crusadertsar

Yeah the only problem for me is that I actually have a great B team with excellent training facilities. Its fully professional and coaches are hired fulltime. I'm in Spain and my B team is in 2nd division so not quite same situation as yours. If anything all of my future 1st Team stars go through it and develop by playing at least one season at higher level than u19. Sort of like Jong Ajax. So not useless at all. It's actually better than loaning them out because you can fully control the tactics and directly put them in the lineup. Just lately lost some coaches from it because they retired and now can't fill the vacancies.

Is it me or is it really hard to hire B Team coaches 😕 ? Plenty of people who want to coach u19 team but I'm having real hard time filling vacancies in my B team. And you cant post a job advert like with u19. So frustrating because my young players in B team seem to be losing attributes.

No I'm pretty sure he was replying to the other ceefax the cat, not the first one surely

Actually funny story actually I decided to take the challenge given by Real Sociedad board and was able to keep my job. Got 11 points out of needed 9 in 5 games. All using my new 4-4-2 tactic. Will definitely have to write more about it. Early on it already seems like a good one. Just love my Basque save too much.

I dont use match plans.

The game has been like this for a few years now. If you want a proper challenge and actually a save that keeps you interested for more than just two seasons then you play system that is not ultra pressing, balls to the wall geggenpress with 6-7 attack duties. You set up a balanced tactic that actually makes logical sense. But then you have to accept that you won't win every game. And maybe have to do quite a bit of micromanagement match to match and try to adapt to your opponents. It might not be the most efficient "meta-munchkin" way of playing but I find it fun and engaging. Plug and win geggenpress tactics do nothing for me because I don't just play this game to win trophies with Man City. I play it to actually learn something about tactics and football. And see what kind of crazy good wonderkids my club's "cantera" can develop.

Couldn't have said myself. Pragmatic Football has been the only football I have been playing for the past 3 versions of the game. It's often a struggle and involves alot game by game micro-management but makes winning so much more satisfying. And besides I love winning clinically with fewest possible goals conceeded.

When auto-resolving matches, which attributes on the Assistant Manager actually matter? I assume Tactical Knowledge and Motivation? Are there any other important ones?

The bizarro world of FM

Love it! Self-imposed house rules like this really immerse one in the save. I'm also a fan of old-style European competitions. You know the "Champions" Cup where you actually had to be domestic champion to compete. Will definitely have to look in this database. And once again thanks for the super helpful quality tactical post before. I'm rereading it again and getting a clearer picture on how to set up my 4-4-2. Wish I could book mark it for everyone to see better

Sorry about late response. Here is the skin: https://www.fmscout.com/a-sas-fm24-skin.html Gotta say it's a really nice skin. Along with Rensie's skin i think it's one of the best for FM24.

Those are some good rules of thumb I like the South Americans with Italian passport one! But do you find enough like that? Especially among the newgens? My transfer rule with Real Sociedad has been similar to what Athletic Bilbao implements meaning I can only use Basque players from my own academy or other Basque players from other clubs. But I do give exception to any newgen that comes through my own "canters"/academy. Sometimes I get some unique ones like this exceptional Belgian keeper that graduated in 2nd season.

Also I just wanted to thank every one of you for participating and contributing to this thread I found theorizing about a "simpler" formation and reading through all the replies has actually been a rather grounding zen-like experience. When I decided to write about this subject I was in a weird headspace where I felt very lost on what I wanted out of the game, tactically ect. And I had a bit of falling out with the style I was using before this. Not getting a lot of satisfaction from it especially because the feedback from the boardroom hasn't been the best (I missed out on Champions League spot by one point and thus was given an ultimatum to win 9 points in my next 5 games in my Real Sociedad save ). Now I'm at a bit of a crossroads having created two splitting saves: one where I accept the ultimatum and fight for my job next season, and one where I refuse and perhaps accept the Leeds job, or even go back to my Braga save. Except I really love my Basque save. I think I actually find it hard to manage without the Basque players limitation (self-imposed in Sociedad's case). I guess there is just something comforting about having a limit on who you can scout and sign. Things just become too chaotic and stressful for me without such a transfer limit. I would never be happy with the players I already have and just keep chasing the next best replacement. At least that's how it's been in previous FM saves before I fell in love with Basque region. I guess my experience with tactics has been similar. I was always chasing the next best tactic. They have been getting more and more complicated. Needlessly so. Until I realized that I wasn't having fun. So this is where I got the idea to go to something "simpler", a good old 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 maybe. And have to say so far it's been a rather liberating experience! Although I'm still working hard on trying to simplify things by limiting the number of instructions and exotic player roles. Old habits die hard I guess haha.

