AM/CF combo in a 4-2-3-1

[Dagenham_Dave]

Need some basic tactical advice from you chaps.

In my Hibs save, I play a fairly basic 4-2-3-1 formation, and I'm struggling for goals from my front man. At the moment, I have a poacher up top with a Treq just in behind with standard wingers, but I have the chance to sign a good Target Man on deadline day and was wondering if combining that with perhaps a Shadow Striker would be effective in such a formation.

This is how I normally line up...

This formation and the majority of playing personnel there (got one or two injured just now) got us to 3rd in the SPL last season and into Europe. Six games into this new season, and I'm sitting in 8th place, and struggling to put any sort of run together. The main problem is that nearly all my goals come from the midfield, and I'd just like a bit of help in getting my front man to contribute. All the strikers I have have good attributes for the roles. My main striker, not in the pic is a Danish lad who's just picked up an injury, but despite him being a natural poacher, he's really struggling.

These are currently my team instructions

- Shorter passing

- Lower Tempo

- Work ball into Box

- Drop Deeper

- Hassle Opponents

I seem to play ok using these instructions, pretty much how I want the team to play, but it's getting goals from strikers that's killing me.

Thoughts?

[Cleon]

The thing about poachers is they are very static and rely on them being fed the ball so if this doesn't happen then they live off scraps and hardly score goals. A poacher isn't really viable in terms of consistency to lead the line. His static play and lack of movement makes it hard for him to get into good positions or find any space.

A TM and SS can work yes.

If you want goals from your front man then you have to ask yourself who is going to supply him with the ball and who is going to support him?

It's interesting to see you use wingers yet Danny Handling is poor in the air so any crosses would be wasted on him.

[thizaum]

Wow... I was going to write the exact same topic today!!! What a coincidence!

I play the 4-2DM-3-1, so I cannot have my AM wandering too far from the DMs. The most success I've had was with AM-s and AF-a. On the left, an IF-s (with CWB-a) and on the right, W-a with FB-s behind him.

I like the idea of playing with a supporting striker... worked well with the 4-3-3, but here he seems to get way too close to the AM and not finish enough chances.

I'm thinking about running some tests with him as a Tq, hoping he would roam and free space for the rest, and also finish to the net. If you have the right player, a TM-s would be interesting too. Other options are P, CF-s or a.

On the AM, have you tried AM (s or a) and AP (s or a)?

If you're keeping the AM as a Tq, I think CF-s and TM-s are nice options.

Also, what do you think about setting one of the wingers to cut inside (AP or IF)?

[Dagenham_Dave]

The thing about poachers is they are very static and rely on them being fed the ball so if this doesn't happen then they live off scraps and hardly score goals. A poacher isn't really viable in terms of consistency to lead the line. His static play and lack of movement makes it hard for him to get into good positions or find any space.

A TM and SS can work yes.

If you want goals from your front man then you have to ask yourself who is going to supply him with the ball and who is going to support him?

It's interesting to see you use wingers yet Danny Handling is poor in the air so any crosses would be wasted on him.

In fairness, Handling is about my 3rd choice for up front, only there owing to injuries. My main striker, Soren Frederiksen is better in the air, but not as good as a natural TM. Transfer deadline is passed now, and I didn't manage to get the striker I was after anyway.

Frederiksen's best role is an Advanced Forward, if I employ him there, and keep the Treq behind, would this work better?

In terms of the wide players, I'm always wary of using them as IFs or APs for some reason. Not sure if it's because they would get in the way of a Treq. I've always liked playing with standard wingers, and Torsteinbo in particular is great in that role. As is Liam Craig on the other side, but he's injured right now too.

[thizaum]

In fairness, Handling is about my 3rd choice for up front, only there owing to injuries. My main striker, Soren Frederiksen is better in the air, but not as good as a natural TM. Transfer deadline is passed now, and I didn't manage to get the striker I was after anyway.

Frederiksen's best role is an Advanced Forward, if I employ him there, and keep the Treq behind, would this work better?

In terms of the wide players, I'm always wary of using them as IFs or APs for some reason. Not sure if it's because they would get in the way of a Treq. I've always liked playing with standard wingers, and Torsteinbo in particular is great in that role. As is Liam Craig on the other side, but he's injured right now too.

If you're keeping him as AF, I'd suggest AM-s or AP-s for your AM.... I think you just have to create more for the striker.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I'll give that a go, cheers.

[Cleon]

In fairness, Handling is about my 3rd choice for up front, only there owing to injuries. My main striker, Soren Frederiksen is better in the air, but not as good as a natural TM. Transfer deadline is passed now, and I didn't manage to get the striker I was after anyway.

