Defensive Line- What the hell does it actually do, and how does it work?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by big daddy:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lameris:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by supersaint:

What you say about pairing the D-L and CD didnt work for me, because the players were dragged all over the pitch, leaving huge gaps behind them.

If you're talking high d-line and high CD, this makes sense to me. But is this is this also the case with low d-line and low CD? My assumption was that with low CD, the defenders should wait longer before attacking an opponent, thus staying in position instead of being dragged around the pitch.

When playing at home with a high(er) d-line, maybe I should try and link the midfielders' CD to the D-line, so they try and do the dirty work, leaving the defence in position? This would mean that CD is low for defenders at all times though, both home and away. (Don't know if that is a bad thing though.) Any of the tacticians have ideas about this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You wouldn´t want a ronaldinho getting a free shot at goal in real life , that´s what you get if you play a deep defence with low cd,

he would score a hattrick every game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get that problem because the DMC would deal with him.

And that's where the DMC comes in IMO.

Having a DMC with defensive mentality and high CD playing before a low d-line with low CD should help against the long shots-thing, right?

Spot on, atleast in my games this is how it works.

In theory yes, but in practice not always - because the DMC often wants to close down players that aint dangerous, they can suddenly decide that they want to track down i.e. a winger and leave the space in front of the area open.

Which annoys the H... out of me

I've got 2 DMC's, one does this, the other doesn't. So id say its a player stats issue. The one who closes down wingers is the better player too on stats, but for some reason he just doesn't work. I think hic decisions are too good for how I want him to play

I feel there are 2 types of defensive midfielders you can use. The first is the Makalele type, who doesn't really close down all over the place but does hold a position in front of his 2 centrebacks to stop throughballs and people running at the last line through the middle. For this type of player you need lower closing down and works better with a deeper defensive line as it stops the opposition players getting 30 yard shots at goal from central areas.

The other type is the Sissoko type defensive midfielder. He tries to win the ball higher up the pitch and covers just about all of the area in front of the defence rather than concentrating on the central area. This works better with a higher defensive line where you want to really press the ball and harrass the opposition.

I agree, although sometimes a players personality can play a part in what you have toa ctually do, like I mentioned above.

It could very well be like that. I think that getting the D-L right to suit the spesific way you want to play, can be extremely frustrating. I like to defend deep but with high pressure midfield, including the DMC. And this of course could be one of the reasons that my DMC all the time gets dragged out of position, leaving space behind him. But if it is like you say, this means I have to raise my D-L, to suit the pressing midfield.

I play a deep line with high pressing DMC and midfield. Just experiment with a differnt DMC and see if you have 2 different types of players like I do.

If you remember Scramjet...its got the same shape. But yes, i'm a bit disappointed with its goal scoring rate..we do create chances, but we score something like 1.8 per game.

Sorry ive not been back about Scramjet yet, still got the kids here so im tied for time atm. However I changed the attack on the version you sent me, to simliar to what I used in the WM and it increased the goals by about 1.2 per game.

My 424 scores on average 3.0, but it does concede goals, more than Scramjet II. But I believe the reason why my 343 is not pounding in the goals is simply because I don't have a good targetman upfront. Secondly, there is a bug in the matchengine, where strikers fail to orientate themselves with the far and near post before they take a shot. That explains some really bizarre attmepts.

This could be the reason why it works for me and not you atm, as I run a different version. Be intereststing to see what you think after the patch. Im sure attacking wise, you will be more than happy. I think you can get Scramjet to score on average around 3.4 goals a game easily with the right type of players upfront.

Am i to understand that 1 is the goalline and 20 is the halfway line?

Id say so yes

[supersaint]

Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In theory yes, but in practice not always - because the DMC often wants to close down players that aint dangerous, they can suddenly decide that they want to track down i.e. a winger and leave the space in front of the area open.

Which annoys the H... out of me

I've got 2 DMC's, one does this, the other doesn't. So id say its a player stats issue. The one who closes down wingers is the better player too on stats, but for some reason he just doesn't work. I think hic decisions are too good for how I want him to play

It could very well be like that. I think that getting the D-L right to suit the spesific way you want to play, can be extremely frustrating. I like to defend deep but with high pressure midfield, including the DMC. And this of course could be one of the reasons that my DMC all the time gets dragged out of position, leaving space behind him. But if it is like you say, this means I have to raise my D-L, to suit the pressing midfield.

I play a deep line with high pressing DMC and midfield. Just experiment with a differnt DMC and see if you have 2 different types of players like I do.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that Cleon. My problem is that Im stubborn as Ive always been The players should listen to what I think, not what I say(or set in tactics) - Footballers shouldnt be allowe to use their brains

But it seems like Im gonna have to start take their stats more seriously now... or perhaps start to buy players that really fit my tactics

I got bored of Leeds, because of the lack of money and players willing to come to the club. Even after two successfull seasons in PL, I had a mediocre Championship squad. So I resigned and took the job at Forest in League Two, who was placed 19th after 24 matches.

I decided to go for a 1-2-4-2-1 formation, since that was what suited the squad best.

So I decided to go for some of the advices here about the D-L, combined with my own theories. I made one attacking tactic with a D-L of 13 and a defensive one with a D-L of 7.

Allthough the season went well (3rd placed), Im still abit unsure how high you should or could play when you play a flat midfield. Like Rashidi said, you should play a normal line when having a flat midfield. But what would you call a normal line? The same as the text(7-14) says, or more close to 10?

[Noel Gallagher]

The defensive line......

I have started to notice that setting it to 1 means that your back line sat virtually in front of their penalty area, then when you set it to 20, they are almost on the half way line. This is when you're not in posession of the ball.

