Did the Classic #10 died or we just dont know how to set him up? 2 things I've changed that brought my Classic #10 back

[jondragonborn]

Hi guys.

As most of you, I grew up watching phenomenal players playing the Classic #10 role. Legends like Zidane, Riquelme, Deco (at Porto), Rui Costa, Totti, Alex de Souza and Rivaldo.

However, it seems to be a a norm to say that "Nowadays, theres no space for the Classic #10".

In a way, its true. The Classic #10 (meaning a playmaking genius that makes "team-mates sprang into life around the player, anticipating knife-through-butter killer balls and deft touches to open up defences", as said in this FootballTimes article) has vanished. He was moved to a #8 spot (think Iniesta, De Bruyne or Xavi) or to the #5 spot (Xabi, Pirlo, Thiago).

But that its real life. What about Football Manager?

Its easy to find topics complaining about the "#10 role" by browsing around this forum (or others).

The consensus seems to be: "Theres no way to play with a Classic #10. The AMC spot its a dead zone. The better you can get its a Shadow Striker that steps to score in the box".

However, I think theres 2 things we can change to bring the Classic #10 back. 

1) Lower the tempo

90% of tactics made for FM24 are with Higher or Much Higher tempo. Whats the problem here?

Higher Tempo = Less time to think

Less time to think = Less time to move to be open

Less time to move = Easier to mark your AMC out of the game

After I started to lower the tempo of my tactis, I started to see more movements from my players. Why? Because now they have more time to move. Instructions like "Roam from Position" work better that way. And no, your team does not get "predictable", its the other way around.

2) Change the position of your Classic #10

Heres the thing: the initial position of yours players are the "defensive position" they will adopt during game. If your #10 is at the AMC Slot, he will defend there. But he'll not necessarially attack from there.

Players move during attack. So, your Classic #10 needs to be at the AMC when attacking, he dont need to start the play there.

When we lower the tempo, we get more time to put our player there. 

 

"Ok, but thats theory. What about practice?".

Right now, I'm testing these concepts in practice and I got some nice results to show. Heres how I'm setting up my midfield for my Classic #10:

Fausto Vera and Maycon are my support players. They help my team to defend and work the ball at the midfield.

Coronado its my Classic #01. Why I choose him?

He got pass, vision, flair, technique and agility at 16 and 17. So, he got the technical side of a classic 10: he can pass, hes unpredictable, great tecnique and creativity. 

He also got decent stats at Decision, Antecipation, Composure, Off the Ball and Teamwork.

So, hes not individualist and he can read the game and make good decisions at a decent rate. Could be better, sure, but hes great.

I play him at Advanced Playmaker - Attack, but on the CM Slot. Why?

• He can help my team when we are building the game (although I'm testing some alternatives, like putting the Libero on Support to ease up the buildup)
• He often moves to the AMC slot during the game. He receives the ball constantly there
• He can step the box to shoot, which its a great bonus

Also, I instruct him to Roam from Position. That way, he can escape easily from DMs and get free more often.

This is what Coronado made at my last 2 games:

Assist

Look how the "Roam from Position" works well. He gets the ball at the corner of the Zone 14 to brilliant make the assist.

Assist

Key Pass

Important:

All of this was made at only 2 GAMES. Its not a highlights from the season, but from 2 games only.

In this 2 games, Coronado made 9 Key Passes (he played 135 minutes) and 4 assists (1 was from a corner).

He played as a Classic #10. He gave our Advanced Forward (Yuri Alberto) open looks, he set up plays, he was amazing all around. Watching the game, he really played as a Classic #10. 

"Its the tactic perfect?"

Right now, no.

I'm still testing. We have problems at the back and in the building up.

Right now, I'm testing a Libero on Support to ease up the building up and free the #10 even more.

Also, I'm testing up other partnes at the midfield and the possible strikers to get the most out of Coronado.

"It will only work with the Advanced Playmaker?"

I dont think so. I'm willing to test the CM-Att as well. Even other roles, maybe.

