How to get wide players to cut in

[beverage1982]

So on the beta I'm trying to work on a tactical recreation of Unai Emery's Aston Villa. 

 

So far it's going well but one facet of his tactics I can't recreate is wide players moving inside to become 10s in possession.

 

Emery's tactic essentially defends as a 442 then in attack becomes a 4222 with the wide men moving centrally.

 

Gor the life of me I can't seem to replicate this behaviour consistently. Ive tried a variety of roles (IW, tailored wm, wp) but I just can't get them narrow enough.

 

Just wondered if the hive mind had any ideas? Is there a TI I'm missing or should I be pushing those wide players up to the AM strata to make them cut in more?

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

[Fraser]

From my own experience with a Genoa save a few years ago, the role of a Wide Playmaker with an Attack duty pushes the wide midfielders in towards the central AM spots when you have the ball.

[Delial]

Based on the title of this topic, relatives and close ones are not included in the game yet, sadly...  

[Fraser]

7 minutes ago, Delial said:

Based on the title of this topic, relatives and close ones are not included in the game yet, sadly...  

Next year, if the Womens' leagues are included, we can get wife players.

As a Scotland fan, I'd marry Erin Cuthbert!!! 

[phnompenhandy]

I like to edit my wife in as owner of the club. In real life she's president of her company, albeit it isn't a football club.  That way I get to blame her when she doesn't stump up the money or facilities I ask for

[HowzatFM]

9 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

So on the beta I'm trying to work on a tactical recreation of Unai Emery's Aston Villa. 

 

So far it's going well but one facet of his tactics I can't recreate is wide players moving inside to become 10s in possession.

 

Emery's tactic essentially defends as a 442 then in attack becomes a 4222 with the wide men moving centrally.

 

Gor the life of me I can't seem to replicate this behaviour consistently. Ive tried a variety of roles (IW, tailored wm, wp) but I just can't get them narrow enough.

 

Just wondered if the hive mind had any ideas? Is there a TI I'm missing or should I be pushing those wide players up to the AM strata to make them cut in more?

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

As always also doing the same trying to re-create Villa tactics. 
 

It is difficult because the base formation definitely has to be 4-4-2, I’m currently using an IW(A) and WM(A), both with sit narrower and narrow width. They do at points move into the AM position and probably the best that can be done? 
 

what’s your overall tactic looking like? 

[The3points]

If you were alright with pushing players up a strata, AP in the CAM strata stays in the halfspace quite well

[beverage1982]

1 hour ago, HowzatFM said:

As always also doing the same trying to re-create Villa tactics. 
 

It is difficult because the base formation definitely has to be 4-4-2, I’m currently using an IW(A) and WM(A), both with sit narrower and narrow width. They do at points move into the AM position and probably the best that can be done? 
 

what’s your overall tactic looking like? 

Yay good to have company for the challenge.

 

I'll post up tactic tomorrow. Still tinkering with TIs. I'm down a rabbit hole of focus play and width

[WhyMe]

Have you tried the central mids in the DM position and a very narrow team width with focus through the middle?  Roles wise I'd try wide play maker attack on one side and WM-A on the other (PI'd of course).  The WM on the same side as your support striker and the WP behind an attack striker.  I haven't got FM24 yet so this is just theory, but this would be my guess

[HowzatFM]

20 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Yay good to have company for the challenge.

 

I'll post up tactic tomorrow. Still tinkering with TIs. I'm down a rabbit hole of focus play and width

I tried to play around with Kamara as a halfback and pushing Cash further on, like Emery has also used this season. However, just could not find a way to get McGinn to move into centre midfield, unless starting him there, but does not acheive the 4-4-2 defensive shape. 

So therefore best way to re create the 3-2-5 shape is with the IFB(D)

[beverage1982]

4 hours ago, HowzatFM said:

I tried to play around with Kamara as a halfback and pushing Cash further on, like Emery has also used this season. However, just could not find a way to get McGinn to move into centre midfield, unless starting him there, but does not acheive the 4-4-2 defensive shape. 

