How can I incentivise my team to make more horizontal and backwards passes?

[tk23]

I am not sure if it is just me struggling, but I took a break from the game for a couple of months and for some reason am really struggling with maintaining and retaining the ball. I can't figure out how get my team to make these horizontal and backwards passes that are necessary to shift the opponent block around in order to open up spaces and end up either a) hoofing the ball and praying a striker latches onto it or b) a player in midfield holds the ball until an opponent tackles them and counters. 

 

 If anyone has any ideas for tactics, combinations, player roles, instructions, please do let me know as tactics especially possession based ones are what make the game fun for me! Thanks!

[CARRERA]

Usually passing directness and tempo will dictate your build up style. I guess you tried that already.. 

However, you also have to consider, that your players will take promising opportunities anyway, no matter what you’ve set up. Passes over the top onto a striker is part of the FM 23 DNA. You can’t cancel them out completely.

[tk23]

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Usually passing directness and tempo will dictate your build up style. I guess you tried that already.. 

However, you also have to consider, that your players will take promising opportunities anyway, no matter what you’ve set up. Passes over the top onto a striker is part of the FM 23 DNA. You can’t cancel them out completely.

Yeah understood, my main issue is that my team on lets say much shorter passing and lower tempo is not able to move the ball in any other way other than vertically that generates space/chances, so playing at that speed/passing style generates virtually 0 chances. It seems the meta is shorter passing and much higher tempo which is a shame because it seems to be the only thing that works and is not my preferred way to play

[CARRERA]

38 minutes ago, tk23 said:

Yeah understood, my main issue is that my team on lets say much shorter passing and lower tempo is not able to move the ball in any other way other than vertically that generates space/chances, so playing at that speed/passing style generates virtually 0 chances. It seems the meta is shorter passing and much higher tempo which is a shame because it seems to be the only thing that works and is not my preferred way to play

Did you max out tactical familiarity? I can't confirm that my players primarily play vertical on these settings. 
Also have a look at your "in transition" settings. If counter is activated, your players will look for quick win opportunites and general movement / passing will be more progressive after winning back the ball.
Another thing I found helpful is to play more positional. You can achieve that by assigning more duties to achieve a more rigid shape.

[Johnny Ace]

58 minutes ago, tk23 said:

Yeah understood, my main issue is that my team on lets say much shorter passing and lower tempo is not able to move the ball in any other way other than vertically that generates space/chances, so playing at that speed/passing style generates virtually 0 chances. It seems the meta is shorter passing and much higher tempo which is a shame because it seems to be the only thing that works and is not my preferred way to play

Post your tactic up pal, I'm interested in what striker role/'s you're using 

I agree with @CARRERA in that one of this ME's short comings is creating chances via long balls, either direct over the dline or down the flanks when the role's and TI's you are using simply do not ask for that 

 

 

[dzek]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

I agree with @CARRERA in that one of this ME's short comings is creating chances via long balls, either direct over the dline or down the flanks when the role's and TI's you are using simply do not ask for that 

How do we achieve that? I want to maximised these ways of creating chances, with direct over the dline and down the flanks.

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, dzek said:

How do we achieve that? I want to maximised these ways of creating chances, with direct over the dline and down the flanks.

It doesn't take much effort to be honest, use a fast AF or wide attackers  

[dzek]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

It doesn't take much effort to be honest, use a fast AF or wide attackers  

I speak about the roles and TIs except AF 

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, tk23 said:

I am not sure if it is just me struggling, but I took a break from the game for a couple of months and for some reason am really struggling with maintaining and retaining the ball. I can't figure out how get my team to make these horizontal and backwards passes that are necessary to shift the opponent block around in order to open up spaces and end up either a) hoofing the ball and praying a striker latches onto it or b) a player in midfield holds the ball until an opponent tackles them and counters. 

 

 If anyone has any ideas for tactics, combinations, player roles, instructions, please do let me know as tactics especially possession based ones are what make the game fun for me! Thanks!

I agree that it's a bit of flaw in the current match engine.

