Why did I struggle so much vs this team?

[craiigman]

So this was the 3rd time I played this match I think, and I managed to scrape a 3-2 win in the end.

First game ended them winning 4-1, then the second I quit when they were 3-0 up. In the final game I put out my strongest team (as first 2 games I was rotating the squad, but even the the players I used should easily be capable of winning the game).

I tried control in first game, attacking in second. 4231 wide. Same system/formation I've been using all the time. But Hibs, team in division below had 60% odd possession vs me. They honestly played better vs me than both Arsenal and Madrid did in the UCL. Here is the pkm of the game I won, but it was still a huge struggle and I really don't know why. Can someone look please? https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2QhuaaeWjUnaXdETXNoY1VYUWc

I did go an odd formation in the end to throw everything at it. But really I shouldn't have had to do that when the difference in quality is so large. If they had beat me with 1 shot on target, be typical fm. But they dominated me and they shouldn't have.

[herne79]

You'd have learned far more from the first match you lost 4-1 than you ever will from the match you eventually won after reloading.

But without knowing your detailed tactical set up, precisely what you changed and when during the match, along with some context (for example your form and league position, same for the opposition), commenting on the pkm might be a lot of guesswork I'm afraid.

The reason I say this is because 1) without knowledge of how you are playing we have no starting point; and 2) teams can play differently against you depending on how you and they are performing - so for example if you have just come off a good run of form the opposition may play tighter against you, or more open if you haven't been doing so well.

[craiigman]

6 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You'd have learned far more from the first match you lost 4-1 than you ever will from the match you eventually won after reloading.

But without knowing your detailed tactical set up, precisely what you changed and when during the match, along with some context (for example your form and league position, same for the opposition), commenting on the pkm might be a lot of guesswork I'm afraid.

The reason I say this is because 1) without knowledge of how you are playing we have no starting point; and 2) teams can play differently against you depending on how you and they are performing - so for example if you have just come off a good run of form the opposition may play tighter against you, or more open if you haven't been doing so well.

I'm top of Scottish Prem, unbeaten in league. They were sitting 8th in Championship. I used the same setup as I use normally which has me unbeaten in the league. Yet it was like they were the dominant team. If they had sat back and been hard to break down, and caught me on the counter each time I'd under stand. But the 60% possession they had and twice as many chances has left me clueless.

 

edit: does the pkm not show you my tactical setup? If not I'll post when I get home to wi-fi and laptop is dead

[Mitja]

most probably they used different mentality and playing style than other teams in your division. slow tempo and time wasting, hence such difference in posession stats?   

[herne79]

1 hour ago, craiigman said:

edit: does the pkm not show you my tactical setup?

It won't show tactical settings, just your formation.  So no mentality, team shape, team instructions, player instructions, or even player roles/duties (unless someone is using a skin that show player roles).

[craiigman]

I keep reloading this match, and I just keep getting destroyed. Here is my save: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2QhuaaeWjUnMzA0aFctbjlBSVk

The current line-up is the first one I tried. I've tried different line-ups and different tactics, this Hibs team is just something else. Can someone load my save and see if they can actually beat this Hibs team. I'd really love to know what roles and stuff the Hibs team is using, cause it's tearing everything I throw against it a new one.

First game:

Looking at this, it wasn't great. And I made a few adjustments when game started, Roberts to IF and Mackay to W. The only way I managed to get a result was a deep 4231 on counter, and even then I got very very lucky, even with the strongest line-up I could field.

[craiigman]

this is what I am playing against:

it says defensive at top, but it doesn't play like they are on the back foot what so ever.

[knap]

Team talks by Fitness coach

[craiigman]

8 minutes ago, knap said:

Team talks by Fitness coach

Scraped a 1-0 with 6 shots to their 20.. If Celtic were the Championship team and Hibs top of Prem, this would be a good result. But scraping a win like this doesn't seem right at all. Also what line up did you use?

[craiigman]

They do switch to this if they score/ into the second half. No wonder they are so hard to break down.

