It's time for a leap of faith

[edgar555]

A quick search reveals that it is from EPL Talk:

Link to the article

Links broken.

Crouch: the point wasn't that you or I could go searching the web for it, just wanted the OP to cite his source. Any of us can just write drivel and then say 'I found it on the internet'.

[djwilko6]

Please, crouchy, this time you have to stay calm. What you are doing is very rude.

To be fair tak, the way you have spoken to, and continue to speak to, wwfan is much, much ruder.

[edgar555]

Please, crouchy, this time you have to stay calm. What you are doing is very rude.

Do you really think I am lying?

Crouch is right.

And as my post above this states, show me where I called you a liar?? Show me!

[crouchaldinho]

Interesting that the opening poster claims to have read Inverting the Pyramid when it suits him:

I'll ask you again, have you ever read Inverting the Pyramid or any other tactical books? I would thoroughly recommend it given your lack of knowledge regarding the tactical side of the game.

I have read the book, and indeed my knowledge regarding the tactical side of the game is indeed very good.

Later on though, during a conversation with WWFan, it suddenly emerges that he hasn't actually read it at all:

I think you are worried that if we were to manage the same football team in real life I would do better, although I haven't read the Pyramid.

It seems to be easy to offer criticism on a subject you know nothing about. The opening poster appears to be particularly adept at this.

[robbert_o154]

Thanks tingting and Almondo for trying to put the conversation back on track. The usual argument coming from experts is "but you haven't read the pyramid". I've noticed this behaviour of intentionaly steering away from the subject but I think we will keep it in the right course (unless the teachers get really wild and the thread is closed).

Could you please refrain from continually throwing up comments like these? If anyone's been systematically derailing the debate, it's you. When faced with questions you are unable to answer, you try to steer the conversation back to the ephemeral and intangible. Failing that, you go off-topic or ignore the questions altogether (even though the conversation has already moved on from that topic, I'd still be interested in hearing your answer to the question I put to you in post #149). For all your annoyance over the Greece/Euro2004 subject, let's not forget it was you who ran with that one in the first place. All that wwfan and crouchaldinho have been trying to do is to put you back on-topic and have you answer the fundamental questions that arise from your OP. It's been hard work for them, but their work seems to start to bear fruit at long lest.

Which makes your "getting back on subject" remark all the more odd. We were finally getting there, not away from it. This is a debate after all, not a Speaker's Corner where you can expect to indulge in long-winded monologues unchallenged. You may not like the questions being put to you, but they are at the core of the debate.

[edgar555]

Could you please refrain from continually throwing up comments like these? If anyone's been systematically derailing the debate, it's you. When faced with questions you are unable to answer, you try to steer the conversation back to the ephemeral and intangible. Failing that, you go off-topic or ignore the questions altogether (even though the conversation has already moved on from that topic, I'd still be interested in hearing your answer to the question I put to you in post #149). For all your annoyance over the Greece/Euro2004 subject, let's not forget it was you who ran with that one in the first place. All that wwfan and crouchaldinho have been trying to do is to put you back on-topic and have you answer the fundamental questions that arise from your OP. It's been hard work for them, but their work seems to start to bear fruit at long lest.

Which makes your "getting back on subject" remark all the more odd. We were finally getting there, not away from it. This is a debate after all, not a Speaker's Corner where you can expect to indulge in long-winded monologues unchallenged. You may not like the questions being put to you, but they are at the core of the debate.

What this man said!

[crouchaldinho]

Links broken.

Crouch: the point wasn't that you or I could go searching the web for it, just wanted the OP to cite his source. Any of us can just write drivel and then say 'I found it on the internet'.

If you read the article, it doesn't actually support anything that the opening poster is arguing.

The article is about a perceived 'over-emphasis on the importance of the manager as the driving force of the game'.

It mainly uses the tactical argument to make the point but it also calls into question the role of man management and motivation, as in the following quotation:

But the best contemporary example has to be Chelsea, whingeing about how Scolari didn’t “make” them train, didn’t “motivate” them by being tough on them, and was “too friendly.” The notion of individual responsibility has been eroded by the expectation that managers should have total control over their players.

It is questioning the influence of the manager in every aspect and not just in terms of his tactical input. It actually backfires on the opening poster, who has only used the quotation from this article as a wind-up, simply because it refers to 'fifteen year-old' boys who have read Inverting the Pyramid and 'won a few games on Football Manager'. It's not supportive of anyone's argument, it's just meant as a wind-up.

[crouchaldinho]

What this man said!

I agree. Absolutely spot on.

[crouchaldinho]

What I would suggest to the opening poster is that he goes away, actually plays some Football Manager and studies the already existing motivational and man management content in the game. Earlier he expressed interest in the idea that the players have different personalities and hidden mental stats in Football Manager. He seems similarly unaware of the impact that different events can have on a player's personality. He also seems to be ignorant of the fact that a player can be influenced by a number of different factors both on and off the pitch. This would all be worth investigating by playing Football Manager and trying out what is already there.

Once he has played Football Manager to the extent that he is aware of these already existing factors, then he may be better placed to brainstorm some new ideas as per his opening post. He may also like to go away and do some reading and reflecting on tactical theory and motivational theory. For reading, I would suggest books by Jonathan Wilson, Massimo Lucchesi, David Goldblatt and Richard Saunders etc. I can provide specific titles if necessary. Furthermore, going away and reading about man management and motivational theory within a football setting would be a great idea. My suggestion would be Sven Goran-Eriksson's book, co-written by an expert in sports psychology. Other people may be able to suggest a better book.

By having a better knowledge of Football Manager, and by increasing his tactical knowledge and also reading about psychological theory in a specifically football environment (and the kinds of factors that have an effect on players), the opening poster might be better able to offer some useful constructive criticism and also some ideas for the future of the game. I think he will be surprised by just how much of it is covered in Football Manager 2010. Of course, there is always room for improvement and I think the game can always benefit from new ideas.

[tingting]

He has also shown a lack of knowledge about football generally, which has resulted in an attempt to dismiss the importance of tactical theory in football.

Not trying to defend everything he said but as far as i have read this thread, he has not dismissed tactics. What he said was the job of a football manager is not just designing tactics but almost all of the focus in the game is on tactics.

That is a point which i have to agree upon. Once you create a decent tactic (half decent for a good team) all you have to do is press continue, play, continue, play. This is more apparent in big teams link Manchester Uniteds, Real Madrids, Barcelonas etc. Man management and personalities are represented in the game but do they really have a major effect on the player or the manager or the team?

Where is the non tactical challenge for such teams. I can drop Rooneys, Ronaldos, Messis for a stretch of 5-6 games and there is no pressure on me by the player or by the media or by the fans. The players' morale remains superb just if they play a reserves match and put up a good performance. However if they are performing decently and i release a statement saying i am pleased with his performance, a player's morale suddenly drops down....and then a couple of wins later it gets back to superb

The game is meant to be about a football manager. What exactly has been done from the manager's perspective for the last two or three versions? Manager contracts, board interactions, player contracts, player interaction, player management, press conferences, team talks, training, tactics all are important aspects for a manager...almost nothing has changed in the past two or three versions (people might say tactics creator but it is just a cosmetic feature to help understand the game's tactics through everyday terms) As a manager i dont even have a personal achievement page which lists out what i have won in my career (you will have to wade through a lot of useless info before getting to the main part)

Also the emphasis on reputation continues (dont exactly know about players but i do know about managers) Started my last save as Leeds, was fourth in the league by February (a poor performance compared to the team's potential) yet i get offers from Ghana and Ivory Coast soon after the ANC tournament just because my reputation is national??? Was struggling with the team so i resigned...but just a month later i get an offer from a team that is two divisions above (Birmingham City) with a club that needs to be at its best in order to avoid relegation???

Edit: Of course what i am saying is completely off the topic regarding the current debate going on in Page 3

[tak]

I would suggest that everyone relaxes at this point. I understand you felt offended by the quotation, but as I said it supports part of my argument, which is that there is a lot of exaggeration about the role of tactics in modern football, coming from arm chair managers. By the way, in my writting, for a couple of days now, the word "Pyramid" represents this exaggeration and pseudo-management.

[edgar555]

If you read the article, it doesn't actually support anything that the opening poster is arguing.

The article is about a perceived 'over-emphasis on the importance of the manager as the driving force of the game'.

It mainly uses the tactical argument to make the point but it also calls into question the role of man management and motivation, as in the following quotation:

It is questioning the influence of the manager in every aspect and not just in terms of his tactical input. It actually backfires on the opening poster, who has only used the quotation from this article as a wind-up, simply because it refers to 'fifteen year-old' boys who have read Inverting the Pyramid and 'won a few games on Football Manager'. It's not supportive of anyone's argument, it's just meant as a wind-up.

I thought as much, hence him avoiding providing me with a link or source and instead asking me why I called him a liar.

To be honest yourself and wwfan have tried very hard to put points forward but I don't see why you should bother anymore. I'm fairly certain he's sat in front of his laptop with his hands over his eyes going 'ner,ner,ner,ner, lalalalalalalala!'

