1 Centre Back and 2 Inverted Wing Backs

[McCollins]

Hi Guys, 

I just wanted to start a thread based on a system I'm currently trying to run with Ajax and if anyone has tried similar. I have always been a possession football, high pressing fan inspired by Cruyff then Pep, and I'm trying to run a system based off of @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s amazing thread on Cruyffs 3-4-3 diamond. 

I have copied the 3-5-1-1 from that thread almost to the letter minus a few tweaks here and there, and as a system based on dominance, we are dominating the Eredivisie in January first season with no signings, in the Dutch Cup semis and Europa League Knockout round. However I have found, obviously, that it can be weak against stronger teams playing 4-2-3-1/4-3-3, as their high, wide wingers really stretch the back 3, and you are extremely reliant on covering players through the middle. If one player doesn't track properly, it all goes wrong in one swift counter attack. We struggled through the Europa league group stage with alll 3 teams playing 4-2-3-1 and needed some luck, I also got done 4-0 by AZ Alkmaar in my only league defeat so far, again they played a wide 4-3-3. I have also had a few annoying wins where we should've had a clean sheet, but have conceded counter attacking goals. I knew the wide players were causing me issues. 

In my first game after the winter break, I ran the below system vs 3rd place Feyenoord who play 4-2-3-1, who are arguably stronger than my young Ajax team, just not as technically gifted perhaps. Having struggled to a 2-2 draw against them earlier in the season, i knew we needed something different: 

-------------------------------SK(S)-----------------------------------

IWB(D)--------------------BPD(C)------------------------IWB(D)

------------------------------HB(D)-----------------------------------

W(S)------------CM(S)---------------CM(D)-----------------W(S)

-----------------------------AM(A)------------------------------------

-------------------------------CF(S)-----------------------------------

Most roles in the system are very similar as my standard 3-5-1-1, with the wingers being on support instead of attack, the HB(D) instead of a DLP(D) playing in the DM strata rather than CM strata, one CM changed to (D) instead of (S), and obviously the inverted wing backs instead of 3 CBs, the main change.

We won the game 4-1, with my IWBs being in much better positions when Feyenoord won the ball to snuff long balls into the wide areas while still maintaining the overall traditional back 3 shape, the central striker was covered by both the BDP and the HB, and the defensive CM covered back against the CAM of Feyenoord. I did have my AM(A) set to man-mark their deepest CM so make sure he came back and helped defend, and also had my HB set to man-mark their striker to make sure he dropped in, almost as a 2nd true CB most of the time when defending. This total football fluid play was beautiful to watch, and going forward we still looked like the same time as in my main tactic. 

I'm wondering if anyone else has used anything similar defensively, as most people would see playing 1 true CB as almost suicidal? I have no doubts that the set-up at Ajax makes this system work due to the highly technically trained players and good work rate, but i really want to know if this could be seen as a long term fix to my tough games, or whether we have caught Feyenoord on a bad day. Any results anyone has had with a similar set-up are greatly appreciated! 

[SixPointer]

I’ve been building a similar style off football but with a back with 2 at the back and a half back in front. It’s makes a lovely back 3 with wing backs   And 2 inside forwards. But I really like this idea as I also tried the 3 at the back and lost far to many goals against the same systems. You may well be onto something here 

[juusal]

Coming from someone who has tried to make a back three like this work in multiple different setups, it just does not work consistently. A lot of the situations work nicely and the defence looks good but then in every match there are situations where they defend the wrong area or player. I like how they cover wide areas (three center backs without wingbacks don't cover wide areas at all which is really frustrating) as well, but especially close to their own box they tend have moments where they leave strikers wide open by positioning themselves too wide. Sometimes works wonderfully but pretty much every game there are bad moments. Playing with Ajax helps a lot as you are in control in almost every match and there is less pressure on your defence, plus your defenders are good enough to deal with some difficult situations but you might run into some shaky situations.

[SmileFaceGamer]

Thank god I found that. I’m trying something very similar, 361/343 dimond total football possession tactic. It’s based upon a fluid, low tempo passing game with an aggressive forward press (how can I not, ich liebe gegenpressing) with Lyon. So far though, two 1-1 draws with Nantes and Stade Rennes with scrappy pre season results is all I have to show for it. For reference, my preferred team, roles, PI’s and TI’s are left below. I will try the 1CB/2IWB system, but any other tips are appreciated as well

GK: Lopes - SK(S) Distribute to CB’s, Distribute Quickly (May remove)

RCB: Tete - CD(D) Mark the LCF

CB: Marcelo (not that one) - CD(C) Close Down More (the idea is that as well as sweeping, he closes down the ball to give us a spare man in defence, covered by the DLP-D, in practice, this doesn’t happen) sometimes Mark the more advanced forward

LCB: Dikharby/M’biwa (names utterly butchered) - CD(D) Mark the RCF

RM: Falk/Traore - W(A) Mark the most advanced opposition wing player (a change I made at HT in the Rennes Game that worked so well I’m gonna keep it, they don’t track back otherwise)

RCM: Many options - CM(S) Player specific

CM: Ndombele/Auoar - DLP(D) No added TI’s

LCM: Many options - CM(S) Player specific

LM: Depay/Kluivert - W(A) Mark the most advanced opposition wing player, Shoot less often for Kluivert (his finishing is 9)

CAM: Fekir/Auoar - AM(A) Move into channels, More risky passes

CF: Mariano/Fekir/Depay - CF(S) Move into channels

Any help much appreciated. Will try the IWB’s and mabye drop my DLP-D back

[Beren]

With regards to what most people are saying in this topic, I wonder if there is a way to get your CBs cover wide areas of the pitch, wether that's with a back 3 or 4 or whatever.