If you dig deep there is actually quite a few good threads about these old system's such as ones used by Paisley, Fagan ect. And i very much agree with @Robson 07 Clough's Forest would fall into that same category of more fluid 4-4-2. Another thread that inspired me was one from 2009! It talks about sliders 😱 but the general ideas are still good. I really don't miss pre-FM14 sliders though haha. Not sure if @redmark is still around but I really liked his breakdown of Paisley's team. Going back to your comment @irish kopite however, I also find the tempo changes to be difficult to set up in FM. I mean an obvious easy one is how counterattack happens but that's mostly automatic, the players are programmed to go into attacking overdrive when a turnover happens in a specific part of the pitch. Adding the "counter" instruction I believe decreases this threshold but it still dependent on a specific algorithm such opposition loosing possession in your own half and certain number of players being there. But you can basically go from playing patient possession game to total attack in a blink. Unfortunately outside of counters, tempo changes like that are tricky. One idea I had is maybe 🤔 putting players with "dictate the play" at certain strategic spots in formation. Like one in DM strata and one in AM? Not sure whether that makes any sense or whether my four hour coffee deprivation is starting to catch up to me

It's pretty much how it looks. The only thing is that right fullback would probably need "get further forward" if the player does not have that as a trait.

A tactic after my heart Really love the balanced roles and TIs. Glad to see this style succeeding in the game. None of the usual boring meta nonsense we see all the time like "oh look my tactic is the best tactic at winning everything!" with ultra high defensive line and LOE, counterpress, max pressing and 4-5 attack duties on aggressive team mentality and a 1st team filled with popular shortlist wonderkids . I'm actually trying to develop something similar right now. A balanced 4-2-3-1 so some good ideas here 👍.