So therefore best way to re create the 3-2-5 shape is with the IFB(D)

Yup I've struggled with that version of our structure too.

 

While I naturally went 442 DM as the starting point I'm increasingly thinking that 424 DM is the way to go.

 

Not only is it much easier to get the wide players central but also if you look at Unai Emery in game it's his preferred formation (though by the same token his preferred tactical style is wingplay so maybe take it with a grain of salt)

[robot_9x3]

I haven't got FM24 yet, but from old FMs and from what I have read about the new positional play principles, I think you are on the right track with inward moving wideplayer types.
Have you tried to accentuate the behaviour by pushing other players wide and further up (e.g. Fullbacks) instead of FB-Su as maybe FB-At or just WB-Su?
At least in from what I have expierenced with the old FMs that seemed to help to get wide players to more eagerly drift to the middle.

Other like others have said PIs and TIs to bring them as narrow as possible with the ball.

[beverage1982]

Well I'm having no success at this. Just can't get the wide players to drift narrow enough at all. 

 

Have tried all manner of TIs and roles but I think unless I start with a box I can't achieve that shape. 

[JonnyHughes]

Unfortunately I came to this exact same realisation. The only way I could think of making it somewhat work is having 2 CMs or CAMs with Mark specific position on the opposition full backs so they sit wide in a defensive phase but I doubt that would work too well either.

[HowzatFM]

It’s difficult to get them exactly like AMs, but this doesn’t happen all the time. Watching MNF and the analysis they did, all players (apart from FBs) are within the width of the penalty areas when GK has the ball, which you can achieve with sit narrower and narrow width.

This Emery team is so flexible, it’s very hard to get an exact recreation on FM

[beverage1982]

46 minutes ago, HowzatFM said:

It’s difficult to get them exactly like AMs, but this doesn’t happen all the time. Watching MNF and the analysis they did, all players (apart from FBs) are within the width of the penalty areas when GK has the ball, which you can achieve with sit narrower and narrow width.

This Emery team is so flexible, it’s very hard to get an exact recreation on FM

Very true. Are you playing on full narrow?

 

Also what mentality you on? I think balanced is best but I could also see cautious or positive

[Rashidi]

I did an explanation of how you can defend as a 442 and attack in a narrow configuration like a box in this thread.

It is possible, the way roles position themselves, you will generally only see them go narrow in the midfield transition. If u are aiming to do the same thing on FM22 u can’t. You would need to set up a box 442. 

[jc577]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

It is possible, the way roles position themselves, you will generally only see them go narrow in the midfield transition. If u are aiming to do the same thing on FM22 u can’t. You would need to set up a box 442. 

I've tried getting ML/MR players to tuck inside and sit in the half-space on FM24 but found it difficult to achieve consistently, as they didn't come in narrow enough and even when they did, looked for space back out wide. Also doing a Villa replication

[beverage1982]

Think after much consideration (and a huge helping hand from Dan Gear over at the wonderful view from the Touchline) I've finally cracked this. Will probably do a separate thread once I've played a bit more but it's looking so much more like Villa IRL> 

[JonnyHughes]

Looking forward to seeing how you got it to work. I gave up and tried to replicate Girona instead to... let's say mixed results 

[HowzatFM]

3 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Think after much consideration (and a huge helping hand from Dan Gear over at the wonderful view from the Touchline) I've finally cracked this. Will probably do a separate thread once I've played a bit more but it's looking so much more like Villa IRL> 

I have something fairly similar

Reasons for LM on support role? Would Luiz not be more suited to RPM or Segundo?  
 

Edited October 28, 2023 by HowzatFM

[beverage1982]

31 minutes ago, HowzatFM said:

I have something fairly similar

Reasons for LM on support role? Would Luiz not be more suited to RPM or Segundo?  
 

