Creating Man city's 4-1-4-1 tactic.

[Jyuan83]

I thought that since there is a dedicated Chelsea thread on their 3-4-3 tactic, a 4-1-4-1 discussion on man city's playing style would not go out of place here.

Did some reading on whoscored.com on the relevant details of their playing style and characteristics of their key players and this is what i have come up with.

GK-Sweeper keeper(defend)-Fits the bill of what playing from the back is about at city. With PI to pass to central defenders.

DL-Left full back (support)-sometimes this guy will be an IWB or just a normal fullback that comes in narrower to form a 3-man defence when the IWB goes up to the midfield. As of now the ME still cannot form a collapsed 3 man backline of that nature so i opted to just keep things simple with a vanilla fullback without any PI.

DR-Right IWB-depending on how guardiola likes it, either the right or left fullback plays as the IWB to help with the midfield presence. No PI here as the role is perfect just as it is.

DRC- Ball-playing defender

DLC- ball playing defender

DMC-DLP on defend-this role used to be the half-back role played by fernandinho but yaya toure has recently been doing really well in the DMC slot as a deep-lying playmaker, making lovely passes all over the pitch with his impressive passing range. No PI here.

ML-WM on attack-The leroy sane role with PI to dribble more, cross less often and cross from byline. The key is to encourage him to make more cutbacks from the byline instead of pumping crosses blindly like how city does it with Aguero being not too physically imposing enough to win headers in the area.

MR-winger on attack. The sterling role. No PI here. I could make him a copy of the WM on the left side but would like to try out seeing a winger role on the right. 

MCR-AP support-The Silva role is really hard to define as he often drops deep to get balls and start off plays. Thinking of playing him as an advanced playmaker on support will make sense here.

MCL-AP attack-IF the Silva role was hard to define, then choosing the right one with Kevin De Bruyne will be even harder. He seems to be average more shots on goal than Silva and is currently top of the assists chart for city so AP on attack will do fine here. PI to get further forward.

FW-CF on support-Aguero before guardiola was all about scoring goals and nothing else but in the current guardiola era, Aguero's game is evolving towards getting more involved in the overall attack. Thinking of DLF here as well but will give CF on support a try.No PI.

Team instructions

Control, fluid, pass it shorter, close down more, attack down flanks.

Keeping it simple with the instructions as well. Just trying out the default roles and a few PIs to get an overall feel of the tactic. 

Hope to read about how you guys try to make City's tactic(4-1-4-1, 4-3-3)

Cheers.

[vasilli07]

I went with 2 IWBs in a 4-1-2-2-1(4-3-3).

The 2 CMs will be 1 CM(A) pairing with BBM(S). Both should have good off the ball, vision and passing so they will be given roam from position and try through balls PI. The pairing roles also give space for the IWBs to move into.

The 2 wide players role with depend on their PIs. For eg, if they have cut inside with ball PPM, they will be instruct to play as winger and vice versa as IF role. Guardiola likes his wide players to stay near to the touchline so both wide players will have stay wider PI.

For striker, I like the DF(S) role. He works hard and is more selfish with his finishing. DLF/CF seems to create more for their teammates.

 

[fmjeros]

I would start with a simple 4141. The fullbacks are definitely support and probably depending on the opponent one could be IWB. At DMC slot when Fernadinho plays he is probably more of a DM(s) and Toure DLP(s). The two wingers hug the touchline but they do not cross so we have one realistic option in FM, WM(a) with stay wider,dribble more*, cross less often. The double 8's in the 2 central slots is one interesting trick he did this year with these exceptional players. David Silva is more of a roaming playmaker and Kevin more like a central winger CM(a) with PI's dribble more,roam from position,moves into channels. Aguero is trying to fit into pep's tactic and if the brazilian wonderkid Gabriel Jesus hadn't been injured he probably would be the backup striker. He is more of a CF(s) and pep wants his strikers to drop really deep to help with possession. In terms of mentality i would go with anything between counter and control and team shape probably structured. I had great success with Southampton playing this way and really enjoyed the football we produced. 