I've been experimenting with a DLine between 8 & 12. I don't think my problem is with DLine, I think I'm having issues with mentalities. A deep DLine with a DM is definitely the way to go in terms of keeping clean sheets.

Cleon, in the build of the game you've got, is there a more noticeable effect in terms of players positioning in a formation when you change their individual mentality?

[Noel Gallagher]

Supersaint, If you play a flat midfield you just need to gradually adjust the DLine until you think there's not too much of a gap between your Defence & Midfield. Failing that, you could always give a defensive mentality to a central midfielder so that he plays slightly behind the rest of them?

[supersaint]

Originally posted by Noel Gallagher:

Supersaint, If you play a flat midfield you just need to gradually adjust the DLine until you think there's not too much of a gap between your Defence & Midfield. Failing that, you could always give a defensive mentality to a central midfielder so that he plays slightly behind the rest of them?

Yeah I know. I was just curious what others think a "normal" D-L in the game is.

[Guest]

Rashidi after reading your post in the other thread regarding the 3 strikers FL FC FR with sarrows I decided that I would have a go at trying to create a 433 for my underacheiving Bristol City and what an amazing turn around it had after 20 games I had won 16 drawing 2 and losing just twice.

Away from home it has won all 9 games scoring 2.4% and conceding just 0.6%. For some reason it is much stronger away than it is at home with the only changes I have at home is increasing the D Line by 3 (13) and increasing the players mentality by 2. I also have increased the CF by 2 and decreased the CD by 3 in correlation to the D Line.

When I have time I will make a thread regarding the 433 formation with all player team instructions as I feel that this is a pretty solid tactic that concedes few goals and scores a good ratio but I am sure that it can be improved immensley.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by supersaint:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Noel Gallagher:

Supersaint, If you play a flat midfield you just need to gradually adjust the DLine until you think there's not too much of a gap between your Defence & Midfield. Failing that, you could always give a defensive mentality to a central midfielder so that he plays slightly behind the rest of them?

Yeah I know. I was just curious what others think a "normal" D-L in the game is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Id say for me a normal D-Line is 7, I think 10 is more to end of the norm D-line like the slider indicates. I know thats pretty obvious, but I really think it is that simple.

Away from home it has won all 9 games scoring 2.4% and conceding just 0.6%. For some reason it is much stronger away than it is at home with the only changes I have at home is increasing the D Line by 3 (13) and increasing the players mentality by 2. I also have increased the CF by 2 and decreased the CD by 3 in correlation to the D Line.

When I have time I will make a thread regarding the 433 formation with all player team instructions as I feel that this is a pretty solid tactic that concedes few goals and scores a good ratio but I am sure that it can be improved immensley.

I look forward to the thread, as I might be able to help you with the home form

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by Noel Gallagher:

Supersaint, If you play a flat midfield you just need to gradually adjust the DLine until you think there's not too much of a gap between your Defence & Midfield. Failing that, you could always give a defensive mentality to a central midfielder so that he plays slightly behind the rest of them?

That's what I do with my 424

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by supersaint:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Noel Gallagher:

Supersaint, If you play a flat midfield you just need to gradually adjust the DLine until you think there's not too much of a gap between your Defence & Midfield. Failing that, you could always give a defensive mentality to a central midfielder so that he plays slightly behind the rest of them?

Yeah I know. I was just curious what others think a "normal" D-L in the game is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For me a normal DL is actually 10. Depending on the mentalities of my midfield buncb, if I have one of them set at 6-8 which is possible, then I adjust my DL and bring it down lower. But i will watch the 2D to see that the DC and MC don't go for the same ball in midfield.

[Rashidi]

Guys when the patch comes out, I think those guys with solid tactics are going to start banging in the goals.

[Finknottle]

At the risk of being pedantic, I notice that bob has asked the same question as myself and with the same result. No reply. On the slider does 1 put the defensive line on the goal line and 20 put it on the half way line? If not then where does 1 put the defensive line?

It is no use people saying that they use a deep defensive line if the perceptions of a deep defensive lines starting point are not the same. Again, as for myself, I am rightly or wrongly, assuming that 1 is on the goaline and that 20 is on the half way line.

I would ask someone with inside knowledge of the game, "mods" or someone from SI to clarify the situation. I first put this question forward about 10 days or so ago. I have still to get a definitve reply. Likewise for bob on this topic and I am sure there may well be others. Kind regards.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by oescus:

At the risk of being pedantic, I notice that bob has asked the same question as myself and with the same result. No reply. On the slider does 1 put the defensive line on the goal line and 20 put it on the half way line? If not then where does 1 put the defensive line?

It is no use people saying that they use a deep defensive line if the perceptions of a deep defensive lines starting point are not the same. Again, as for myself, I am rightly or wrongly, assuming that 1 is on the goaline and that 20 is on the half way line.

I would ask someone with inside knowledge of the game, "mods" or someone from SI to clarify the situation. I first put this question forward about 10 days or so ago. I have still to get a definitve reply. Likewise for bob on this topic and I am sure there may well be others. Kind regards.

As i said previous page, 1 is the goalline for me and 20 the halfway line.

[Noel Gallagher]

I would say 7, 8 & 9 are normal but slightly deep. 10 & 11, normal and 12, 13 & 14 normal with an element of pushing up. If you have slow defenders play between 7 & 9, if your defenders are quick play between 12 & 14.

[Noel Gallagher]

One other thing I would like to add. 7 - 14 is classed as normal, which we all know already. And the definition of normal is that your players will hold a consistent position on the pitch in relation to where the ball is.

So, if you set a defensive line of 4, and you weren't playing with a DMC, then you would have a huge gap between your defence and midfield as they would be playing very deep.

