4-4-2 Diamond Help Needed.

[SebastianRO]

Hey guys, I need some help with my 4-4-2 diamond formation. In the defensive phase, it works very fine. However, when I build up attacks, something just doesn't work. More specifically, the 2 strikers seem to not get involved in play and dont work one with another. Do you have any ideeas about how to make the 4-4-2 diamond work ?

 

P.S As you can see in the screenshots below, I am using 2 variations: 1 Counter, and 1 Control. I am experiencing the same problem on both (but mostly on the Control strategy).

[kingjericho]

I'm no expert on tactics, but looking at your setup I would ask you the following:

• Do you need all those TIs? It's harder to spot what is not working if you have so many TIs. Keep it simple and add more TIs as the tactic develops and as you spot some details that can be changed;
• The roles of the 'diamond' seem a bit static - the Anchor Man does not contribute to the attacking phase and the two CMs do the same thing in the Support role. Maybe try changing one of these roles?
• You can also try changing the Full Backs to Wing Backs, since they are the only wide players you need them to be adventurous.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, SebastianRO said:

Hey guys, I need some help with my 4-4-2 diamond formation. In the defensive phase, it works very fine. However, when I build up attacks, something just doesn't work. More specifically, the 2 strikers seem to not get involved in play and dont work one with another. Do you have any ideeas about how to make the 4-4-2 diamond work ?

Why would a poacher get involved with build up play?

Im guessing your attacking plan is a possession style but I think you roles are too passive, with two limited roles (anchor & poacher) and two players in central midfield doing the same thing.

Due to this you have no one to transition from defence to attack, and if you do get to attacking phase will rely on the AP and cf a lot.

[SebastianRO]

@kingjericho

@summatsupeer

Thank you for the heads up. What would your setup look like in a 4-4-2 diamond ? I am courious to hear about your thaughts.

 

[Cruyffsheirs]

1 hour ago, SebastianRO said:

 

Thank you for the heads up. What would your setup look like in a 4-4-2 diamond ? I am courious to hear about your thaughts.

 

 

2

For me when I play a Diamond I actually play a 4312. I think the 3 across the midfield is better in defence but that is just personal Preference. I usually make the base of my diamond a DLP(d) for me he plays the Pirlo role and dictates the team. I make the 2 central players workhorses, either cm (s) with Pi's or b2b, and the tip of the diamond I play an Am(a) with move into channels and roam from position, i find that way he generates lots of goals and assists and doesn't take away from the DLP being the heartbeat of the team.

[SebastianRO]

14 hours ago, Cruyffsheirs said:

For me when I play a Diamond I actually play a 4312. I think the 3 across the midfield is better in defence but that is just personal Preference. I usually make the base of my diamond a DLP(d) for me he plays the Pirlo role and dictates the team. I make the 2 central players workhorses, either cm (s) with Pi's or b2b, and the tip of the diamond I play an Am(a) with move into channels and roam from position, i find that way he generates lots of goals and assists and doesn't take away from the DLP being the heartbeat of the team.

This is how I used to setup my diamond (but I actually used a DM) in previous editions of FM. However, in this edition (same like in FM16) something doesn't seem to work well in the attack. How about the strikers ? 1 Attack + 1 support ?

[summatsupeer]

16 hours ago, SebastianRO said:

@kingjericho

@summatsupeer

Thank you for the heads up. What would your setup look like in a 4-4-2 diamond ? I am courious to hear about your thaughts.

 

I could setup one up a dozen different ways depending what i'm making and have available.  You always want a good balance with the team and good combinations within it.

With four central midfielders there's a lot of combinations, but it's important to get width from your DL+DR so the central players have space.  You always need a mix of holders, runners and creators and really they can be anywhere in that four man midfield.  To balance attacking fullbacks typically one of the central players will be very strong defensively but there will be a second who is pretty good defensively but will offer something else, either energy/mobility or creativity.  From there you need to balance what your front two are doing and how your creating and where the runners are from and how aggressive they are.

For example if you had a Regista in DM, you'd look for the CM duo to be good defensively, maybe a CM and BWM and have the AM be another creator.  Another option could be to have a more conservative DM creator such as a DLP, one of the central two a conservative holding role and then a creator like a RPM, allowing the AM to be a runner such as a SS-A/AM-A.  Another option could be to have a defensive focused DM with a DLP-S and a runner such as a BBM/CM-A with an AP-A in AM.  There's tons of options, just try to balance them.

[SebastianRO]

3 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I could setup one up a dozen different ways depending what i'm making and have available.  You always want a good balance with the team and good combinations within it.

With four central midfielders there's a lot of combinations, but it's important to get width from your DL+DR so the central players have space.  You always need a mix of holders, runners and creators and really they can be anywhere in that four man midfield.  To balance attacking fullbacks typically one of the central players will be very strong defensively but there will be a second who is pretty good defensively but will offer something else, either energy/mobility or creativity.  From there you need to balance what your front two are doing and how your creating and where the runners are from and how aggressive they are.