[tak]

What I would suggest to the opening poster is that he goes away, actually plays some Football Manager and studies the already existing motivational and man management content in the game. Earlier he expressed interest in the idea that the players have different personalities and hidden mental stats in Football Manager. He seems similarly unaware of the impact that different events can have on a player's personality. He also seems to be ignorant of the fact that a player can be influenced by a number of different factors both on and off the pitch. This would all be worth investigating by playing Football Manager and trying out what is already there.

Once he has played Football Manager to the extent that he is aware of these already existing factors, then he may be better placed to brainstorm some new ideas as per his opening post. He may also like to go away and do some reading and reflecting on tactical theory and motivational theory. For reading, I would suggest books by Jonathan Wilson, Massimo Lucchesi, David Goldblatt and Richard Saunders etc. I can provide specific titles if necessary. Furthermore, going away and reading about man management and motivational theory within a football setting would be a great idea. My suggestion would be Sven Goran-Eriksson's book, co-written by an expert in sports psychology. Other people may be able to suggest a better book.

By having a better knowledge of Football Manager, and by increasing his tactical knowledge and also reading about psychological theory in a specifically football environment (and the kinds of factors that have an effect on players), the opening poster might be better able to offer some useful constructive criticism and also some ideas for the future of the game. I think he will be surprised by just how much of it is covered in Football Manager 2010. Of course, there is always room for improvement and I think the game can always benefit from new ideas.

Thank you crouch. Can you please put me back on your ignore list and do not open this thread again? That way, you will be happy and we will make some progress. Edgar, Robert, do you mind doing the same.

Once more, thank you very much.

[crouchaldinho]

Not trying to defend everything he said but as far as i have read this thread, he has not dismissed tactics. What he said was the job of a football manager is not just designing tactics but almost all of the focus in the game is on tactics.

I would disagree with that though. That's my point. And my other point would be that he has reached this conclusion without a basic knowledge of what is actually in the game (almost as if he hasn't really played it!)

Once you create a decent tactic (half decent for a good team) all you have to do is press continue, play, continue, play. This is more apparent in big teams link Manchester Uniteds, Real Madrids, Barcelonas etc.

I couldn't comment on that really as I don't play with big teams. But then again, I don't seem to have found it quite as easy as you have. I find there is a challenge in keeping my players motivated through press conferences, team talks and through other interaction. I work on instilling a culture in my side. A culture of highly ambitious, determined and professional players. The way I treat everything in the game is with a fair but firm approach. Getting the balance right between encouraging my players and being hard on them can actually be quite challenging. This existing complexity is entirely dismissed by the opening poster.

Man management and personalities are represented in the game but do they really have a major effect on the player or the manager or the team?

Yes, I find that they do. That's the short answer.

The game is meant to be about a football manager. What exactly has been done from the manager's perspective for the last two or three versions? Manager contracts, board interactions, player contracts, player interaction, player management, press conferences, team talks, training, tactics

Funnily enough, almost everything you mention there has been changed and added to in the last few versions, with the obvious exception of training.

[crouchaldinho]

I'm fairly certain he's sat in front of his laptop with his hands over his eyes going 'ner,ner,ner,ner, lalalalalalalala!'

A most striking image indeed.

[RBKalle]

Can we just stop with this inane bickering about who has read or not read what and just move on, possibly to come out with something vaguely constructive?!

I've said it already, but apparently keeping on fighting for a "win" in a sterile argument was more interesting, so I'll say it again.

MAN MANAGEMENT is somewhat present in FM 10, but it's too much of an afterthough (and/or as a chore) to be actually a part of the focal point of the gaming experience.

Tingting put it well: once you have found a decent tactic and the results are kinda okay, you don't need to worry about much more than clicking Play and Continue.

Occasionally you'll have to be careful not to put your foot in your mouth in press conferences not to cause a small and insignificant buzz in the dressing room, but unless you do it on purpose week in and week out, you won't be able to kill the mood.

Players' personalities are a great addition, on paper, but their impact on the game is minimal, at least to my knowledge.

I've had a couple of players Unhappy because they wanted to move to a bigger club, for ONE YEAR or so... Yet their morale is okay/good and they still perform around 7.00 level.

Even those who asked to be transfer-listed haven't lost a step on the pitch.

Now, unless I'm lucky and they'll are model professionals, that's not that real, isn't it?

And there's plenty of situations where FM personality fails to reproduce a life-like scenario.

Psychological tratis would be so much better if the human manager actually had the tools to interact with his players on a regular basis about many aspects of the game

Instead we have:

* Team Talks (cryptic and too generic)

* Form Praise/Criticism (public... often not a wise choice)

* PPM (ok but we need more freedom)

* Squad/Transfer status (with NO explaination possible)

* One-size-fits-all Training.

IMO it's not even remotely enough, if compared with all the tactical fine-tuning still lying under the useful and user-friendly Tactical Wizard.

Tactical interaction is not an option, it's a MUST.

Players must have preferred roles and duties, instead of soldiering on playing (even playing well) on secondary roles, on the wrong side of the pitch and in a way that doesn't suit them...

Model professionals can adapt to that, but an Ambitious and Outspoken FC should have told me (possibly on live TV) to sod off, after the 3rd game I had been playing him as Left Winger, despite him being a Right-footed Striker.

Instead players just say nothing, unless it's a reaction to the wrong answer in press conference, or a response to some other "big story", like a transfer offer.

And even there, there isn't much point in them being mad...

A bunch of appearences and wins, and everything's fine again. Or at least it's not so bad.

Speaking of real life events, wanna discuss about Adriano's alcoholism after his father's death? Or Cassano becoming fat like a blimp at Madrid? Or again Cassano threatening to leave Sampdoria because he got booed by a handful of people?

Or players being ambushed by hooligans after a string of poor performances? Or racist boos? Etc etc etc...

But even without going there... STANDARD FOOTBALL EVENTS should be covered by the "man management" side of FM, which is, at the moment, too little and too buried deep down tons of tactical shenanigans.

[Cydver]

Can we just stop with this inane bickering about who has read or not read what and just move on, possibly to come out with something vaguely constructive?!

I've said it already, but apparently keeping on fighting for a "win" in a sterile argument was more interesting, so I'll say it again.

MAN MANAGEMENT is somewhat present in FM 10, but it's too much of an afterthough (and/or as a chore) to be actually a part of the focal point of the gaming experience.

Tingting put it well: once you have found a decent tactic and the results are kinda okay, you don't need to worry about much more than clicking Play and Continue.

Occasionally you'll have to be careful not to put your foot in your mouth in press conferences not to cause a small and insignificant buzz in the dressing room, but unless you do it on purpose week in and week out, you won't be able to kill the mood.

Players' personalities are a great addition, on paper, but their impact on the game is minimal, at least to my knowledge.

I've had a couple of players Unhappy because they wanted to move to a bigger club, for ONE YEAR or so... Yet their morale is okay/good and they still perform around 7.00 level.

Even those who asked to be transfer-listed haven't lost a step on the pitch.

Now, unless I'm lucky and they'll are model professionals, that's not that real, isn't it?

And there's plenty of situations where FM personality fails to reproduce a life-like scenario.

Psychological tratis would be so much better if the human manager actually had the tools to interact with his players on a regular basis about many aspects of the game

Instead we have:

* Team Talks (cryptic and too generic)

* Form Praise/Criticism (public... often not a wise choice)

* PPM (ok but we need more freedom)

* Squad/Transfer status (with NO explaination possible)

* One-size-fits-all Training.

IMO it's not even remotely enough, if compared with all the tactical fine-tuning still lying under the useful and user-friendly Tactical Wizard.

Tactical interaction is not an option, it's a MUST.

Players must have preferred roles and duties, instead of soldiering on playing (even playing well) on secondary roles, on the wrong side of the pitch and in a way that doesn't suit them...

Model professionals can adapt to that, but an Ambitious and Outspoken FC should have told me (possibly on live TV) to sod off, after the 3rd game I had been playing him as Left Winger, despite him being a Right-footed Striker.

Instead players just say nothing, unless it's a reaction to the wrong answer in press conference, or a response to some other "big story", like a transfer offer.

And even there, there isn't much point in them being mad...

A bunch of appearences and wins, and everything's fine again. Or at least it's not so bad.

Speaking of real life events, wanna discuss about Adriano's alcoholism after his father's death? Or Cassano becoming fat like a blimp at Madrid? Or again Cassano threatening to leave Sampdoria because he got booed by a handful of people?

Or players being ambushed by hooligans after a string of poor performances? Or racist boos? Etc etc etc...

But even without going there... STANDARD FOOTBALL EVENTS should be covered by the "man management" side of FM, which is, at the moment, too little and too buried deep down tons of tactical shenanigans.

I agree with this. Can we focus on the topic instead of each other?

[crouchaldinho]

RBKalle, you make one or two good points, but I'm going to play devil's advocate with a few things that you have said.

Tingting put it well: once you have found a decent tactic and the results are kinda okay, you don't need to worry about much more than clicking Play and Continue.

What tactic is this? A so-called 'super' tactic? A creator tactic?

I simply don't find that to be the case in my games.

