make the following changes:

  • In Mitrovic, you have a fantastic jumper; I'd change him to Target Man to make attacking transitions quicker, triggering counter attacks more often
  • With Target Man holding the ball up, I'd change AM-Su to AM-At; look to be a goal threat and get on the end of Mitrovic' lay-offs regularly
  • Having an aerial threat up front, I'd encourage wing play (regular crosses) with changing one of your WMs to a Winger and encourage one of the full backs to get forward more often (CM-De should offer enough cover, being a holding midfielder)
  • Resulting in a cross-heavy system, I'd also change CM-Su to BBM; look to get on the end of crosses, or be another option TM can hold the ball up for

Resulting in something like this:

zDtwxB6.png

Should you notice you're being too direct (too many needless losses of possession), CM-De could be changed to DLP-De; acting as ball-magnet, he should give your team a safer passing option. Shorter Passing instruction could also be a shout, encouraging players other than NCBs to prioritize greater ball retention. Should you wish to be (much) more aggressive going forward, FB-At could be changed to WB-At.

Edited by Zemahh

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