Now, if you played a DLine between 7 & 9, they would still play a bit deeper, but their position would still be in relation to where the ball was on the pitch as any of these settings are classed as normal. So in theory, there shouldn't be as big a gap between defence and midfield.

If you played a DLine between 12 & 14, the defence would push up slightly more to squeeze the play. But instead of pushing right up, it would still be in relation to where the ball is on the pitch as 12 - 14 is classed as normal.

[Finknottle]

My thanks to Cleon, I completely overlooked the part of your post indicating the 1 - 20 defensive line. The posts of Noel Gallagher have raised some interesting points.

For what it is worth, I began by using 10 for absolute normal and have, at the minute, a line on 8 and playing a DMC. I am trying to work out how to post my screenshots but as I am not pc literate, I am finding it somewhat difficult. Kind regards to all.

[wwfan]

In TT&F there are two concurrent theories on the d-line. One is based on mirroring (d-line + Closing Down = 20), the other on paralleling (d-line = Closing Down). I still think it is a littole more complex than this. You need to take into consideration variables such as passing style (i.e. a deep d-line needs a direct style to counterbalance the distance between the midfield and the defence) and pace (a high d-line is vulnerable to pace so needs quick defenders). I still like the idea of playing a high d-line away and a deep one at home, as one minimises space and the other maximises it. However, the game manual seems to argue against this and suggests a high d-line will pin defensive opposition into their own half. So, no further in terms of definition? Well, yes and no...

I can tell you what it doesn't do!

It doesn't link to midfield mentalities as it did in '06. Asmo's classic 5x5 theory stopped the FCs becoming too isolated from the defenders by matching their mentality with the height of the d-line. RoT copied this by matching the d-line with the MCa/AMC mentality. This no longer works, and the attackers seem to remain isolated no matter where you set the d-line. However, the manual says d-line is partially linked to mentality.

It is...and you need to be aware of this when setting up your system. Do not set a deep d-line with a high mentality system, or a high one with low mentalities. Try and match them to an extent whilst bearing in mind defenders' capabilities. However, wherever you set it, it will not stop your FCs becoming isolated. The only way to do that is to stop one of the FCs making forward runs. An FC who stays deep compacts the formation and, if set to hold up ball, gives all the players and the d-line time to get into position. Then the team can move up the pitch as a unit. This stops the AI from exploiting the space behind the d-line as it struggles to catch up with a direct ball to a high FWRs FC just in time for him to lose possession as there is no one to play the ball to. It then gets turned by an attacker breaking in the opposite direction.

In conclusion, d-line needs to match mentality (to an extent), be aware of defensive limitations and relies on players (FCs in fast tempo, direct games, possibly MCd in slower games) holding up the ball so it can catch up with the team once possession is gained. High forward runs for front players stop that from happening, and put the d-line under intensive pressure. The d-line CANNOT function effectively without attackers who give it time to move up the pitch. Tweak FWRs up front, and you should see a huge difference in d-line, and team, performance.

[Gabi80]

rashidi

In your 424 d-line is 10?

[Rashidi]

In my 424 my dline is 8

[Gabi80]

do you use for your DCs this seetings:

1. dc - m8 cd 4

2. dc m6 cd 6

And dou you think when i played with d-line 7 should i play with high tempo and direct passing. ( i know, deep d-line, tackling and fast counter attack.) Thanx for answer, sorry for english

[Asmodeus]

Originally posted by Asmodeus:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Asmodeus:

I've always thought that nonleague- your team always seems to defend narrow, irrespective of width.

I was always under the impression that the Width reffered to how your team plays as a unit whether it be attacking or defensing due to there being only one universal slider but now after tinkering around and taking a few screenshot pics it shows that when we have the ball depending the width I select is to how wide my team will go but when not in position they all seem to regroup into there natural position.

It's just that nobody has ever pointed this out and im sure this will be useful information to many people as no I have a better understanding with that particular slider.

I do have one query regarding the D Line which has got me wondering if 1 = the Goal Line and 20 = The half way line how come when my team is not in possession and I have selected D Line 1 my team do not drop all the way back to the goal line and if I were to select 20 and the opposition were to attack my defence does not stay on the Half way line?

I do agree with what Cleon said about the D Line only takes effect when your team does not have possession but am not convinced enough about the 1-20 half way line goal line conclusion. I think it works in a similar way but I think its alot more complicated than that.

For example lets say I chose 20 as my D Line and the opposition are in possession of the ball 1/3 into my half where does this mean my D Line is placed? I am finding it hard to get my point across with text but I hope you get the jist of what Im trying to say.

I feel that the D Line is working in correlation to the Mentality set up of the defensive player who is the closest to our goal line therfore the 1-20 is dictated by that in a compact way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you tried playing with a sweeper?

Perhaps the goal/line half-way theory reflects the position of the deepest line of your team (in the case of a back four- DR, DC, DC, DR).

If team mentality/width means the pitch is loosely 20x20; then would defensive line be a sub-divider between the GK, DC and MC positions?

Perhaps a global mentality of 1 with 1 for defensive line might be worthwhile testing. If you were playing an attacking style with deepest d-line would the defence drop deep in relation to the pitch or the rest of the team itself? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any thoughts?

[Guest]

Im still thinking that one over at the moment but still my thinking is that the D Line is not actually working due to the way I tested it earlier. (My post is in TTF)

If it was to work then it would work in relation to your last player for example say your Sweeper so whatever line he holds then that is the line that the other defenders too shall hold. D Line is for the Back Line I cannot see it relating to the midfield unless of course it has been programmed that when not in possession the whole team as a unit drops back by how many notches you have clicked on the D Line slider.

Example you Set D Line as 8 then your Midfield will drop back 12 notches its the only way I can see it working if it was encorporating the rest of the team although I cannot really see this as otherwise it would mean if you set it at 1 that the midfield will have dropped back a whopping 19 notches which seems ridiculous to me.