[Jyuan83]

Thanks guys for your replies to this post. Had some great ideas from reading them. Regarding the wide players i think we can more or les settle on them being dribble more with cross less often with stay wider or maybe run wide with the ball as the PIs. One thing i noticed from how the wide players play for city is that they rarely cut inside as most of the time, they tend to run in behind the defence via the channels. Pep seems to have an aversion towards making the central part of the pitch too congested for the double 8's to perform, so to have them cut inside would be counterproductive and leave not much space for the double 8's to exploit. @vasilli07 i like your train of thought regarding the BBM and CM with PIs to drive forward and be creative with their passing so as to allow room for the IWBs to advance up towards the midfield. @fmjeros how are your wide players scoring and assisting for you? 

[fmjeros]

As i said i manage Southampton, on the right wing Redmond who is very similar to Sterling in 37 appearances has 12 goals and 12 assists, on the left wing Tadic in 41 appearances has 9 goals and 19 assists. One thing i really love is the diagonal passes especially down the right wing which is something i didn't notice when i had the wingers in the AM strata. It may help that my right full back is IWB and occupies the MCR slot who is on MCa duty and makes lots of forward runs so it's a kind of an overload on the right side of the pitch. When i started playing this way i used fluid but i noticed we were too congested so i switched to structured which helps the team to be more spread on the field. Generally from what i have seen till now more structured shapes play better with bottom heavy formations. I had an idea yesterday and started to teach my wingers to hug the touchline, don't know if it would be beneficial but i will try it and tell you if it helps.

https://youtu.be/fdhMCut4Njc

[callamity]

I found this there's a couple links within the post that further delve into the 4141 and guardiolas use of certain players from his time at bayern. 

 

Might give some further insight to what he is trying at man city

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bavarianfootballworks.com/platform/amp/2013/7/17/4530782/bayern-munich-pep-guardiola-4-1-4-1-tactics-flexibility-schweinsteiger-kroos-alcantara-martinez

[felipemendes08]

I did not watched much Man City matches this season but as a Guardiola's playstyle fan I tried to learn and analyse as much as I can when I did have the opportunity (vs Swansea, West Ham, Barcelona, etc)

I can be wrong but I think that City usually have two mentalities: offensive mode and a more controller mode... the former is used when looking to score and the latter to control the possession, generally when winning

In both they play with possession football, short passes, focusing in build-up from the back and wing-orientated approach, but, basically, the offensive mode presents a three-man frontline (Sané-Aguero-Sterling) highly positioned, with the ball-near forward combining and laying-off passes to overload one side and then invert the ball to the other side where a winger is positioned to dribble/low cross from the byline to a first-post runner Aguero, or the midfielders and other-side winger running to the box to finish (Pep says that the important is not to stay in the box but run in to); while the controlled mode look to maintain possession in the midfield, with less forward runs from the 8's, lower tempo and a deeper frontline, dragging opponent defenders and opening gaps to third-man runs from the forwards

A third mentality exists too, the way they played with Barcelona in the UCL group stage, a deeper back line with all players defending, counter-attacking in a more direct style and mentally high demanding. Virtually only applies against possession-based strong sides, in the likes of Barcelona, Bayern or PSG

Sorry for my bad english, this is not my primary language

[Jyuan83]

Thanks for the link @callamity , really liked how the focus is on creating space for the central playmakers, the central midfielders to exploit and create goals for the attacking players. @felipemendes08 i agree with your view of how pep likes his players to score goals. It is almost always about overloading one side of the pitch before making a cutback from the byline to an onrushing player. Sane's goal against Huddersfield at the FA cup is a very good example of this 

Note how he suddenly ghosted in to score instead of just waiting in the box to score. If City can maintain this pattern of play then they will have no issue with scoring goals. As of now they are still too dependent on Aguero to score the goals. Man city tends to focus their attacks down the right flank with sterling positioned quite high up the pitch, almost level with aguero at times. As of now he has 9 goals and 8 assists according to whoscored.com while Sane is on 7 goals and 3 assists. So i think winger attack on the right flank with WM on attack duty on the left with stay wider, cross less often, cross from byline and dribble more will suffice. 

