[FM 24] asymmetrical 3-4-3

[Maddux]

New year, new tactics, new thread. But this time a tactics that is anything but basic.

 

Just like my other tactics, this one is in development for a couple years as well. Originally I tried to replicate Eintracht Frankfurt under Adi Hütter and it worked pretty well, except for that I had to or wanted to make changes in the front-3. Adi Hütter used Sebastien Haller as a Target Man that was dropping back to the #10 position, which wasn't that hard to replicate. But not everyone has a player like Sebastien Haller and I don't like to build tactics that just work with the perfect set of players.

 

But replicating Hütters tactics with a slightly different front-3 turned out to be a decision when Oliver Glasner took over at Frankfurt. Glasner also sticked to the 3-4-3 formation Frankfurt was using since Niko Kovac but with a different front-3. His approach was one with a player like Mario Götze as a classic #10, Jesper Lindström as a DLF and Randal Kolo Money as Advanced Forward.

 

Fast forward to last summer. Frankfurt released Glasner after a bunch of internal and external disputes and hired Dino Toppmöller as the new coach. Someone that isn't well known as a coach except for his respectable achievements with F91 Düdelingen and his assistant manager job at Bayern Munich under Julian Nagelsmann.

But maybe it was destiny that he had to become a coach and got the job at Frankfurt because his father Klaus Toppmöller, a well known name in german football, coached Eintracht Frankfurt in the 90s.

 

Let's take a look at the formation before I go deeper into the tactics (formation with players for an easier explanation and better understanding)

 

 

While Hütter and Glasner started buildup out of a clear 3-4-x formation that transformed into a 4-4-2 Diamond in possession and goes back to a 3-4-x after losing the ball, Toppmöller took a slightly different approach with a 3-4-3 base formation that transforms into a 4-4-2 Flat or 4-2-3-1 formation in most phases of the game. Not just in offense but also in defence.

 

In early buildup you can often see a standard 3-4-2-1 or 3-3-2-2 formation, depending on how Toppmöller expects the opponents to press. In a 3-4-2-1 buildup Larsson will drop deep beside Skhiri while Götze and Chaibi also drop deeper to form a 2-2 box in midfield. With Larsson staying at the #8 position and Götze dropping beside him Frankfurt still has the midfield box but this time higher up the pitch.

 

Positions and roles of the midfield players are often interchangeable and you can often see Larsson changing sides with Skhiri and Götze changing sides and roles with Chaibi, depending on which side has the focus. Something that is impossible to recreate in Football Manager so I had to build the tactics using Toppmöllers principles as good as possible.

 

Buta's job in offense isn't that of a traditional Wingback but more that of a traditional Winger in a 4-4-2 Flat or 4-2-3-1 formation. Instead of running with the ball he uses his great speed and acceleration to get receive through balls behind the opposing Wingbacks/Fullbacks and hit crosses in the box or taking shots from inside the box.

He needs defensive cover of course and this is Tuta's job, who often follows Buta forward up into the final third to also provide a passing option in the back.

 

Nkounkou (or Philipp Max) plays more like a fullback that arrives later in the final third and hits crosses after overlapping the half-left #10. This is also interchangeablewith what Buta is doing on the other side but I won't build a “8 players forward”-exploit tactics so I had to find another solution.

He is backed up by Willian Pacho, a great BPD that is rarely pushing forward into the oppositions half except for when the team as a whole pushes up against very deep defending opponents.

 

Cover against long balls is provided by Robin Koch and Ellyes Skhiri covers the defensive midfield while recycling possession from this deeper position. Last but not least we have Omar Marmoush as the spearhead in offense.

 

From this explanation it should become pretty clear how Frankfurt transforms from a 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2 into a 4-4-2 Flat or 4-2-3-1 in offense. Nkounkou and Tuta act as Fullbacks, Skhiri and Larsson are building the midfield duo while Buta is the right winger and Götze and Chaibi do job sharing as left winger, #10 and/or DLF.

 

But Toppmöller isn't just using the 4-4-2 Flat in offense but in defence and transition phases to.

After losing the ball you can have an initial 4 player press with Marmoush, Chaibi, Götze and Buta that is backed by another 4 player line of Nkounkou, Skhiri, Larsson and Tuta.