So unless there is another mathematical explanation (maybe they divide the slider x2 etc) then I have no clue. But like I said I really do not think that the D Line is actually working I think the game has alot more to do with Mentality, Closing Down and Width.

I have also noticed that Time Wasting does sod all until the last 10-15 mins so this slider is irelevant until then and as for tempo I am going to test this but on an initial test it really did not seem to any effect whatsoever on my players to shift the ball around any quicker or slower.

[lozpawley]

Just on the relationship between DLine and DMCs... i'm playing a Dline of 6, no DMC, and 4 across the middle. Of my two central midfielders, one has mentality 8, a barrow, hard tackling, lowish closing down, passing 6 (compared to 11 for the majority of the team), and hold up ball. The other has a mentality 10, farrow, closing down 16, hard tackling. This seems to work well, because the barrowed player (who has quite good decisions and generally high mental stats) will drop back quick when we lose the ball, and sit in front of the back 4 (Makelele style). the other MC- who needs high workate, pace, and stamina- bombs all over the pitch and wins a lot of ball high up in a Sissoko-style (i've got Vilakazi there at the moment in the Championship, he's immense at it). This way, you can hopefully get the benefits of both types of DMC (although one is obviously further up the pitch). In any case, i'm not conceding many goals, and working well with a counter-attacking 442.

[Asmodeus]

I always assumed that the defensive line slider was there to balance out discrepancies between the mentality of your defenders and the rest of the team. So, you could tell your defenders to play defensively, but within certain parameters- balanced with the d-line setting. If you wanted to play with a team mentality of 15 (attacking), then you'd set the d-line to roughly the same , so they're not miles behind the rest of your side and leaving enormous gaps.

I know it clearly isn't the case anymore, but I feel the crucial change is the with/without ball factor. You could play with a high line in 2006 and not get caught out, whereas it seems far more risky in this new version.

I'm of the current thinking that with the ball the entire team moves forward to their relevant team mentality setting, including the defence.

Anyone with the manual to hand- am I correct in thinking it claims that you can also defend deep using defensive mentality? I'm sure it said something along those lines.

[Gabi80]

lozpawley

what is your team mentality and tempo?

[panomaniac]

My thinking on defensive line

To explain what I think of the defensive line setting I think it would help if I firstly described my thoughts on mentality. I believe mentality is based on positioning within their respective lines of team team. For example, a defender with mentality of 15 will NOT be more attacking than a striker with mentality of 10. Rather a mentality of 15 would make him an 'attack minded' defender and a mentality of 10 for a striker would make him a more 'defensive minded' or 'deeper dropping' striker.

I also believe that mentality between the lines of the team is important. For example a defence on mentality of 5 and a midfield on 15 would leave a relatively large gap between those lines. However, a mentality of 15 for fullbacks would not make them play ahead of a central midfielder on a 12 mentality, rather it would simply mean that these defenders would be pushed up enough to be quite close to the midfield.

Now onto defensive line...

In my opinion, defensive line works when your team doesn't have the ball, that's the first point.

Secondly, it refers to how deep your defenders drop in relation to the pitch.

Thirdly, it is linked to midfielders mentality when your team is not in possession, a large gap between defensive line and midfielder mentality will mean a larger gap will be left between these lines. That is why the SI manual suggests a DMC when playing a deep line, otherwise you would need to lower mentality for the other midfielders and as a result your team would be more defensive. The DMC allows for the other midfielders to still be fairly attacking without leaving a gap between defence and midfield.

They're my thoughts on defensive line based on what I've seen through observations of games being played in 'full match' mode. Pausing of matches was frequent and over time you notice just how defensive line settings affect a match.

Your thoughts? Agree or disagree, seen similar things in your game or have you seen the opposite!?

[Guest]

Originally posted by panomaniac:

My thinking on defensive line

To explain what I think of the defensive line setting I think it would help if I firstly described my thoughts on mentality. I believe mentality is based on positioning within their respective lines of team team. For example, a defender with mentality of 15 will NOT be more attacking than a striker with mentality of 10. Rather a mentality of 15 would make him an 'attack minded' defender and a mentality of 10 for a striker would make him a more 'defensive minded' or 'deeper dropping' striker.

I also believe that mentality between the lines of the team is important. For example a defence on mentality of 5 and a midfield on 15 would leave a relatively large gap between those lines. However, a mentality of 15 for fullbacks would not make them play ahead of a central midfielder on a 12 mentality, rather it would simply mean that these defenders would be pushed up enough to be quite close to the midfield.

Now onto defensive line...

In my opinion, defensive line works when your team doesn't have the ball, that's the first point.

Secondly, it refers to how deep your defenders drop in relation to the pitch.

Thirdly, it is linked to midfielders mentality when your team is not in possession, a large gap between defensive line and midfielder mentality will mean a larger gap will be left between these lines. That is why the SI manual suggests a DMC when playing a deep line, otherwise you would need to lower mentality for the other midfielders and as a result your team would be more defensive. The DMC allows for the other midfielders to still be fairly attacking without leaving a gap between defence and midfield.

They're my thoughts on defensive line based on what I've seen through observations of games being played in 'full match' mode. Pausing of matches was frequent and over time you notice just how defensive line settings affect a match.

Your thoughts? Agree or disagree, seen similar things in your game or have you seen the opposite!?

I have studied the D Line and no matter what the setting the defence fall back to the same spot. To me it does not seem to matter at all where you set the D Line as it is not working properly.

