Advice for a 4-3-3 using a wide targetman

[zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz]

I'm playing with Everton and I am experimenting with the wide targetman, it's a role I've wanted to try since it was added to the game but I've never really had a team or a player I felt suited it. At Everton I have Dominic Calvert-Lewin who struck me as a player well suited for the role, so I decided to finally give it a try.

After 20 matches played we currently sit 9th in the table with 7 wins, 6 draws and 7 defeats. Calvert-Lewin is playing reasonably well but the rest of the team is struggling, especially the midfield where I am yet to find the right combinations of roles and players.

How we lined up in our latest match, a 2-2 draw at home against Liverpool:

Would be happy to hear suggestions on how to improve this formation, both team instructions and player roles. The midfield in particular has been giving me headaches.

One change I am considering already is to switch Calvert-Lewin over to the right flank to allow Lucas Digne to hit "Flo passes" over to him as my fullback options on the right side are less effective crossers. Do you have any other suggestions?

My wide targetman, Dominic Calvert-Lewin:

He has been nearly ever-present for me so far and in his 20 league matches he has scored 9 goals and contributed 4 assists.

Edited January 7, 2020 by zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz

[crusadertsar]

To be a wide targetman you need to be a good targetman first. With jumping of 15 he is not going to be dominating many air duels. Get someone who is very strong and at least 18 in jumping. Think Lukaku or Edin Dzeko

[zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz]

9 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

To be a wide targetman you need to be a good targetman first. With jumping of 15 he is not going to be dominating many air duels. Get someone who is very strong and at least 18 in jumping. Think Lukaku or Edin Dzeko

He's not going up against central defenders, Calvert-Lewin is both big and strong enough to bully most fullbacks in the Premier League. He's just about the only thing in my tactic that actually works.

[nick1408]

Here are my thoughts (none are tested but I have played with Everton):

1. Swap roles of Digne and Sidibe. Well, not exactly. Sidibe cannot be a CWB but is more than capable WB-su or WB-at. I’d start him as a WB-su with the PI “Cross to targetman”. Digne is a more than capable all round full back so I’d have him as a FB-su. 

2. I would have Richy as a IF rather than IW. He needs to attack the box more to support Kean. 

3. Speaking of Kean; your roles don’t give enough penetration to goal. CF-su can be fine as long as the players around him are tasked correctly. It probably start him as a DLF-at and experiment from there. 

4. Speaking of penetration and support; the midfield trio looks all wrong. I like a DM on support in the situation you’re in. Morgan is more than capable of playing that role. I’d swap Delph to the other side (along with his role) and drop Siggy for either Davies or Gomes. Then I would swap the role to either BBM or even Mez-at. If WTM has the hardlocked PI of cut inside I might trail the Mez on support. One or both my CMs would have either more direct or more risky passes. The idea being the guy closest to DCL will be the primary receiver who can then give off the killer pass to the striker or switch play to Richy. A BWM can also be pretty attacking but not Delph as a BWM unfortunately. 

5. I’d be starting my LOE at much lower and shifting it up if needed. At much higher (and also countering in transition) DCL is around opposition players too early. Let him be one-on-one rather than having a CB also closing him down in transition. 

6. Are Keane and Mina quick enough to operate in a higher line of engagement?  If not, drop it back to standard. It’ll also give a bit more space to DCL to operate. 

7. Back off he pressing for the same reasons as 5. And 6.

8. Tighter marking may help cut off passing options. It’s similar to pressing harder but instead of pressing the ball player you let him have the ball and cut off his options. Check my post history for examples. 

[sovy666]

4 ore fa, crusadertsar ha scritto:

Think Lukaku or Edin Dzeko

Or Mandzukic

[sovy666]

It is for FM18 but westy8chimp delivers great contents to the forum so it's worth a read.

Edited January 7, 2020 by sovy666

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz said:

 

9 hours ago, zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz said:

How we lined up in our latest match, a 2-2 draw at home against Liverpool

 

9 hours ago, zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz said:

Would be happy to hear suggestions on how to improve this formation, both team instructions and player roles

Even though your tactic needs a lot of improvement IMHO, a draw against LFC is a fantastic result. I am wondering how they failed to take advantage of your left flank, given how porous it is defense-wise. Or they maybe did take advantage (since they scored 2 goals), but obviously failed to protect their own goal better.