"It will work 100% of times?"

No idea. These are still concepts I'm developing.

I believe we can put a Classic #10 to work. I'm very happy with initial results and will update this thread when I find out more.

[andyinc]

Interested post. Looking forward to seeing your findings after some more testing. Great work so far 

[naufal husain]

how do you defend area in front of your cbs? i suppose you play 3-5-2, eh?

[jondragonborn]

1 hora atrás, andyinc disse:

Interested post. Looking forward to seeing your findings after some more testing. Great work so far 

Thanks! I will update after a few seasons of testing in different environments

 

1 hora atrás, naufal husain disse:

how do you defend area in front of your cbs? i suppose you play 3-5-2, eh?

I play in a 5-3-2 right know.

Wingback -Central Defender-Central Defender-Central Defender-Wingback.

The CD at centre its on Cover duty. That makes him a Sweeper that cleans through balls. The other two are on Block duty, they defend the front of the area.

However, one side effect of putting my #10 at the CM slot its that now I have a kind of "screen" at the front of my box. They kind of block the way and naturally makes the other team play wide. Then my Sweeper clean crosses and long balls. Its a 7/10 system, to be honest. Its working nice, but could've be better.

[NineCloudNine]

By moving your attacking playmaker to CM strata you are brilliantly making the point that the classic #10 has changed.

The players you list would now be midfielders (Zidane, Deco) or deep-lying forwards (Totti, Del Piero).

No-one disputes that players such as this can be successful, it’s just that they rarely do it ‘in the hole’ behind strikers. It’s that specific classic role that has largely been squeezed out of the modern game, not the type of player.

The exception I think is Riquelme. Too slow, too immobile. Might work in a weaker league, but would be crushed by modern pressing and be a passenger when defending. Try making a success of Joao Felix as an example! 

[Los_Culés]

Riquelme was not staying "in the hole", he was constantly moving out from it to dictate the play. He was also one of the most pressing resistant players ever, capable of having several opponents on his back (this ability also made Xavi the best Spanish player ever). I agree with the passenger, though you can have one exceptional player free from defensive duties in modern football (Messi). It depends on how you tactically set up the rest of team.

[De Nile]

This is great analysis and something I should consider doing in some games but Nine Cloud Nine is right on what it meant to be a classic 10 and how it's easier to utilise their talents elsewhere. I do think your player can be a fantasista(magic man) more than a classic 10/ trequartista. If you look closely at players who show ingenious and creative plays most of the time, they can be the teams magic man, like Messi. I wouldn't call Messi a classic 10 because I think he is more complete offensively than 10s of the past, but he has the magic that all the 10s of the past possess.

 

[jondragonborn]

5 horas atrás, NineCloudNine disse:

By moving your attacking playmaker to CM strata you are brilliantly making the point that the classic #10 has changed.

The players you list would now be midfielders (Zidane, Deco) or deep-lying forwards (Totti, Del Piero).

No-one disputes that players such as this can be successful, it’s just that they rarely do it ‘in the hole’ behind strikers. It’s that specific classic role that has largely been squeezed out of the modern game, not the type of player.

The exception I think is Riquelme. Too slow, too immobile. Might work in a weaker league, but would be crushed by modern pressing and be a passenger when defending. Try making a success of Joao Felix as an example! 

You made a great point. However, I want to try to explain my point a little further.

My take is that we have a tendency to put our #10 at the AMC role because "there where he should be". But the initial formation, the formation we set up at the tactics view, is a initial setup. The "starting point".

We used to see, lets say, Zidane occupying the AMC strata, but he didnt started there. He wasnt there before, static. He moved there during the play.

We get the idea that he was always there because he occupied that space often and decisively, but he got there during attacking movement.

So, my take its that even the classics #10 didnt sat at the AMC spot waiting the ball.

Therefore, my view is that we need to put our #10 to move to the Zone 14 when we are attacking, so he can act there. 

When we put the player initially at the AMC spot, he will move from there or be marked out of the game. Thats, in my view, why we cant seem to get the classic #10 working at the AMC strata. 