[Rashidi]

I agree more with panomaniac at the moment, I find that Dline has an effect on how the defense and midfield play when they don't have the ball. A high DL tends to make the two go for the same ball most of the time and a low DL seems to have the opposite effect. Mentality does have an effect but not on a team level. Mentality plays a role in how the defensive halve and the midfield halve play together. If the gap between the mid and def is high in terms of mentality then there is a lot of ball hoofing.

I do not mirror my Defensive Line to the mentality of the lowest placed CD, cos I don't really feel there's a need. Presently I'm able to make my team play the way I want them to simply by following 1 rule. If I use a DM its a low DL preferably on the highest setting of low. If I use my 424 then i set it to normal..smack in the centre..if I need to exert pressure...i push it to the highest notch of normal.

My goal in both tactics is to ensure that the most influential players are the DMC in a 4132 or the two MCs in a 424.

When playing with a barrowed MC I tend to set the DL to the last notch of deep and sometimes i do move it up but only as far as the mid notch of normal.

I use DL simply to allow my midfield and defense to play as one unit offensively and defensively. My 424 tactic now works fairly smoothly as I have managed to find the right balance in getting 6 players to defend and 6 players to attack.

[Guest]

Rashidi...

Can you try out the D Line at 20 and then at 1 and watch full match and tell me if you find anything different happen to the way your side plays. I have done this with my tactic and it does not make the slightest bit of difference.

Now if you were to try this out just for 1 or 2 matches I would appreciate it as you maybe able to explain what is actually going on. My observation on it was nothing changed and this also reflected in the stats.

[panomaniac]

Originally posted by nonleague:

Rashidi...

Can you try out the D Line at 20 and then at 1 and watch full match and tell me if you find anything different happen to the way your side plays. I have done this with my tactic and it does not make the slightest bit of difference.

Now if you were to try this out just for 1 or 2 matches I would appreciate it as you maybe able to explain what is actually going on. My observation on it was nothing changed and this also reflected in the stats.

Tried this just then mate, just so you know, other settings of my 4-4-2 tactic were left the same, such as high closing down (global), 14 mentality (global), low creative freedom, high width, fast tempo etc.

I definately noticed a pronounced difference in the distance between my defence and midfield when using the contrasting D-Lines, 1 and 20, with 1 creating a larger gap and 20 creating the smallest gap between DEF and MID lines.

When you say you see no difference in relation to where the D-Line sits when you have not got the ball then you must remember it would be better to compare this for a specific area that the opposition have the ball in. Eg, look where you defensive line is but only when the opposition has the ball in the same spot every time, this should give you a more accurate view of whether or not your D-Line does change position on the pitch. Granted doing this experiment takes time and for me little bits of paper sticky taped to the bottom of the screen lol.

For me I looked at where my D-Line was when the opposition had the ball on roughly the half way line. Didn't want it to be too high into their half as I wanted to allow my D-Line time to drop.

There was a difference in where my D-Line sat when the opposition had the ball roughly on the half way, when using the comparative settings of 1 and 20 for D-Line. Granted, it wasn't as large as you'd expect for 1-20 difference in slider position but it was still there and pronounced enough for me to observe.

Have you tried a similar experiment and when you say you notice no difference in D-Line position is it actually no difference or simply 'minimal' differences? Also are you looking at D-Line when the opposition has the ball in a similar area of the pitch as you may then notice more pronounced differences in D-Line position.

Look forward to hearing your response and any other little experiments you may have done which could prove otherwise....

[Rashidi]

I decided to go test something out. I have a 424 tactic and I beleve DL very much affects how you want your team to perform as a team defensively. DL settings affect the way you perform, a low DL sometimes puts too much pressure on yourself to go create chances because with the wrong formation it can be a bad thing. With a 442 or a 424 or any formation which does not use a DM, a low DL may adversely affect how you get your midfield to play. I decided to take up nonleagues request and go run one match 3 times, all things remaining the same. The tactic is a 424, played away from home, against oppositon we are not expected to beat. Team mentality is all out attack.

The goal of my tactic was to have 2 anchoring MCs, one is very much a destroyer his task is simply to break up play in the middle of the park and the other MC is also defensive, however he is given higher closing down instructions, his job is to be harrying further up the pitch much like an attacking player would. The defensive minded MC needs to be in a certain zone all the time.

In the formation, I expect the MCs to pretty much intercept and do a fair bit of defensive work, so that my central defenders load is lighter. I also expect there to be more possession on my end and the brunt of my goals must come from my wingers. They are the ones who are expected to be freed up to harass the opposition.

Based on nonleagues request, I set up a DL of 1, and sent the team forth. To my dismay, my MCs were now both getting their roles mixed up, the defensive MC was now passing a lot of balls around which I never expected him to do and a lot of them were punts. The other MC who was supposed to see the ball, hardly made any contribution except throw in late challenges. Now the DL was so deep that the linkage between my midfield and attack had failed. I had loads of possession, but no clear cut chances. My wingmen were out of it.

In the next experiment I decided to up the ante and set DL to 20. Now based on what I believe, I now expected to see that the defenders would up their tackle rate, since there were so high up. This time the whole team was involved in challenging for the ball. Everyone had tackles registered except for the strikers. The team was now so bunched up that my midfielders and defenders were both going for the same ball. My defenders were doing more tackling than the the midfielders, the goal of getting my MCs to be the primary destroyers had failed. But we did score 2 goals, both of the counter and with balls won in the opponents half. Looking at the stats of the MCs, although they did make loads of passes, being bunched up so tightly with a high DL did affect the efficiacy of my midfielders. The stars of this game were undoubtably my fullbacks and defenders.