For example if you had a Regista in DM, you'd look for the CM duo to be good defensively, maybe a CM and BWM and have the AM be another creator.  Another option could be to have a more conservative DM creator such as a DLP, one of the central two a conservative holding role and then a creator like a RPM, allowing the AM to be a runner such as a SS-A/AM-A.  Another option could be to have a defensive focused DM with a DLP-S and a runner such as a BBM/CM-A with an AP-A in AM.  There's tons of options, just try to balance them.

Thanks for the tip. I will try.

[Rashidi]

I was playing a diamond on my latest season for around 3 months. I have to say its a deadly system if done right. Its really the only system that can control two vital areas of the pitch. In my system I literally had a double playmaker combination as my 2 central midfielders, at the back we had a regular DM, up front I played with a poacher and alternated it with either a DF or a TM, it all depended on whether I needed someone to play with their backs to goal and bring other in.  IMHO the poacher is the most under rated role in the game, and can be played very effectively. The key lies in understanding how the other roles work with it.

The poacher needs space to attack, and you need the right player for a poacher. Beside him you have choices, if you have a DF he holds up the ball and brings others in. However the poacher is different, his job is to harass the defensive line, he stands on the shoulder of the last man, and attacks the spaces. So you want to have options in attack .You will also need the right shouts, like pass into space.

The flanks are interesting and this depends entirely on how you want to play. I have alternated between a flank attack and a non flank attack. In one, we keep the flanks on defend duty because we simply want to make it harder for the AI, so we gift the space and utilise the roles in the middle to prise defences open, here the choice of using twin DLPs works, because they are both playmakers looking to open up defences. On occasion I have also used the flanks.

I have to say I enjoyed playing the diamond so much it felt like one of those systems that are too easy to perfect. Believe me when I say this, its one of the best systems out there, on par on even better than the 4312, which should be considered its more attacking variant. 

[SebastianRO]

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I was playing a diamond on my latest season for around 3 months. I have to say its a deadly system if done right. Its really the only system that can control two vital areas of the pitch. In my system I literally had a double playmaker combination as my 2 central midfielders, at the back we had a regular DM, up front I played with a poacher and alternated it with either a DF or a TM, it all depended on whether I needed someone to play with their backs to goal and bring other in.  IMHO the poacher is the most under rated role in the game, and can be played very effectively. The key lies in understanding how the other roles work with it.

The poacher needs space to attack, and you need the right player for a poacher. Beside him you have choices, if you have a DF he holds up the ball and brings others in. However the poacher is different, his job is to harass the defensive line, he stands on the shoulder of the last man, and attacks the spaces. So you want to have options in attack .You will also need the right shouts, like pass into space.

The flanks are interesting and this depends entirely on how you want to play. I have alternated between a flank attack and a non flank attack. In one, we keep the flanks on defend duty because we simply want to make it harder for the AI, so we gift the space and utilise the roles in the middle to prise defences open, here the choice of using twin DLPs works, because they are both playmakers looking to open up defences. On occasion I have also used the flanks.

I have to say I enjoyed playing the diamond so much it felt like one of those systems that are too easy to perfect. Believe me when I say this, its one of the best systems out there, on par on even better than the 4312, which should be considered its more attacking variant. 

Thanks for the reply Rashidi. I am following your youtube series for a year now and I learned a lot. 4-4-2 diamond is my favourite system all time. I am playing this since FM2010 and I had success with it until FM16. I was also using double playmaker in midfield anchored by an Anchor Man in past editions and was working great. Now, my midfield seems to do a great job at defense. I literally had the most epic defence showdown in my last game (vs Atletico Madrid), but I struggle to create chances unless the opposition attacks me. If they do, I slaughter them on the counter, but if the defend in numbers, my AMC is non-existent and my 2 strikers are constantly marked to death. My current setup is in the screens below. For now, its good because it gives me the most solid defending I ever had in a 4-4-2 diamond (and i need it at the moment because i am having a very hard group in UCL), but I would like to alternate this version of the system with a more attacking one that is able to open up defending teams. In the past (2010-2015) I was almost always playing Structured - Attacking in this system and worked great. However, in FM17 if I do that, it kinda works sometimes, but it looks very very different than it used to. If you don't mind, I have 1 more question regarding to the tip of the diamond (AM role). Someone suggested to play an AM - A as a runner. If I am using a poacher, would it benefit from such a role behind him or he needs someone more like an Enganche who can create and drag opponenes out ?

[summatsupeer]

It's easier to attack space that is given by teams that commit players forward in attack than having to create it against teams that sit deep and play safe.  A lot of topics here are because of the posters team overachieving, resulting in opponents reassessing the expected result and playing safer. You can see this from the odds shifting from the game expecting you to be beaten to expecting a draw or you to win.