So the reason I changed Luiz is partly because the secundo and RPM now move into the AM position with the new positional play and that blocks the LW from coming in.

 

Also read a great piece on opta that basically profiles Luiz as a DM / bwm. His tackling is up there with best in league. I think it's easy to get caught up on his goal contributions (of his 5 this year 3 have been pens) but he arrives much later than a SV does. The DM is also hugely customisable but maintains the pivot.

 

iW on support just makes that digne overlap easier. Also staggers the attack.

 

But to be honest I tweak game to game. Favourite thing at mo is Mcginn goes to support and Diaby to attack duty for tough games.

 

Whole thing is working a treat soo far...

Edited October 28, 2023 by beverage1982

[HowzatFM]

1 minute ago, beverage1982 said:

So the reason I changed Luiz is partly because the secundo and RPM now move into the AM position with the new positional play and that blocks the LW from coming in.

 

Also read a great piece on opta that basically profiles Luiz as a DM / bwm. His tackling is up there with best in league. I think it's easy to get caught up on his goal contributions but he arrives much later than a SV does. The DM is also hugely customisable but maintains the pivot.

 

iW on support just makes that digne overlap easier. Also staggers the attack.

 

But to be honest I tweak game to game. Favourite thing at mo is Mcginn goes to support and Diaby to attack duty for tough games.

 

Whole thing is working a treat

I saw that article but didn’t really think of the new positional play aspects, something to consider. I currently have the IW(A) and WB(su), so will have a play around with both of those

Can’t decide on Run at Defence, might settle on telling forwards to dribble more as can help encourage the quicker direct transitions

I’m using Counter and I’ve also been using Counter press at times, more in games expected to win, find it gives a good balance between that occasional high press and returning to solid mid block 4-4-2 shape
 

There is also a nice article on Emery Positional play by Football Bunseki, released a week ago, which is worth a read and emphasises the flexibility and little tweaks that are made.
 

There is a base shape, but changes made game to game and within games

[beverage1982]

1 minute ago, HowzatFM said:

I saw that article but didn’t really think of the new positional play aspects, something to consider. I currently have the IW(A) and WB(su), so will have a play around with both of those

Can’t decide on Run at Defence, might settle on telling forwards to dribble more as can help encourage the quicker direct transitions

I’m using Counter and I’ve also been using Counter press at times, more in games expected to win, find it gives a good balance between that occasional high press and returning to solid mid block 4-4-2 shape
 

There is also a nice article on Emery Positional play by Football Bunseki, released a week ago, which is worth a read and emphasises the flexibility and little tweaks that are made.
 

There is a base shape, but changes made game to game and within games

Yeah read that. I like counter, I have both blank to add that flexibility. I have had counter press on at times too. But found on Positive that kind of counter press that we sometimes see in the opponent's half (which I'm not sure irl is a counter press like FM defines it) happens naturally so the TI is not needed.

[HowzatFM]

1 minute ago, beverage1982 said:

Yeah read that. I like counter, I have both blank to add that flexibility. I have had counter press on at times too. But found on Positive that kind of counter press that we sometimes see in the opponent's half (which I'm not sure irl is a counter press like FM defines it) happens naturally so the TI is not needed.

Yeah definitely both to have the flexibility with both

Knew slow pace down / short kicks to CBs  was required anyway, but the AZ game mid week when Emi had the ball for over 30 seconds confirmed any doubt, he took it to the extreme 😂

[beverage1982]

7 minutes ago, HowzatFM said:

Yeah definitely both to have the flexibility with both

Knew slow pace down / short kicks to CBs  was required anyway, but the AZ game mid week when Emi had the ball for over 30 seconds confirmed any doubt, he took it to the extreme 😂

Ha yeah that was one of the most surreal moments I've ever witnessed in a game.

 

Off to Luton game tomorrow so can do some firsthand scouting. 

[HowzatFM]

6 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Ha yeah that was one of the most surreal moments I've ever witnessed in a game.