Occasionally you'll have to be careful not to put your foot in your mouth in press conferences not to cause a small and insignificant buzz in the dressing room, but unless you do it on purpose week in and week out, you won't be able to kill the mood.

Rather than trying to avoid saying the wrong thing, do you ever try to say the right thing instead? That is, do you ever try to think about press conferences as a tool to motivate your players?

Players' personalities are a great addition, on paper, but their impact on the game is minimal, at least to my knowledge.

I hesitate to do so, but I would have to question your knowledge here. Have you ever read some of the threads in the CSE forum. I am, in particular, thinking of the 'Bandits' threads that have run for a few versions.

I find personalities really do matter, on and off the pitch. The introduction of the in-game motivation widget (which came with FM09) added a new depth to the game in this respect. I see some of my younger players becoming 'nervous' when trying to hold on to a tight lead or some of the less professional individuals becoming 'complacent' when 1-0 up against inferior opposition. That's just a couple of examples. Studying this can tell you a lot about their different personalities for starters. That's not even going into the impact they have on a player's development too, for instance. So they certainly have quite a big impact and I think you are doing them an injustice.

Instead we have:

* Team Talks (cryptic and too generic)

Suggest a better system, which doesn't become a 'win' button or entirely pointless. Are they really that 'cryptic' as well?

* Form Praise/Criticism (public... often not a wise choice)

Plenty of managers use the media to praise or critcise players in real life. HOWEVER, this is one thing that I must agree on. As I said earlier in the thread, I would very much like the opportunity to communicate directly with a player instead of through the media all of the time. But such a feature is fraught with difficulties and open to abuse, so it would need to be carefully thought out.

* PPM (ok but we need more freedom)

Please elaborate.

* Squad/Transfer status (with NO explaination possible)

Players often do call you up on this. It is also especially common to find the press asking you questions about this as well.

* One-size-fits-all Training.

How is it 'one-size-fits-all? :confused:

Players must have preferred roles and duties, instead of soldiering on playing (even playing well) on secondary roles, on the wrong side of the pitch and in a way that doesn't suit them...

I would agree with this. It's something I haven't seen in the game.

after the 3rd game I had been playing him as Left Winger, despite him being a Right-footed Striker.

Do you mean as an 'inside forward' as is very common in modern football.

A bunch of appearences and wins, and everything's fine again. Or at least it's not so bad.

Winning games of football is, and always will be, the most powerful way of increasing morale. Look at Liverpool. Last season they couldn't stop winning. Now they are losing and there is all kinds of rumours regarding the unhappiness of the players, many of which are said to have been present for a couple of seasons!

Speaking of real life events, wanna discuss about Adriano's alcoholism after his father's death? Or Cassano becoming fat like a blimp at Madrid? Or again Cassano threatening to leave Sampdoria because he got booed by a handful of people?

Or players being ambushed by hooligans after a string of poor performances? Or racist boos? Etc etc etc...

There really isn't a place for such tacky nonsense in Football Manager. The game will never include a player's parents dying, cases of alcoholism and so on and so forth, for legal reasons. Players do frequently have 'personal problems' and so on and so forth. Is this not enough? Do we lack such imagination that we have to have things like this spelled out to us?

[tak]

Thank you RBKalle. There is another good example called Ronaldinho which deteriorated after he decided not to care about much but parties. I realise that someone can say "that is reflected in the game by low professionalism". OK, let us look at that.

In FM a player has low professionalism. Somehow, after you spend three months in the forums, you might find out why a player of this calibre behaves poorly. And again you might not be sure. However, in real life you would know pretty well what's happening from day one.

Furthermore, if you are absolutely certain an FM player has low professionalism, there is nothing you can do in FM other than assign a mentor. However, in real life you could do a lot of things.

Let us take it one step further: We are in real life and you decide to go easy on Ronaldinho the first time he takes the jet to Rio. You take him into your office and you explain to him that you have seen a few people deciding to live the good life, who quickly went down.

The problems that we face now are: What is your perceived calibre? How does Ronaldinho see you? Are you friends? What common experiences you have? And a lot others.

Let us take it yet one more step further:

I have to catch a train so I will continue later.

PLEASE, if you want to disagree or you think I am ignorant or a lunatic or whatever PLEASE DO NOT POST. Your silence will serve as a confirmation that I am a thug. PLEASE MODERATORS PROTECT THIS THREAD. IT IS GOING SOMEWHERE INTERESTING.

[daryn]

RBKalle,

"Speaking of real life events, wanna discuss about Adriano's alcoholism after his father's death? Or Cassano becoming fat like a blimp at Madrid? Or again Cassano threatening to leave Sampdoria because he got booed by a handful of people?

Or players being ambushed by hooligans after a string of poor performances? Or racist boos? Etc etc etc..."

These are pretty non standard real life events that don't come around too often. You mention about more standard football events being included in the man management side of FM. I'd be keen to hear what standard events you feel should be in FM that aren't. Not saying that you do, but if you feel that there should also be many "non standard" events included in FM such as weight issues, drink problems and violence, does this not run the risk of weighting things too much away from tactics? Not sure violence or racist fans have any place in a football management game / sim......

[Matt123456]

I am disappointed that a good thread has been started by such an ignorant poster. I've tried to give tak time and be polite, but to be totally frank i have lost patience. If you read his whole argument, from the first post to the last, it is rambling, incorent and changes the subject whenever faced with an unaswerable question. Then he personally insults those who are trying help him (thank you WWFan by the way for showing simply unbelievable level of patience) and asks those who posts him unaswerable question to go away, so he doesn't have to wrack his brains for an answer. I'm sure I too am going to get insulted for this post, or maybe asked to keep my ideas to myself, but frankly I think there is the potential here for some very valuable feedback for SI.

Tak, you keep talking about this "leap of faith." Yet you have not put forward ANY ideas about what this leap of faith could be.

PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION. WHAT ARE YOU SUGGESTING FOR THIS LEAP OF FAITH. CAN WE HAVE SOME CONCRETE IDEAS PLEASE INSTEAD OF INTANGIBLE, UNQUANTIFIABLE THINGS.

I'll put some more forward for myself. I think it is too hard at the moment to understand the effects of man-management. There is no doubt it is in the game and it can be found, but i think most users just ignore it because of the risk it poses (e.g. one player interaction can cause your star player to hate you and once to move) which is too large for the limited amount of options given. It would be better if there were more options for player interactions. Team talks for example are hard to gauge the effect off. I also think that a very good idea would to be have player specific team talks. As in there are different options for each player depending on their personality, skill-level, attributes etc. I understand this may be difficult to implement, but just an idea.

And as for man-management being "just an add-on," there is a very good reason for that. The tactical ME is the core of Football Management, and has been around since the very first incarnation. Everything else has been "added-on" as it were. To make a "dynamic environment" the game would - at least to my knowledge - have to be completely redesigned. That would mean bugs and problems, in which the same people who are complaining about this would complain about. It would really be a "leap of faith," and a disasterous one for SI and those who love FM. I think that the game is very good already. It has its flaws, but to have a "leap of faith" and change it completely is a stupid idea. Why change an already good formula? Tweak it definitely. Perfect it. But there is no need to overhaul it.

[tingting]

I would disagree with that though. That's my point. And my other point would be that he has reached this conclusion without a basic knowledge of what is actually in the game (almost as if he hasn't really played it!)

I am not trying to start another argument in a thread which has more than its full but if you read a couple of posts from the start of page 2 he has clearly said tactics are not the only job of a manager...however it is open to different interpretations so....

I couldn't comment on that really as I don't play with big teams. But then again, I don't seem to have found it quite as easy as you have. I find there is a challenge in keeping my players motivated through press conferences, team talks and through other interaction. I work on instilling a culture in my side. A culture of highly ambitious, determined and professional players. The way I treat everything in the game is with a fair but firm approach. Getting the balance right between encouraging my players and being hard on them can actually be quite challenging. This existing complexity is entirely dismissed by the opening poster.

Firstly please dont club me with any other poster. The only point i agreed with the OP was regarding the focus on tactics. The "culture of highly ambitious, determined and professional players" deals with squad building which can easily be done by making a player search and the buying. Its not culture..its what type of squad you want to have. This can be influenced in the game by tutoring but i believe tutoring in the game is a bit unrealistic.

With regards to press conferences, i always choose the second best option from those 4-5 given and not once has a player moaned about it. The same goes for team talks, even if i say i am delighted when i beat chelsea 4-0 the response given is "nothing specific noted" or "did not seem to be listening".

Funnily enough, almost everything you mention there has been changed and added to in the last few versions, with the obvious exception of training.

Sorry but in what way? I am not speaking about FM 05 and FM 10. Manager contracts and player contracts are the same in the last 3 versions, ditto for team talks and board interaction (i dont remember when the pre-season expectations were introduced but again that is a bit unrealistic the only realistic thing about board interaction is the conversion of wage budget to transfer budget or vice versa)

And in what way has player management improved? In fact i have to say training has improved rather than player management. Tutoring and PPMs are not player management...they are training. You can hop the player all over the pitch, you can bring a player as a sub for the last 10-15 minutes and even though his status is key player, he continues to remain happy because his number says he has played 40 matches in a season even if 35 of them are as a sub.

