Any reason why my Mesut Ozil is getting red arrows in his attributes? (stats going down)

[Simsejensen77]

Im only in season 2, and there's alot of red arrows on his attributes - why is this?

I can understand if he is +30 and the stats going down, but he is still only 27.

Still playing like a BOSS though

[inacion]

In real life players have moments they train better than others. If he has too many matches, training a PPM or injury, etc. All thing that have impact on how much time he trains he's playing position, can result into attributes drop.

[Guest]

Being lazy and needs a boot up the butt? Have you had a private word told him to get it together training wise?

[Cougar2010]

What type of training are you doing?

If its unbalanced and the player is close to his PA it could be a case of rebalancing going on.

[Cleon]

He's not losing stats as such. He's at full potential and you've just seen his free kick taking rise so this has to come at the expense of other attributes. Under the hood attributes work on a scale of 1-200 and not the 20 we see on the profile screen. So if the player has seen an increase of 0.1 for freekicks, this still has to come from somewhere as he has no free CA left so the other attributes will have to compensate for this and they'll lose like 0.001 etc to make up for the gain elsewhere. Hence the arrows.

[Keyzer Soze]

This CA limitation don't make much sence in some cenarios (if not all).

Why would a player, for example Ozil, lose Accelaration, or Agility, or any other atribute because he got better tacking free kicks?

Some attributes, like the technical ones, should be able to increase not to the expense of others attributes.

The increase should be, of course, related with the player CA, so that a better with better CA could easily increase more these attributes.

For example, Ozil, i don't know his CA, but lets say 180. Pretty high CA. With the proper training a player like him should be able to increase free kick, corners, passing, and others technical attributes to 20, and not having other attributes decrease because of that.

I understand that it's not logical for a top player to develop all technical attributes simply because he is a top player (very high CA). So, could be a limit.

In training, we could decide what technical attributes the player could work more intensively, with players with higher CA being able to work more technical attributes at the same time when compare to players with lower CA.

Example:

- Player with +180 CA: 4 attributes

- Player with +150-180 CA: 3 attributes

- Player with +100-150 CA: 2 attributes

- Player with -100 CA: 1 attribute

And we, the manager, decide wich attribute they would work more in training.

[Cleon]

It makes perfect sense, a player cannot exceed his PA ever, so once he's reached it any future attribute changes have to come from somewhere. Or you could have players just carry on and get 20's for every single stat.

[Keyzer Soze]

It makes perfect sense, a player cannot exceed his PA ever, so once he's reached it any future attribute changes have to come from somewhere. Or you could have players just carry on and get 20's for every single stat.

For me, that one makes sense for mental and physical attributes. Not the technical ones.

But that's just my opinion.

[Cleon]

For me, that one makes sense for mental and physical attributes. Not the technical ones.

But that's just my opinion.

So how would you cap the technicals then?

[Keyzer Soze]

So how would you cap the technicals then?

Cap? Sorry don't understand the question...

[LordFunk]

This CA limitation don't make much sence in some cenarios (if not all).

Same here, still quite new to the game (just started with FM14), but the mathematical concept has some flaws and weaknesses, when it comes to simulate real life.

Atleast when the PA is maxed out and the player is learning an new position, there should be no skill drop at all. It's highly unrealistic in such a scenario, that a player is unlearning his technical, mental or physical skills, because he's playing/training a unknown position.

How to prevent 20s? A player can always learn new positions without loosing skill points, even if the player has already reached his max PA. Or he could unlearn another position to free up the missing CA points. The other one is, when the player reached his max PA, his skills will get froozen and can only decrease from this point.

[Cougar2010]

For me, that one makes sense for mental and physical attributes. Not the technical ones.

But that's just my opinion.

The way to think of it is if he is putting extra training into free kicks to get slight improvements then he doesn't have training time to focus on other skills therefore they degrade slightly.

[Keyzer Soze]

The way to think of it is if he is putting extra training into free kicks to get slight improvements then he doesn't have training time to focus on other skills therefore they degrade slightly.

