Struggling With Tactics

[Newtofm20]

I'm new to FM20 and its tactics, the last time i played FM there were sliders to develop tactics and styles of play. I decided to start as Man Utd as they are a decent team but not Liverpool or City who you could probably play any way and still win due to the strength of the squads. United have a decent squad but have some deficiencies so i new i would have to set the team up to cover those. Here are my thoughts on the squad before i developed the tactic and reasons why i have set up like i have, i have only sold matic and bought doucoure to try and make it a bit more realistic:

GK - No problems, 2 decent keepers and henderson to come back next season.

FB - Again no problems, shaw and wan bissaka starters with dalot and williams as backup, all seam to play well wether as fb or wb and get involved in lots of attacks.

CB- Decent enough Maguire and Lindelof start, Tuanzebe, Jones (he's not too bad other than pace) Bailly (when back fit in 6 months). Need to play low block due to Maguires lack of pace.

CM - Very Strong Fernandes, Doucoure and Pogba start, Mctominay and Mata also play very well in there. Trying for a balance between covering full backs when they get forward and providing an attacking threat. Pereira also can play in there but is more suited to playing out wide, talented youngsters in Garner and Mejbri but too soon for them yet. Need this group to play balls out to the fast wide men then join in for second phase attacks.

AML/R Starter Martial and Lingard (not great but will buy new next season). Also Pereira, Mata (at a push, no pace), Chong, James, Gomes all have good pace and would be perfect for a counter attacking style.

ST - Rashford starts, Oghalo and greenwood as backup. All reasonable and should score goals between them

 

I decided to play deep with a low block and then quickly counter to allow my pacy forwards the best chance to use the space behind the opposition defenders. There is a definate problem with how my tactic is set up though as i want my team to soak up pressure then break quickly but my wide men can't get into the game. The full backs provide most of the attcking threat then the wide men and striker just end up stood on edge of box being marked. Any help would be appreciated, 

 

[Newtofm20]

Sorry didn't realise that the last one was covered with filters, also keep getting battered off top teams.

[summatsupeer]

29 minutes ago, Newtofm20 said:

I decided to play deep with a low block and then quickly counter to allow my pacy forwards the best chance to use the space behind the opposition defenders. There is a definate problem with how my tactic is set up though as i want my team to soak up pressure then break quickly but my wide men can't get into the game. The full backs provide most of the attcking threat then the wide men and striker just end up stood on edge of box being marked. Any help would be appreciated, 

All of your runners are on the flanks, there is nothing through the middle.  Yes Pogba is on an attack duty but as a AP does not have Gets Forward Often and wouldn't want him to anyway as he and the IF-At would be attacking the same area.  With a winger on the right I don't think the DR needs to be so attacking, have him cover and give a different option.

I think you need a plan A and B.  Sitting deep against small clubs will likely just allow them to pass it around there defence and end up with 60%+ of possession.  I don't think your actually playing that deep but I also don't agree with your reasoning for wanting to play deep.  Whilst Maguire isn't quick, i'd say the defence overall is even less suited to defending deep due to lack of strength, positioning, marking, jumping etc.  The offside trap or a cover+stopper partnership can help cover for Maguires issue.

I'd back of some of the specific instructions to give the players a bit more choice:

• Play Out Of Defence - You have distribute to CBs + FBs already.  This makes the midfield drop to help to which probably won't help a direct style since forwards will lack support.
• Work Ball Into Box - Don't see the point in a fast/direct style.  Get the ball in ASAP before defence gets organized.  I'd prefer occasional use of Early Crosses over WBIB.
• Focus Play - I never use these in base tactics, they're only added when I see a vulnerability in a match.
• Regroup - If they can press and make a mistake it could lead to chances, i'd just let the players decide as your not really playing a counter attacking system, more a fast attacking system.
• Tighter Marking - I prefer OI/PI to target certain players.  In your formation I think cutting off passing lanes and being in position to win 2nd balls etc should help more.
• More Urgent - Again I prefer OI/PI to focus certain areas whilst having others supporting rather than all chasing around.
• Lower Defensive Line - I'd keep it default or maybe go higher.  Congest that midfield and make it hard to play through and try to win the ball in the middle third rather than your third.