If you are saying that tactics creator is an improvement in the tactics system, then again i will have to disagree. As i said before, tactics creator is a cosmetic feature that only helps us ignore the confusion of slider numbers and choose styles that have been selected/perfected by others. The basis of tactics is same for the last three versions. Apart from the "Wing Play" option, what has changed in the tactical system?

Edit: Just saw this reply from Crouch

What tactic is this? A so-called 'super' tactic? A creator tactic?

I simply don't find that to be the case in my games.

And it really brought a smile to my face. In the last page, everyone was praising dafuge (no disrespect...i agree that you have done a great job..only using your name to highlight my point) when he said that all you have to do is get them playing in a good way and then tweak just a bit depending on the performance and get better players...and now suddenly comes the issue of super tactics. Did i or RBKalle say anything about super tactics? Of course there is no such thing as super tactic and i do tweak it depending on my team's performance in that particular match.

What i was saying (and hopefully RBKalle too) was that once you put up a decent tactic, the game becomes really simple

[crouchaldinho]

TIn FM a player has low professionalism. Somehow, after you spend three months in the forums, you might find out why a player of this calibre behaves poorly. And again you might not be sure. However, in real life you would know pretty well what's happening from day one.

Would you though? Categorically no, you wouldn't! Life is not black and white like that. A player might be playing poorly for all kinds of reasons. He might just be young and inconsistent. He might be struggling with pressure. He might be lacking in ambition. He might be unprofessional. He might just have personal problems. There are hundreds of reasons why he might not be performing well. I can give you some real life examples of this if you want one?

Human character is not black and white. We cannot say for certain anything about the motivations of another human being. I don't see any reason why this should be explicit in Football Manager. It is up to you to test the waters with this player, to look at his motivation during matches, to judge how he reacts to your team talks, press conferences and so on and so forth.

Furthermore, if you are absolutely certain an FM player has low professionalism, there is nothing you can do in FM other than assign a mentor. However, in real life you could do a lot of things.

Well, you could also warn him or fine him. You could work on getting the best out of him by giving him his own talks during team talks. You could try to influence him by mentioning him in your press conferences. You could interact with him through the media and try to bring out a different side of him.

What can you do in real life that you cannot do in FM (aside from speaking directly to him, which I would also like to see in the game?)

Let us take it one step further: We are in real life and you decide to go easy on Ronaldinho the first time he takes the jet to Rio. You take him into your office and you explain to him that you have seen a few people deciding to live the good life, who quickly went down.

The problems that we face now are: What is your perceived calibre? How does Ronaldinho see you?

Manager reputation. Does he respect you? Will he 'lack the motivation to play for you'. Steven Gerrard didn't respect my authority when I took over as England manager in one of my saves. He was quickly dropped.

Will he accept his warning or not? That can tell you a lot about his character.

Will he feel that 'his mentor has abandoned him'? And so on and so forth.

Just a few of the things that are already in the game.

Are you friends?

Are you on his favourite personnel? Does he fall in line with what you say or does he get upset or angry about it?

What common experiences you have?

How do you see this being put into the game? In fact, how do you see any of this stuff going into the game?

Do you also realise that a lot of the stuff is already in the game to some extent? Do you realise the potential for it to become extremely boring and dull indeed? Getting the balance right is very important.

Finally, why does everything have to be so black and white with you. Do you lack imagination?

'Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass'. Some of this stuff would just be totally unnecessary detail. Finally, some of this stuff has to be hidden from the user because human character is complex and difficult to understand and you wouldn't find it easy to make such discoveries in real life either.

[crouchaldinho]

Matt123456 - I think that is a very good post with some good, constructive points made.

[Matt123456]

Matt123456 - I think that is a very good post with some good, constructive points made.

Thank you. I was tired off him dodging points and rambling off track and want to get some serious, concrete answers that can be hopefully used to improve the game rather than arguments and theoretical "leaps of faith." And Tak, please put this thread back on track and put some ideas of your own forward.

[Cydver]

Human character is not black and white. We cannot say for certain anything about the motivations of another human being. I don't see any reason why this should be explicit in Football Manager. It is up to you to test the waters with this player, to look at his motivation during matches, to judge how he reacts to your team talks, press conferences and so on and so forth.

Hey, this is a fantastic point. It would be great to actually be able to do this right in Football Manager. I know you've talked about direct interaction, but looking at team talks and press conferences at the moment, from what you've said, they're nowhere near the desired level of substance. I don't think managers get multiple choice questions in real-life. And whilst I know it'll be hard to program for open-ended answers, conferences should have more diversity (more answers, more questions, and at least some phrase-checking with the severely underused open-ended blank). Same goes for team talks, I mean I'm now clicking the assistant's advice button and manually tweaking for just one or two players. It's also been reported often on the forums that people get better performances with their assistants in charge. To be fair managers in real life do that sometimes, but when it gets to a point where a manager does not simply have to take team talks yet coax wins out of his players, it just shows the half-boiled nature of this feature.

And once more, direct player interaction is a must.

In FM at the moment, players have the brains and personality of a rock. They often go back on what they say within a few days, they don't respond properly to certain decisions the manager makes etc. Their personalities as set by the game engine have to shine out more. I want to have headaches where someone with >18 Ambition and rather low Professionalism speak out about being played in the wrong positions. I'm not just talking Inside Forward, opposite flanks etc. I'm talking Nani, whom I've shunted to right-back (Wing-back role) because Neville's retired, Rafael's injured, O'Shea is injured, Hargreaves is injured, and Fletcher is injured. And any 1st team-ready reserve players are out on loan. Also, I think very highly of him in real life. He did well in his first game(7.4), but I've stuck with him after my choices return due to his superb performances. He won't be too happy about that in real life I would presume! I am also quite sure he has high ambition, middle-low Professionalism, and generally isn't going to sacrifice for the team.

[crouchaldinho]

The "culture of highly ambitious, determined and professional players" deals with squad building which can easily be done by making a player search and the buying. Its not culture..its what type of squad you want to have.

It is culture. Culture defined as 'the predominating attitudes and behaviour that characterize the functioning of a group or organization'. I build a culture based on ambition and determination. It's not just squad building but also the methods of communication and man management I use when I'm playing the game. Every decision I make, I try to think about what my answer should be in terms of ambition and pressure. The culture at my club is always to reduce pressure and to promote ambition. If you want me to talk more about this, then I would be happy to do so.

And in what way has player management improved?

It is now far more complex and in depth. Motivational feedback during games allows you to better assess your players and their characters. Press conferences are far more in depth compared to what was offered in FM07.

In fact i have to say training has improved rather than player management. Tutoring and PPMs are not player management...they are training.

You are right. So training has improved as well then.

If you are saying that tactics creator is an improvement in the tactics system, then again i will have to disagree. As i said before, tactics creator is a cosmetic feature that only helps us ignore the confusion of slider numbers and choose styles that have been selected/perfected by others. The basis of tactics is same for the last three versions. Apart from the "Wing Play" option, what has changed in the tactical system?

The new tactics system is a masterpiece in my opinion, taking the effort out of understanding the sliders and making tactics, and changing the tactical emphasis of the game. I consider it to be one of the greatest things to happen to the game in recent years.

The new creator and shouts have changed the game for me. Now, the main effort you are required to put into the tactical side of the game is in working out how to build your tactic around the strengths of your team and how to outwit the opposition manager, which is exactly how it should be. It leads to more of a complete experience in my view. I feel that I can really role-play as a manager on the sideline communicating with my players and trying to influence the game. I love having tactical 'tussles' with other managers and when things go right, it can be very satisfying indeed. It has brought about a much needed change of emphasis to an already very good system in my opinion.

[crouchaldinho]

Edit: Just saw this reply from Crouch

And it really brought a smile to my face. In the last page, everyone was praising dafuge (no disrespect...i agree that you have done a great job..only using your name to highlight my point) when he said that all you have to do is get them playing in a good way and then tweak just a bit depending on the performance and get better players...and now suddenly comes the issue of super tactics. Did i or RBKalle say anything about super tactics? Of course there is no such thing as super tactic and i do tweak it depending on my team's performance in that particular match.

What i was saying (and hopefully RBKalle too) was that once you put up a decent tactic, the game becomes really simple

Some people say that tactics are too important and that the game is too difficult and complex for them.

Some people say that team talks and man management make far too much difference to the performances and results of their team and that tactics and players are not important enough.

Others still say that players are way too important and that if you have a good team you can win everything without really trying at tactics and motivation.

So many different opinions. I've seen all of them made on this forum at some point since FM10 has come out.

Which one is true? Probably none of them and all of them! We all seem to find what we want in the game, which might actually suggest that it is getting things just about right.

[djwilko6]

Slightly off-topic but since crouchy mentioned shouts I would love the option to have shouts saved for the next game, rather than having to pause the match in the first minute and set them then, because I usually forget lol

Not really a "leap of faith" just a small addition.

[RBKalle]

RBKalle, you make one or two good points, but I'm going to play devil's advocate with a few things that you have said.