After the ball got past first pressing line, the second line tries to slow the opponent down and give Buta plus the left Winger the chance to catch up and form 2 new 4 player lines. Once Buta and the left Winger got back Nkounkou and Tuta can drop back and form a back-4 with Pacho and Koch. Withe the option to transform into a 3-4-x or 3-1-4-2 formation if needed.

 

 

Player roles:

 

Back-3

 

Spoiler

When trying to replicate a tactics where you play like with a back-4 out of a back-3 formation it's obvious that one of the central defenders has to be a Wide Centre-Back. And in this tactics the right CD. The right Winger is already the runner so I needed a sitter behind him that provides a passing option in the back. A WCB-De would sit to deep and the WCB-Su was the only option left because I don't use exploits.

I mostly used the Libero in the middle of the back-3 in previous Fms to replicate what Makoto Hasebe and Martin Hinteregger were playing at Frankfurt. Stepping forward into midfield during buildup to force defensive opponents to press and play line breaking passes if possible. But out of possession staying deep to cover against long balls.

Sadly SI destroyed the Libero in FM 24, at least the traditional Libero. He is now running forward we to early and falls back way to late to cover. The best suitable option is a BPD-Co, that isn't doing the offensive job as good as the old Libero but is fulfilling his cover duty.

It took a bit and many match reviews to figure out what to do with the left CD. Using a WCB-De looked tempting but, even on defend duty, he turned out to be to offensive. It worked in previous Fms with the DM playing as an Anchor Man and forming a runner/sitter relationship with the Libero. But it isn't working that great in FM 24 anymore and the Anchor Man isn't properly helping to form a 4 player line in midfield after losing the ball, which results in a hole in midfield that is hard to defend.

I also didn't want the left CD to step out of the back-4 when out of possession but hold the line and slow down opponents. In this case the BPD-De was the best solution for what I wanted to achive.

Both the BPD can also be changed to CD if your players lack the technical abilities but I recommend keeping the left CD on BPD. The reason is that the midfield and attackers often pull the defenders deeper into their own half during our buildup, which gives the left CD a lot of space to dribble into midfield and play line breaking passes directly to the LCAM or AF. A normal CD-De won't try these runs.

 

 

Winger:

 

Spoiler

The tactics had a Wingback on each side in previous Fms and worked fine to. But to replicate Frankfurt under Toppmöller with one very offensive minded winger in the “fake” 4-4-2 Flat one of the wide playrs had to start higher up the pitch.

Starting the attacking winger in the RAM position was to offensive and he usually positioned himself way to far up the pitch to help in buildup and form a 3-4 buildup. And I wanted him to help in defence like a wingback would. So I needed to find the right role for the player in the RM position.

A Defensive Winger turned out to be to defensive and the only options left were Winger and Wide Midfielder. The Wide Midfielder looked like the obvious choice first but, even on attack, was playing more like a supporting player on the wing. The Winger-At gave me exactly what I needed. Helping in buildup, dropping deep like a Wingback when out of possession and taking runs behind the opponents defensive line when in the final third.

A CWB-Su would replicate better what Nkounkou is doing at Frankfurt but I decided to use a WB-Su instead because he is often doing something a CWB-Su rarely does. Both WB and CWB force the opposing fullback/wingback to leave his position and press, which leaves a lot of space in his back. A WB-Su will often use this space to play a pass into this space that the LCAM then can pick up. A CWB-Su usually will try to beat his man with a dribble.

 

 

Central Midfield

 

Spoiler

There isn't a best solution here but a couple good ones. With teams like Frankfurt I usually use a DLP-De in DM just because I have the right players and have the better team most of the time. A Dm that pushes slightly higher isn't an issue.

But I also use a DM-De if I don't have a good defensive playmaker or just want my DM to sit a little bit deeper and cover more. Especially against opponents with a X-X-1-2 formation to mark the CAM.

 

The CM-Su is my basic go-to and I start most of the matches with that role. Changing him to BBM for a bit more offensive power is an option to And a Segundo Volante on support beside the DM works to. But I like it a bit more to start the player in the RCM position with a bit less offensive role to pull opponents out of position and open space in the right half-space for the DLF.

 

Front-3

 

Spoiler

As explained before it's impossible to perfectly replicate the role and position changes of Götze and Chaibi due to the restrictions of the match engine. I've tried the LCAM in the CAM position with Pis like “move into channels” etc but he was running to the right side way to often and then the left wingback had no passing option.

