Combining Pep's Attack with the defensive mindset of Italy! ...and failing

[DaSchnitz]

Intro

I've been playing this game for quite some time now and my grip on tactics is tenuous at best. Lately, I feel as if all the changes I make in order to correct things I see in the game end up hurting me even more. I've devoured most of the fantastic reads on these forums (Cleon's Art of ... series, Rashidi's threads/videos, Ö-zil's in-depth analyses, and so much more*) and they make me feel like I understand the game more. But then, somehow the ideas I come up with after reading them don't translate so well into the game. Anyways, I figured that I've lurked these forums for long enough and that it's time for me to post. So let's get started! I'm structuring this post in a such a way that will, hopefully, best convey the kind of football I'm trying to get my team to play. 

* If you have not read any of those, and the links to other articles, I highly recommend you do! I could spend days just picking their brains about this game

Style of Football

A lot of posts mention that you should draw inspiration from real life and use that to build your tactic. Aside from that being good advice, there are some really interesting reads out there about different managers and how they approach the game! But let's get to the point. 

As many others on these forums, I take inspiration from Pep Guardiola. However, I personally like the style he used at Barcelona the most. At Bayern, I feel like he made more use of the brilliant defenders he had at his disposal and used them much more directly in the build-up play. I haven't seen any of his City games so I can't make any comments there. At Barcelona, Guardiola followed in his mentor's footsteps - aside from the formation, he had a few key hallmarks that are present in Cruyff's system as well. The one I'm most concerned with is the idea of a conductor that is present in both systems. A player, typically in the defensive midfield strata, that 'conducts' the game. Or, put differently, the player that dictates the tempo of the game and is the focal point of the system - both going forward, and in defense. I also really like Pep's ideology when going forward. To be concise, Pep believes that it is his role as Manager to provide a framework that allows players to move the ball up the pitch into the final third. From there, the players have all the freedom to do whatever they want in order to open up the defense and score. He's a firm believer in players' attacking instinct and, essentially, providing a system that allows players to make use of this attacking instinct.  I think that about sums up how I want my team to go about attacking.

On the defensive side, there are a couple things that I agree on with Pep. First, I also think that the team should defend as one unit. By that, I mean that if one player goes to challenge an opposition player, his teammates should adjust accordingly in order to cover him. And second, I also think that the defense is the where most attacks start. In other words, I want my team to play out of the back. Now another famous football player that I draw inspiration from is none other than Paolo Maldini. I think this quote just about sums up why, "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake." It's a simple quote but I think it purveys something so eloquent about football and the art of defense. Yes, we have great tacklers of the ball (Rio Ferdinand, Phillip Lahm, and Carles Puyol to name a few) but I think it is much more impressive and sustainable to have a defense that cuts out attacks in the build-up. Tackles become more of a last resort and positioning coupled with a good understanding of the game become the primary way of shutting down the opposition.

So how does this translate to the game? Well, my defense should be fairly structured in order to cut down the options for the opposition. The midfielders and attackers in front of the defense should harry the opposition and force them into a rash decision which, ideally, results in a turnover. From there, the team should build the attack patiently from the back until we get to the transition between the middle third and the attacking third. At this point, I leave it to my players to open up the opposition by allowing them complete freedom to use their 'attacking instinct'. This should provide some unpredictability in the attack in the form of variety. One of the many great authors on these forums said you should be able to put your system, your style of play into a sentence or two. Along those lines I think my system is best described by the following sentence:

Defend with intelligence, build patiently, and open up the opposition by allowing attacking players complete freedom in the final third. 

Club DNA

This is something I think I first read about from one of Rashidi's articles (or videos). It's something I've always done subconsciously by favoring certain types of players over others but I think it helps to lay it out. I'll break my Club DNA out into three sections: General, Attacking, and Defending. I think they are intuitive categories but I'll elaborate a bit anyways. I think what makes my defenders great is much different from what makes my attackers great. Sure, there'll be some common attributes and that's the reason for 'General' but for the most part there are attributes that are relatively specific to a particular phase of play in the game. 

General:

• First Touch - Since my build up is patient, I want to make sure all my players have a first touch that will not let them down and concede possession too easily.
• Passing - Again, I want my build up to be patient and the best way to get the ball up the pitch is through passing.
• Composure - Patience is key. I want my players to be composed on the ball and make good decisions in tight situations.
• Decisions - Kind of goes hand in hand with Composure.
• Teamwork - The team should work as a unit and not depend on any one player. 
• Anticipation - The team needs to be able to read the game well in order to cut out attacks in defense and open up the opposition in attack.

