LLM - tactic help

[betondur]

I am managing FC United of Manchester. It started pretty good - I managed to get promotion to Vanarama National League in my first season. Mi first season there, however, was very very hard. Finally I managed to stay up by finishing on 20th place with 2 points more than 21st team.

First reason for this is probably the fact that I created brand new tactic for this season. I changed simple 4-4-2 to 4-1-2-2-1-wide and contracted bunch of new players. In the beginning it seemed to work fine but then the feeling that my players are too sh*t to play possesion football intensified more and more. When I lost 8 games in a row I decided that I want to go back to 4-4-2.

I was conceding lots of goals so I decide that I'd like to play simple football - have deep defensive line, wait for oposition's mistakes and when I get the ball, make quick attacks down the wings and cross the ball into their box.

This is what I came up with so far:

With this tactic my team is OK-ish defensively but we are not scoring many goals... What should I change here? Maybe some roles I have here are wrong (maybe central midfield? idk...)? Please remember that I have very weak players (Vanarama National League level).

I'll appreciate all help

[RTHerringbone]

A 4-4-2 needs solidity in midfield; two guys on Support isn't giving you that - there will be loads of space between your defence and midfield when your attacks break down. You're also very mixed in terms of approach. Lots of tempo and Attack Duties and an Attacking Mentality. You clear the ball out wide but then Work Ball Into Box (which reduces crossing and long shots), which seems to contradict an idea of playing the ball wide and getting crosses in?

You Pass Into Space, but where is the space? The Mentality and Duties mean that the AI will be compressed into its own half when you attack so there is no space for a pass. I just think it's all too rushed and agricultural.

[betondur]

OK, what should I do then? I experimented with roles and instructions during the season. I started with Defensive mentality and deep defensive line but I was still conceding lots of goals. I tried DLP-D with CM-S but it worked well-ish only in defence. I also tried CM-D with BBM but it also didn't work. I added 'work ball into box' after 3 defeats in a row in which I had created only 1 chance per match so I thought that it might help (in some twisted way it did but it may not be the solution). When you ask me "where is the space?" I can only answer that it should be space on oponent's half because I am playing deep defensive line. It doesn't work like that? I also tried playing high defensive line with pressing but it didn't work either - perhaps my players have too little skill for such instructions...

[Jfhgaming]

To me it seems like, you haven't really thought that much about you tactic, the midfield in my eyes is not solid enough in terms of roles, i would at least have one defensive duty, and the TI's you have used seems like, you think you need to have every single one of them active, a thing that works for me in llm is to keep it simple as possible, and i by that i mean as few TI's as possible.

[RTHerringbone]

The thing is that each Mentality has inherent settings, and the default Defensive Line in Attacking is quite high. Your Team Instruction to drop it puts it back to roughly where it would be on a Standard Mentality - it isn't a truly deep line. I think your poor chance creation is probably tied to the aggressive nature of the system. If you roll it down to Control and consider losing an Attack Duty here and there, you should find a more probing playing style which should increase the quality of chances created.

[Jfhgaming]

I also think u need a deep runner, perhaps one of your wingers could cut inside, and go on the inside of your dlf, who drops of the defence?

[Greyfriars Bobby]

I play lower leagues almost exclusively, and I usually play 4-4-2. I try to keep things simple, using roles that don't require my players to have lots of key attributes--which are hard to find at the lower levels.

Do you have a fullback who can dribble and cross, and who has good pace? Try playing him as a FB/Attack. Give the winger on his side a Support duty, so he will provide cover when the fullback bombs forward. On the other side, switch the duties--give the fullback a Support duty and the winger an Attack duty. Now you'll have a player getting forward on each side, with one covering his runs.

I like to have a central midfielder covering the defensive line--a CM/Defend, most of the time. I'm currently using an Advanced Playmaker on Support duty in the central midfield, since I have a player with good attributes for that role. I guess a CM/Support would work, too.

Up front, I have a DLF/Support playing in the same channel as the CM/Defend, and an Advanced Forward in front of the Advanced Playmaker.

I've been playing with a Defensive mentality, which suits my own managerial style. I switch to Standard when I'm chasing the game, and rarely any more adventurous than that, unless I need one goal badly.

I got some very good advice concerning team and player instructions: when you play LLM, try keeping it simple. Then, if you see something that isn't working the way you want it to, you don't have to sort through a lot of factors, figuring out what you want to change. I don't currently have any TI's active at the start of a match, although I'll add one or two during the match, depending on how things are going.

I had a decent amount of success with this setup in FM14 and FM15, and I'm hoping it will work well in FM16, too.

[OrientTillIDie]

Some of what I'm about to say has been covered in one way or another but I'll add my thoughts anyway...

1) If you want to absorb pressure and hit on the break then playing an Attacking mentality is the wrong way to go. You need to play Counter because that's the definition of it - to play deep and wait for them to make a mistake before breaking quickly and directly. This would then enable you to play a deeper defensive line properly.