 

It's an insane system, but I've checked their other results and they aren't anything like what the put out vs me. It's a weird one for me. I've gone from being annoyed, to genuinely curious as to why this formation works so well. Playing them again now, used their starting system, standard, flexible, no instructions. 0-0 at half time, but I was the slightly better side. Which is still crazy considering the difference in teams.

[knap]

Using 1 of my tactics

[craiigman]

17 minutes ago, knap said:

Using 1 of my tactics

Still only managed 2 shots on target, they were clear cut ones by the looks of it, so had to be good finishing. What was the tactic you used?

[knap]

Cup games are great levellers and often produce closer games than expected.

Just noticed you have their roles. Have you a link to skin?

Fitness coach picked team and only on key highlights and TBH I don't think they had any.

352 is a good formation this year and I used a 3430

[craiigman]

10 minutes ago, knap said:

Cup games are great levellers and often produce closer games than expected.

Just noticed you have their roles. Have you a link to skin?

Fitness coach picked team and only on key highlights and TBH I don't think they had any.

352 is a good formation this year and I used a 3430

Here's the skin: https://sortitoutsi.net/downloads/view/31599/cfm-skin-2017-v10

Only using it for this though, prefer the normal one. But would be cool to have the roles on the default skin somehow.

[herne79]

I just had a quick look, played the match with a 4-2-3-1 and won 2-1 (Celtic were 2-0 up, Hibs nicked a goal near the end).

Your main problem imo is the personnel you are using in the roles.  This is the line up and tactic:

It's quick & dirty and needs work, but like I said above I think your main issue (regardless of which tactic you play) is the players you pick to compliment your roles.

Example - you are playing with a pretty high defensive line (Control mentality), but pick Spahic who can run about as quickly my old gran.  And you don't play the offside trap.  So any through balls / balls over the top that get by Spahic and he simply doesn't have the pace to recover.

Example - you are playing with AMR set as a Winger.  But Patrick Roberts (who is dreadful imo) only has 10 for crossing.  And to make matters worse, he has 5 (!) for Team Work, and don't even get me started on the rest of his mentals.  Stick him on the other wing as an IF or Raumdeuter perhaps if you really want to play him.  I left him in as a winger and he was shocking.

Example - in a 4-2-3-1 you have to have a solid midfield foundation.  You're playing Armstrong and Eboue.  Compare them with my choice of Bitton and Brown.

And why play Izaguirre instead of Tierney?

Start with the roles you pick and their default Player Instructions.  Picture how you expect each role to perform and then look at your player attributes to make sure (as far as possible) that those attributes compliment the roles.

[craiigman]

9 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I just had a quick look, played the match with a 4-2-3-1 and won 2-1 (Celtic were 2-0 up, Hibs nicked a goal near the end).

Your main problem imo is the personnel you are using in the roles.  This is the line up and tactic:

It's quick & dirty and needs work, but like I said above I think your main issue (regardless of which tactic you play) is the players you pick to compliment your roles.

Example - you are playing with a pretty high defensive line (Control mentality), but pick Spahic who can run about as quickly my old gran.  And you don't play the offside trap.  So any through balls / balls over the top that get by Spahic and he simply doesn't have the pace to recover.

Example - you are playing with AMR set as a Winger.  But Patrick Roberts (who is dreadful imo) only has 10 for crossing.  And to make matters worse, he has 5 (!) for Team Work, and don't even get me started on the rest of his mentals.  Stick him on the other wing as an IF or Raumdeuter perhaps if you really want to play him.  I left him in as a winger and he was shocking.

Example - in a 4-2-3-1 you have to have a solid midfield foundation.  You're playing Armstrong and Eboue.  Compare them with my choice of Bitton and Brown.

And why play Izaguirre instead of Tierney?

Start with the roles you pick and their default Player Instructions.  Picture how you expect each role to perform and then look at your player attributes to make sure (as far as possible) that those attributes compliment the roles.

Thanks for doing this. Will touch on a few points though. I went with a few of those player choices as I have a fair few games back to back and wanted to rotate best I could, hence the weaker players. You're right about Spahic though, I just thought it would be okay with them being who they were, which was same for whole line up really. 