Attacking:

• Dribbling - In the final third players have the freedom to rely on their 'attacking instinct' and dribbling adds another dynamic to the game.
• Flair - I think this attribute essentially embodies the idea of 'attacking instinct'. 
• Off The Ball - If I'm going to give my players freedom in the final third, they best be able to attack that space!

Defending:

• Positioning - If positioned correctly, the defense can limit the options the opposition has and force a mistake.
• Tackling - Even though Maldini considered that tackling was an admission of a mistake, he was still a fearsome tackler of the ball.
• Concentration - Teams generally tend to be more aggressive towards the end of a game and I need my defense to be sharp for the entire game.

Tactics

So how did I try to implement this in the game? Well, here's how I've tried to carry my ideas across:

Let me explain the reasoning behind the Team Instructions first, then the roles.

• Control - That's exactly what I'm looking to do - control the game by denying the opposition any good attacking options and by carefully building up our own attack. 
• Fluid - I've experimented with this one a lot and I'm still not really sure about it. The thinking is that I want my team to play as a unit to an extent - that is, attackers harry the opposition and defenders limit the options going forward. By closing down the space between the lines I should have more options available in order to build up my attack. Finally, in the attacking third I want my players to be creative and take advantage of their attacking abilities. 
• Slightly Deeper - Again, not 100% on this one but in theory I want my defenders to limit the attacking options as opposed to constantly closing down the opposition. 
• Close Down Much More - This is more geared towards my attacking players, but again, not 100%.
• Play Out Of Defense - Definitely 100% on this one! I want my players to play out of defense.
• Work Ball Into Box - The thinking here is that it'll make my players a bit more patient in their build up.

Now the roles:

• GK (D) - Pretty simple stuff, just a goalkeeper. Should be able to play with the ball at his feet though.
• FB (S) - Primarily defensive but will support the attack and provide width in the build-up.
• CB (D) - My Maldini #1. 
• CB (D) - My Maldini #2.
• FB (A) - Primarily defensive but will help out with the build-up and attack a bit more than his counterpart on the right. 
• DLP (D) - This is my 'conductor'. I want him to bring the ball out of defense and be the beginning of the attack. He should also be the Guardiola character in front of the defense.
• BBM (S) - This is my 'shuttler'. Someone who will run up and down the pitch providing support where needed. 
• AP (A) - Kind of an Iniesta-esque player. Someone who has great range, vision, and dribbling ability to really drive at the defense.
• IF (A) - One of the main threats on my team. He should constantly be looking to attack space and receive the ball in dangerous positions or dribble into dangerous positions.
• IF (S) - A toned-down version of his counterpart on the right. He will look to do the same but not be overly selfish.
• CF (S/A) - I want him spearhead the line so that the midfield has room to play into. Even though he's the other main threat he should also be involved in the build up by dragging defenders out of position and playing others into space.

The primary attackers in this formation should be the wingers, the striker, and the advanced playmaker with the BBM(S) making late runs into the box. Width should be provided by the fullbacks and the 'conductor' will be there to recycle possession as well as surprise the opposition with long balls and through balls. At least in theory...

What works and what doesn't

I wish it were just as easy to correct the issues I spot in game as it is to notice them in the first place. Alas, I find it more difficult and so here I am! 

In defense, the issues I notice are largely related to closing down from what I can tell. My defense is slow to close down in and around the box. I've played against lower-table teams in which their striker has had the time to receive the ball in the box, turn, take a shot, and score while the defender was cutting off his options. It just seems like we wait too long to close down in the defensive third. However, when I muck about with the Defensive Line setting, I feel like they end up closing down too readily and as a result get drawn out of position. That being said, my attacking midfielders do a great job of harrying the opposition on the ball!

In attack, I can see glimpses of the style I want us to play but they are fleeting. It seems like my players are in a rush to get the ball up the pitch and will often forego easy options in order to try long through balls to one of the front three with little success. That being said, the times when we are in the final third, I've seen brilliant one-twos that open up their defense and allow runners through. I've seen great crosses that are played in that tiny space where between the last defender and the goalkeeper that my striker and opposite winger attack. I've seen wonderful through balls that leave the opposition stranded. But for each of those moments, I see three or four plays where I facepalm a little too hard... Players trying through balls from behind the center circle and not as a counter attack. Players taking shots when the better option is to lay it off to someone else. Players tending to be way more ambitious than the situation requires. For example, trying to switch the ball from one side to the other in one risky pass when there are two easy midfield options available. 