It's one explanation, but irl we are always seeing news about player X that usually stays in training, after all his team mates leave, to try some freekicks or something else. So i would imagine that specific kind of training dont take time from the general training.

For what i understand, attributes are related with CA. So a player with higher CA can have higher attributes.

And there is a limitation, that is the player PA.

I like the PA idea, so that we can have limits to the player quality.

But regarding the CA, i think there should be a separation between physical and mental attributes and the technical ones.

For example we could have a CA and PA for physical and mental attributes, and a separate CA and PA for some technical attributes. And i don't say all technical attributes, but are some that cleary don't have much relation with the normal evolution of the player, but much more related with specific training.

For example: Corners, free kick taking, penaltys taking, long throws, passing, crossing.

There are examples of players, that late in their careers, and after seeing his physical attributes start to drop, developed into a better player in terms of passing, or taking free kicks, etc.

This is why i think the CA/PA system should be different, and not applied to all attributes in the same way.

Of course that also the training system should changed, so that the specific training in some technical attributes didn't take time (or percentage) from the general training.

Earlier i sugest a separation in two CA/PA, one for techinal and other for mental/physical.

I don't even know if this is the best way. Perhaps it would be more simplier just having some of those technical attributes that i talk about not being influenced by the player CA/PA, but only by the training and by other attributes like determination or profissionalism.

So, for example a player (lets say a regen) that shows up in the game with 10 in free kick taking, could reach 20 in that attribute, after some years with specific training, and that attribute could increase despite the player CA/PA, and despite the evolution as a player.

The same way, a player that has 20 for free kick taking should have that attribute drop if he didn't make any specific training to maintain that attribute.

And, of course, to make things even better, he could have player becaming angry if we manager put them training more hours, and on the other hand, we could have player coming to our office saying "hey mister, i would like to improve my corners skills. Give me some specific training please".

Well, you get the idea.

[Cougar2010]

Whilst I have no problem with your theory splitting CA/PA would make it more difficult/time consuming for the volunteer researchers whilst you also need to consider the extra work created for the coders. On top of that it means triple the information being stored by FM which means processing is slowed down further.

[Keyzer Soze]

Whilst I have no problem with your theory splitting CA/PA would make it more difficult/time consuming for the volunteer researchers whilst you also need to consider the extra work created for the coders. On top of that it means triple the information being stored by FM which means processing is slowed down further.

I agree, with would be insane.

So just remove the influnce of the CA/PA from some technical attributes. This could be simplier.

[ozilthegunner]

It's one explanation, but irl we are always seeing news about player X that usually stays in training, after all his team mates leave, to try some freekicks or something else. So i would imagine that specific kind of training dont take time from the general training.

A player's abilities are not 'static' - once they develop (let's say) good dribbling ability, they have to keep working on that to maintain it.

So, it makes sense that if they start focusing on something else (especially something they are not so good at and therefore have to work quite hard at) that it would take away from other training. This could include physical for sure (i.e., less time running or in the weight room) and although its less clear with mental we can imagine it to some extent (a player spending time working just on free kicks is not involved in contact play as much, thus decreasing his comfort with the physical part of the game and therefore lowering his 'bravery' for instance).

And when a player 'stays late' to put in 'extra work' we shouldn't necessarily see that as 'oh that player just did 110%' and so there should be no decrease in any attributes worked on in the general training. It is not just a matter of how much time, but also how hard one can work. If one is putting in 'extra time', especially regularly, one is likely not able to put in as much effort across that time as if one is not putting in 'extra time'. So, again, even if we were trying to understand a player 'working on free kicks' as 'putting in work beyond general training' that wouldn't imply he doesn't decline in other attributes - he's only human, his body can only take so much, etc.

Especially if we think of a lot of player development, especially technical development, as making certain behaviors 'instinctual' - so just being able to hit the ball in the right way to get the right sort of spin on a free kick - that involves way more than just watching YouTube to see how it is done and doing it a few times. One must 'internalize' the process through constantly doing it. But the activities we can all engage in 'without thinking about it' are limited. So again, some trade off makes sense.

Just some thoughts on how to justify the current system (or something close to it) without appeal to the limits of researchers and coders and game performance