That being said playing on a balanced mentality, dragging around the passing meters in the PIs, playing with a dlp, playing w/out a spearheading forward (esp AF), are all things you can do to create a more realistic passing style. Most people have "counter," and high tempo in their tactics as well, turning those down can help as well.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Cloud9

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, dzek said:

I speak about the roles and TIs except AF 

Honestly don't think it matters much, just play an AF/P/PF(A) and don't shove your team all the way up the pitch 

[dzek]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

don't shove your team all the way up the pitch 

Which means? Not having the rest of my players in advanced positions (excluding AF)?

[Johnny Ace]

Just now, dzek said:

Which means? Not having the rest of my players in advanced positions (excluding AF)?

Yes, pretty much 

We're trying to negate these issues for @tk23 but he hasn't posted his tactic yet 

If you want an AF scoring, I suggest you open a new thread 

[Johnny Ace]

One thing I will say on this is, player quality really has an effect. Obviously, better quality players will play more attractive football. My Bayern 2048 team play out my tactic a lot better than if I was to plug it in a Birmingham City, I see less of the direct balls and better interplay. The stand out attribute to me amongst this squad is Decisions, I assumed it would be Teamwork but the Teamwork is nothing out of the ordinary 

This is a nice vertical move but I'm playing a higher tempo and team mentality. SK to BPD to DM to AM to DLF. It's ends up wide and we don't create a chance from this, I just thought it was a nice bit of play where sometimes these sort of moves are lacking 

Spoiler

  Another nice move with horizontal and vertical play

Spoiler

 

So it is very possible, based on your setup 

[tk23]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

One thing I will say on this is, player quality really has an effect. Obviously, better quality players will play more attractive football. My Bayern 2048 team play out my tactic a lot better than if I was to plug it in a Birmingham City, I see less of the direct balls and better interplay. The stand out attribute to me amongst this squad is Decisions, I assumed it would be Teamwork but the Teamwork is nothing out of the ordinary 

This is a nice vertical move but I'm playing a higher tempo and team mentality. SK to BPD to DM to AM to DLF. It's ends up wide and we don't create a chance from this, I just thought it was a nice bit of play where sometimes these sort of moves are lacking 

  Reveal hidden contents

  Another nice move with horizontal and vertical play

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So it is very possible, based on your setup 

So here's how my tactic currently looks, I'm going for, as the name of the tactic suggests, suffocation of the opposition in their own half with very narrow players and close combinations with as much of the ball as possible. Unfortunately this translates to very low xG numbers but happily, equally low xG against us. Atalanta aren't slouches but then again they aren't the cream of the crop. I turned on hit early crosses and whipped crosses to try and emphasise some half space crosses in an attempt to stimulate some more chance creation ala KDB/Trent/David Silva etc but to no avail. I feel I may have to use W-A if I want to use IWBs as IF/IW dont keep the width that I really want, but then W-A dont make the movement I really want either. Its tough and I'm not too sure what to do here. I am getting the ball retention but I cant seem to find the right mix of ball retention and chance creation/denial. I've tried most everything in a vacuum but if anyone has any ideas for formation, roles, tactics ,instructions I am more than happy to try anything out. I do want to keep the essence of possessing the ball as much as possible.

[Johnny Ace]

13 minutes ago, tk23 said:

So here's how my tactic currently looks

Okay, playing Narrow with inverted fullbacks and forwards will mean you're playing ultra Narrow and horizontally, it'll be compressing things. 

Looking through the TIs, with the roles in mind, I imagine you do manage to keep possession very well but I think it's at the expense of attacking output 

So the roles they're mirrored, which can lead to samey looking attacks and lack mixing things up in attack

Are two BPD defenders really needed? They will look to be playing balls upfield, so I'd maybe try just the one here, a straight up CD(D) will will be playing the simpler passes  and helping keep the ball

Two IWBs, again, maybe just the one's enough but I'd be looking at using a Winger on that flank, then at the least a Fullback on the opposite flank with a an IF(S), you have Dribble Less active so even a Wingback here so he won't be so dribble crazy but will help to add a little width 