Roles and duties need a big rethink, I don't see just one or two changes.  I think all of utds forwards are best on attack duty and this fits with the mid trap+direct style so i'd start there and work backwards thinking about player+ball movement.  For example you could have Bruno in MCR as the teams playmaker to draw teams to that side with a W-Su outside and a WB-De covering, they could then look to switch play or get a early cross into the ST+AML.  On the left that means Pogba is more a supporting player, to use space when the ball is switched but need to balance him with the DL who i'd probably start as a WB-Su to provide later width and help with overloading that flank and creating space inside for the IF-At.  This would be more my plan A vs most of the league / europa, against top clubs i'd play more cautiously with a DM but not much deeper and not take so many risks as they should give us space to attack easier anyway.

[Newtofm20]

29 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

All of your runners are on the flanks, there is nothing through the middle.  Yes Pogba is on an attack duty but as a AP does not have Gets Forward Often and wouldn't want him to anyway as he and the IF-At would be attacking the same area.  With a winger on the right I don't think the DR needs to be so attacking, have him cover and give a different option.

I think you need a plan A and B.  Sitting deep against small clubs will likely just allow them to pass it around there defence and end up with 60%+ of possession.  I don't think your actually playing that deep but I also don't agree with your reasoning for wanting to play deep.  Whilst Maguire isn't quick, i'd say the defence overall is even less suited to defending deep due to lack of strength, positioning, marking, jumping etc.  The offside trap or a cover+stopper partnership can help cover for Maguires issue.

I'd back of some of the specific instructions to give the players a bit more choice:

• Play Out Of Defence - You have distribute to CBs + FBs already.  This makes the midfield drop to help to which probably won't help a direct style since forwards will lack support.
• Work Ball Into Box - Don't see the point in a fast/direct style.  Get the ball in ASAP before defence gets organized.  I'd prefer occasional use of Early Crosses over WBIB.
• Focus Play - I never use these in base tactics, they're only added when I see a vulnerability in a match.
• Regroup - If they can press and make a mistake it could lead to chances, i'd just let the players decide as your not really playing a counter attacking system, more a fast attacking system.
• Tighter Marking - I prefer OI/PI to target certain players.  In your formation I think cutting off passing lanes and being in position to win 2nd balls etc should help more.
• More Urgent - Again I prefer OI/PI to focus certain areas whilst having others supporting rather than all chasing around.
• Lower Defensive Line - I'd keep it default or maybe go higher.  Congest that midfield and make it hard to play through and try to win the ball in the middle third rather than your third.

Roles and duties need a big rethink, I don't see just one or two changes.  I think all of utds forwards are best on attack duty and this fits with the mid trap+direct style so i'd start there and work backwards thinking about player+ball movement.  For example you could have Bruno in MCR as the teams playmaker to draw teams to that side with a W-Su outside and a WB-De covering, they could then look to switch play or get a early cross into the ST+AML.  On the left that means Pogba is more a supporting player, to use space when the ball is switched but need to balance him with the DL who i'd probably start as a WB-Su to provide later width and help with overloading that flank and creating space inside for the IF-At.  This would be more my plan A vs most of the league / europa, against top clubs i'd play more cautiously with a DM but not much deeper and not take so many risks as they should give us space to attack easier anyway.

Do you mean something like this:

I

If so, are there any other instructions for individual players that i should consider, like should i have Bruno going wider to creat an overload on the right with wan Bissaka and Lingard, then exploit it by switching the ball to Martial, Shaw and Rashford. Should i have exploit left flank on to do this. Is the mentality of positive ok or would you go attacking.

[Newtofm20]

Also are these ok

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Newtofm20

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, Newtofm20 said:

Do you mean something like this:

I

If so, are there any other instructions for individual players that i should consider, like should i have Bruno going wider to creat an overload on the right with wan Bissaka and Lingard, then exploit it by switching the ball to Martial, Shaw and Rashford. Should i have exploit left flank on to do this. Is the mentality of positive ok or would you go attacking.