Master of The Art of Football Pragmatism Seeing the latest news that Jose Mourinho has been sacked by AS Roma owners, has got me thinking. I don’t think “Pragmatic” managers are as much appreciated in football as they should be. Specifically in Jose’s case he was very much loved by Roma fans because he managed to achieve some pretty great things (winning Europa Conference title in 2022 and becoming runner-up for Europa League in 2023) with a club which previously was going through the biggest slump in its long history. Sure they have had less than great results in Serie A this season (sitting in 8th position as of writing this) but then one must surely take into account that Italian Serie A has been among the most competitive European football leagues with 4 different clubs winning the title in as many years. And yet Mourinho’s Roma has achieved some pretty interesting statistics such as being amongst the teams with least league goals conceded. Unfortunately, also in his 96 games with AS Roma Mourinho’s team has also become the Roma side with the least points per game ratio (1.61). This just shows what kind of coach Mourinho has always been. Not one who is overly reckless or aggressive in his tactics or one who is too concerned with style. In fact he has always been a very pragmatic manager whose only concern is winning each game (and one goal difference is usually all it takes) and not to create a flashy show. Even the latest European disappointment where Roma came up short in Europa Final was a match that hinged on a single goal! Roma were one penalty goal away from walking away as victors. But that is the fickle nature of football and sports in general. I just wish that club owners were less fickle sometimes. Where am I going with this you may ask? I guess I wanted to use an example of one pragmatic manager to highlight another Master of The Art of Football Pragmatism. Ernesto Valverde whose management of Athletic Bilbao has been stellar to say the least. The Basque manager has always been very consistent over the last two seasons with Athletic Club. But again due to the nature (or lack of style of you will) of football that he has his team playing he has not been getting the attention and praise that he deserves. It’s also interesting in the context of FM24 because I think it’s a tactical system that can be translated into the game rather well. Especially in this year’s version of FM which had a lot attention given to Positional Play. Athletic is not a side that plays flashy possession football like Man City or Barcelona but instead implements an interesting pragmatic style that blends directness with smart role rotations and gives much-needed purpose to possession. Even more interestingly, Valverde’s tactics change from game to game (as is the case with most pragmatic managers) to adapt to the opposition. Even his often-used 4-2-3-1 formation is a hybrid one that plays differently in possession and looks more like a 433 during attack. Ernesto Valverde - The perfect image of managerial intensity. Valverde’s tactical flexibility and willingness to adjust the way his team plays against each opponent is only one side of Football Pragmatism. At Athletic Club this is reflected in how he has his side play with “controlled directness”. Despite using the same 4-2-3-1 for most matches, the team will play very differently depending on the opponent. They tend to take a more possession-dominant approach and try to control the match when faced with weaker opponent who sit back and defend more. On the other hand Athletic Club switch to a more defensive/direct strategy against a superior possession-hungry team like Barcelona. A perfect example was the way Bilbao dismantled the Catalan side during last week’s Copa Del Ray Quarter Finals. The other side of pragmatism, and what made Valverde so successful not just at Bilbao but at other clubs like Olympiacos, is the manager’s ability to work with and get the best out of limited personnel. At Olympiakos it was making a club from a lower level league competitive in the Champions League. While at Athletic Club this is due to their famous policy to only using players from the Basque country. Furthermore, Ernesto likes to use mostly the same First XI at Athletic Club. Within his smart and flexible tactic, they have been thriving. Ernesto Valverde’s pragmatism is a perfect fit at Athletic Bilbao. It seems like a match made in heaven and it is. Valverde’s reserved and balanced approach to football as well as his ability to get the best results from rather limited resources is what led him to manage in Bilbao on 4 occasions now. And with him at the helm the club has been reaching Continental football qualification spots more consistently than ever before. Defend Like A 4-4-2 Out of possession Athletic Club tend to defend in a compact 4-4-2 midblock. Here you have wingers dropping back and the attacking midfielder pushing up alongside the striker. The two banks of four has historically been one of the most reliable defensive strategies. Not only does it provide coverage across the whole width of the pitch but is also very centrally compact (especially with the “play narrow” instruction). Additionally, Athletic Club is perfectly suited to this formation because most of their wide attacking players possess high work rate attributes (at least 14 or more). The 4-4-2 shape allows Athletic Bilbao to have key moments of ball control (in midfield) even in matches where they are not expected to dominate overall possession. It is a perfect basis for fluid counter-attacking. So even if the opponent has more of the ball, it is where they have it that matters more. Athletic Bilbao can win if their opponent cannot create anything centrally and is rather restricted to trying low-percent chances from the wings (that Copa Del Ray game against Barcelona being the perfect example). By tempting the opponents to send the ball out