As for Roberts, he's done well for me so far, 5 goals 6 assists in 9(5) play him either Winger(s) or IF(S) normally. It's just I don't like 2 IF's, if Sinclair plays he's IF(A).

But no, you're right. Need to think more carefully before just selecting a team of back ups and expecting them to just work. And I clearly under estimated this Hibs side. I still have my save from before this game, will play from here, make my adjustments, if I lose it, I lose it, will just carry on now.

But I will be taking their system forward and seeing what I can do with it. Maybe not on this Celtic save, but a different save.

Thanks again for taking the time.

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

Example - you are playing with AMR set as a Winger.  But Patrick Roberts (who is dreadful imo) only has 10 for crossing.  And to make matters worse, he has 5 (!) for Team Work, and don't even get me started on the rest of his mentals.  Stick him on the other wing as an IF or Raumdeuter perhaps if you really want to play him.  I left him in as a winger and he was shocking.

Example - in a 4-2-3-1 you have to have a solid midfield foundation.  You're playing Armstrong and Eboue.  Compare them with my choice of Bitton and Brown.

That latter may be a good point... in particular against this. Compounding to it likely was that shape they were using (plus their cautious). The stats in the above all give a bit away. Both backs on defend, narrow, that's pretty much begging for a central overload. Whilst that has a few issues in general as of FM 17, that a) is part of the weakness of such formations (the space is behind the CMs), and b) playing weaklings in such positions may have added to it. If you're playing against narrow, having both on defend can consolidate that, as narrow is the space they are going to break into upon intercepting, so keeping central players deeper helps (as the OP's defending shape is also narrow, that also doesn't compress here as much going forward). Player by player he was likely still fielding superior, but any of the above looks interesting by the stats.

4-2-3-1 narrow (which isn't that hugely different) has been a bit of a bogey AI formation for a while for me, even before... the spaces in between the CBs and CMs, 1) forwards dropping off, 2) AMCs 3) anyb ody pushing up from CM (2 box to box here), they'll thrive in that (and they should some imo, naturally). Was actually reminded of one of loopings here... also constant reload, but on FM 2016. Also narrow, funneling all play down that central overloads as the backs don't advance. Except that on FM 16, the wider players tended to help a bit out more defending centrally rather than sticking out there initially anticipating a wide player that never comes... (not to turn to this again, it must be tricky, as you could have those backs sitting back free to recycle endlessly) . So, there was also a tactical level (at such stats against a lower tier side...) But due to the formational switch, in the second half it wasn't "exploited" as much (and they barely got into the box at all throughout, only scoring on a break (35 years young Toure getting outpaced) and off a corner).

Still not unwinnable, apparently. Not much of a tweaker, there's two things I watch out myself ever since. 1) AI switch to 3 central forwards, nuff said. 2) Them decorating that christmas trees and similar. Still missing the days when AI going narrow and defensive, having both wide backs on defend could sometimes be regarded as the ultimate in AI stupidity. Make defending of central areas great again, SI.

[craiigman]

So being using their tactic as one of my own as well as my 4231 with some adjustments. The tactic Hibs used is very good against teams who have an advantage over you, beat Real Madrid 2-1 with it. But it struggles vs weaker teams who sit back, but only because there are simply too many people in the same area, meaning no passing lanes into their box, ends up with lots of shots from edge of area.

Have put both WB's to attack and that offers width, but still a struggle to get through. I'm interested in seeing what I can do with it though, maybe adjustment of roles for the AMC's will work better. 

[craiigman]

This is such a bogey team/formation for me to face. Played them several times since, I haven't replayed any of the other ones but all were draws, last game 0-0, but they still just dominate, the ball, even with a now much stronger team.

Even when I use this setup my team doesn't play anywhere near as quick, fluid, or direct as they play vs me, even when I play vs better opposition in the champions league.

I tend to get stuck on the edge of the oppositions box, with limited movement. Yet they just pass and move their way around, even when I put 2 DM's there.

I really really really just want to smash them as they are starting to get on my nerves and I dread playing them!