What tactic is this? A so-called 'super' tactic? A creator tactic?

I simply don't find that to be the case in my games.

I rotate my own tactic, created with the wizard and slightly altered with sliders, and a downloaded tactic I've further elaborated to better fit my regulars.

Nothing too professional, at all.

What I mean is, once you have the upper hand on the transfer market (not that hard... AI is rather poor at it), you can get a massive advantage in terms of players.

Also, no matter WHO play in your system, it'll workd quite well, almost regardless of the players.

Rather than trying to avoid saying the wrong thing, do you ever try to say the right thing instead? That is, do you ever try to think about press conferences as a tool to motivate your players?

Of course I do!

But sometimes there doesn't seem to be the "right" thing... Eg when they ask you about your chances of keeping X at your club...

I hesitate to do so, but I would have to question your knowledge here. Have you ever read some of the threads in the CSE forum. I am, in particular, thinking of the 'Bandits' threads that have run for a few versions.

I find personalities really do matter, on and off the pitch. The introduction of the in-game motivation widget (which came with FM09) added a new depth to the game in this respect. I see some of my younger players becoming 'nervous' when trying to hold on to a tight lead or some of the less professional individuals becoming 'complacent' when 1-0 up against inferior opposition. That's just a couple of examples. Studying this can tell you a lot about their different personalities for starters. That's not even going into the impact they have on a player's development too, for instance. So they certainly have quite a big impact and I think you are doing them an injustice.

Let's say the Motivation Widget is the only one I always have on while watching...

I haven't read much, because quite frankly I don't feel like reading pages and pages of "literature" about a game (I've already enough mandatory reading for College... a game is just for relaxing, not for more reading).

But I did take a look to the descriptions of the various personalities and I've understood how they affect the players.

My beef with it is that there isn't a straightforward way to deal with the players according to their personality, except team talks.

It's as if the Manager just shows up on matchday for the motivational speech, and then disappears until the next one, leaving the players on their own with the coaches.

Suggest a better system, which doesn't become a 'win' button or entirely pointless. Are they really that 'cryptic' as well?

For starters: MORE choices.

And choices which doesn't need a "translation chart"... where "for the fans" can mean many different things depending on the situation.

A pre-match meeting where you set the "goals" for the match would be fine, with specific players expectations.

Currently the team talk is a good starting point, but I maintain it's a tad too generic and leaves too much to the "imagination" of the player.

Plenty of managers use the media to praise or critcise players in real life. HOWEVER, this is one thing that I must agree on. As I said earlier in the thread, I would very much like the opportunity to communicate directly with a player instead of through the media all of the time. But such a feature is fraught with difficulties and open to abuse, so it would need to be carefully thought out.

Of course it'd be open to abuse, like pretty much everything human-controlled in the game. But here we agree we need something, otherwise the manager-players interaction will always be shallow and quite pointless

Please elaborate.

A broader choice of PPMs, and the chance of asking for more complicated tasks/roles.

I don't know, like proposing a generic MC to adapt his game to Box-to-Box, or to serve as Playmaker.

This would be linked to the long overdue "specific roles and duties" feature I mentioned already. And to more specific (less convoluted) tactical instructions.

But for now, more PPM would be fine.

Players often do call you up on this. It is also especially common to find the press asking you questions about this as well.

True, but all we get is a small set of preset answers.

When they ask me about X player feeling underappreciated, I want to explain "he's a good all-around player and a valuable rotation/backup" or "he's the backup of our star goalie, if he does want to play regularly, I'll loan him out/sell him." etc.

It's always down to MORE and BETTER face-to-face dressing room interaction, before going to whine on TV ['cept the token troublemakers]

How is it 'one-size-fits-all? :confused:

FB trains on "set pieces" for crossing, but gets points in throw ins and free kicks... and similar absurdities.

Also, it's hard to create a specific schedule for similar roles but different duties.

In general, it feels too random in the way it develops a player's skills.

I would agree with this. It's something I haven't seen in the game.

In my opinion, this should be the MOST PRESSING ISSUE of the whole tactical side of the game.

What's the point in having 20 different sub-roles, if anyone can play decently everywhere?

Diego's abysmal season at Juventus is a prime example of such inability of covering whatever role as long as it's on the "known" area of the pitch.

Do you mean as an 'inside forward' as is very common in modern football.

Call it Inside Forward or Winger, but a native Striker playing very wide, and on the wrong side, should complain and/or perform below average. Especially if not a model professional.

Winning games of football is, and always will be, the most powerful way of increasing morale. Look at Liverpool. Last season they couldn't stop winning. Now they are losing and there is all kinds of rumours regarding the unhappiness of the players, many of which are said to have been present for a couple of seasons!

I know that.

Nonetheless, if a player wants out to further his career [and for me I'm speaking of international players wanting to leave Norway, not top-level EPL...], he wants out no matter how many "useless" championships he may win.

Some of my players have been "unhappy" on-and-off for like three years... The only ones who left were those for whom the board accepted an offer on my behalf... all the others are still there. And playing well.

There really isn't a place for such tacky nonsense in Football Manager. The game will never include player's parents dying, cases of alcholism and so on and so forth, for legal reasons. Players do frequently have 'personal problems' and so on and so forth. Is this not enough? Do we lack such imagination that we have to have the things like this spelled out to us?

I agree thare isn't a place for that, but it was a direct reply to the "what are those outside factors" objections someone did some posts ago.

I don't say I want them or we need them. It was just for the sake of argument

[crouchaldinho]

Hey, this is a fantastic point. It would be great to actually be able to do this right in Football Manager.

Well you can.

I know you've talked about direct interaction, but looking at team talks and press conferences at the moment, from what you've said, they're nowhere near the desired level of substance.

There is definitely room for improvement but you have to remember that this is only the second outing for press conferences and I think they have improved quite a bit since FM09.

Same goes for team talks, I mean I'm now clicking the assistant's advice button and manually tweaking for just one or two players. It's also been reported often on the forums that people get better performances with their assistants in charge.

That's because they aren't very good managers then.

[Matt123456]

For starters: MORE choices.

And choices which doesn't need a "translation chart"... where "for the fans" can mean many different things depending on the situation.

A broader choice of PPMs, and the chance of asking for more complicated tasks/roles.

I don't know, like proposing a generic MC to adapt his game to Box-to-Box, or to serve as Playmaker.

This would be linked to the long overdue "specific roles and duties" feature I mentioned already. And to more specific (less convoluted) tactical instructions.

But for now, more PPM would be fine.

FB trains on "set pieces" for crossing, but gets points in throw ins and free kicks... and similar absurdities.

Also, it's hard to create a specific schedule for similar roles but different duties.

In general, it feels too random in the way it develops a player's skills.

These points highlighted I think are brilliant. :thup: The first and last definitely need to be looked at to take the game from good to great I think.

[crouchaldinho]

I don't have time to respond to absolutely everything you've said RBKalle but I actually think we're working on the same wavelength anyway so I don't have a lot to disagree with you about!

What I mean is, once you have the upper hand on the transfer market (not that hard... AI is rather poor at it), you can get a massive advantage in terms of players.

The transfer AI does need improving and I think SI are well aware of it. This is really a fault of the transfer AI rather than anything to do with the tactical or man management side of the game though.

Also, no matter WHO play in your system, it'll workd quite well, almost regardless of the players.

I don't tend to find that. If I put a crap player in my deep-lying playmaker position, for instance, my team lose more often than they win, which was a problem for me last season when my most creative DM got injured and, in the end, I had to switch to 4-4-1-1 and play two normal CMs. I simply don't see this point in my game to be honest.

But sometimes there doesn't seem to be the "right" thing... Eg when they ask you about your chances of keeping X at your club...

Sometimes there isn't a right answer in real life either. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Let's say the Motivation Widget is the only one I always have on while watching...

My beef with it is that there isn't a straightforward way to deal with the players according to their personality, except team talks.

It's as if the Manager just shows up on matchday for the motivational speech, and then disappears until the next one, leaving the players on their own with the coaches.

It's a good point and I wouldn't disagree. I'd like to see some direct interaction in there. At the same time, I'd be wary about introducing too much, because so many people find the current interaction to be too much for them already!

For starters: MORE choices.

Not going to disagree with this.

And choices which doesn't need a "translation chart"... where "for the fans" can mean many different things depending on the situation.

I actually happen to agree that team talks could be made a little clearer and perhaps better defined. However, with team talks, you could argue for ambiguity in real life, couldn't you? Take the team talk 'none' as an example. If I am a real football manager, do I know what saying nothing motivational to my players will mean to them or result in? I don't. There may be some instances where me saying nothing actually has significance for the players, such as when they are under-performing and expecting to get the hair-dryer treatment. In that scenario, if I say nothing about it to them, that will have a significance. The likelihood is that it will show them that I am actually too angry to even speak to them about their performance. However, saying nothing motivational (or using 'none') takes on an entirely different meaning if it is a match that the team are expected to win and they are doing their job well but don't deserve any specific praise. In this case, the meaning has changed and my silence in terms of motivational matters actually has little or no significance. Do you see what I am trying to say?