I opted for the Trequartista because he plays similar to a AP-At in buildup and transition but I can use both the “stay wider” and “move into channels” PI, which allows for a better movement around the pitch. Trequartista and SS are the only roles that can use both Pis at the same time but the SS positions himself to high during buildup.

Nothing much to say about the DLF. I needed to create a traditional striker partnership and what else do you want to use in combination with an AF? He get's all the Pis that allow for more movement to create space for the AF and we're done.

I could have used other roles like CF or PF for the central striker but I needed someone that consistently sits at the offside line and stretched the defence.

I would love to give you a more detailed explanation why i'm using DLF-Su and Af but that's just it.

 

 

Team Instructions:

 

 

Spoiler

I always try to start as basic as possible and use other Tis to adapt to my opponent.

I don't use the “prevent short GM distribution” Ti because it stretches my defensive formation to much and gives my opponent to much space between the first 2 lines when he managed to get past the first line. He can have the ball in his own third and play forward into midfield where I then win the ball.

You can make the formation a bit tighter if the passing lengths get to long and you're risking to lose the ball to often.

Pass into space can also be removed to minimize losing the ball and it's recommended to play without the TI against defensive opponents. You won't find much space anyway and it's better to play the ball into your players feet so the can quickly play another pass and pull opponents out of their positions.

“Hit early crosses” can be useful against stronger teams to exploit open spaces while on the counter attack and/or after getting past one of the pressing lines.

Positive mentality is the default setting but it's highly recommended to adapt the mentality depending on how strong your opponent is compared to your team. My rule of thumb is:

- balanced when i'm the underdog or playing away against an equal opponent

- positive when i'm the slightly stronger team or playing at home against an equal opponent

- attacking when i'm the clear favorite or need to push for a goal

FM 24 Toppmöller Ball v1.3.fmf

Edited January 3 by Maddux
additional informations

[Amazingortega]

Big fan of 3 at the back and this looks great. Quick question tho is this based on counter attack ? 

[Maddux]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Amazingortega:

Big fan of 3 at the back and this looks great. Quick question tho is this based on counter attack ? 

It isn't a counter attacking tactics but can strike well on the counter.

[Maddux]

I updated the entry post with explanations about player roles, team instructions and player instructions.

[Adonalsium]

Can you update with some pictures of what it looks like in-game? In possession (deep in the enemy zone and build-up) and out of possession defensive shape? Does it concede counters easily?

[Maddux]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Adonalsium:

Can you update with some pictures of what it looks like in-game? In possession (deep in the enemy zone and build-up) and out of possession defensive shape? Does it concede counters easily?

I can do that later today.

I rarely conceide goals from counter attacks with this tactics.

[Maddux]

@Adonalsium

Making screenshots of the positioning in offense and defence turned out to be harder than i thought. There is just to much movement depending on opponents that it's hard to find scenes where i can say "yes, that's the typical positioning", especially in defence and transition phase after losing the ball. I would've to do at least 6 screenshots for a single scene, in offense and defence, the give a decent overview on how players move.

I figured that it' better to get my OBS running again, record some scenes, cut it together and upload it on youtube to link the videos here. But i can't promise how long it takes. maybe i get it together until sunday.

In the meantime i recommend downloading the tactics and try it in a throw-away save to get a quick look how the tactics works.

[Helldragon]

Hi @Maddux

 

wie würdest du aktuell spielen lassen mit den neuen Transfers?

[Maddux]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Helldragon:

Hi @Maddux

 

wie würdest du aktuell spielen lassen mit den neuen Transfers?

Prinzipiell von der Formation und den Rollen her würde ich an der Taktik garnichts ändern. Bei den TIs würde ich ggf etwas kürzer und schneller spielen lassen. Ggf sogar mit "work ball into box". Das Spielermaterial gibt es her.

Ich würde die Spieler auf folgenden Positionen einsetzen:

DM: Skhiri, Rode, Hasebe

ZM: Larsson, Götze

RM: Knauff, Dina Ebimbe, Buta

OM: Chaibi, van de Beek

HS: Kalajdzic, Bahoya

ST: Ekitike, Marmoush

Zentral im Sturm braucht es eher Antritt und Geschwindigkeit statt die Kopfballstärke von Kalajdzic. Zudem kommen die hohen Flanken in der Taktik ohnehin immer auf den langen Pfosten. Und da ist dann ein Kalajdzic Gold wert. Für die zentrale Sturmposition ist er viel zu langsam aber auf der Position der Hängenden Spitze ist das egal. Dafür kann er mit seiner Physis Bälle gut festmachen und an den schnellen Stoßstürmer weiterleiten. Alternativ kann man auch mit Kalajdzic als 10er spielen und dafür Chaibi oder van de Beek als Hängende Spitze aufstellen.