2) Keep player roles nice and simple. Lower league players won't have the ability to do anything fancy so a good old fashioned Advanced Forward and DLF/S up front would work, or a target man and defensive forward. Basically positions where hard work comes ahead of technical ability. One wide player on each side being set to attack and the other on support to provide balance going forward and back. You'll need pace down the wings to properly utilise your Counter mentality.

3) Those sorts of roles lend themselves nicely to Counter and running after the ball (check your players work rate and teamwork). Play with the more direct TI and possibly clear ball to flanks. That will mean that your long balls will be aimed down the sides of their defence where there will be gaps (because if you're letting them attack you, it's likely their full backs will be high up the pitch). Put one of your forwards (either Advanced Forward or Defensive Forward - whichever you've gone for), on move into channels to encourage them to chase the long balls down. If your wingers are unable to chase because of defensive duties then your forward will do it instead.

4) With a deep defensive line, you'll need to balance your midfield and drop at least one in deep to support the defence. I sometimes push one of my CMs back into DM so the formation isn't symmetrical for extra support. Alternatively, you might want to put one of your full backs (the less creative/attacking one) on a defend duty. Either way, always have a midfielder with defend duty.

5) If you want to push the opposition wide, put your full backs on the Stay Narrower PI so they don't get sucked out wide easily. It's easier to dispossess the opposition when they're out wide and further away from the goal.

If I think of anything else, I'll post it here. Good luck!

[MartinGregory84]

I play lower leagues almost exclusively, and I usually play 4-4-2. I try to keep things simple, using roles that don't require my players to have lots of key attributes--which are hard to find at the lower levels.

Do you have a fullback who can dribble and cross, and who has good pace? Try playing him as a FB/Attack. Give the winger on his side a Support duty, so he will provide cover when the fullback bombs forward. On the other side, switch the duties--give the fullback a Support duty and the winger an Attack duty. Now you'll have a player getting forward on each side, with one covering his runs.

I like to have a central midfielder covering the defensive line--a CM/Defend, most of the time. I'm currently using an Advanced Playmaker on Support duty in the central midfield, since I have a player with good attributes for that role. I guess a CM/Support would work, too.

Up front, I have a DLF/Support playing in the same channel as the CM/Defend, and an Advanced Forward in front of the Advanced Playmaker.

I've been playing with a Defensive mentality, which suits my own managerial style. I switch to Standard when I'm chasing the game, and rarely any more adventurous than that, unless I need one goal badly.

I got some very good advice concerning team and player instructions: when you play LLM, try keeping it simple. Then, if you see something that isn't working the way you want it to, you don't have to sort through a lot of factors, figuring out what you want to change. I don't currently have any TI's active at the start of a match, although I'll add one or two during the match, depending on how things are going.

I had a decent amount of success with this setup in FM14 and FM15, and I'm hoping it will work well in FM16, too.

what a post that is pretty much sums up my thoughts!

[betondur]

First of all I'd like to thank all of you for replies. This has been an interesting read. I don't have good fullbacks which would be capable of bombing forward so unfortunately I need to have 2 fullbacks on support duty. I tried to create something simpler and came up with this:

I put:

* structured shape because I want my players to stick to their positions,

* higher tempo to make quick counters when I get the ball,

* little more narrow width to be more compact while defending

* more direct passing because I want my attacks to be quick

* exploit the flanks because I have only 2 guys in the center of the pitch

* pass into space because use the space behind oponents when making counter

* dribble less because I don't have any good dribblers and I want to play simple football

I put one of my CMs on CM-D to have some cover as you suggested. I also added ' hold position' to my FBs because they had big problems with maintaining defensive shape when I played friendlies (with this instruction they are positioned better). I also added "shoot less often" for my wingers to prevent them from shooting from strange angles.

Theoretically everything is beautiful and team was playing OK-ish in friendlies, but when it came to normal season it is again not working as I'd like it to. I managed to get 4 points in first 4 games. Maybe it's not too bad result but my team is still not consistent defensively and we have problems with creating chances (and with scoring from ones we create, but that's just because our players are not good). Do you see some room for improvement here? Where should I start?

Also, another question - what should I do when I have to chase the result? Go to attacking mentality? Increase the width? Or maybe put wingers on AML/AMR instead of ML/MR? Are there any methods that you are using in such situations?

I also attach 2 PKMs with games which I lost. The goals conceded by my team are mostly ridiculous...

http://www.speedyshare.com/2dhWC/FC-United-Southport.pkm

http://www.speedyshare.com/eEWwY/Macclesfield-FC-United.pkm

I'll appreciate any further help if you are not already bored with my lame questions

[OrientTillIDie]

When chasing, it depends where your strengths lie in your team. If your wide players are good then maybe increase the width and make sure the ball gets played out there. Alternatively if you have some tall, physical players up front then change to Go Route One and keep everyone narrow and tight near the box, getting some extra runners forward from midfield.