No PI's at this point, I like the get the basis (roles, duties and mentality) to point I can start refining each player.  No point adding PIs then deciding the role/duty was wrong in the first place.

Ok so looking at this, I like the roles+duties more but a few issues:

• The overload isn't on the right, its the DL overlapping to make space for the IF-At.  The right side needs to be more supportive to link and transition on that side so opponents shift to that side, if the MCR is too high and/or wide he can switch play either by a direct cross field ball or a simple lateral pass to the MCL.
• I would not use Exploit flank unless I see a defensive issue on that flank, otherwise it makes the tactic more specific, reducing player choices and against some sides they might be very good defensively in that area.
• I'd start with Positive but can switch to attacking if dominating and need to speed things up, might need to adjust your out of possession instructions so don't press too high.
• I don't like using Offside Trap with a Stopper+Cover pair.  Its either offside trap + Defend pair or NO offside trap + Stopper + Cover.  Just so hard for the cover player to try to play offside trap but also sweep up, kind of asking for it to fail and him to have to sweep up.
• You've added Counter Press? I don't think that will help.
• Early crosses is an option thing i'd add during a game for when controlling the game but not getting enough chances.  I'd use Pass Into Space the same way.

[Newtofm20]

Thanks for that, this is what i'm going with, no player instructions as yet and i'll play 5 games then let you know how i get on. I'll use Assistant to set opposition instructions for each game.

[summatsupeer]

10 minutes ago, Newtofm20 said:

Thanks for that, this is what i'm going with, no player instructions as yet and i'll play 5 games then let you know how i get on. I'll use Assistant to set opposition instructions for each game.

I'd rather you use no OI than assistant  Can really change how a tactic plays and if you don't know what he's doing game to game it might make things inconsistent to judge.

[Hilly1979]

34 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd rather you use no OI than assistant  Can really change how a tactic plays and if you don't know what he's doing game to game it might make things inconsistent to judge.

100% this, your assistant does not know how you want to play so will make decisions based on his tactical beliefs which could be the polar opposite to yours.

[Experienced Defender]

 

19 hours ago, Newtofm20 said:

I'm new to FM20 and its tactics, the last time i played FM there were sliders to develop tactics and styles of play

If you are new to (this version of) FM, then the first "rule" when it comes to tactical creation is - keep it as simple as possible. In fact, keeping it simple is always good, even for more experienced tacticians. 

 

19 hours ago, Newtofm20 said:

decided to play deep with a low block and then quickly counter to allow my pacy forwards the best chance to use the space behind the opposition defenders

This sounds nice, but the problem is the reputation of your team. Although not as strong as before, Man Utd is still considered a top team in England, which means that you are likely to face defensive opposition most of the time. A consequence of which is - they are hardly going to give you space for counter-attacks. Because they will look to defend deep and tight. So you'll probably need to reconsider your intended style of play.

At the same time, it does not mean that you should opt for an entirely different approach (like some extremely aggressive gung-ho football). Absolutely not. Finding the right balance between being solid in defense and having enough attacking penetration is key to any successful tactic. 

P.S: I don't know which of the 3 tactics you have posted in this thread is in use at the moment, but each has some serious flaws that can lead to issues.

[Newtofm20]

Right i've played 5 games with those tactics using no oi or pi, here are results and player form:

First 3 games went well, leicester game Vardy scored from a long ball over the top so i dropped the line back to standard and went more attacking in last 20 mins and rashford scored a cracker with a dribble half length of pitch. Utrecht game wasn't great, they scored from a long free kick which ended up over everyone and there full back scored on far post. We scored a penalty, then doucoure scored a cracker in 88 min, then they score in 96 min with a straight through ball which went 25 yards in between lb and cb. Play seems to be better in general but AML is still a massive problem, can't get anyone to perform well there. By the waay using pretty much two teams, one for carabao cup and europa league stage and one for the league and fa cup.

[MadOnion]

Looking at the rating your forwards players are getting, it suggests they're either:

• Being isolated and not getting much service
• or being too high up the pitch and not contributing to build-up

Pogba will get forward (PPM), Martial is already high up the pitch and I think Shaw will push forward as well (I don't remember his PPMs).