But if we put our 10 at a different starting point, in a role and with instructions that will move him to the hole behind the strikers, then whats the difference from a classic #10? He will receive the ball at the Zone 14, he will decide the game there.

[jondragonborn]

4 horas atrás, De Nile disse:

This is great analysis and something I should consider doing in some games but Nine Cloud Nine is right on what it meant to be a classic 10 and how it's easier to utilise their talents elsewhere. I do think your player can be a fantasista(magic man) more than a classic 10/ trequartista. If you look closely at players who show ingenious and creative plays most of the time, they can be the teams magic man, like Messi. I wouldn't call Messi a classic 10 because I think he is more complete offensively than 10s of the past, but he has the magic that all the 10s of the past possess.

 

I agree with you, Nine Cloud Nine and De Nile. Your comments are great food thought and I'll reflect upon them. Thank you very much!

[NineCloudNine]

15 hours ago, jondragonborn said:

You made a great point. However, I want to try to explain my point a little further.

My take is that we have a tendency to put our #10 at the AMC role because "there where he should be". But the initial formation, the formation we set up at the tactics view, is a initial setup. The "starting point".

We used to see, lets say, Zidane occupying the AMC strata, but he didnt started there. He wasnt there before, static. He moved there during the play.

We get the idea that he was always there because he occupied that space often and decisively, but he got there during attacking movement.

So, my take its that even the classics #10 didnt sat at the AMC spot waiting the ball.

Therefore, my view is that we need to put our #10 to move to the Zone 14 when we are attacking, so he can act there. 

When we put the player initially at the AMC spot, he will move from there or be marked out of the game. Thats, in my view, why we cant seem to get the classic #10 working at the AMC strata. 

But if we put our 10 at a different starting point, in a role and with instructions that will move him to the hole behind the strikers, then whats the difference from a classic #10? He will receive the ball at the Zone 14, he will decide the game there.

I think to an extent this depends who we are talking about. People generally lump together quite different players in these sorts of discussions.

For example Totti, Baggio, Del Piero were forwards who definitely did not start in midfield and move up. Riquelme started high and moved side to side more than coming deep. Rivaldo played much of his career as what in FM we’d call an IW. Same for Neymar. De Bruyne has pretty much always been a midfielder. I’d say Deco was always a midfielder too. Same for modern attacking playmakers like Pedri and Iniesta. So that’s a pretty wide range of playing styles to categorise as “a classic #10”.

Zidane is probably the most complete all-round player IMO. I can definitely see him fitting your description of pushing forward from a deeper starting point. But I still think it is a stretch to describe him as a CM.

Where I very much agree with you is on the power of an AP-A or a CM-A as the middle of a CM strata three, with aggressive instructions and PPMs. I have done the same and get a tremendous goal/assist output from them plus (importantly!) some exhilarating driving dribbles and the occasional fantasy goal. Your analysis of how to make this work is excellent.

I see you are also using WBs and a Libero. That’s interesting too. I combine my AP-A with a back 4 (2WBs) and a Halfback DM. This is defensively stable and gives good space for the AP to work. I found that using a Libero or IWBs tended to bunch the midfield. The downside of the WB/HB route is that the match engine does like to go wide, presumably because that’s where the space is. So you have to force play through the centre with instructions (and a narrow pitch). Using a AP-A role rather than CM-A helps here because they naturally draw the ball.

Edited March 23 by NineCloudNine

[Icy]

I also tried to put my AMC back to CM with good success as a playmaker. I find that at least for the past two years, or even sooner, maybe with the introduction of the SS role, the AMC acts more like a second striker, despite of the role, than as a playmaker in the hole (maybe enganche is the exception but it's way too static and easy to be marked out of the game). Besides enganche, any other AMC role, even on support, runs up the field way too early and doesn't come back to help the midfield as it should.

I really wish one day we will have two screens, one for defensive positioning and another for attacking as it will help a lot with our tactics.