The manual does not say that DL affects how your MCs play, but it does imply that a gap does open up between midfield and defense if the DL is too low, hence necessiating the use of a DM. So I decided to set up my DL at notch 10, which is the centre of normal I think. Once again I ran the same test. This time around I got the desired result I wanted. Remember my goal was simple, my left MC is a destroyer, my right MC will do a fair bit of TTBing and my wingers have to be the stars. This meant that some space is required, too low a DL and then gap becomes to far and too high a DL and I will hardly get the wingers into play since they will be bunched up as well. The goals will only come from high half pressure.

With a normal dline i was expecting to see my right midfielder perform the role he was set out for, to create passes while the left MC was there to break up plays. Both would do a fair amount of interceptions. The wingers were expected to be the main outlet and they were both garnering 9s. Both MCs did the job they were supposed to do, because the gap between the midfield and defense was not too high.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

DL1 DL 10 DL 20

Defensive MC

Passes 49/40 26/21/1 34/28/3

Tackles 5/3 13/12/1 4/3

Headers 7/5 0/0 4/4

Interceptions 9 9 3

MC

Passes 29/20 44/39/4 26/18/5

Tackles 8/5 6/3 5/4

Headers 0/0 4/3 4/4

Interceptions 1 6 3

</pre>

[Rashidi]

Oh sorry I forgot to mention that the score in the DL 1 game was 0-0 in the DL 20 games was 2-0 and the DL 10 game was 3-0.

Now as we all know this could be a one time thing, and I hardly would say this qualifies as a rule, its just an observation, and it basically governs how I design tactics.

[panomaniac]

Nice experiment rashidi.

I totally agree with you about how the D-Line affects the relationship between defence and midfield in both attacking and defensive situations. I saw similar things in my tests, albeit mine weren't as detailed as yours because I went by what I saw on the full match rather than remembering to look at the stats.

The one thing I'd like to know if you saw or not, what non-league and I eluded to earlier, how did the 1-20 D-Line ratings actually affect their positioning on the pitch for a given area where the opposition has the ball. Was there a major, normal or minor difference in positioning, if you noticed anything at all....

I noticed a difference, perhaps not as big as I expected considering the 1-20 slider difference.

[Rashidi]

I don't think there was a clear indication of where they stood vis a vis the ball, because I think there may be tweak coming our way wrt to mentality and positioning. So I base everything I say on the involvement between midfield and defense.

There were times when i could have sworn I saw something, but I am not absolutely certain. So I based mine on ingame stats themselves

[panomaniac]

Fair enough

[fg]

Originally posted by rashidi1:

Oh sorry I forgot to mention that the score in the DL 1 game was 0-0 in the DL 20 games was 2-0 and the DL 10 game was 3-0.

Now as we all know this could be a one time thing, and I hardly would say this qualifies as a rule, its just an observation, and it basically governs how I design tactics.

rashidi

do you use counter atack with your 424 with dl 10? And do you ticked tight marking?

[Guest]

Hi Rashidi thank you for doing this test and I think that we need to delve further into it as maybe we cannot take everything literally by the eye but where we can see the difference is in the stats like you said previously.

So I have had a look at your results for the 3 D Lines and here are the charts (I hope they come out correctly). i have not had time to take a look at them properly as I am off out in a bit but will do so tomorrow but from an initial glance it seems that your theory is correct although the data is only taken once from a certain D Line and would need to be further tested.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Player Pos DM MC DM MC DM MC

D Line Pass Att Pass Made Pass Key

1 49 29 40 20 0 0

10 26 44 21 39 1 4

20 34 26 28 18 3 0

-----------------------------------------------------------

DM MC DM MC DM MC

D Line Tack Att Tack Made Tack Key

1 5 8 3 5 0 0

10 13 6 12 3 1 0

20 4 5 3 4 0 0

-----------------------------------------------------------

DM MC DM MC DM MC

D Line Head Att Head Made Head Key

1 7 0 5 0 0 0

10 0 4 0 3 0 0

20 4 4 4 4 0 0 </pre>

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Defensive MC

Stat DL 1 DL 20 Diff from 1-20

Passes 49/40 34/28/3 -15/-12/+3

Tackles 5/3 4/3 -1/0

Headers 7/5 4/4 -3/-1

Interceptions 9 3 -6

MC

Stat DL 1 DL 20 Diff from 1-20

Passes 29/20 26/18 -3/-2

Tackles 8/5 5/4 -3/-1

Headers 0/0 4/4 +4/+4

Interceptions 1 3 +2

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Defensive MC

Stat DL 1 DL 10 Diff from 1-10

Passes 49/40 26/21/1 -23/-19/+1

Tackles 5/3 13/12/1 +8/+9/+1

Headers 7/5 0/0 -7/-5

Interceptions 9 9 0

MC

Stat DL 1 DL 10 Diff from 1-10

Passes 29/20 44/39/4 +15/+19/+4

Tackles 8/5 6/3 -2/-2

Headers 0/0 4/3 +4/+3

Interceptions 1 6 +5

---------------------------------------------------------------

Defensive MC

Stat DL 20 DL 10 Diff from 20-10

Passes 34/28/3 26/21/1 -8/-7/-2

Tackles 4/3 13/12/1 +9/+9/+1

Headers 4/4 0/0 -4/-4

Interceptions 3 9 +6

MC

Stat DL 20 DL 10 Diff from 20-10

Passes 26/18/5 44/39/4 +18/+21/-1

Tackles 5/4 6/3 +1/-1

Headers 4/4 4/3 0/-1

Interceptions 3 6 +3 </pre>

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Differences for the Defensive MC

D Line Passes Tackles Headers Interceptions

1-10 -23/-19/+1 +8/+9/+1 -7/-5 0

20-10 -8/-7/-2 +9/+9/+1 -4/-4 +6

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1-20 -15/-12/+3 -1/0 -3/-1 -6

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Differences for the MC

D Line Passes Tackles Headers Interceptions

1-10 +15/+19/+4 -2/-2 +4/+3 +5

20-10 +18/+21/-1 +1/-1 0/-1 +3

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1-20 -3/-2 -3/-1 +4/+4 +2 </pre>

As I say I will take a look at this later and I hope this data is understandable to make comparisons.