To give a bit of context, I'm currently playing with 1. F.C. Köln. They start as bottom-table side but through the signings and the youth I've brought in, we should be, by my best judgement, a top-half team. We're sitting in 10th at the moment and struggling from game to game. For example, I'll beat Wolfsburg 2-0 away from home only to tie Augsburg 1-1 at home and lose to Paderborn 0-1 away from home...

Final Words

If you've read this far, kudos to you! Hopefully, another set of eyes will be able to see what I can't and help me improve my tactic. I feel like every alteration, every tweak I make has the opposite effect of what I intend and it's driving me crazy! Anyways, again, if you've read this far, props to you and thank you for taking the time if nothing else!

[noikeee]

It's too late to write much but you talk about hurried and overly ambitious decisions from your players, I think this is the control mentality, that is pretty attacking and high risk-taking, try toning it down (might need adjusting all the other settings to compensate). 

[Keyzer Soze]

7 hours ago, DaSchnitz said:

What works and what doesn't

I wish it were just as easy to correct the issues I spot in game as it is to notice them in the first place. Alas, I find it more difficult and so here I am! 

In defense, the issues I notice are largely related to closing down from what I can tell. My defense is slow to close down in and around the box. I've played against lower-table teams in which their striker has had the time to receive the ball in the box, turn, take a shot, and score while the defender was cutting off his options. It just seems like we wait too long to close down in the defensive third. However, when I muck about with the Defensive Line setting, I feel like they end up closing down too readily and as a result get drawn out of position. That being said, my attacking midfielders do a great job of harrying the opposition on the ball!

In attack, I can see glimpses of the style I want us to play but they are fleeting. It seems like my players are in a rush to get the ball up the pitch and will often forego easy options in order to try long through balls to one of the front three with little success. That being said, the times when we are in the final third, I've seen brilliant one-twos that open up their defense and allow runners through. I've seen great crosses that are played in that tiny space where between the last defender and the goalkeeper that my striker and opposite winger attack. I've seen wonderful through balls that leave the opposition stranded. But for each of those moments, I see three or four plays where I facepalm a little too hard... Players trying through balls from behind the center circle and not as a counter attack. Players taking shots when the better option is to lay it off to someone else. Players tending to be way more ambitious than the situation requires. For example, trying to switch the ball from one side to the other in one risky pass when there are two easy midfield options available. 

To give a bit of context, I'm currently playing with 1. F.C. Köln. They start as bottom-table side but through the signings and the youth I've brought in, we should be, by my best judgement, a top-half team. We're sitting in 10th at the moment and struggling from game to game. For example, I'll beat Wolfsburg 2-0 away from home only to tie Augsburg 1-1 at home and lose to Paderborn 0-1 away from home...

1) About your defense and the closing down problems. I could be wrong but this could be related with your lower D-Line + Closing Down Much More combination. By droping your D-line you are giving more space between line and by increasing the closing down you are telling your players, manly from midfield and upfroant, to get more out of position when defending. This could leave your back four more exposed y giving more space for the opponents forwards to play.

Again, i could be wrong, but i always like to link my D-line with the Closing down, so that if one goes higher the other go higher too.

 

2) Like Noikee said this could be related with your Control mentality, that its quite a attacking one.

You are playing with FC Koln, not a top team in Bundesliga, so this mentality could be a bit risky for them.

On the other hand, by the results you mention, you are having better results against similar/better teams, and worst results agains weaker teams. This could be related with something that i think is laking in your tacking, that is more penetration from the midfield. You play with a AP(a) + BBM(s) combination, and although the AP have an attacking role he still get's back in the pitch because he will look to build the play, and the BBM(s) could get upthere in the box, but he is a players who also starts from the back so he need time that perhaps the control mentality (that rushes things more) might not give. By playing with a control mentality, your tempo is higher so you give less time for your back players to get into play.

So you could try to lower your mentality, lets say to standard, or perhaps give different roles to your midfield combo, for example CM(a) + AP(s) or CM(a) + DLP(s), so that you have one player, the CM(a), reaching the box earlier to help your CF. 

[summatsupeer]

Quote

In defense, the issues I notice are largely related to closing down from what I can tell. My defense is slow to close down in and around the box. I've played against lower-table teams in which their striker has had the time to receive the ball in the box, turn, take a shot, and score while the defender was cutting off his options. It just seems like we wait too long to close down in the defensive third. However, when I muck about with the Defensive Line setting, I feel like they end up closing down too readily and as a result get drawn out of position. That being said, my attacking midfielders do a great job of harrying the opposition on the ball!