Frederiksen's best role is an Advanced Forward, if I employ him there, and keep the Treq behind, would this work better?

In terms of the wide players, I'm always wary of using them as IFs or APs for some reason. Not sure if it's because they would get in the way of a Treq. I've always liked playing with standard wingers, and Torsteinbo in particular is great in that role. As is Liam Craig on the other side, but he's injured right now too.

The Treq and wide player wouldn't get in each others way

You shouldn't think about what a players best role is, you should think about what is the best role for how you are playing. Like now you have 2 wingers who are good and its their best role yet its wasted because you use a static front man who doesn't move about and won't get on the end of the crosses or the through balls from the Treq. You need to try and picture how it plays as a unit rather than focusing on the individual. If you want to use wingers that's fine but you need to make sure you use a striker who can get on the end of crosses, lose his marker, roam about etc.

[NakS]

You have to balance dribbling, direct and incisive players with creative, playmaker types and goal scoring threat to make a attacking diamond to work in front of a line of 4 composed of 2 fullbacks and midfielders (DM or CM).

I always have the same logic when it comes to creating an attacking set-up. I should attack down 5 channels with lateral movements and on 4 depths with vertical movement and with different type of threat. I have draw the 5 vertical channels numbered 1 to 5 from left to right (blue icon) and the 4 depths (red icon) numbered 1 to 4 from top to bottom. D0 behind the opponent defense. Channel 1 is C1 and Depth 4 is D4 for example. Movement from depth 4 to depth 2 is noted D42, movement from depth 1 to depth 2 is noted D12. Same for movement into channels.

Here is a classical 4231 set-up, let's see how it is built following these guidelines.

WBL : WB-Attack. Starting deep but surging forward D42 or even D41. He is providing dribbling and crossing from the byline. He is working only in C1

WBR : FB-S or WB-S. Starting deep and offering a passing outlet for midfielder, he is mostly staying at midfield level so D43 or sometimes D43. He is providing passes along the C5 and cross from deep from middle of the pitch.

CML : CM-Def. Staying in front of the defense, no forward movement and stay in D4 (DM) or D3 (CM). He is simply recycling possession and is guarding C2 and C1 behind WB-A backs

CMR : DLP-S. Covering the defense as well, could slightly move forward in D3. He is spreading pass and playmaking. Can switch ball to the other flank if needed. He is controlling the game from central channels C3-C4.

AML : IF-S. Starting from wide in C1 and going in C2 to create C12 or even C13 movements if space is vacated by the striker. He is providing incisive (dribbling and running with the ball) as well as long range goal threat (long shot). He is operating at D2 but can move further forward in D1 if possession is established. His movement towards C2 and D2 depth is opening the C1 channel for WB-A and D2 or even D1.

AMR : W-A. Starting and staying wide in C5, he is spreading the play by widening the playing attacking area with the WB-A. Starting from D2 but frequently going in D1 to make off the ball movement D21 or even behind the FB in D10. He is providing direct running as well byline cross or far post goal threat.

AMC : AP-A. Starting in D2 but could move a bit forward in D1 to create D21 movement. He is linking up play with D3 DLP-S and he provides creative passing as well as direct running and long range goal threat. He is operating centrally in C3 but could move either C32 or 34 to combine with AML/AMR.

ST : AF-A. Looking for space behind the defense to make D10 movements, pushing back central defense to create space for the AP-A in D2 and D1. He mowing into channels C32 or C34 to combine with wide players and disrupt opponent defensive structure. He is providing close range goal threat as well as basic link up play and lateral movement.

This is a very simple set-up based on use of depths, channels and movements. So, if you are going to ask "what is the best AMC-ST partnership" it must be in relationship with the rest of you set-up. Let's change some role to illustrate my point.

I don't have WB-A nor even WB-S to provide width and movement in C1 channel. I have a very defensive players here and I can not ask him to dribble towards the byline to cross. What kind of problem I am creating? Well, if I keep a IF-S I will lack width in C1 and play will be congested on the left. One solution is to use a W-S so that he is going to provide width, direct dribbling, running and crossing. He will move D21 or sometimes D20. As a result, my AP-A will have to work more in C32 because the IF-S is not helping him out in the center. Two options here, either go for a more mobile AMC like a Trequartista or going "Roaming" with the AP-A. Maybe my DLP-S will have more space to move into, maybe going D32. Maybe I can go AP-S to move him a bit higher or DLP-S with roaming. I must monitoring this in game.