It does seem however that with a D Line of 10 the DMC made more tackles and less passes.

[panomaniac]

This may be quite interesting for those trying to interpret the defensive line and what it does. The FM07 manual actual gives us a fair amount of hints. Read exactly what it says below and anything in brackets has been added by me as notes.

Here is the manual explanation:

Defensive line instructions are tied somewhat to team mentality, although not on a big level.

If you wish your team to play a progressive passing game (short passing basically), you'll want the defensive line to move up and ultimately take position high up the pitch.

If you're looking to have your team play a long passing game at speed, they can be afforded (note - CAN BE afforded, not MUST be afforded) a deep line since passes will come from deep and go long (hence not NEEDING players to be as close together, which would happen in a high line). This also works (the are referring to the deep d-line here) if they team are under defensive instructions as the team will be more compact (what they mean here is that if the team has general defensive mentalities then the deep d-line will work as players will be closer together than they would be if using a deep d-line + attacking mentalities) and less prone to attacking threats in behind a defence.

A note of caution; deep defensive lines will need to be complimented by defensive (referring to defensive mentalities) midfield (general midfield positions) mentalities (careful not to interpret this as DMC mentalities, this is NOT what they mean) so as to shut down potential gaps between the defensive line and midfield line (a deep line with attacking midfield mentalities would obviously leave a large gap between these lines) - a solution may be found in employing a defensive midfielder, DMC (this would allow you to keep attacking mentalities on the rest of your midfield while at the same time not having a huge gap between defence and midfield).

End manual explanation.

In basic terms of interpreting what the manual meants here is my summary of key things to remember:

- When playing a deep d-line you must do 1 of 2 things to avoid a large gap between midfield and defence: 1. reduce mentalities of the midfield line in general. 2. play with a DMC and leave the other midfield mentalities the same.

- When playing a high d-line, don't have midfield line mentalities too defensive otherwise defence and midfield will be too close and will be challenging for similar balls.

Rashidi eluded to these first 2 points very well in his recent post.

- When playing a short passing game a normal - high d-line is recommended.

- When playing a more direct passing game a deep d-line would be helpful although a direct passing game could also work with a high line but wouldn't be quite as effective.

This confirms what Rashidi and I thought about the relationship between defence and midfield with regard to the defensive line setting.

However, it doesn't explain how much variation we should see in defensive line postioning on the field when comparing high and deep defensive lines.

Your thoughts?

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by fg:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

Oh sorry I forgot to mention that the score in the DL 1 game was 0-0 in the DL 20 games was 2-0 and the DL 10 game was 3-0.

Now as we all know this could be a one time thing, and I hardly would say this qualifies as a rule, its just an observation, and it basically governs how I design tactics.

rashidi

do you use counter atack with your 424 with dl 10? And do you ticked tight marking? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither

[Rashidi]

Not sure what you mean by "defensive line positioning" , if you literally mean the position they are in, then I definitely don't think we''ll see it. Honestly speaking I don't really trust the 2D screen too much, I prefer going off commentary and concentrating on stats.

I spend more time paying attention to ingame stats.

Looking at some of the upcoming patch fixes:

Stopped occasional instance of players taking a simple interception early with their

head and giving ball away cheaply.

Improved sensitivity of mentality slider in terms of player formation shape.

Although there is nothing to indicate DLine will be clearer, what it does reinforce is my opinion that mentality and teamshape are closely linked, and perhaps will appear to be more apparent in the patched version. In essence, if we have players with high mentality and they are playing in a deep dl formation, good luck you're gonna need a heatseeking ball to find them.

The 90 degree dribble and the bad first touch that comes from headers will be fixed which is good, and the notorious dribbling DC will also be fixed..though I was beginning to enjoy my DC's forays into the opposite half.

Seems I've strayed

[panomaniac]

Yeah I did mean the literal position of defenders on the pitch depending on the d-line setting. You do see it to some extent when using the extremes of the d-line, 1 to 20 on the slider, but its not as pronounced as you'd think for a 19 point slider difference, hence why it's hard to see when only moving a few points at a time on the slider.

That is what I'd like to see become a little more pronounced.

[panomaniac]

Just an update on how I'm setting up my d-line at the moment.

First of all I work out the mentalities of my team, I either use global mentality or if I split mentalities I make sure that each line of the team has the same mentality so they play as a unit.

The I find the mentality of my deepest midfield line - could be the DM line or just the M line - then I set my d-line to 2 notches below that of my deepest midfield line.

So at present I'm actually trialing a global mentality and as a result the mentality of my midfield line is 15, like the rest of the team. Therefore, I set my d-line slider to 13.

Working well with Carlisle at present, 1st in the league after 9 games, conceded only 3 league goals and have knocked out Leeds and Crewe in the League Cup without conceding a goal. Closing down is set to 15 for the whole team in case you're wondering.

So overall the defence is doing quite well at the moment with my current d-line setting.

[Gabi80]

Originally posted by panomaniac:

Just an update on how I'm setting up my d-line at the moment.

First of all I work out the mentalities of my team, I either use global mentality or if I split mentalities I make sure that each line of the team has the same mentality so they play as a unit.

so if i use dmc and his mentality is 5, my d-line sholuid be on 3?( My mentality: FBs-5, DCs-3,DMC-5, MCs-16,AMR/L-15, SC-12) Team mentality 13. What my d-line should be in your opinion?