 

Off to Luton game tomorrow so can do some firsthand scouting. 

Nice enjoy! I think Diaby is ready to really explode, hope that starts tomorrow 

Emery will probably have another small tactical change for us to ponder 😂

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by HowzatFM

[Hog]

18 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Think after much consideration (and a huge helping hand from Dan Gear over at the wonderful view from the Touchline) I've finally cracked this. Will probably do a separate thread once I've played a bit more but it's looking so much more like Villa IRL> 

Do you use any PIs on the players, especially MR and ML?

[HowzatFM]

43 minutes ago, Hog said:

Do you use any PIs on the players, especially MR and ML?

For the ML / MR - Sit Narrower, Cut inside with ball. Sometimes I am using Mark Specific Player on the opposition wingers, to get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used in tougher matches

[Hog]

9 minutes ago, HowzatFM said:

For the ML / MR - Sit Narrower, Cut inside with ball. Sometimes I am using Mark Specific Player on the opposition wingers, to get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used in tougher matches

Thanks for sharing, but I was asking about beverage's tactic.

If McGinn goes narrow in his tactic, there is no width on the right side. On the other hand, McGinn is not a natural wide player and he is left footed.

[beverage1982]

8 hours ago, Hog said:

Thanks for sharing, but I was asking about beverage's tactic.

If McGinn goes narrow in his tactic, there is no width on the right side. On the other hand, McGinn is not a natural wide player and he is left footed.

Tbf if you want info on how to set up a Villa tactic on FM then @HowzatFM is the person you want it from. Absolutely bang on with the PIs though sometimes I take sit narrower off McGinn.

 

And yes McGinn isn't a wide player and yes it's very narrow. That's kind of the point under Emery though. To condense the play into the middle. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by beverage1982

[Hog]

I watched the highlights against WH. The first goal is an exception to that rule as Zaniolo dribbles down the left wing and cuts it back for Watkins who assists Luiz.

It shows variation in Villa's play, partly due to Zaniolo's footedness. So if you produced a mirrored version of your tactic you could have McGinn narrower as an IWs and Zaniolo as a regular WMa. But that would mess with the strikers' footedness and positions as the support role would be on the left. No longer could Diaby come central onto his stronger foot to shoot or serve Watkins.

[HowzatFM]

It depends what profile of player is playing. McGinn comes a lot more central and cash is encouraged to get forward and provide the width on the right. But recreating that on FM is very difficult as McGinn is next to Luiz with Kamara acting as the Half back. 

When Bailey came on today, he played a lot wider and Cash slotted into the back 3. McGinn playing a narrower support role on the left with Digne overlapping. This is a lot easier to replicate on FM, when using Bailey as the WM(a), he won’t come narrow and inside every single time, so at times Sit narrower is removed, like real life it has to be flexible

Edited October 29, 2023 by HowzatFM

[HowzatFM]

Using a more attacking profile at Right Mid, this is what I have settled on. Very similar to @beverage1982, using the DM(su) was a great shout for the Luiz profile, it also added more balance to the left side and allows the WB to really get forward on attack duty providing the width.  Best results I have had so far in getting the 3-2-5 shape and play style Emery has implemented. 

DM(su) - take more risks, get further forward, tackle harder

WM(a) - dribble more, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

IW(su) - sit narrower, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

WB(a) - stay wider, dribble more (if using Moreno) 

LCB - stay wider

 

Counter, Counter press and tempo added / adjusted depending on the game situation

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by HowzatFM

[beverage1982]

11 hours ago, HowzatFM said:

Using a more attacking profile at Right Mid, this is what I have settled on. Very similar to @beverage1982, using the DM(su) was a great shout for the Luiz profile, it also added more balance to the left side and allows the WB to really get forward on attack duty providing the width.  Best results I have had so far in getting the 3-2-5 shape and play style Emery has implemented. 