The HB is an excellent role to play out from the back with but it's also (IMO) the most defensive DM role, I'm not sure you need that with fairly conservative fullbacks and centre midfield, I'd be looking at a DM(S) which will help keep a combined tight knit midfield trio, you could also look at the Support duty playmaker roles here, but that may not be what you're looking for 

Then up front is looking decent, a DLF(A) may give you more goal scoring chances than on (S) but still look to drop in and link up play. I'd keep an IF and change the other flank, like mentioned, to a Winger, not an out an out Winger, but an opposite footed Winger so he will invert, just not much

TI's look sound, not sure you need the Underlaps or Hit Early Crosses for the play style you want. One I'd maybe add is WBIB, personally I'm not a big fan of it but when the ball's out wide, it can help cut down on crosses and encourage passes in field. Mentality and Tempo are TI's you can always lower, and see how they play out 

Because I've waffled loads, I quickly put together something I'd look at. I'm in a match so I can't clear the squad, sorry

 

Spoiler

 

[CARRERA]

1 hour ago, tk23 said:

I think there are way too many support duties. They will move closely together and allow narrow combinations, which is good if you have the space for it, but as you are trying to compress the space heavily with your defensive settings and build up rather slowly your own, there won't be much space to execute this. That's why the xG is very low.
What you want your players to do (and you stated that yourself already in the opening post), is make the opposition move. Therefore, you need your players to spread out and hold their assigned position. (No, don't add that Player Instruction :D)

[tk23]

44 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

I think there are way too many support duties. They will move closely together and allow narrow combinations, which is good if you have the space for it, but as you are trying to compress the space heavily with your defensive settings and build up rather slowly your own, there won't be much space to execute this. That's why the xG is very low.
What you want your players to do (and you stated that yourself already in the opening post), is make the opposition move. Therefore, you need your players to spread out and hold their assigned position. (No, don't add that Player Instruction :D)

Thing is, adding attack or defend duties in certain areas massively affects the ability to keep the ball resulting in low pass moves, directness etc. Whilst I may generate more xG from that, the chaos it induces is not conducive to greater results in the future, at least in real life I would play very controlled, progressing incrementally through the 1st and 2nd phases and camp outside the opposition box retaining the ball, counterpressing when we lose it and then keeping the opposition in their own goal essentially. Do you see my dilemma in terms of wanting that and perhaps its just a limitation of my own imagination, I havent exhausted every single role, position and formation including instructions yet so I was wondering if anyone had gotten to that point in some capacity

[CARRERA]

8 hours ago, tk23 said:

Thing is, adding attack or defend duties in certain areas massively affects the ability to keep the ball resulting in low pass moves, directness etc. Whilst I may generate more xG from that, the chaos it induces is not conducive to greater results in the future, at least in real life I would play very controlled, progressing incrementally through the 1st and 2nd phases and camp outside the opposition box retaining the ball, counterpressing when we lose it and then keeping the opposition in their own goal essentially. Do you see my dilemma in terms of wanting that and perhaps its just a limitation of my own imagination, I havent exhausted every single role, position and formation including instructions yet so I was wondering if anyone had gotten to that point in some capacity

Maybe I can put a different perspective on it. Isn't the ultimate goal of every team to score? The question is just how, right? Players in FM will always take certain opportunities like a real player would do. So setting up a team to just not take the opportunities the match engine offers, will lead to bad results or at least a low amount of goals. Its very hard if the Match Engine favors certain moves, and you try to play against it. Assigning duties to your setup doesn't necessarily result in more direct play or chaos. What it does create is movement, depth and space. You also have to consider, that more support duties will lead to more creative freedom, while having more duties will make your players act more rigid and therefore focus more on the actual instructions you gave them.

[tk23]

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Maybe I can put a different perspective on it. Isn't the ultimate goal of every team to score? The question is just how, right? Players in FM will always take certain opportunities like a real player would do. So setting up a team to just not take the opportunities the match engine offers, will lead to bad results or at least a low amount of goals. Its very hard if the Match Engine favors certain moves, and you try to play against it. Assigning duties to your setup doesn't necessarily result in more direct play or chaos. What it does create is movement, depth and space. You also have to consider, that more support duties will lead to more creative freedom, while having more duties will make your players act more rigid and therefore focus more on the actual instructions you gave them.