What if I have a goalscoring AMC like a Shadow striker or AM-A? He is going up and down, working hard? Obviously he will do D21 and D20 on occasion, the AF-A is probably not the better role here because I am not offering anything creative apart from the DLP-S. I'd switch to CF-A to have a more all round play with both creating and scoring. My IF-S has of space to work into in C3-D2/D1 in behind the SS. Maybe I could switch him to AP-A with roaming so that he is filling that space and is creative? Maybe the AF-A would still be a good option up top then. Or I may choose a W-S + FB-S in C1 + AF-A and rely more on my DLP-S to create play, or making him an AP-S to moving him behind the SS-A. Or, I can even go with a W-A or IF-A in C1 and having a creative striker up top like a CF-S or DLF-S or F9-S with aim to drop deep and move top open up space.

You have a lot of combinations, of course it depends on players available but always keep in mind that is holistic and you have to balance how you are attacking. If you change something, it will have some effect elsewhere.

[Mark Zheng]

Mate, have a go with AM(a) and DLF(a) and switch to "Control" mentality with "Fluid", this helped me when my Southampton goals were drying up. Not sure if it will work on Hibs but give it a go when the chips are down yeah? Love your wing combinations though with the s-a/a-s combo!

[Dagenham_Dave]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, I'll work on it.

[thizaum]

You have to balance dribbling, direct and incisive players with creative, playmaker types and goal scoring threat to make a attacking diamond to work in front of a line of 4 composed of 2 fullbacks and midfielders (DM or CM).

I always have the same logic when it comes to creating an attacking set-up. I should attack down 5 channels with lateral movements and on 4 depths with vertical movement and with different type of threat. I have draw the 5 vertical channels numbered 1 to 5 from left to right (blue icon) and the 4 depths (red icon) numbered 1 to 4 from top to bottom. D0 behind the opponent defense. Channel 1 is C1 and Depth 4 is D4 for example. Movement from depth 4 to depth 2 is noted D42, movement from depth 1 to depth 2 is noted D12. Same for movement into channels.

Here is a classical 4231 set-up, let's see how it is built following these guidelines.

This is a very simple set-up based on use of depths, channels and movements. So, if you are going to ask "what is the best AMC-ST partnership" it must be in relationship with the rest of you set-up. Let's change some role to illustrate my point.

I don't have WB-A nor even WB-S to provide width and movement in C1 channel. I have a very defensive players here and I can not ask him to dribble towards the byline to cross. What kind of problem I am creating? Well, if I keep a IF-S I will lack width in C1 and play will be congested on the left. One solution is to use a W-S so that he is going to provide width, direct dribbling, running and crossing. He will move D21 or sometimes D20. As a result, my AP-A will have to work more in C32 because the IF-S is not helping him out in the center. Two options here, either go for a more mobile AMC like a Trequartista or going "Roaming" with the AP-A. Maybe my DLP-S will have more space to move into, maybe going D32. Maybe I can go AP-S to move him a bit higher or DLP-S with roaming. I must monitoring this in game.

What if I have a goalscoring AMC like a Shadow striker or AM-A? He is going up and down, working hard? Obviously he will do D21 and D20 on occasion, the AF-A is probably not the better role here because I am not offering anything creative apart from the DLP-S. I'd switch to CF-A to have a more all round play with both creating and scoring. My IF-S has of space to work into in C3-D2/D1 in behind the SS. Maybe I could switch him to AP-A with roaming so that he is filling that space and is creative? Maybe the AF-A would still be a good option up top then. Or I may choose a W-S + FB-S in C1 + AF-A and rely more on my DLP-S to create play, or making him an AP-S to moving him behind the SS-A. Or, I can even go with a W-A or IF-A in C1 and having a creative striker up top like a CF-S or DLF-S or F9-S with aim to drop deep and move top open up space.

You have a lot of combinations, of course it depends on players available but always keep in mind that is holistic and you have to balance how you are attacking. If you change something, it will have some effect elsewhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But if I use DM instead of CM, I should have an AP-s instead of the AP-a, right? There would not be the D21 movement, but the D23 is necessary to help bringing the ball forward.

My formation looks a lot like yours. This is the only difference.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Well, I took all that was said on board, and lined up like this for my next game...

My game was away to St Johnstone, not the toughest opponents, but they normally cause me a bit of grief.

Wow. And not just the result, but we were fantastic throughout. And you'll notice my main striker scored two goals (and got an 8.8 rating, one of five players to score over 8). Now, I'm not getting carried away, as it's just one result but I could see the difference almost immediately. I guess a better understanding of the roles and how they fit on the pitch is the key here.