wide, Bilbao’s hard-working wide players can then close them down against the touchline. While Bilbao does not press high, they do tend to win the ball back in advanced wide areas. The Fast Transition Phase Winning the ball high up the field is one thing, but it is of no use if such advanced turnovers don’t lead to quality chances created during transition phase. Bilbao’s 4-4-2 defensive shape acts as an important springboard which makes Valverde’s Basque side so dangerous in attacking transitions. Basically as soon as Bilbao lose possession, their wingers run forward through the channels between the opposition fullback and the centreback. In turn, the central striker attempts to run in behind the defence. At the same time, the attacking midfielder (usually the club icon Munian) looks to find pockets of space between the lines to receive the ball. Munian’s off the ball, quickness, passing and vision are key here. For as soon as he gets on the ball, at least three attacking outlets, via the striker and the two wingers, become open as his passing options. The speed and, even more importantly, off the ball movement ability of these attackers, is what makes the tactic so dangerous during the transition phase. Their movement also helps in dragging the defenders apart and create more open spaces for Bibao players to exploit. Bilbao During Possession Although Athletic Club’s formation is usually a type of 4-2-3-1 on paper, the team essentially turns into a 4-3-3 while in possession. When playing against inferior or equal strength sides, Bilbao tend to dominate possession. But it’s not all about higher possession numbers. What allows them to break down even the most staunch defensive sides is the sweet combination of attacking movements and wingplay afforded by their hybrid shape. The strength of Valverde’s tactic is really in creating and exploiting space smartly through both wide and half-space channel movements. The two midfielders (the AMC and right DM Volante) are both instrumental in this. These two attack-focused midfielders are granted the most positional freedom, to push forward, and generally roam around and pop up in areas where they are least expected. In an above video, you can clearly see how Bilbao can rapidly create an overload on one flank while at the same time flooding the opposition box with bodies to finish off any resulting chances. The RCM (or DM really because Bilbao’s midfielders tend to sit rather deep) Oihan Sancet is also very capable of exploiting the gaps that appear due to his good off the ball ability and acceleration. The combination of advanced and deep runners is utilized very well in Bilbao’s formation. Thanks to the positional play rotation changes in FM24, the movements of AMC, SV are much more intelligent and complimentary. As the Segundo Volante makes his late forward run, the AMC will move aside to open a channel. This behavior will free up SV to push up alongside AMC and essentially become a second number 10 role. Because of this Bilbao’s hybrid 4-3-3 (or 4-1-4-1 to be more precise) in possession and attack can be recreated in the game. The two fullbacks are encourages to run forward (both have “gets forward” trait in the game) but they usually do this via late timed runs rather than then aggressive overlapping movements. Instead you see the wingers acting as the main width generators by staying high and wide. They do so in a rather free, open fashion and are not constrained by typical winger behavior of only dribbling and crossing. Rather when the ball is on his side the near-side winger will hug the touchline while his far-side partner will move a little inwards to become better available to passes from the midfield. This only happens in the final third though. Such behavior is a bit more tricky to recreate in-game but perhaps an IW or WM roles could work. I believe that these two roles are better suited to represent such complex movement than either the standard Winger or Inside Forward (which might start cutting in too early). The central striker behavior is a bit harder to narrow down as we often see Inaki Williams (who is often the main striker) drifting wide or even dropping deep. I think either a simple Pressing Forward (A) or perhaps DLF (A) with added roam more instruction would be a good way to represent such movements. The reason we see the natural winger Inaki Williams selected as the primary striker is probably due to his key attribute strengths – Acceleration, Pace and Workrate which would indeed make him into a great Pressing Forward. As you can see in the set-up of roles and instructions, Bilbao’s attack is focused through the centre of the pitch (due to the concentration of attack duties there) while the wings provide support and work in tandem with fullbacks to create overloads and defend wide. This set-up embodies the “controlled directness” of Valverde’s tactic while staying away from pure Route One “cross and hope for the best” football. When the team is a heavy favourite and the opposition is expected to sit back in a parked bus then adding work into box, slowing down tempo and making passing shorter would be more suited. These instructions would aid in keeping possession away from opposition defenders (who are trying to waste time anyway) as well as generate more chances through carefully working the ball into final third. Some of the roles or duties could also be altered to better control possession. Switching SV from Attack to Support duty for one, or giving the front striker a supporting role. At the end of the day, to be a good pragmatic Defence-First manager in the vein of Mourinho and Valverde one must not shy away from changing the changing the game plan. It’s rather amazing how a simple 4-2-3-1 can be so flexible so as to play direct forward-moving football in one match and the more patient controlled possession in another. All with a simple change in a few roles and instructions.