I noticed that any way I setup my formation/role/duties, I seem to fail at making them do that.

I am trying to recreate what S. Ramos does to cover for Marcelo in R. Madrid, or what Radu and Felipe did for Lazio this year in the Serie A, when they often went in wide areas to cover the spaces left open by Marušić and Lulic.

Thank you very much.

[SmileFaceGamer]

9 minutes ago, Beren said:

With regards to what most people are saying in this topic, I wonder if there is a way to get your CBs cover wide areas of the pitch, wether that's with a back 3 or 4 or whatever.

I noticed that any way I setup my formation/role/duties, I seem to fail at making them do that.

I am trying to recreate what S. Ramos does to cover for Marcelo in R. Madrid, or what Radu and Felipe did for Lazio this year in the Serie A, when they often went in wide areas to cover the spaces left open by Marušić and Lulic.

Thank you very much.

From experience, 3 at the back systems naturally split. If you set the width to ‘very wide’ your wide CB’s will split to the touch line. For a 4 at the back system. The same applies, you may have to use a HB in Defensive Midfield though. The issue is that you leave huge gaps for any striker with a single brain cell and half a yard of pace to exploit

[JD nawrat]

3 hours ago, SmileFaceGamer said:

Thank god I found that. I’m trying something very similar, 361/343 dimond total football possession tactic. It’s based upon a fluid, low tempo passing game with an aggressive forward press (how can I not, ich liebe gegenpressing) with Lyon. So far though, two 1-1 draws with Nantes and Stade Rennes with scrappy pre season results is all I have to show for it. For reference, my preferred team, roles, PI’s and TI’s are left below. I will try the 1CB/2IWB system, but any other tips are appreciated as well

GK: Lopes - SK(S) Distribute to CB’s, Distribute Quickly (May remove)

RCB: Tete - CD(D) Mark the LCF

CB: Marcelo (not that one) - CD(C) Close Down More (the idea is that as well as sweeping, he closes down the ball to give us a spare man in defence, covered by the DLP-D, in practice, this doesn’t happen) sometimes Mark the more advanced forward

LCB: Dikharby/M’biwa (names utterly butchered) - CD(D) Mark the RCF

RM: Falk/Traore - W(A) Mark the most advanced opposition wing player (a change I made at HT in the Rennes Game that worked so well I’m gonna keep it, they don’t track back otherwise)

RCM: Many options - CM(S) Player specific

CM: Ndombele/Auoar - DLP(D) No added TI’s

LCM: Many options - CM(S) Player specific

LM: Depay/Kluivert - W(A) Mark the most advanced opposition wing player, Shoot less often for Kluivert (his finishing is 9)

CAM: Fekir/Auoar - AM(A) Move into channels, More risky passes

CF: Mariano/Fekir/Depay - CF(S) Move into channels

Any help much appreciated. Will try the IWB’s and mabye drop my DLP-D back

Consider your goalkeeper's distribution PIs. You say you want a low tempo game but you've instructed your GK to distribute asap. 

I've also never considered the impact of Close Down More on a Cover CD (I personally use DCB/C but in a back 4 as my RB bombs forward at will). I'm not sure how this works to be honest and based on your own comments it's definitely a spot to reconsider. Perhaps try him as a Stopper or keep him purely as a Cover (Not closing down more) And have your other CBs be more aggressive to make up for this.

You've basically got a midfield diamond, with your DLP dropping and two support CMs and the AM at the tip of the diamond, so to speak. Perhaps moving the DLP to DM is the basic first step to providing better defensive cover from the midfield, too. If your central CB is covering and your two wide CBs are pushing wider to close down (as Stoppers) then the DM would also help to create a somewhat "defensive diamond" in theory, too... it may not work, it would have to be tested, but in theory it makes sense. 

I also wonder how two CMs on Support would support the attack. 

[SmileFaceGamer]

52 minutes ago, JDownie said:

Consider your goalkeeper's distribution PIs. You say you want a low tempo game but you've instructed your GK to distribute asap. 

I've also never considered the impact of Close Down More on a Cover CD (I personally use DCB/C but in a back 4 as my RB bombs forward at will). I'm not sure how this works to be honest and based on your own comments it's definitely a spot to reconsider. Perhaps try him as a Stopper or keep him purely as a Cover (Not closing down more) And have your other CBs be more aggressive to make up for this.

You've basically got a midfield diamond, with your DLP dropping and two support CMs and the AM at the tip of the diamond, so to speak. Perhaps moving the DLP to DM is the basic first step to providing better defensive cover from the midfield, too. If your central CB is covering and your two wide CBs are pushing wider to close down (as Stoppers) then the DM would also help to create a somewhat "defensive diamond" in theory, too... it may not work, it would have to be tested, but in theory it makes sense. 

I also wonder how two CMs on Support would support the attack. 

Ok, I’ll take that on board. The CM’s are on support as the midfield diamond is a crucial part of the buildup play, allowing us many options and so we can take our time. Defensively we are shambolic though, I will definatly try the stoppers with a DLP in the DM strata

[JD nawrat]

6 minutes ago, SmileFaceGamer said:

Ok, I’ll take that on board. The CM’s are on support as the midfield diamond is a crucial part of the buildup play, allowing us many options and so we can take our time. Defensively we are shambolic though, I will definatly try the stoppers with a DLP in the DM strata

Fair play - if it works going forward there's little reason to change that aspect of your game. Hopefully the changes help, would be good to hear how it does

I'd try it myself but I've not got the personnel for it at Torino and I'm too into this save to start fresh