The main space in a 433 DM Wide is in front of the FBs.  Your encouraging closing down on a Fluid Team Shape so the whole team gets a very similar closing down setting.  If you want your forward players to close down more but not your deeper players consider using PI instead of TI.

Quote

In attack, I can see glimpses of the style I want us to play but they are fleeting. It seems like my players are in a rush to get the ball up the pitch and will often forego easy options in order to try long through balls to one of the front three with little success. That being said, the times when we are in the final third, I've seen brilliant one-twos that open up their defense and allow runners through. I've seen great crosses that are played in that tiny space where between the last defender and the goalkeeper that my striker and opposite winger attack. I've seen wonderful through balls that leave the opposition stranded. But for each of those moments, I see three or four plays where I facepalm a little too hard... Players trying through balls from behind the center circle and not as a counter attack. Players taking shots when the better option is to lay it off to someone else. Players tending to be way more ambitious than the situation requires. For example, trying to switch the ball from one side to the other in one risky pass when there are two easy midfield options available. 

If you want them to take less risks then I would lower your Mentality from Control to Standard.  This will a more conservative and give them more time to pick the best option. You should see the same movement patterns due to keeping the roles+duties.  if you do this you might want to set D-Line and Closing Down to default before adjusting as needed, maybe through PI as mentioned earlier.

[DaSchnitz]

13 hours ago, noikeee said:

It's too late to write much but you talk about hurried and overly ambitious decisions from your players, I think this is the control mentality, that is pretty attacking and high risk-taking, try toning it down (might need adjusting all the other settings to compensate). 

58 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

If you want them to take less risks then I would lower your Mentality from Control to Standard.  This will a more conservative and give them more time to pick the best option. You should see the same movement patterns due to keeping the roles+duties.

5 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

2) Like Noikee said this could be related with your Control mentality, that its quite a attacking one.

So I've actually tried lowering my mentality to Standard but that has generally been against much stronger teams like Bayern. That being said, I did lower it and that definitely helped in regards to players making better choices! I played one game against a similar strength team and we dominated them away from home. I was a bit concerned with the number of shots off target but that's something I'll have to look into after a couple more games.

5 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

1) About your defense and the closing down problems. I could be wrong but this could be related with your lower D-Line + Closing Down Much More combination. By droping your D-line you are giving more space between line and by increasing the closing down you are telling your players, manly from midfield and upfroant, to get more out of position when defending. This could leave your back four more exposed y giving more space for the opponents forwards to play.

Again, i could be wrong, but i always like to link my D-line with the Closing down, so that if one goes higher the other go higher too.

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

if you do this you might want to set D-Line and Closing Down to default before adjusting as needed, maybe through PI as mentioned earlier.

Since I lowered my mentality to Standard I moved the Defensive Line to the default setting and I was actually seeing a lot of the interceptions that I was hoping to see! That was just one game though, so I'll have to keep an eye on that and the space in front of my Defensive Line since I'm still using Closing Down Much More.

 

I'll play some more games tonight and post an update about what I notice! Thanks for the help!

 

[Craigus89]

Nice and clear first post by the way.

Firstly, take the descriptions given in the game for mentalities with a pinch of salt. The game makes it sound as if you would have to use an aggressive mentality to create possession football, when in my experience almost the opposite is true.

You must also bear in mind that altering the team mentality has an effect on many other things. Look at the graphical differences that happen when you are on the TI screen when you scroll through the mentalities. You talk about your players being in a rush, that could be because the default tempo for control will be higher than for lower mentalities. This can be compensated for by lowering tempo in the TI's if there are elements of the 'control' mentality that you feel work well.

As for your team shape, I feel like if I wanted a solid defense with some Italian inspiration I would be using a structured team shape. Creative freedom can be given to your attacking players via roles and PI's if it stunts that side of things, but I have usually always struggled with defending in a compact manner as opposed to pressing on the higher mentalities, unless I'm playing with a champions league level club.

Also with a fluid team shape the players are given much more creative freedom. This can sometimes cause players who don't have great mentals like 'decisions' to do some pretty stupid things during build up play.

Just some more things to think about.

 

[DaSchnitz]

23 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

Nice and clear first post by the way.

Thanks!

23 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

Firstly, take the descriptions given in the game for mentalities with a pinch of salt. The game makes it sound as if you would have to use an aggressive mentality to create possession football, when in my experience almost the opposite is true.

You must also bear in mind that altering the team mentality has an effect on many other things. Look at the graphical differences that happen when you are on the TI screen when you scroll through the mentalities. You talk about your players being in a rush, that could be because the default tempo for control will be higher than for lower mentalities. This can be compensated for by lowering tempo in the TI's if there are elements of the 'control' mentality that you feel work well.