The argument could be that it is up to the FM player to find out how using 'none' (or any other team talk) will work, just as it is up to a manager in real life to find out how his players will react to him saying nothing motivational in the dressing room at half-time. What am I trying to say is that this communication has an ambiguity to its meaning in real life. Wouldn't it therefore be unrealistic for us to know exactly what it means or is meant to mean in every case? Hope you understand the point I am making.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. I personally would like to see some improvement to team talks with more options built into the current system. I'm sure SI are aware that it can be improved and perhaps it is something for FM11. However, I believe that any system is likely to have some ambiguity built into it, for the reasons outlined above.

Currently the team talk is a good starting point, but I maintain it's a tad too generic and leaves too much to the "imagination" of the player.

Perhaps this is where I am different to everyone else on here. I like using my imagination and I cannot think of anything duller than having everything spelled out for me and made abundantly clear all of the time.

[tingting]

It is culture. Culture defined as 'the predominating attitudes and behaviour that characterize the functioning of a group or organization'. I build a culture based on ambition and determination. It's not just squad building but also the methods of communication and man management I use when I'm playing the game. Every decision I make, I try to think about what my answer should be in terms of ambition and pressure. The culture at my club is always to reduce pressure and to promote ambition. If you want me to talk more about this, then I would be happy to do so.

Yes i would like to please. So tell me how do you increase the ambition, the determination and professionalism in your squad??

It is now far more complex and in depth. Motivational feedback during games allows you to better assess your players and their characters. Press conferences are far more in depth compared to what was offered in FM07.

So you mean to say that team talks were just a gimmick before the motivation feedback widget was introduced? Am i wrong to think that the motivation widget displays what is the effect on your player's morale during the game? I have seen my players play very well even when complacent or nervous (in fact drogba scored a hat trick for my Ivory Coast team when the widget listed him as nervous) and play poorly even when their motivation is listed as looking fired up.

Players' performance can be assessed even without the motivation widget as to whether they are playing well not while personality could have been known by looking at the effects of team talk which we were able to find out in the team feedback screen

The new tactics system is a masterpiece in my opinion, taking the effort out of understanding the sliders and making tactics, and changing the tactical emphasis of the game. I consider it to be one of the greatest things to happen to the game in recent years.

The new creator and shouts have changed the game for me. Now, the main effort you are required to put into the tactical side of the game is in working out how to build your tactic around the strengths of your team and how to outwit the opposition manager, which is exactly how it should be. It leads to more of a complete experience in my view. I feel that I can really role-play as a manager on the sideline communicating with my players and trying to influence the game. I love having tactical 'tussles' with other managers and when things go right, it can be very satisfying indeed. It has brought about a much needed change of emphasis to an already very good system in my opinion.

I have nothing against the tactics creator...in fact i believe it is the best feature added in recent years. However tactics creator and tactics system are two different things. Tactics system is the same it is just explained in understanding terms to us human managers through tactics creator.

[RBKalle]

I see the point of the "imagination" theory, and also how the same thing (be it silence or "for the fans!") might take different meaning to different players under different circumstances.

However I do feel we are currently lacking a major tool to actually understand what we are saying to our team. (It's the missing link if you wish).

That's where my Pre-match meeting" comes into play.

Just like our backroom staff gives us informations and advice, a Manager ought to do the same with players.

Currently we just have Morale and eventual sparse PR feedbacks to understand what our players think/feel. I'd like to, and I think we need to, know what's on their mind BEFORE THE GAME, if we have to give them a good speech.

It's like going at your girlfriend's without knowing which mood she's in, and saying something... The same line might get you laid today or a black eye and no sex for weeks tomorrow.

Same with our players... "For the fans" might lead to a goal fest, or to a boring 0-0 with plenty of wasted chances, but why?

[crouchaldinho]

Yes i would like to please. So tell me how do you increase the ambition, the determination and professionalism in your squad??

By buying new players, by tutoring, through disciplinary procedures. But I also create a culture. Let me explain.

This comes from a book by Sven Goran Eriksson. In the book, four personality types A, B, C, D are identified, as below.

A - high ambition & high performance anxiety.

B - high ambition but not afraid of failing.

C - little ambition & afraid of making mistakes

D - little ambition but not bothered about failing.

D achieves least. He has little ambition and low performance anxiety and is therefore not going to generate any kind of energy.

C is next. He will mainly use his energy to avoid making mistakes.

The footballers we are most interested in are the ones with ambition.

A has great ambition which gives him drive but his performance anxiety pulls him in the opposite direction.

However, B makes the most of himself. He is a winner and dares to excel when it really matters.

Erikkson says that only around 20% of players he has worked with are B types.

So my idea is to create a B culture around my team. That is, to stimulate ambition and to reduce fear.

I think about this when I am giving team talks. Am I being ambitious enough and challenging my players (team talks like 'expect a win', 'expect a performance' etc.) or do I need to reduce fear (team talks like 'we can win this' or other encouraging and supportive team talks)?

Getting the balance right is what makes a great football manager in my opinion. That is the culture I try to bring to the club that I am managing.

So you mean to say that team talks were just a gimmick before the motivation feedback widget was introduced? Am i wrong to think that the motivation widget displays what is the effect on your player's morale during the game? I have seen my players play very well even when complacent or nervous (in fact drogba scored a hat trick for my Ivory Coast team when the widget listed him as nervous) and play poorly even when their motivation is listed as looking fired up.

Think you have missed the point. Players will react in various ways depending upon the circumstances of the game. A nervous player might lose his nerves once you go 2-0 up and get that all important second goal, for instance. It is up to you to judge the situation. Should I take off a nervous player or do I think he should stay on because he has something to offer and his nerves might go if we get a second goal. Are his nerves having a major effect on his performance? So on and so forth!

I have nothing against the tactics creator...in fact i believe it is the best feature added in recent years.

Totally agree.

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

I actually happen to agree that team talks could be made a little clearer and perhaps better defined. However, with team talks, you could argue for ambiguity in real life, couldn't you? ...<snip>

Oh man, not this old chestnut again....

Rather than me spend ages venting my feelings on this matter for the umpteenth time, I'm just going to link to another thread where I reacted to those paragraphs that you cut and pasted into this thread...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?p=4446426#post4446426

Sorry, but I feel very strongly about this.

The likelihood is that it will show them that I am actually too angry to even speak to them about their performance. However, saying nothing motivational (or using 'none') takes on an entirely different meaning if it is a match that the team are expected to win and they are doing their job well but don't deserve any specific praise.

...

The argument could be that it is up to the FM player to find out how using 'none' (or any other team talk) will work, just as it is up to a manager in real life to find out how his players will react to him saying nothing motivational in the dressing room at half-time.

Yes you're right that it should be up to the FM player to find out how saying nothing motivational in the dressing room at half-time will work...

BUT it should NOT (in my very strong opinion!) be up to the FM player to figure out whether that button labelled "none" means they are saying "nothing motivational" or whether it means that you are "too angry to even speak to them".

I hope you understand the difference...

[crouchaldinho]

Squirmy Rooter 2.0 - I'm aware we've been through it before. I do tend to repeat myself somewhat.

Hopefully you get the fact that I am playing devil's advocate and that I am making a point about ambiguity rather than talking about anything particularly specific.

[tingting]

By buying new players, by tutoring, through disciplinary procedures. But I also create a culture. Let me explain.

This comes from a book by Sven Goran Eriksson. In the book, four personality types A, B, C, D are identified, as below.

A - high ambition & high performance anxiety.

B - high ambition but not afraid of failing.

C - little ambition & afraid of making mistakes

D - little ambition but not bothered about failing.

D achieves least. He has little ambition and low performance anxiety and is therefore not going to generate any kind of energy.

C is next. He will mainly use his energy to avoid making mistakes.

The footballers we are most interested in are the ones with ambition.

A has great ambition which gives him drive but his performance anxiety pulls him in the opposite direction.

However, B makes the most of himself. He is a winner and dares to excel when it really matters.

Erikkson says that only around 20% of players he has worked with are B types.

So my idea is to create a B culture around my team. That is, to stimulate ambition and to reduce fear.

I think about this when I am giving team talks. Am I being ambitious enough and challenging my players (team talks like 'expect a win', 'expect a performance' etc.) or do I need to reduce fear (team talks like 'we can win this' or other encouraging and supportive team talks)?

Getting the balance right is what makes a great football manager in my opinion. That is the culture I try to bring to the club that I am managing.

Ok..let me say first of all that i am not arguing...i want to understand your stance on this subject more...it is very easy to misunderstand what i want to say by just looking at the text so again let me say that i am not arguing even if what i have written appears sarcastic/abusive etc etc

Team Talks: Do you mean to say that team talks have long term effect on a player? So if you continue to make one type of comment (not the same choice of comment) a player's personality changes?