Depending on how desperate you are and the time of the match, either Attacking or Overload is the best strategy. If you haven't opted for Route One then I would lean towards Attacking because that encourages quick direct football. With Route One I would go Overload just to push men forward and pin the opposition back. Put the tempo up nice and high and maybe even stick a centre back up front for the 5 or 10 minutes (don't do this in a mid season league game but if a trophy is on the line then go for it!)

[HUNT3R]

I put:

* structured shape because I want my players to stick to their positions,

* higher tempo to make quick counters when I get the ball,

* little more narrow width to be more compact while defending

* more direct passing because I want my attacks to be quick

* exploit the flanks because I have only 2 guys in the center of the pitch

* pass into space because use the space behind oponents when making counter

* dribble less because I don't have any good dribblers and I want to play simple football

I'm just going to pick up on this part. Your counters will be quick and direct even without those instructions. Adding them will affect your general play when counters aren't on. If you want a higher tempo and/or direct passing even if a counter isn't on, that's fine, but just thought I'd point it out.

[betondur]

@HUNT3R: I have dropped higher tempo and more direct passing and this resulted in a bit bigger posession... but still I am very far away from being happy with my tactic. Currently I have 18 points after 17 games and I am sitting on 20th place so I can say that there is no progress since previous season It seems to me that I create similar amount of chances to the amount my oponents create but somehow I usually concede 1:2 or 2:3. I managed tu snatch some draws by going into Overload mentality and Wide width together with Go Route One but generally games are really tough for my team (and really painful to watch)... At this point I am starting to lose faith in 4-4-2 being viable tactic in lower leagues...

[HTC]

I will play LL football when i finish two solid 10 year saves with my favorite Panathinaikos as i did last year and you can try what i did and worked, do it like Mourinho in 2004 Chelsea and drop one striker in DM and the MRLs to AML/R positions to have an andvantage in the middle in most of your matches, as i think most of your opponents play 4-4-2.

----------DLFs

Wa-----------------Wa

-----BWMs--APa

------------A

FBs---DC---DC---FBs

...or something like that.

I am struggling heavily too in generall. Cant find the lethal touch style i like.

[Dannehbai]

I just won League One with Colchester (predicted 20th) with a counter style and went about 30 odd games unbeaten in the middle of the season. I'm not sure if it was more luck than judgement judging by the way I've had trouble on all my other saves with much better teams.

I played highly structured Counter 4-1-4-1 due to the fact I found the other styles to not give me enough depth in my midfield (I found that highly structured helped my banks of 4 not to sit on top of each other and help get my attack duty players to support my lone striker. Also my players were generally only good at one thing and I wanted them to stick rigidly to the shape and instructions I gave them)

GK (D) - Distribute to flanks due to the fact my forward wasn't the best in the air and on replays it seemed like they were always the ones with most space

LFB (S)

CD (D)

CD (D)

RFB (A)

DM (D) - shoot less often, tackle harder, fewer risky passes - I didn't want him to do anything fancy with the ball just to be willing to break down attacks and be aggressive, he did receive A LOT of yellows though unsurprisingly, but it was working so didn't mess with it.

AP(S) - I found DLP (S) ended up being too close to my dm (D), also my player here had come deep to get the ball in position which helped him be a sort of half dlp half AP.

CM (A) - more risky passes - my CM (A) was also a really good playmaker but I wanted the verticality of cm (A)

LW (A)

RW (S)

DLF (S) - Move into channels - I had a striker who was fast and had good off the ball movement and with 2 wingers wanted him to get into those channels to help him receive the ball and be closer to the wingers for better link up.

I only had one team instruction which was run at defence because my dribbling stats were high with my striker, cm (A) ap (s) and wingers. Occasionally I put on pass into space if I was away from home, but I already had from PI/roles the players I wanted to make most of the riskier passes with and this was generally only used if they were pushing really high up.

One thing to note is I had the 3rd highest average possession in the league which I did not really envisage making the tactic, I guess as I got to the top of the league I started to become more of a favourite and teams were less willing to give me opportunities to counter, however maybe it helped get teams to attempt press more to get the ball back in the games thus giving me more room. As I say it was working so I just accepted it!

[DBSC]

I've found a 4-4-1-1 tactic works pretty well for me across both LLM and top divisions (FM15. played with Annan through the Scottish divisions).

DL - FB-s

DC - D

DC - D

DR - WB-a with stay wide option

ML - W-a

MC - CM-d

MC - BBM/CM-s with go further forward role

ML - WM-s Get further forward, Stay narrower, Cut inside

AMC - AMC/AP-a with free role

ST - DLF-a

The roles above are what i'm using while the team is in the Champs league, with retain possession and more closing down. But whilst in lower league, the only player roles i had were the width ones and get forward for the midfielders. Also less fluidity in the lower leagues, which i cranked up as the team got better. I've found more rigid tactics seem to play better in LLM.