Anyway, there definitely is significant room for improvement in your tactic. A lot would depend on whether you insist the WTM must play on attack duty or you just want to use the role, regardless of duty?

[zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz]

I'm now in mid-March sitting in 11th place. This is how we are lining up at the moment:

Went ahead and switched over Calvert-Lewin to the other flank which has been fairly successful so far. Richarlison who had been invisible playing on the right hit his best patch of form right after he was moved to the left but is now out injured for 5 weeks.

Been experimenting with various roles on the right side of the midfield but haven't found anything that really clicked. Gylfi on the other hand is doing quite well and having both him and Mina in the team makes us a constant threat on set-pieces.

[zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz]

13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

 

Even though your tactic needs a lot of improvement IMHO, a draw against LFC is a fantastic result. I am wondering how they failed to take advantage of your left flank, given how porous it is defense-wise. Or they maybe did take advantage (since they scored 2 goals), but obviously failed to protect their own goal better.

Anyway, there definitely is significant room for improvement in your tactic. A lot would depend on whether you insist the WTM must play on attack duty or you just want to use the role, regardless of duty?

I wouldn't make too many assumptions based on the game against Liverpool, it was the match right after Boxing Day and they were tired and nervous. It was a fairly even match where they took an early lead through two brilliant individual goals by Mané before we got back into the match through a penalty and a corner in the second half when they were exhausted.

The WTM is my primary goalscorer this season, but I am planning to switch him over to support duty in the long run. I am thinking that a WTM on support might link-up well with a segundo volante playing on attack duty, but I'd have to buy someone capable of playing segundo volante before trying that.

I'd be curious to hear your suggestions!

[nick1408]

I started an Everton game just to try this. First game vs Manchester United was a 2-1 loss. I went in like this (Schniderlin and Pickford injured):

 

 

RB was told to cross aim targetman, AP more direct passes.

I'm not sure on Gomes as an AP-su yet but I need players close to DCL that he can lay passes to easily as he isn't a good technical player. Davies scored the goal and ended up as man of the match in a losing side. DCL's stats weren't crash hot but to me this offered a pretty solid template to work with. I can't see DCL scoring a high average rating simply because he will be playing short passes to either the LB or the AP most often. You can see that from his passes completed there was nothing really magical:

 

Passing combination with the GK:

Passing combination with the LB:

Passing combination with the LCB:

Passing combination with the AP. I would have expected more here:

 

And with the striker:

His headers won all seemed in pretty good areas and where I would expect them:

 

I'm not going to continue with this save unless this thread really kicks off but I think the WTM-su would be the best option for DCL and it could be a valid focus point.

 

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz said:

I am thinking that a WTM on support might link-up well with a segundo volante playing on attack duty

But you cannot employ a volante in the 4141dm wide formation. You need a system with 2 DMs. 

 

11 hours ago, zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz said:

I'd be curious to hear your suggestions!

Well, given that WTM is primarily supposed to keep hold of the ball out wide before bringing others into play, I'll give you an example for both possible setups - one with the WTM on support, the other with him on attack.

A possible setup with WTM on support:

PFat

WTMsu                         Wat

CAR     MEZsu

DMde

FBat   CDde  CDco     FBsu

SKsu

And with WTM on attack:

PFat

WTMat                          Wsu

CAR   APsu

Ade

WBsu   CDde  CDco  WBsu

SKsu

Both setups are based on your preferred 11 from your first (OP) tactic (played in identical positions). 

And I would also tweak some of your instructions if you don't mind?

[crusadertsar]

@Experienced Defender I would be curious as to why you play carillilero next to WTM(s)? I would have thought having runners around the widetargetman such as mezzala and wingback (a) would better take advantage of his knockdowns and holdup of the ball.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

I would be curious as to why you play carillilero next to WTM(s)? I would have thought having runners around the widetargetman such as mezzala and wingback (a) would better take advantage of his knockdowns and holdup of the ball

Honestly, under ideal circumstances, I would also prefer a mezzala (the duty would depend on the WTM's duty). But I had to take into account his players, more specifically the preferred starting 11. Because I always pay attention to the defensive aspect of a tactic, not just attacking. For me, there always need to be proper balance (although I do admit there are fairly unbalanced tactics that work in FM, but these simply are not my cup of tea). 