Tutoring: Am i correct in thinking that tutoring raises a non-training mental attribute by just a couple of points? If yes...then you would have to have a player with decent attributes (if you want him to become good) or good attributes (if you want him to become very good) in those particular areas (Aggression, Bravery, Determination and Flair and hidden attributes like pressure etc)

Also would you agree that tutoring is a bit unrealistic in the game? A player who is past a particular age (say 18-19) does not improve on his determination or bravery just because he is being tutored by a person who is more determined or more ambitious. These "attributes" can indeed be influenced in their formative years (early teens) but once they go past a particular age, it will not increase. However i am finding players such as Jonny Evans' aggression, determination ratings increase once he completes a successful tutelage by someone like Vidic.

Think you have missed the point. Players will react in various ways depending upon the circumstances of the game. A nervous player might lose his nerves once you go 2-0 up and get that all important second goal, for instance. It is up to you to judge the situation. Should I take off a nervous player or do I think he should stay on because he has something to offer and his nerves might go if we get a second goal. Are his nerves having a major effect on his performance? So on and so forth!

But we were able to do this even without the widget. You can clearly see if a player is nervous or not or fired up or not by watching the game. Or is it that motivation were introduced with the widget (making team talks useless before)

[crouchaldinho]

Team Talks: Do you mean to say that team talks have long term effect on a player? So if you continue to make one type of comment (not the same choice of comment) a player's personality changes?

No, I am not saying that, and I'm pretty sure that it isn't the case.

Tutoring: Am i correct in thinking that tutoring raises a non-training mental attribute by just a couple of points?

Not exactly. Basically, tutoring can influence a player's personality and characteristics by bringing them more in line with the tutor.

If yes...then you would have to have a player with decent attributes (if you want him to become good) or good attributes (if you want him to become very good) in those particular areas (Aggression, Bravery, Determination and Flair and hidden attributes like pressure etc)

Not sure I understand what you are driving at?

Also would you agree that tutoring is a bit unrealistic in the game? A player who is past a particular age (say 18-19) does not improve on his determination or bravery just because he is being tutored by a person who is more determined or more ambitious. These "attributes" can indeed be influenced in their formative years (early teens) but once they go past a particular age, it will not increase. However i am finding players such as Jonny Evans' aggression, determination ratings increase once he completes a successful tutelage by someone like Vidic.

Again, not sure what you are driving at here. It's not really unrealistic to ask a young player to be tutored by an experienced professional is it? Some players don't react well, others do. The best way to keep a culture of ambition, professionalism and positive traits in your squad is to bring in the right kind of players, and to tutor youth players to fit in with the culture of your squad.

[Chelsea football club]

Leap of faith on assiasns creed are good so it must be on fm to.

[tak]

Thank you RBKalle. There is another good example called Ronaldinho which deteriorated after he decided not to care about much but parties. I realise that someone can say "that is reflected in the game by low professionalism". OK, let us look at that.

In FM a player has low professionalism. Somehow, after you spend three months in the forums, you might find out why a player of this calibre behaves poorly. And again you might not be sure. However, in real life you would know pretty well what's happening from day one.

Furthermore, if you are absolutely certain an FM player has low professionalism, there is nothing you can do in FM other than assign a mentor. However, in real life you could do a lot of things.

Let us take it one step further: We are in real life and you decide to go easy on Ronaldinho the first time he takes the jet to Rio. You take him into your office and you explain to him that you have seen a few people deciding to live the good life, who quickly went down.

The problems that we face now are: What is your perceived calibre? How does Ronaldinho see you? Are you friends? What common experiences you have? And a lot others.

Let us take it yet one more step further:

I have to catch a train so I will continue later.

PLEASE, if you want to disagree or you think I am ignorant or a lunatic or whatever PLEASE DO NOT POST. Your silence will serve as a confirmation that I am a thug. PLEASE MODERATORS PROTECT THIS THREAD. IT IS GOING SOMEWHERE INTERESTING.

This is the situation with this talented boy so far. You were informed that he took the plane to Brazil where he had a wonderful time, he then played poorly and in two months he did it again. Immediately you know what is wrong, however in FM it might take you two years of trial and error. Furthermore once you discovered his professionalism in FM is low, some people mentioned fines and tell the press etc. which are not what a real manager would do at this stage, so they do not reflect reality.

During your first meeting there are many factors that play certain roles. Your reputation in FM does not reflect how the player sees you or what your calibre is (especially your powers and weaknesses in one to one meetings). Also, if you are his favourite personel does not mean you are friends on a personal level. Etc.

Also, bear in mind that this is just an example of how complicated real life is (never black and white) and how tactical decisions play a small role in the bigger picture of team management. I am not writting this as a suggestion of what should be introduced in a game yet. OK? Let us move on.

These are the initial stages as I say. You had a meeting and explained to him that his behaviour can hurt him professionaly. Do you add something? This is tricky because you need know (and I am only mentioning very few things, there are a lot more) if he is generaly unhappy with football and does not care, if he is preparing a career change, if he is in love with a Brazilian model, if he is addicted to cocaine, if his manager has prepared a secret agreement with another team etc. Also, what stage of the campaign are you at? Can you afford to lose him? Also, does Adidas force you to play him? Is there a same clause in his contract? These are things I came up with in ten seconds. Imagine how many there actually are.

His manager meets later that day with the parents (but not him) and tells them that Gillete will pull out if he doesn't conquer the Champions league this year. His mother, who is a devout Christian, is doubly shocked and gives him a good bollocking. Rony is afarid of his mother but doesn't give an F about you. He decides to get serious. Unfortunately, Nike wants Kaka to conquer it, and they contact the Brazilian model to make sure he stays a party animal.

Back in you, the manager. Do you tell Ronaldinho that if he continues he will be dropped? Let us say you don't. Gabriel Rodriguez (a regen I got recently), who plays for your team and will compete with Argentina against Ronaldinho later in the year, is not particularly happy. He can't do much though because he is also an Adidas face and their cooperation in the field is the theme of a clip Adidas prepares for worldwide advertising. So Gabriel thinks you are a chicken but for the moment he has to play with Ronaldinho and create some magical moments. Matter of fact, he has to do all the work because Rony is tired from drinking. Gabriel excells in training, as per your assistant's report. You say "well done, Gabriel", he is thinking "yeah, right, after this year I am saying good bye"

As you design detailed tactical plans and some really innovative formations, the model rings Rony and tells him that the greatest party in history is next weekend and that if he attents, a special surprise awaits him that involves two of her colleagues. The Champions League final is in Wednesday but he goes. You, a very knowledgable manager when it comes to inverting the Pyramid decide that he will not play in the Final and to hell with him.

Too bad your boss tells you to shove your decision up yours and go draw some tactics on the drawing board. You decide to take revenge and play Ronaldinho as left hand, semi-attacking, one and a half notches creative Trequartista, a position he hates from school and is notoriously bad at.

At the morning after the party, Ronaldinho has behaved especially badly, and as he sits at the beach, hangover, he remembers his mother, feels guilty and cries. In a while he swears he will change.

When he comes back, you the invertor of pyramids, in front of the whole team, give a brilliant speech about professionalism and a, rather cautious, bollocking to Ronaldinho. You say that if he doesn't perform well in the Final you will make sure he is finished as a fooballer. (Secretely, you hope he doesn't and you know he will be playing his worse position anyway)

The day before the Final you announce the positions and player roles. You look at Ronaldinho who doesn't notice a word you say but looks serene and happy, with an inner glow. Gabriel meets Rony afterwards for a pint and explain to him that they have a chance to make some nice stuff for the Adidas add and devise a plan of action.

The great day comes and to make a long game short, Rony and Gabriel triumph.

The media immediately write how you a) motivated Rony and saved him from alcoholism and b) how you re-introduced him into an old position he always loved from school.

You become a legend.

[Matt123456]

This is the situation with this talented boy so far.....

You've made all these points, but you haven't given any ideas on how to implement into the game. Do you really think that making all that is feasible? If you do tell us how instead of preaching your so called "ideas." Simply those sort of scenarios are one off. There is no point SI coding that into the game, as it will be used so rarely that the it won't be worth the bother of adding it in. It already includes such things as personal problems with you or other players aswell as struggling to settle in. I agree this could be expanded, but definitely not to anywhere near the kind of depth that you seem to be suggesting.

[tingting]

Not sure I understand what you are driving at?

Again, not sure what you are driving at here. It's not really unrealistic to ask a young player to be tutored by an experienced professional is it? Some players don't react well, others do. The best way to keep a culture of ambition, professionalism and positive traits in your squad is to bring in the right kind of players, and to tutor youth players to fit in with the culture of your squad.

With regards to your first question...Assuming characteristics like bravery, determination, ambition and aggression can only be influenced slightly (for example a person who is timid might become brave enough to jump from a rooftop to another which is near but not brave enough to go bungee jumping) just because he is with a very brave person...ie in FM terms that particular attribute rating increases slightly in his career....you need to get a player who already has some of the best attributes in those areas in his age group (hope you understood what i am trying to say) So this is more of a squad building than man management?