As I said earlier, there's tons of combinations that are balanced, but remember different players will play the same role differently due to attribute and trait differences.  You could have an AP-S in CM, but if you play Herrera or Mata you'll get a different type of performance.  Sometimes the role is right for the tactic but you need a different player to improve the performance.   In this example Mata would be a lot weaker defensively than Herrera but should create and score more, depending who is around him this might be acceptable, if not you could change player without changing the tactic to change the balance.

You don't need to have different roles/duties, a well balanced tactic should allow you to change team mentality and shape as you see fit.  Of course you can as many different tactics as you like, but you might find it easier to develop one at a time so you get familiar with it and can see how changes you make affect it.

I wouldn't just look at the AM position and Poacher role in isolation, who is partnering the Poacher and where are the creators?  Is the second forward a creator dropping deep or a player who keeps in simple like the DF?  Are there playmakers deeper who can create chances for the front 3? Are the front two looking to get in behind like in your screenshot, if so is there space created for another runner?

[beardymouse]

I've had lots of success with Crystal Palace in a 4-4-2 diamond (two top 3 finishes, although I'm a few years in and only have Benteke and Soure as regular starters from the current day squad). Unfortunately I'm away from the game so can't post screengrabs, but will try and explain a few ideas that work for me.

Firstly - very aggressive full backs. I play them as wing backs on attacking mentality. They are my most attacking players and they rack up the assists. I always look for good stamina, work rate and crossing. Cyrus Christie (of Derby irl) has been a world-beater in this position. Now I have more money, I brought in Pedro Pereira for the DR position and he got the highest average rating in the EPL in his first season. 

The problem with this is the space the wing backs leave and it leaves us vulnerable to the counter attacks - Leicester are my nemesis. To counter this, I try to have a solid middle five (two centre backs, one DM, and two CMs). I love a ball-winning midfielder, they tend to quickly fill the space and cover counter attacks. I got a regen called Mitchell Abbot who is fast DM and is an absolute machine in this role. I'm in my fifth season now and he's already at 3.5 CA (4.5 PA) and has 7 England caps. I actually tend to play him in CM (as a BWM) and have Thiago Maia in the DM role (also BWM). The other midfield role is a CM-S

One problem I've had is that the two BWMs (one CM one DM) go for the same man. I'm trying a few things to counter this - one is having three across the middle - two BWMs either side of a DLP-D. This has been pretty good, although it doesn't let me mark a strong AMC out of the game, which I do when I have a DM. I should probably just change the DM role to an anchor, I will experiment.

In the DC positions I have two BPDs. I love a ball playing defender because I like the old Shankly saying about 'attack beginning in defence'. As I've performed better in the league, and with massive help from this forum I've focused my defenders on having good decision making. That's pretty much priority two for my entire team (after high determination). They also need decent height, jumping reach, and positioning given the number of crosses I concede.

Up top, I have a Target Man (I have Benteke), I've started using a Poacher because I've got a high PA Poacher just emerged and I want to make him the superstar he can be. My main issue isn't scoring goals from the strikers, but it's having an effective AMC. I use an Advanced Playmaker and whoever I play there tends to vary between 6.4 games and 8.5 games. It's very bizarre and I haven't figured that bit out yet. 

I'm starting to ramble into a help post of my own (and my experiments with wingers and a AMC, AMC, CF triangle as I try to figure out how to unlock teams that go purely defensive against me), but hopefully there's something in my experience that helps you. 

[SebastianRO]

@summatsupeer

Thanks for the information provided. I was away for a couple of days and I just came back and see your posts. I agree to everything you said and trust me, that is exactly my mindset aswell. My most common issue with 4-4-2 diamond is the attack (if you can believe it). Lets look at the front 3 in isolation for a second: If I give the AMC  an attacking duty, he will go further (outside the 16 yard box). Now, 1 of the strikers is on Support duty and 1 is on Attack duty. If the AM goes so far forward, he will enter in the space designated for the Supporting striker, overlapping themselves (which is unwanted). This causes the 3rd striker (the attacking one) to remain isolated and/or marked out. Until FM15, the AMC's were more adventurous, they dribbled more and they were far far more penetrating into the box. Now, with that in mind you could create a completly different 4--4-2 diamond. Nowdays it seem to me that the AMC's are very very inneficient for some reason. In my personal opinion I think this is due to the fact that starting FM16, teams defend much much narrower than they used to and this renders AMC's close to useless. Maybe I'm completly wrong, but this is my personal take on the matter.

@beardymouse

It seems that your style is to attack and break down opposition down the flanks. This is somehow opposed to what I like to do in a 4-4-2 diamond, that is to attack through the middle. I too use the flanks, but more for recycle posession and width / passing options. I would love to use target man - poacher. This was my perfect combination in FM12, but nowdays it's very very hard to find good Target Man's that can play at the highest level. As I said a few rows above, I am having the same issue with the AMC as you do. As for your DM "issue", all I can say is that I never use  a BMW in that position. I either use a Anchor Man or a DM-D because it protects the defensive line much better and doesn't overlap with my MC's.