Yeah, I think that's something I've been guilty of doing for a while now. I think I've been underestimating the 'Standard' mentality for a while now. That being said, I played some more games last night and 'Standard' is treating me well so far. I went 3-1 up against Leverkusen only to concede 3 and lose 4-3. However, I had to field a team with a couple of youngsters due to an unfortunate timing of injuries and suspensions. I did win against Ingolstadt (they are similar strength, maybe slightly weaker) 2-0 with a similarly weakened team.

23 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

As for your team shape, I feel like if I wanted a solid defense with some Italian inspiration I would be using a structured team shape. Creative freedom can be given to your attacking players via roles and PI's if it stunts that side of things, but I have usually always struggled with defending in a compact manner as opposed to pressing on the higher mentalities, unless I'm playing with a champions league level club.

Also with a fluid team shape the players are given much more creative freedom. This can sometimes cause players who don't have great mentals like 'decisions' to do some pretty stupid things during build up play.

Just some more things to think about.

I was thinking of using a structured team shape but I didn't want to restrict my attack in how they go about unlocking the opposition defense. So far it seems to be working well. I think the goals we have conceded are mainly due to the CBs I'm using. They might also be closing down a tad much for my liking so I may have to try to tone that down via PIs. In general though, they seem to be in the right position defensively and are able to make some really good interceptions (especially around the half-way line during transition phases).

Appreciate the feedback!

[Craigus89]

I think one other thing that is often overlooked on the tactics forum in-particular is that our tactical influence over the game is not absolute.

What I mean is that sometimes no matter what you were to do tactically, things will happen out of your control that may turn what could be considered a good result into a terrible one, and we automatically think changes need to be made.

Sometimes opposition strikers have a good day in front of goal.

Sometimes the opposition gets a fluky goal from a cross.

Sometimes a player makes a bad decision, not because of incorrect tactical instructions, but because his mental attributes are lacking.

Sometimes the opposition is simply better than us.

The upshot of this, to me, is don't jump to conclusions after 2-3 games. Often much longer is needed to truly see what impact changes to tactics have.

 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Craigus89 said:

I think one other thing that is often overlooked on the tactics forum in-particular is that our tactical influence over the game is not absolute.

What I mean is that sometimes no matter what you were to do tactically, things will happen out of your control that may turn what could be considered a good result into a terrible one, and we automatically think changes need to be made.

Sometimes opposition strikers have a good day in front of goal.

Sometimes the opposition gets a fluky goal from a cross.

Sometimes a player makes a bad decision, not because of incorrect tactical instructions, but because his mental attributes are lacking.

Sometimes the opposition is simply better than us.

The upshot of this, to me, is don't jump to conclusions after 2-3 games. Often much longer is needed to truly see what impact changes to tactics have.

 

Exactly, a lot of which boils down to a players' Consistency.

In mentioning Consistency, I think it's important to understand what happens there.  It's a hidden attribute scored on a 1-20 scale like the rest, however a perfect score of 20 doesn't mean the player will always put in a consistent performance.  All it means is:

Edit - this is the quote in full (it's important contextually): 

It means he has an 80% chance of playing at his maximum technical/mental ability (physical ability is not affected). Even with max consistency, he will still take a technical/mental ability penalty about every 5th game, but the actual amount of this penalty can vary. Low consistency doesn't necessarily mean a player will have poor form, and high consistency doesn't guarantee that a player will always turn in good performances. A player's personality, overall ability level and suitability for his tactical role will also factor into how well he can maintain good form or overcome a spell of bad form.

I think of consistency as representing a player's ability to mentally get into the zone before a match. It clearly helps a player, but low consistency is a weakness that can be overcome by a strong personality and good work ethic.

 

I'm not going to calculate the odds, but it is at least possible that one or more of your players don't get into the zone and just have a bad day at the office.

[jamiestunna]

A few things about your ti's:

You're asking your defenders to hold a deeper line, while asking the rest of your team to close down very aggressively. I think the problem is that there are large spaces between your midfield and defensive lineline and your defenders will rather look to hold the deep line rather than move closer to the midfield as a unit. The solution would be to bring the line to normal or slightly higher and take the closing down a notch. You could then increase closing down for your forwards' individual instructions. 

 

In terms of your build up, try reducing the passing style to shorter passing, while keeping your mentality on control. This should make your players take less risks in the middle third, but won't stifle their creativity in the final third. I know a lot of people don't like shorter passing because they feel it leads to "passing for the sake of it", but it might just be what you need.