Match stats

The vast majority of St Johnstone's shots were in the final 15 minutes as they piled forward to get back into it. Very happy with the shots on target and chances created, while still having most of the posession away from home with a counter tactic.

Small acorns, etc..

Thanks again for this.

[thizaum]

Well, I took all that was said on board, and lined up like this for my next game...

My game was away to St Johnstone, not the toughest opponents, but they normally cause me a bit of grief.

Wow. And not just the result, but we were fantastic throughout. And you'll notice my main striker scored two goals (and got an 8.8 rating, one of five players to score over 8). Now, I'm not getting carried away, as it's just one result but I could see the difference almost immediately. I guess a better understanding of the roles and how they fit on the pitch is the key here.

Match stats

The vast majority of St Johnstone's shots were in the final 15 minutes as they piled forward to get back into it. Very happy with the shots on target and chances created, while still having most of the posession away from home with a counter tactic.

Small acorns, etc..

Thanks again for this.

Nicely done!

[Dagenham_Dave]

Five players in the team of the week as well. Sweet.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just destroyed Hearts 5-1 in the next home league game, after battering QOS with my fringe side in the cup. Seems like I had the players all along, just never knew how to fully deploy them.

[tyro]

You have to balance dribbling, direct and incisive players with creative, playmaker types and goal scoring threat to make a attacking diamond to work in front of a line of 4 composed of 2 fullbacks and midfielders (DM or CM).

I always have the same logic when it comes to creating an attacking set-up. I should attack down 5 channels with lateral movements and on 4 depths with vertical movement and with different type of threat. I have draw the 5 vertical channels numbered 1 to 5 from left to right (blue icon) and the 4 depths (red icon) numbered 1 to 4 from top to bottom. D0 behind the opponent defense. Channel 1 is C1 and Depth 4 is D4 for example. Movement from depth 4 to depth 2 is noted D42, movement from depth 1 to depth 2 is noted D12. Same for movement into channels.

Here is a classical 4231 set-up, let's see how it is built following these guidelines.

This is a very simple set-up based on use of depths, channels and movements. So, if you are going to ask "what is the best AMC-ST partnership" it must be in relationship with the rest of you set-up. Let's change some role to illustrate my point.

I don't have WB-A nor even WB-S to provide width and movement in C1 channel. I have a very defensive players here and I can not ask him to dribble towards the byline to cross. What kind of problem I am creating? Well, if I keep a IF-S I will lack width in C1 and play will be congested on the left. One solution is to use a W-S so that he is going to provide width, direct dribbling, running and crossing. He will move D21 or sometimes D20. As a result, my AP-A will have to work more in C32 because the IF-S is not helping him out in the center. Two options here, either go for a more mobile AMC like a Trequartista or going "Roaming" with the AP-A. Maybe my DLP-S will have more space to move into, maybe going D32. Maybe I can go AP-S to move him a bit higher or DLP-S with roaming. I must monitoring this in game.

What if I have a goalscoring AMC like a Shadow striker or AM-A? He is going up and down, working hard? Obviously he will do D21 and D20 on occasion, the AF-A is probably not the better role here because I am not offering anything creative apart from the DLP-S. I'd switch to CF-A to have a more all round play with both creating and scoring. My IF-S has of space to work into in C3-D2/D1 in behind the SS. Maybe I could switch him to AP-A with roaming so that he is filling that space and is creative? Maybe the AF-A would still be a good option up top then. Or I may choose a W-S + FB-S in C1 + AF-A and rely more on my DLP-S to create play, or making him an AP-S to moving him behind the SS-A. Or, I can even go with a W-A or IF-A in C1 and having a creative striker up top like a CF-S or DLF-S or F9-S with aim to drop deep and move top open up space.

You have a lot of combinations, of course it depends on players available but always keep in mind that is holistic and you have to balance how you are attacking. If you change something, it will have some effect elsewhere.

This definitely helped me visualize movements. I have been around since FM2011, I think, but this is the first year I am starting to realize the movement aspect of the game. I always tried to set up (A), (S), and (D) but never thought about how players move off the ball and how the formation would look like at that point. With all the good threads here this year I am starting to "see" the movement much more when setting up a tactic.

I have also noticed, for myself, that using the touchline or more zoomed out 3D view gives a nice overview of how the players line up and move. I played with the close camera until very recently, which is great fun as it is so zoomed in but gives little tactical visibility.

[tennisball]

...

Nice analysis NakS, really enjoyed that.