The I find the mentality of my deepest midfield line - could be the DM line or just the M line - then I set my d-line to 2 notches below that of my deepest midfield line.

So at present I'm actually trialing a global mentality and as a result the mentality of my midfield line is 15, like the rest of the team. Therefore, I set my d-line slider to 13.

Working well with Carlisle at present, 1st in the league after 9 games, conceded only 3 league goals and have knocked out Leeds and Crewe in the League Cup without conceding a goal. Closing down is set to 15 for the whole team in case you're wondering.

So overall the defence is doing quite well at the moment with my current d-line setting.

[Gabi80]

Originally posted by Gabi80:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by panomaniac:

Just an update on how I'm setting up my d-line at the moment.

First of all I work out the mentalities of my team, I either use global mentality or if I split mentalities I make sure that each line of the team has the same mentality so they play as a unit.

so if i use dmc and his mentality is 5, my d-line sholuid be on 3?( My mentality: FBs-5, DCs-3,DMC-5, MCs-16,AMR/L-15, SC-12) Team mentality 13. What my d-line should be in your opinion?

The I find the mentality of my deepest midfield line - could be the DM line or just the M line - then I set my d-line to 2 notches below that of my deepest midfield line.

So at present I'm actually trialing a global mentality and as a result the mentality of my midfield line is 15, like the rest of the team. Therefore, I set my d-line slider to 13.

Working well with Carlisle at present, 1st in the league after 9 games, conceded only 3 league goals and have knocked out Leeds and Crewe in the League Cup without conceding a goal. Closing down is set to 15 for the whole team in case you're wondering.

So overall the defence is doing quite well at the moment with my current d-line setting.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for double post.

If i use dmc with mentality 5 my d-line should be on 3? This is my mentality:

DCs-3

FBs-5

DMC-5

MCs-16

AMR/L-15

SC-12

What is my d-line settings should be in your opinion?

[panomaniac]

Yes, I would put the D-Line at 2 points below the deepest midfield lines' mentality.

However, in my opinion you will struggle because the difference in mentality between the defence + dmc and the mc's + other attacking players is too great.

I would for starters put all players in the same line of the team on the same mentality. In your case you'd only need to change your defence as currently your DC's and FB's have different mentalities.

Then I would do the following. Make your defenders mentalities closer to that of the MC's so that you don't have huge gaps in your team.

Once you have a better balance of mentalities across your team that aren't so 'spread out' then you can consider your defensive line. Look at the mentality of your DMC and then I would set the d-line to 2 notches below that.

That's how I'd go about doing things with the set-up you showed me.

BUT you must remember that there is no tactical theory that is set in stone and it's likely there will be other combinations that will also work.

[bob]

if you want to see how the d-line works you need to set all your defenders to 1 closing down, because if youve got quite high closing down your defenders will attack the ball before they get anywhere near where theyre retreating to as the AI usually plays direct, therefore the ball is coming at you faster than you can retreat!

after testing this i agree with cleon's assessment and therefore suggest that a d-line of between 6 and 10 is optimum for most situations and a high line should only be used against poor teams (imo), assuming that 6 is the edge of your area!

[Gabi80]

Originally posted by panomaniac:

Yes, I would put the D-Line at 2 points below the deepest midfield lines' mentality.

However, in my opinion you will struggle because the difference in mentality between the defence + dmc and the mc's + other attacking players is too great.

I would for starters put all players in the same line of the team on the same mentality. In your case you'd only need to change your defence as currently your DC's and FB's have different mentalities.

Then I would do the following. Make your defenders mentalities closer to that of the MC's so that you don't have huge gaps in your team.

Once you have a better balance of mentalities across your team that aren't so 'spread out' then you can consider your defensive line. Look at the mentality of your DMC and then I would set the d-line to 2 notches below that.

That's how I'd go about doing things with the set-up you showed me.

BUT you must remember that there is no tactical theory that is set in stone and it's likely there will be other combinations that will also work.

OK, i will try this:

DCs-6

DMC-8

DR-10

AMR-13

MCs-14

SC-12

my dmc has mentality 8 do d-line is 6

Correct?

[panomaniac]

Yes, if your DMC is mentality 8 then d-line would be 6, according to how I set things up.

[charliefoster]

I find that if your playing

1. A deep defensive line then a DMC is needed

2. A high defensive line then playing offside trap works

[cHrO]

i agree with charlie, was playin a basic 4-4-2 with MR/ML short farrows with pompey and i experimented with both high and low defensive lines because my defence were conceding goals no end. i realised that with a high defensive line normal closing down and offside trap ticked i didn't concede as many (altho i was still losing matches consistently). then i tried a low defensive line normal closing down and offside trap ticked and i conceded plenty.

anyway thanks all of u for the many tactical posts.. greatly enlightened. back to my disastrous pompey, lying in 17th place.

[CristianoSatinellio]

You guys, I created a tactic based on the ideas spread in this thread. It's still working pretty well, I played 22 matches so far with Milan and have only conceded 7 goals so far. I scored no less than 60, so that's not that bad.

I use zonal marking, my defense line is about 5, closing down is rarely. So far the team instructions. My backs are set to 4 defense mentality and high closing down. The idea for this came from a friendly I played. I won the game 4-1 but was annoyed that they scored against me. The goal came from a cross from one of their wingers, so I figured out that if my backs would close down they could prevent this. My centrebacks are set to 4 defensive mentality as well but closing down according to team (rarely). I use a 4-4-2 diamond, so I play a DMC. His defensive mentality is 5 and he closes down often. I'm using Gattuso for this one, because Pirlo can't defend, but is one hell of an attacking player. My attacking midfielder and my two strikers are set to a high closing down.

Thanks to you guys I now finally found a tactic that works ( at least until now..)

Cheers to you all!!