Von der dünnen Personaldecke in der Innenverteidigung abgesehen ist der Kader wie gemacht für die Taktik. Kauf dir Kempf von Hertha BSC. Sehr günstig, solide und zählt als Vereinseigengewächs, weswegen er in der UCL keinen Kaderplatz wegnimmt. Fall nnamdi Collins in deinem Save nicht gut genug ist noch einen rechtsfüßigen Innenverteidiger verpflichten und der Kader ist fertig.

[Helldragon]

Dankeschön! Du meinst also so?

 

https://gyazo.com/33d38b1411de3d80f3b07fdf4de7b191

[Maddux]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Helldragon:

Dankeschön! Du meinst also so?

 

https://gyazo.com/33d38b1411de3d80f3b07fdf4de7b191

Genau so.

Auf der 10 musst du schauen was für dich besser funktioniert. Götze ist der klar bessere Vorbereiter, während Chaibi schneller ist und auch als Torschütze glänzt.

[Helldragon]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Maddux:

Genau so.

Auf der 10 musst du schauen was für dich besser funktioniert. Götze ist der klar bessere Vorbereiter, während Chaibi schneller ist und auch als Torschütze glänzt.

Super, vielen dank!

[Maddux]

Long time no see but here is an update for the tactics. Or a (fun) alternative version of the tactics to be exact.

 

I became pretty upset recently with all these "haha i'm so funny" troll post on Reddit where people posted their 1-defender-tactics they concede 10 goals per match with and asking why they're keep losing. But then i remembered how Inter Milan is playing with the central defenders often pushing into midfield during buildup while midfielders like Calhanoglu dropped back into defence. And i thought: "Hm, wait a minute. Maybe this could work. How about defending with just 1 player while in possession but concede 0 goals?".

So i took my asymmetrical 3-4-3 as a base, did some changes on a few roles and it works. It works like a charm.

 

 

During buildup and in possession the players position themself on the pitch exactly how you would imagine or how you can see in the picture below.

 

 

Both Liberos push up into midfield beside the Anchor Man to create a 1-3 buildup. The Trequartista drops deep into midfield (especially with the Comes deep to get ball PPM) to form a line of 4 in the more advanced midfield and the strikers lurk further up the pitch for through balls.

One might think that a Half Back would be better than an Anchor Man to create the player movement that you can often see from Inter Milan. But that's not the case. The HB and middle CB will cuddle during buildup and block each other, which will cause many possession loses with no central player to challenge the striker. Changing the middle CD to Libero to will fix this buildup problem but the HB will push up in possession with all 3 Liberos allready high up the pitch. And then we have no player left defending against long balls.

I've tested a bit with different roles and positions for the Trequartista and changing him to CM-A or MEZ-A is an option. But just if you already have the lead and want an even more compact midfield to keep possession. When attacking the Trequartista is the best option. He will act like a AP-A in the CAM position during buildup, dropping deep and offer a passing option in left central midfield. Without having the same pull on the ball playmaker roles have. This dropping movement will pull defenders out of position and creates more space for the AF on the near post when we play over our left CWB. And he will act as a goal threat on long post when we play over our right side.

The AP as a playmaker has to much pull on the ball, and both the AM-A and Shadow Striker position themself to much in the centre when we progress into the final third, sitting on top of the AF and leaving the post on their side empty.

 

Why the tactics concedes such few goals with just one player in a defensive position during possession? Because there are 9 players in the opposition half very close to each other and to every opponent that could try to initiate a counter attack. Passing lanes are pretty much closed, opponents have one or often even 2 of our players close to them that can challenge the ball and the only option left is a desperate long ball to the striker. Or both strikers. Weirdly enough the tactics works against tactics with 2 strikers to. You first get the shivers when you see the lonely middle CD standing between 2 strikers but it works. Because the CD just has to challenge the long ball and hold up the striker if he can control the ball while the Liberos drop back pretty quick to form a back-3.