Kind of sad, won't be able to play how I want to but thanks for trying to help anyways

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, tk23 said:

Kind of sad, won't be able to play how I want to but thanks for trying to help anyways

There are limitations in the ME but try fixing the problems in the system first before giving up.

Your original setup has a lot of problems in it, which @Johnny Ace addresses. The two big ones being:

• no natural width (from roles or team width).
• no real threat to the opposition.

If you want to use a lot of support roles, that's fine, but you need to be more intentional about it. Utilizing PIs will help you a lot for specific styles of play. You can recruit specific/atypical attribute players for roles and manage their traits and you should be able to create a system you're happy with. 

Sort out the width, watch how it plays in the ME and make changes from there. There are flaws in the ME as detailed above which hopefully they will improve in FM24, but I think your current issues largely stem from your own setup. You certainly shouldn't feel pressure to exploit the match engine to have a successful tactic

Edited August 19, 2023 by Cloud9

[tk23]

8 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

There are limitations in the ME but try fixing the problems in the system first before giving up.

Your original setup has a lot of problems in it, which @Johnny Ace addresses. The two big ones being:

• no natural width (from roles or team width).
• no real threat to the opposition.

If you want to use a lot of support roles, that's fine, but you need to be more intentional about it. Utilizing PIs will help you a lot for specific styles of play. You can recruit specific/atypical attribute players for roles and manage their traits and you should be able to create a system you're happy with. 

Sort out the width, watch how it plays in the ME and make changes from there. There are flaws in the ME as detailed above which hopefully they will improve in FM24, but I think your current issues largely stem from your own setup. You certainly shouldn't feel pressure to exploit the match engine to have a successful tactic

I know what you mean, this tactic is after testing probably hundreds of different tactics, adding width with these instructions/roles doesn't result in the success that I am looking for unfortunately, so I was trying to experiment with narrowness/overloading the centre. I don't want to blame the ME but it has made it exceptionally hard to find a way to be able to play the way I want unfortunately

[Johnny Ace]

19 minutes ago, tk23 said:

I know what you mean, this tactic is after testing probably hundreds of different tactics, adding width with these instructions/roles doesn't result in the success that I am looking for unfortunately

It's difficult to think of a team that pull off extreme narrowness in real life football though, so trying to apply it to a football management sim, I'd expect you to run into problems regardless. Width, space, movement, penetration are all part and parcel of football but trying to push one to an extreme rarely ends well, it's about finding the balance you're happy with  

 

24 minutes ago, tk23 said:

 I was trying to experiment with narrowness/overloading the centre. I don't want to blame the ME but it has made it exceptionally hard to find a way to be able to play the way I want unfortunately

Try and think of the opposite, going narrow (via roles and TIs) pulls your players narrow as well as the opposition, it overcrowds the centre of the pitch where you want to make an impact. By going wider (with roles and TIs) you're setting your players further apart, the opposition need to cover these players and the space it opens up, leaving the centre of the pitch, less crowded. Pep is a well known user of doing this, by using his wide attackers to stretch the pitch to open up the space in front of goal. Plenty of other managers use wingbacks or a combination of both for the width    

[tk23]

23 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

It's difficult to think of a team that pull off extreme narrowness in real life football though, so trying to apply it to a football management sim, I'd expect you to run into problems regardless. Width, space, movement, penetration are all part and parcel of football but trying to push one to an extreme rarely ends well, it's about finding the balance you're happy with  

 

Try and think of the opposite, going narrow (via roles and TIs) pulls your players narrow as well as the opposition, it overcrowds the centre of the pitch where you want to make an impact. By going wider (with roles and TIs) you're setting your players further apart, the opposition need to cover these players and the space it opens up, leaving the centre of the pitch, less crowded. Pep is a well known user of doing this, by using his wide attackers to stretch the pitch to open up the space in front of goal. Plenty of other managers use wingbacks or a combination of both for the width    