As for your second question/comment. No..it is not unrealistic of asking older players to tutor younger players. However what exactly gets influenced there?? Creativity yes...decision making yes...composure yes...however seeing that the main attributes of the B type player (bravery, determination, ambition and aggression) are most often than not pretty much shaped up by the time a player reaches say 18 years of age...these attributes wont change if he is being tutored by a more aggressive player...

for example if ferguson gets keane to tutor say gibson...he might very well get gibson to anticipate the opposition players' moves, decide when is the best time to make his tackle...but he will not influence how aggressively he should tackle or get a player to run all over the pitch right?? But here i have got a 20 year old Evans' aggression and determination ratings increase by two points after he was successfully tutored by Vidic....Also turning an unambitious person into an ambitious person??? ....is this not unrealistic...

[tak]

You've made all these points, but you haven't given any ideas on how to implement into the game. Do you really think that making all that is feasible? If you do tell us how instead of preaching your so called "ideas." Simply those sort of scenarios are one off. There is no point SI coding that into the game, as it will be used so rarely that the it won't be worth the bother of adding it in. It already includes such things as personal problems with you or other players aswell as struggling to settle in. I agree this could be expanded, but definitely not to anywhere near the kind of depth that you seem to be suggesting.

Also, bear in mind that this is just an example of how complicated real life is (never black and white) and how tactical decisions play a small role in the bigger picture of team management. I am not writting this as a suggestion of what should be introduced in a game yet. OK?

[Matt123456]

Also, bear in mind that this is just an example of how complicated real life is (never black and white) and how tactical decisions play a small role in the bigger picture of team management. I am not writting this as a suggestion of what should be introduced in a game yet. OK?

Actually I think it was Crouchaldinho who first said that it was black and white, not you. And if so, what was the point of that? Again can I ask you to put some ideas foward instead of preaching.

[tak]

Actually I think it was Crouchaldinho who first said that it was black and white, not you. And if so, what was the point of that? Again can I ask you to put some ideas foward instead of preaching.

I am sorry if you can't see a point, but patience my friend. There is more to come...

[edgar555]

Thank you RBKalle. There is another good example called Ronaldinho which deteriorated after he decided not to care about much but parties. I realise that someone can say "that is reflected in the game by low professionalism". OK, let us look at that.

In FM a player has low professionalism. Somehow, after you spend three months in the forums, you might find out why a player of this calibre behaves poorly. And again you might not be sure. However, in real life you would know pretty well what's happening from day one.

Furthermore, if you are absolutely certain an FM player has low professionalism, there is nothing you can do in FM other than assign a mentor. However, in real life you could do a lot of things.

Let us take it one step further: We are in real life and you decide to go easy on Ronaldinho the first time he takes the jet to Rio. You take him into your office and you explain to him that you have seen a few people deciding to live the good life, who quickly went down.

The problems that we face now are: What is your perceived calibre? How does Ronaldinho see you? Are you friends? What common experiences you have? And a lot others.

Let us take it yet one more step further:

I have to catch a train so I will continue later.

PLEASE, if you want to disagree or you think I am ignorant or a lunatic or whatever PLEASE DO NOT POST. Your silence will serve as a confirmation that I am a thug. PLEASE MODERATORS PROTECT THIS THREAD. IT IS GOING SOMEWHERE INTERESTING.

If I want to disagree I can't post?? Are we under a tak lead dictatorship? Please, intelligent discussion should be encouraged to broaden all our horizons and attitudes.

To be honest a lot of intelligent discussion was had while you were on the train, maybe you should think about not posting.

You've made all these points, but you haven't given any ideas on how to implement into the game. Do you really think that making all that is feasible? If you do tell us how instead of preaching your so called "ideas." Simply those sort of scenarios are one off. There is no point SI coding that into the game, as it will be used so rarely that the it won't be worth the bother of adding it in. It already includes such things as personal problems with you or other players aswell as struggling to settle in. I agree this could be expanded, but definitely not to anywhere near the kind of depth that you seem to be suggesting.

What he said, basically.

As for putting you on ignore, no chance sunshine, you can put me on your ignore list if you like but there is no way that your lunacy should be allowed to run unchecked.

As pointed out by many you have some interesting ideas but fail to elaborate on any and are then rude to anyone who disagrees with you.

[Blaupunkt]

This is the situation with this talented boy so far. You were informed that he took the plane to Brazil where he had a wonderful time, he then played poorly and in two months he did it again. Immediately you know what is wrong, however in FM it might take you two years of trial and error. Furthermore once you discovered his professionalism in FM is low, some people mentioned fines and tell the press etc. which are not what a real manager would do at this stage, so they do not reflect reality.

During your first meeting there are many factors that play certain roles. Your reputation in FM does not reflect how the player sees you or what your calibre is (especially your powers and weaknesses in one to one meetings). Also, if you are his favourite personel does not mean you are friends on a personal level. Etc.

Also, bear in mind that this is just an example of how complicated real life is (never black and white) and how tactical decisions play a small role in the bigger picture of team management. I am not writting this as a suggestion of what should be introduced in a game yet. OK? Let us move on.

These are the initial stages as I say. You had a meeting and explained to him that his behaviour can hurt him professionaly. Do you add something? This is tricky because you need know (and I am only mentioning very few things, there are a lot more) if he is generaly unhappy with football and does not care, if he is preparing a career change, if he is in love with a Brazilian model, if he is addicted to cocaine, if his manager has prepared a secret agreement with another team etc. Also, what stage of the campaign are you at? Can you afford to lose him? Also, does Adidas force you to play him? Is there a same clause in his contract? These are things I came up with in ten seconds. Imagine how many there actually are.

His manager meets later that day with the parents (but not him) and tells them that Gillete will pull out if he doesn't conquer the Champions league this year. His mother, who is a devout Christian, is doubly shocked and gives him a good bollocking. Rony is afarid of his mother but doesn't give an F about you. He decides to get serious. Unfortunately, Nike wants Kaka to conquer it, and they contact the Brazilian model to make sure he stays a party animal.

Back in you, the manager. Do you tell Ronaldinho that if he continues he will be dropped? Let us say you don't. Gabriel Rodriguez (a regen I got recently), who plays for your team and will compete with Argentina against Ronaldinho later in the year, is not particularly happy. He can't do much though because he is also an Adidas face and their cooperation in the field is the theme of a clip Adidas prepares for worldwide advertising. So Gabriel thinks you are a chicken but for the moment he has to play with Ronaldinho and create some magical moments. Matter of fact, he has to do all the work because Rony is tired from drinking. Gabriel excells in training, as per your assistant's report. You say "well done, Gabriel", he is thinking "yeah, right, after this year I am saying good bye"

As you design detailed tactical plans and some really innovative formations, the model rings Rony and tells him that the greatest party in history is next weekend and that if he attents, a special surprise awaits him that involves two of her colleagues. The Champions League final is in Wednesday but he goes. You, a very knowledgable manager when it comes to inverting the Pyramid decide that he will not play in the Final and to hell with him.

Too bad your boss tells you to shove your decision up yours and go draw some tactics on the drawing board. You decide to take revenge and play Ronaldinho as left hand, semi-attacking, one and a half notches creative Trequartista, a position he hates from school and is notoriously bad at.

At the morning after the party, Ronaldinho has behaved especially badly, and as he sits at the beach, hangover, he remembers his mother, feels guilty and cries. In a while he swears he will change.

When he comes back, you the invertor of pyramids, in front of the whole team, give a brilliant speech about professionalism and a, rather cautious, bollocking to Ronaldinho. You say that if he doesn't perform well in the Final you will make sure he is finished as a fooballer. (Secretely, you hope he doesn't and you know he will be playing his worse position anyway)

The day before the Final you announce the positions and player roles. You look at Ronaldinho who doesn't notice a word you say but looks serene and happy, with an inner glow. Gabriel meets Rony afterwards for a pint and explain to him that they have a chance to make some nice stuff for the Adidas add and devise a plan of action.

The great day comes and to make a long game short, Rony and Gabriel triumph.

The media immediately write how you a) motivated Rony and saved him from alcoholism and b) how you re-introduced him into an old position he always loved from school.

You become a legend.

are you seriously suggesting thing this type of thing should be added to a football management game ? i dont want to play "scenario manager 20xx", when you get x amount of players with these "scenario's" popping up X number of times a season. the example you use is also quite poor as you could not add in REAL LIFE PLAYERS who suddenly be come cocaine addicts, alcoholics, etc the legal implications SI would get into for suggesting player X takes cocaine for example when he has no history of doing this would mean they get sued.

yes i can totally agree that some aspects of FM need to be expanded and improved up on, but adding things like you have put here would become tedious and and tiresome very quickly IMHO.

[tak]

are you seriously suggesting thing this type of thing should be added to a football management game ? i dont want to play "scenario manager 20xx", when you get x amount of players with these "scenario's" popping up X number of times a season. the example you use is also quite poor as you could not add in REAL LIFE PLAYERS who suddenly be come cocaine addicts, alcoholics, etc the legal implications SI would get into for suggesting player X takes cocaine for example when he has no history of doing this would mean they get sued.

yes i can totally agree that some aspects of FM need to be expanded and improved up on, but adding things like you have put here would become tedious and and tiresome very quickly IMHO.

Also, bear in mind that this is just an example of how complicated real life is (never black and white) and how tactical decisions play a small role in the bigger picture of team management. I am not writting this as a suggestion of what should be introduced in a game yet. OK? Let us move on.