Very nice analysis mate! Much appreciated 👍 A lot of tactical food for thought and quite a few elements that I also agree on in my own attempt to emulate this style.

I agree with @NineCloudNine the greater defensive availability of deeper positioned wide players is my preferred variant over the other variant which is more of the Brazilian style 4-4-2 (4-2-4 really). And in my opinion the midfielders in 442 are naturally DMs - positioned deeper in defensive phase and moving up during attack. Keep in mind that the formation you set up initially reflects the defensive positioning of players. But basically as @NineCloudNine also said there is no DM and CM strata distinction in real life 442.

Haha he even put the BPD on the same side. Didn't even try to make it a little different. Oh well, hopefully it will give them the views that their site is so desperate to get.

Interesting analysis! I actually stopped using POOD altogether this year because I found that it caused more problems than it solved. I still like my team's to play predominantly pass and move style where they start the build up patiently from keeper to central defenders or fullbacks up through the midfield. To achieve this now I generally use combination of instructions and roles. For example you can instruct your keeper to only throw the ball to make it much less likely that he will boot the ball stupidly up towards our strikers. Also if you have a BPD role or Libero then it becomes even more likely that your keeper will target these players with a pass first. With POOD what usually happens is that it causes your defenders and DMs to drop deeper and if anything to take too much time passing the ball backwards. When playing against a superior team that's hard pressing your defensive line this could prove very risky.

Yeah going back to Braga was like putting on an old glove. I loved that save because it felt very satisfying to take a small club and do something great with it. Total Football on a budget. So it was easy to go back for that reason. Yeah naturally 442 won't create the triangles the same way 433 does. But definitely I noticed that having runners and passers that are more willing to engage in one-two passes creates a similar effect of progressing the ball up from defence. 442 has not usually been associated with possession football but what I'm seeing in my half dozen friendly matches so far speaks differently Also managed to easily beat Boa Vista with 3-0 score yesterday. Some really nice team goals. So hopefully a sign that it's not just "friendly match" effect.

Nope. Just those I mentioned.