 

I've tested the tactics with a team that was already practicing the asymmetrical 3-4-3 in training sessions. Even they never played in the original 3-4-3 the familarity was already high due to training practice and still good after the changes on 4 roles. So you might want to give your players a couple extra tactics training sessions for a better familiarity with the tactics to see best results.

Because the Liberos mostly play in central midfield you can also use CDMs on the Libero position and see good results. Most of their defensive duty is picking up passes anyway and there are just a few crosses coming into our box.

Try this version of the tactics and tell me how it works for you.

 

 

FM 24 asym 1 at the back v1.0.fmf

Edited March 10 by Maddux
dead link

[TheMartello]

Will try it out later!

What results did you get with it?

[Maddux]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb TheMartello:

Will try it out later!

What results did you get with it?

I did just half a season with Eintracht Frankfurt with 1L - 4D - 21W in 26 matches across all competitions. The only loss was a 1-2 loss against Chelsea in the Champions League where they had 6 total shots and scored from 2 corners.

[Raymubdo21]

Can you share this version of the tactic please? Apologies if you have already 

 

[Maddux]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Raymubdo21:

Can you share this version of the tactic please? Apologies if you have already 

 

It's attached to the post that you've quoted

 

But attached to this post you can find the updated version.

I changed the Anchor Man to DM-D and the CWB-S to WB-S.

I think that i will stick with the DM-D but i'm still testing which wingback roles is better. The WB hits more and earlier crosses while the CWBs positioning is a bit more offensive.

FM 24 asym 1 at the back v1.1.fmf

[Raymubdo21]

Great thank you!

[LukeSavo]

On 11/03/2024 at 21:41, Maddux said:

It's attached to the post that you've quoted

 

But attached to this post you can find the updated version.

I changed the Anchor Man to DM-D and the CWB-S to WB-S.

I think that i will stick with the DM-D but i'm still testing which wingback roles is better. The WB hits more and earlier crosses while the CWBs positioning is a bit more offensive.

FM 24 asym 1 at the back v1.1.fmf 42.56 kB · 20 downloads

This tactic has been refreshingly fun and unbelievably solid for me. Certain player traits can obviously help certain positions but appreciate the attempt to make an attacking tactic with 1 CB positioned back actually be incredible  @Maddux

[Maddux]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb LukeSavo:

This tactic has been refreshingly fun and unbelievably solid for me. Certain player traits can obviously help certain positions but appreciate the attempt to make an attacking tactic with 1 CB positioned back actually be incredible  @Maddux

I'm glad you liked the tactics.

Any changes on player roles?

[LukeSavo]

6 hours ago, Maddux said:

I'm glad you liked the tactics.

Any changes on player roles?

Kept majority of roles the same. Instead of 2 CWB or 2 WB's I used 1 each due to the profile of my players and that seemed to work better for those specific players. I keep tinkering with the Liberos on defend duty for that extra defensive capability and for them to be ready if they need to. So far so good!

Results on the save I use for trying new tactics:

[JoOSTAR]

16 hours ago, LukeSavo said:

Kept majority of roles the same. Instead of 2 CWB or 2 WB's I used 1 each due to the profile of my players and that seemed to work better for those specific players. I keep tinkering with the Liberos on defend duty for that extra defensive capability and for them to be ready if they need to. So far so good!

Results on the save I use for trying new tactics:

 

Which team are you testing this with?

[LukeSavo]

20 minutes ago, JoOSTAR said:

 

Which team are you testing this with?

Using my testing tactic save which is Chelsea. Lots of players in all positions and all are relatively good players. Team familiarity obviously needs to be high for any tactic to flourish

[Maddux]

Seems like someone liked the "fun" version of the tactics so much that he submitted the tactics to Zealand, who then featured it in his latest video on Youtube.

 

 

I'm glad that someone liked the tactics so much that he though he needed to submit it to Zealand. But i'm honestly pissed about the ratings the tactics got and the fact that the folks rated it without playing a single game with it. Because then Zealand's rating would've been better and none of the folks would've stated that the tactics will concede many goals from long balls. Everyone here that tried the tactics knows that this isn't the case.

 

The current version of the tactics is attached here.

 

- changed the width to wide to stretch the opponent's defence as much as possible

- went back to the Anchor Man because the DM-De pushed up to high and made it to easy for the opponent to cover our 3 central midfield players (the A and the 2 Liberos)

FM 24 asym 1 at the back v1.4.fmf

Edited March 20 by Maddux
Link added