DM(su) - take more risks, get further forward, tackle harder

WM(a) - dribble more, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

IW(su) - sit narrower, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

WB(a) - stay wider, dribble more (if using Moreno) 

LCB - stay wider

 

Counter, Counter press and tempo added / adjusted depending on the game situation

 

 

Loving the look of this. I'm leaning towards something very similar but with mcginn on support and kamara on support.

 

Great work though.t he man marking to achieve the back 6 is genius so I'm stealing that

 

[beverage1982]

Well the man marking worked a treat in this one (the 2 goals we conceded were from mistakes playing out from the back).

One thing I'm currently toying with is upping the width one notch. It means a little less central play from the wingers, but I'm just not seeing the kind of fullback overlaps we do IRL on the extreme narrowness, even with PIs. But notch it up and they're more frequent. 

Another one that will probably be a game by game change.

+

[newsuzanoebok]

To me this is a great issue, as my inside forwards or anyone i put to cut inside and other instructions tend to stay wide and just crosses lots of balls the same as wingers

[HowzatFM]

On 29/10/2023 at 20:19, HowzatFM said:

Using a more attacking profile at Right Mid, this is what I have settled on. Very similar to @beverage1982, using the DM(su) was a great shout for the Luiz profile, it also added more balance to the left side and allows the WB to really get forward on attack duty providing the width.  Best results I have had so far in getting the 3-2-5 shape and play style Emery has implemented. 

DM(su) - take more risks, get further forward, tackle harder

WM(a) - dribble more, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

IW(su) - sit narrower, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

WB(a) - stay wider, dribble more (if using Moreno) 

LCB - stay wider

 

Counter, Counter press and tempo added / adjusted depending on the game situation

 

 

To provide some small updates to what I am now using after some small tweaks

 

I have removed get further forward from the DM(su), this prevents him taking up the space I want the IW to move into. I've changed the DLF and BWM to support roles, with the BWM told to hold position. WB(A) changed to FB(A) - just looking at the role description (although primarily a defensive player, he must be prepared to get forward when the team needs extra width)I think a FB(A) is more suited to Emery and how Digne has been playing this season.  With the added PI(s) I am having much more success down the left. 

Current PIs:

FB(a) - stay wider, dribble more

LCB - stay wider

DM(su) - take more risks, , tackle harder

BWM(su) - hold position

WM(a) - dribble more, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

IW(su) - sit narrower, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

 

Still has to be a flexible tactic with Counter, Counter press and tempo added / adjusted depending on the game situation. At home against games I expect to win I have been using Much Higher Defensive Line, really allows the team to dominate with the back 3 sitting on the half way line in possession. 

Screenshot from the most recent game vs Luton when Bailey came on. Digne is wide left

 

Some screenshots below from FM on what I have been able to achieve

Average position with the ball shows the 3-2-5 / 3-2-4-1 shape acheived with the IW(su) cutting in and close to the striker

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by HowzatFM

[beverage1982]

23 hours ago, HowzatFM said:

To provide some small updates to what I am now using after some small tweaks

 

I have removed get further forward from the DM(su), this prevents him taking up the space I want the IW to move into. I've changed the DLF and BWM to support roles, with the BWM told to hold position. WB(A) changed to FB(A) - just looking at the role description (although primarily a defensive player, he must be prepared to get forward when the team needs extra width)I think a FB(A) is more suited to Emery and how Digne has been playing this season.  With the added PI(s) I am having much more success down the left. 

Current PIs:

FB(a) - stay wider, dribble more

LCB - stay wider

DM(su) - take more risks, , tackle harder

BWM(su) - hold position

WM(a) - dribble more, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

IW(su) - sit narrower, mark opposition winger (in tougher games and sometimes to see out results in get the 6-2-2 shape Emery has used)

 

Still has to be a flexible tactic with Counter, Counter press and tempo added / adjusted depending on the game situation. At home against games I expect to win I have been using Much Higher Defensive Line, really allows the team to dominate with the back 3 sitting on the half way line in possession. 