Not a bad start

Tactical Update: Importance of Attributes and Traits in recreating Liverpool's vintage "Pass-and-Move" 4-4-2 So for purpose of testing this tactic I went back to one of my older Total Football saves, actually one from FM23 which I transferred to FM24. Why? I realized that to recreate Liverpool's "Pass-and-Move" style I would need some pretty technical players. Total Footballers if you will. Also ones with one specific trait. And my 1st Team at Braga just happened to have plenty of technical footballers with this trait. Afterall it was my Total Football on a budget experiment. The trait in question is none other than "Plays One-Twos" For those interested, the handy little video below actually explains what one-two pass, move strategy entails in real-life football. If you play football outside of the FM game then you already know that one-twos are nifty strategy that almost everyone learns once you reach a certain level in the sport. But what does it mean to "play one-twos" in FM24. In the game, much like in real football it is when a player passes short to a teammate before making a forward run into space with the intention of quickly receiving the ball and perhaps making another one-two attempt. All the way until opposition goal hopefully. It is a useful strategy to move the ball quickly and efficiently through even the most stubborn opposition defences. Especially when those opponents are not leaving a lot of space for you to run into. Thus, playing one-twos is a perfect way to break down parked buses, provided you have the right players and the right formation set-up. Which brings me back to that old Braga save. I remembered having trained one-two trait to pretty much the whole attacking side of my "Arsenalistas" squad. It was an eclectic collection of footballers (and 16 different nationalities!) that I amassed over 3 years of managing the Portuguese club. They were not a world-class but still a very capable, technical side. Back then I was trying to play Total Football 4-3-3 on a budget and managed 3 consecutive Top 3 finishes but got bored because couldn't break the Big Three's hold over the league. Well maybe a change of formation is in order? I tried to practice what I preach by including some of the concepts that I talked about in my "Defence-First" thread, particularly the importance of a deeper midfield line because of its better defensive solidity as well as proximity to the centrebacks which is needed for progressing the ball smoothly up the field. Keeping my midfielders in a deeper starting position also allows us to play around with riskier support duties on both roles (mind you my BWM is still individually told to "hold position"). Otherwise I also tried to keep the tactic as simple as possible from the team instructions perspective. So I only included the ones which I think will be necessary to achieving the "pass-and-move" style. The instructions can only do so much, and more often than not your players ignore them and just do their own thing. So that's why the other important side of tactic creation is including players with the right attributes and individual traits (PPMs) that are suitable to the football style you are looking to achieve. This is also the case in Liverpool's "Pass-and-Move" attacking possession football. Or whatever you want to call it. Vertical Tiki Taka before the word "Tiki Taka" even existed. Or English Total Football? Let's not beat around the bush Liverpool played a variant of Total Football back in late 1970s and early 80s. Shankly and Paisley were definitely inspired by the great Continental European sides of the time such as Ajax and Red Star Belgrade, sides which favoured ball possession above all else. But anyway, my point here is that you will need some pretty technical players to achieve Paisley's "Pass-and-Move" Football. Especially the players who will be consistently getting into opposition half during attack. In the tactic above, it's the two strikers, segundo volante and all four wide players. I forgot to mention that I have a few individual instructions on some roles to fine-tune their behavior a little. Specifically on BWM - "hold position", Wingback and Fullback - "stay wider", WM - "cut inside with the ball". Additionally my right fullback would also have "get further forward" instruction had he not already possess the trait to "get further forward". It goes without saying that all 6 of the players discussed above have successfully learned the "Plays One-Twos" trait (even the wingback and fullback). It helps that they are strong in the technical and mental attributes because this trait is quite demanding in its attribute requirements. To pull off the "one-two" passing movement (or even to be able to learn it in the fist place) a player will need a few specific attributes. As you can see above, my 1st choice for attacking WM is more than suited to play pass and move football. Nadim Bajrami is an example of a well-rounded "Total Footballer" whom I definitely want on my team. The highlighted attributes are the ones I deem necessary for "one-twos". Obviously Anticipation, Decisions and Off The Ball are included as they better allow your player to assess the space around him and make those key, perfectly-timed forward runs after having passed the ball to a teammate. In relation to the latter, good Teamwork, Passing, First Touch and Technique are required. Also while in motion and running forward to hopefully get on the end of the next pass in the series, it would greatly help for the player to have good physical attributes such as Acceleration, Agility and Pace. In a little side note on training (choice of that screenshot above was very intentional) I pretty much have all of my attack-oriented players individually training to improve their Attacking Movement. Wide Playmaker - key role in the tactic? Of course, having the "one-twos" trait on majority of your players is far from everything that you will need to achieve good pass and move strategy. You will still need a good balanced selection of roles to recreate the desired behaviour on the pitch. Specifically, the right mix of passers and runners is necessary. The selection of roles is rather meaningful here because I went specifically with either generic ones (like Fullback, WM) or specialist roles that don't have "dribble more" hardcoded into them (Wide Playmaker). It goes without saying that I want my players to concentrate on keeping the ball through passing it around rather then running with it. Especially because they are not world-class players and have little chance of beating Real Madrid players (or even Porto players) by dribbling against them. In my tactic above, I believe that I have selected a good combination of roles to achieve the desired "pass and move"-style 4-4-2. For example, keeping the main playmaker on the flank (at least in the beginning of the build-up) allows him to escape the opposition markers. Central playmakers whether in AM or CM or even DM positions tend to get marked out easily in FM24. For this reason I always loved the Wide Playmaker role for being the "dark horse" ace up your tactical sleeve. With the right player he can become the veritable fulcrum and the central cog around which your tactic will revolve. My main objective in the off-season is to bring in the young kid below. I suspect that he will become indispensable to the team once we retrain him into the left flank WP role. Also, as added bonus Slamet is Indonesian! It's very rare to see a great newgen from that region and I am more than happy to expand my multi-national squad. Once the WP is in the more central pitch location (to which he will invariably move during the build-up) a variety of passing options opens up to him. The natural progression is via segundo volante runner on the right. The SV will tend to make late timed runs into space and is also positioned in close proximity with another runner on the right flank - our WM. Basically the aim is to create a natural overload (due to the number of support duties and a playmaker) on the left side of the pitch while the ball can be progressed vertically by the two runners on the right flank (I even considered making my fullback into an attack duty one but hesitated since I'm not sure whether I want him to be crossing the ball at every opportunity or to leave my right flank too exposed). My Romanian DLF wonderkid Copot-Barb should further help the right side to progress up into attack by dropping deep (I am also training him to "come deep to get the ball" to further enhance his role's natural behavior) and participate in the one-twos progression with either SV or WM or even the overlapping fullback. Of course this is still mostly theoretical (although I recall having very good experience with training and using "one-twos" in previous versions of FM). But at least now that I have the right players. All that remains is testing the tactic. And I also leave it up to other thread participants to share what their experience with the "One-Twos" has been like in other similar systems in FM. Thanks for reading and Happy Managing!