[jax9320]

Love the tactic and definitely what i'm going for with my city career. What do you guys think are the best roles for the two 8's? I see @vasilli07 mentioned a CM(A) and a BBM(S), but if youre gonna play with city then those two players are probably going to be Silva and KDB, i dont think either of them could be a BBM. Right now i have KDB as AP(A) and Silva as AP(S), but im not sure if two APs right next to each other is optimal. Any thoughts?

[vasilli07]

7 hours ago, jax9320 said:

Love the tactic and definitely what i'm going for with my city career. What do you guys think are the best roles for the two 8's? I see @vasilli07 mentioned a CM(A) and a BBM(S), but if youre gonna play with city then those two players are probably going to be Silva and KDB, i dont think either of them could be a BBM. Right now i have KDB as AP(A) and Silva as AP(S), but im not sure if two APs right next to each other is optimal. Any thoughts?

They are the 'free' number 8 roles. AP at the CM position may restrict their movement. And the 2 IWBs will need the space to operate in when they cut inside, that's why I chose 2 roles which vacate the space.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/aug/18/the-question-kevin-de-bruyne-silva-free-roles

[Rash-forwards]

On 31/03/2017 at 19:55, jax9320 said:

Love the tactic and definitely what i'm going for with my city career. What do you guys think are the best roles for the two 8's? I see @vasilli07 mentioned a CM(A) and a BBM(S), but if youre gonna play with city then those two players are probably going to be Silva and KDB, i dont think either of them could be a BBM. Right now i have KDB as AP(A) and Silva as AP(S), but im not sure if two APs right next to each other is optimal. Any thoughts?

I would try David Silva as RPM next to Kev as AP(a) with Roam From Position enabled, as I've used a similar pairing at united in a 433 which worked very well, especially against smaller teams. Not sure what their PPMs are but those could be crucial in how they play, e.g. I would want silva to dictate tempo and play one-twos, and De Bruyne to try killer balls more often. Not sure how these roles would tie in with IWBs as I never use them, hope this helps 

[Jyuan83]

I think if the player's attributes are that of a playermaker meaning good passing, flair and visison then playing him even as a BBM will cause the role to behave like a playmaker of sorts while still retaining the characteristics of leaving space for the IWB to exploit. It has been very interesting for me to research more and more into man city's tactic. The more i know about it the less confident i am about my own tactic emulation LOL. Pep likes to achieve a 3-2-2-3 formation during the attacking phase. So it is either the DM dropping down between two centre-backs to for a back 3 with the two IWBs moving into midfield or have just one fb as an IWB to move into midfield with the DM to form the midfield double pivot and having the other fb move in narrower as a pseudo centre-back to form the back 3. Regardless of how this is achieved, he wants a double pivot during the attacking phase. 

So far i tried both types of creating the double pivot. Using two IWBs tend to leave your flanks exposed especially when they send a straight ball down the flank to an onrushing winger to cross to the striker to finish. But the good thing about having two IWBs is that you really dominate against weaker teams, by dominate i mean 20 plus shots and more than 60 % possession. Using one IWB tends to make things better at the back, only issue is in making the other full back play as a centre-back during the attack. Maybe a limited/defensive fullback with sit narrower?

As for the silva and de bruyne combo in midfield, i have tried RPM and CM(a) and the reasons have been quite good but not enough to make me sit up and say hmmmm we are going somewhere here. Will try BBM and CM(a) to see how it works. I am happy with the wingers and their roles so far, playing like how I want them to play in accordance to how sane and sterling move. The striker though is another issue worth discussing. I have tried Cf(s) and Df(s) but just cannot seem to get a good feel of how aguero and gabriel jesus play for man city. They drop deep and go wide very often in games and do a lot of link up play so much so that you would often see aguero in midfield more than hanging off the shoulder of the last man. Thinking of trying treq in the striker role to see how it goes.