Screenshot from the most recent game vs Luton when Bailey came on. Digne is wide left

 

Some screenshots below from FM on what I have been able to achieve

Average position with the ball shows the 3-2-5 / 3-2-4-1 shape acheived with the IW(su) cutting in and close to the striker

 

Very good. I like how we've both arrived at near enough the same tactic, shows were both on the right track.

 

I finished my Beta season with this tactic winning Carabao cup, conference league and finishing second in the league.

 

Am looking forward to giving it a proper play through when the full fat game is released tomorrow.

 

Great work on this and thanks for sharing. Btw I have the starting embers of the Kamara HB version working too 

[HowzatFM]

36 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Very good. I like how we've both arrived at near enough the same tactic, shows were both on the right track.

 

I finished my Beta season with this tactic winning Carabao cup, conference league and finishing second in the league.

 

Am looking forward to giving it a proper play through when the full fat game is released tomorrow.

 

Great work on this and thanks for sharing. Btw I have the starting embers of the Kamara HB version working too 

Yes definitely! very nice!! 
 

ooo would like to see it once you have played more with it! I just couldn’t get the wide mid playing central consistently 

[beverage1982]

2 hours ago, HowzatFM said:

Yes definitely! very nice!! 
 

ooo would like to see it once you have played more with it! I just couldn’t get the wide mid playing central consistently 

The trick was to kind of give up on that bit tbh. Still plays really well though.

[beverage1982]

So after the full game release I've come up with a tactic that is somewhat different from where we were at before. 

There are a few reasons behind the changes.

1 - Defensively it just didn't look like Villa. There was just too much pressing. Ifg you watch us at the moment we barely press when we enter the rest defence, instead we sit in shape and try to force a mistake.
2 - Passing. Diving into the stats we are one of the league's most direct teams. Not long ball direct but breaking the lines direct. We still build up slow and considered but we're not afraid to break the lines. 
3 - Luiz. I just did;t like how he was playing for me as a DM and after reading a great bit of analysis on the premier league website I relaised he has to be a playmaker (he has the most passes into final third for us and third most long passes in the league). 

So I ended up on this.

 

It's been hugely effective so far, not least in the way that Luiz has played. 

The rest of the team is performing well too, though Ollie is hit and miss and will often get low ratings which is something to keep an eye on. 

Give this a try though, a key change defensively has been to take step up more off (I've realised it makes the defenders charge out when we want to hold the line) and the press less. It makes no sense with a high line, but then, neither does Emery's approach in real life and that works

[Birtan61]

@beverage1982 What do you think is the role of Watkins and Diaby up front in Emery's system?

[HowzatFM]

20 hours ago, Birtan61 said:

@beverage1982 What do you think is the role of Watkins and Diaby up front in Emery's system?

Watkins has certainly become at Complete Forward this season, 11 goals and 10 assists

[CapitalismReimagined]

Can anyone share what's the difference between an IW and a Winger with cut in with ball PI? 

[Bahnzo]

On 04/02/2024 at 06:26, CapitalismReimagined said:

Can anyone share what's the difference between an IW and a Winger with cut in with ball PI? 

I think the IW sits narrower and is more inclined to cut inside. No hard proof on that, just my idea from playing with both in my main tactic. 

[NineCloudNine]

On 04/02/2024 at 09:57, HowzatFM said:

Watkins has certainly become at Complete Forward this season, 11 goals and 10 assists

Really impressive numbers those.

Edited to add: that's from 23 PL games, no penalties, xG of 8.3 and xA of 7.2. That is absolutely top class.

Edited February 5 by NineCloudNine

[Birtan61]

I think the position of the 2nd striker is the AMC position. offensive midfield attack. Emery usually uses midfielders in that area. 
 

Morgan Rogers
Mcginn 
Tielemans 

[Birtan61]

[Birtan61]

What do you think McGinn's role should be?