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, under ideal circumstances, I would also prefer a mezzala (the duty would depend on the WTM's duty). But I had to take into account his players, more specifically the preferred starting 11. Because I always pay attention to the defensive aspect of a tactic, not just attacking. For me, there always need to be proper balance (although I do admit there are fairly unbalanced tactics that work in FM, but these simply are not my cup of tea). 

True good balance in defence is important. You are staying true to your name 

[Tilling]

On 08/01/2020 at 23:07, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, under ideal circumstances, I would also prefer a mezzala (the duty would depend on the WTM's duty). But I had to take into account his players, more specifically the preferred starting 11. Because I always pay attention to the defensive aspect of a tactic, not just attacking. For me, there always need to be proper balance (although I do admit there are fairly unbalanced tactics that work in FM, but these simply are not my cup of tea). 

Can you share what tactic you would play a WTM in an ideal circumstance? I've tried all FM20 to get direct football working and had absolutely no joy in a variety of different configurations, all except for WTM. I'm keen to see what you think is the best way to get the most out of the player, TIs and all

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, Tilling said:

Can you share what tactic you would play a WTM in an ideal circumstance? I've tried all FM20 to get direct football working and had absolutely no joy in a variety of different configurations, all except for WTM. I'm keen to see what you think is the best way to get the most out of the player, TIs and all

You mean a plug'n'play type of tactic, or a normal, well-balanced one as a good starting point?

[Tilling]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

You mean a plug'n'play type of tactic, or a normal, well-balanced one as a good starting point?

Honestly the way you describe it makes it sound like you had a detailed write-up already somewhere that I just couldn't find haha. A normal well-balanced one ideally, or even just the general principles that you're looking to build it around. Do you think it's possible to play one from a low block, using the WTM as the out-ball in order to drive quick counters?

[Experienced Defender]

11 minutes ago, Tilling said:

Honestly the way you describe it makes it sound like you had a detailed write-up already somewhere that I just couldn't find haha

No, I don't have such a write-up, just applying my general tactical approach - which btw is pretty simple - to any type of tactic. 

 

12 minutes ago, Tilling said:

A normal well-balanced one ideally, or even just the general principles that you're looking to build it around

Okay, let's for now talk about general principles, and later we can move to more concrete examples. So these are my basic principles (steps):

1. analyze your team (players) to determine what style (or styles) of play should optimally suit them;

2. once you have completed the step 1, think about potentially optimal formation(s) that would ideally support such style of play;

3. once you have figured out the formation, try to create a well-balanced setup of roles and duties taking into account the following:

- who and how creates space for those behind and around him when you attack (distribution of roles and duties in different areas of the pitch/setup)

- who and how takes advantage of that space in their respective areas

- who and how provides defensive cover for those bombing forward (attack-minded roles, not necessarily on attack duties)

4. once you have set the roles and duties up according to these principles, you can move to team instructions, but always taking into account the mentality as a huge factor (because the mentality automatically affects all other elements of a tactic). When it comes to instructions, try to keep it simple:

- do not use too many of them; instead use just a few that more closely define the style of play you are looking to implement (you can even start with no instructions at all, and then add them gradually if needed, based on what you observe watching the match

- bear in mind that the manner in which you defend (out-of-possession and defensive transition TIs) has an impact on your attacking performance, as well as the other way around - your manner of attacking will affect your defensive performance 

5. of course, through all these steps always bear in mind your players' qualities (both strengths and weaknesses) and capabilities (don't give them roles they don't have the right attributes for; don't ask them to do more than they are realistically capable of, don't pick roles and duties randomly etc.) 

35 minutes ago, Tilling said:

Do you think it's possible to play one from a low block, using the WTM as the out-ball in order to drive quick counters?

Why not? As long as you have the right player for that particular role and provided such style suits your team (including its reputation).