On a positive mentality, an inside forward on support or attack have the same mentality in game. I think the game sees an IF as a goal scorer from the flanks. Alternatively you can try the inverted winger which has different mentalities. I've had success playing with inverted wingers on higher mentalities.

Just as an example, if you change Martial's duty to IF-S and use overlap left, that will increase Shaw's mentality and decrease Martial's mentality. He will become less attacking but will hopefully be more involved in the build-up with Pogba and Shaw. That will create a nice overload on that flank which then means one of those guys could potentially find Rashford/Bruno Fernandes attacking the vacating space.

That is where I'd start, Martial's positioning, since he's rating is so low. I'd use the stats and in-game analysis data so see how many passes/shows/key-passes he's doing.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by MadOnion

[summatsupeer]

7 hours ago, Newtofm20 said:

Right i've played 5 games with those tactics using no oi or pi, here are results and player form:

...

First 3 games went well, leicester game Vardy scored from a long ball over the top so i dropped the line back to standard and went more attacking in last 20 mins and rashford scored a cracker with a dribble half length of pitch. Utrecht game wasn't great, they scored from a long free kick which ended up over everyone and there full back scored on far post. We scored a penalty, then doucoure scored a cracker in 88 min, then they score in 96 min with a straight through ball which went 25 yards in between lb and cb. Play seems to be better in general but AML is still a massive problem, can't get anyone to perform well there. By the waay using pretty much two teams, one for carabao cup and europa league stage and one for the league and fa cup.

Quick points:

1. I prefer Rashford at AML with Martial upfront
2. PF-At is basically a AF-At when your in possession.  I think a CF-At or DLF-At will work better so he's not as focused as playing on the defenses shoulder.
3. I still don't like the MEZ-At in that system.
4. Two BPD might be over the top, especially with your direct passing.  I think the DCL is the best position in that system so can play balls down the line for the DL.  The DCR i'd prefer to just feed Bruno.
5. Not sure Direct Passing is even needed and might just give the ball back cheaply too much.  I'd prefer to selectively give it to certain players (Bruno) who needs the extra range to feed the AML.
6. I'd give De Gea some distribution instructions, your forwards aren't good at winning headers from long balls and his attributes aren't great to pick out long through balls.  I like Short Kicks OR Dist FB/CB.  Whilst want fast attack, need to be efficient at it.

[Newtofm20]

UPDATE

Things didn't do well with the initial changes that i made so i had a re-think after the Rennes game, i looked at some of my team instructions and duties and came up with something that seems to work well, not quite the possession football that i was now hoping for, as i did a bit of squad analysis after doing some research on passion4fm website, and my team seems to be well suited to playing a high line and possession based football but the tactic seems to be doing the trick anyway with only 30-40% possession.

 

 

[Noel Gallagher]

If you want more possession I’d recommend having one of your central midfielders as a playmaker of some kind. The roles you have selected, while not bad, don’t lend themselves to a possession orientated style of play. 

McTominay’s position might be a good shout to have as a DLP with a defend duty as he will receive the ball from the ball playing defender and then dictate the play from the midfield laying on passes to your advancing midfielders and wingers.

Although I’m not sure of McTominay’s attributes to fulfil this role so Pogba might be a good option for the actual role.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Noel Gallagher

[Zemahh]

11 hours ago, Noel Gallagher said:

McTominay’s position might be a good shout to have as a DLP with a defend duty as he will receive the ball from the ball playing defender[...]

Just to touch on this, BPD usually isn't the best choice if you want to build from the back. He will often look to launch defense-splitting passes from deep and simply ignore the DLP. Simple CDs are usually a better option for recycling the ball.

A few examples, High is a DLP and Reynolds a BPD:

• Example 1

BPD receives the ball and has two simple passing options

Instead, he tries to find a winger with a risky pass

• Example 2

Although under pressure, DLP is available for a pass

BPD ignores him and launches a long ball into space

• Example 3

DLP drops deep to receive the ball

And gets ignored in favour of a risky pass