[roggiotis]

9 hours ago, Jyuan83 said:

Thinking of trying treq in the striker role to see how it goes.

Try Treq in the AMC position , 41410

[vasilli07]

The 2 IWBs experiment is a failure for me. They bomb up too far and often leaving your 2 central defenders(even with a halfback in front) chasing shadows when the opposition plays a though ball to the flanks. The defence just looks like a mess. Maybe a 3 defenders will make it more defensively stable.

For a more defensively sound ver, I will play with only 1 IWB.

FB(S) - Stay wider

2xCB

IWB(S) - On the side of CM(A) to occupy his position.

DLP(S)

CM(S) - CM(A) - Changed from B2B as I think the CM also make enough movement. CM(A) with roam from position, close down more and shoot less often.

IF(S) - Stay forward, close down more, tackle harder and shoot less often. Just want him to defend abit more so I made him a 'false attacking IF'.

W(S) - Close down more, tackle harder and shoot less often. On the side of IWB.

DF(S) - Move into channels and hold up ball. Tried this with several strikers(Falcao, Immobile and Bacca) and they end up being the top scorer.

 

[Jyuan83]

@roggiotis good tip on using the treq in the amc spot, the player plays more Aguero, very nice to see him run onto balls and getting defenders out of position. Wanted to try a shadow striker there but think he might be too aggressive in driving forward instead of getting others involved. For a while the 4-1-4-1-0 worked well but in terms of goals we suffered a bit so that prompted me to think of a new way of making things happen.

Recently saw man city play out 4-2-3-1 against chelsea and hull city but what might look like a 4-2-3-1 on paper actually transits into a 4-1-4-1 during possession and further evolves into a 3-2-2-3 as the attack gathers momentum in the final third.  So my tactic looks something like this.

Gk-defend

FB(S)

2 x CB

FB(S)-Tempted to make this a wb(s) given how he transformed jesus navas into one and i for one am really liking how navas performs in this role. 

DMC-defend

DMC-support-Sort of like how Fabian Delph plays like a BBM from the dm strata to help in the transition from 4-2-3-1 to 4-1-4-1. The DM(s) role is very underrated in my opinion.

ML-WM(a)-Run wide with ball, cross less often, cross from byline, dribble more. Sometime staying too wide can hamper in how he gets in the box to create or score goals so hopefully this will make things better in the final third. No point pumping in crosses senselessly.(might try cut in with stay wide and dribble more)

MR-WM(a)- City often focuses the attacks down the right with the conversion of jesus navas to a right wingback so having Sterling as a WM(a) with dribble more and cross from byline will help matters down this flank with his varied movement. Having a winger(a) here will leave no space out wide for our navas to bomb down. 

MC-AP(a)-With get further forward as the only PI to get our Silva creating goals in the final third.

AMC-Treq-Might try out @vasilli07 suggestion to use DF(s) with move into channels and hold up ball here.

[felipemendes08]

@Jyuan83 ur right about the double pivot, in the first season at Bayern, Pep has used Kroos/Thiago as halfback when in build-up while Alaba and Lahm/Rafinha should went inside in the second line. In the second season with a more improved build-up was possible to see the same with Xabi/Vidal at halfback or a variation with Alaba/Bernat as "b2b centre-back" and Lahm/Rafinha in the IWB role.

...

Use Aguero/Jesus at AMC with Sane and Sterling at LM/RM isn't prejudicial to the depth? I would like to know how it works with your entire front line at the same strata, with the wing boys instructed to Get Forward Further More to break lines at pace

Edit: play down the flanks + from the back provide more involvement from the IWBs, providing more internal movements to recreate the IWB roles we're trying?

 

[roggiotis]

On 10/4/2017 at 04:18, Jyuan83 said:

 For a while the 4-1-4-1-0 worked well but in terms of goals we suffered a bit

What do you mean ?

you couldn't score or you conceded easily ?