Yeah I figured, just wanted to try something new with the narrowness though in hindsight it didnt make a lot of sense. Pep is ultimately what I'm going for obviously so I was thinking that I would have the width narrow to make passing options shorter distances and then use W-A to keep them wide and in space but in reality it just doesnt work

[Johnny Ace]

51 minutes ago, tk23 said:

Yeah I figured, just wanted to try something new with the narrowness though in hindsight it didnt make a lot of sense. Pep is ultimately what I'm going for obviously so I was thinking that I would have the width narrow to make passing options shorter distances and then use W-A to keep them wide and in space but in reality it just doesnt work

At least you're tried it out  I didn't catch you were using a Winger but that's a good way to go, at least one player on either flank giving the team wide options like FB/IWB and a Winger one side, WB and IF the other   

[tk23]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

At least you're tried it out  I didn't catch you were using a Winger but that's a good way to go, at least one player on either flank giving the team wide options like FB/IWB and a Winger one side, WB and IF the other   

Yeah, after all thats the scientific method! Thanks for your advice I appreciate it

[Johnny Ace]

2 hours ago, tk23 said:

Pep is ultimately what I'm going for obviously

Was just checking out some heatmaps from the weekend and you can see how Pep uses Walker and Grealish for width even as a well known narrow manager, just thought it was interesting  

 

 

[jondragonborn]

Em 18/08/2023 em 09:57, tk23 disse:

how get my team to make these horizontal and backwards passes

Someone once explains here in this forum a little rule I always apply:

As the player mentality increase, his width of view decreases.

Think of a player with a 360º degree view. He can look forward, backwards and sideways. Therefore, he can pass in any direction.

Then, reduce his width of view to 180º. Now he can pass sideways and forwards (also, at diagonals).

Now, reduce his width of view to 45º. He can pass forwards and diagonals.

Thats more or less what happens with players mentalities. If your players are attacking, they will only see forward. 

By your tactic, your team have a Positive mentality and most of your players have Support Roles. That put their mentality a little bit forward. They get the ball and think to go ahead.

What I would do, first and foremost, would be to decrease the Positive mentality to Cautious. Then, I would watch a game at least at compreensive mode. But, I would try to watch it full. You will see if they do that backwards passes you want.

After that, I would try to put a little bit more of dynamism in their passes with some changes.

For instance, if you put a Regista at DM, he will act like a "pendulum". He will get close to the players on each flank, get the ball and make a long pass to the other side.

Thats a good place to start:

• Change team mentality to Cautious
• See game at full time mode
• Try Regista at DM (specially with "Like to switch flanks" PPM
• Try to make Fullbacks get forward, but not hold the ball to much

Edited August 21, 2023 by jondragonborn
To put more emphasis

[tk23]

20 hours ago, jondragonborn said:

Someone once explains here in this forum a little rule I always apply:

As the player mentality increase, his width of view decreases.

Think of a player with a 360º degree view. He can look forward, backwards and sideways. Therefore, he can pass in any direction.

Then, reduce his width of view to 180º. Now he can pass sideways and forwards (also, at diagonals).

Now, reduce his width of view to 45º. He can pass forwards and diagonals.

Thats more or less what happens with players mentalities. If your players are attacking, they will only see forward. 

By your tactic, your team have a Positive mentality and most of your players have Support Roles. That put their mentality a little bit forward. They get the ball and think to go ahead.

What I would do, first and foremost, would be to decrease the Positive mentality to Cautious. Then, I would watch a game at least at compreensive mode. But, I would try to watch it full. You will see if they do that backwards passes you want.

After that, I would try to put a little bit more of dynamism in their passes with some changes.

For instance, if you put a Regista at DM, he will act like a "pendulum". He will get close to the players on each flank, get the ball and make a long pass to the other side.

Thats a good place to start:

• Change team mentality to Cautious
• See game at full time mode
• Try Regista at DM (specially with "Like to switch flanks" PPM
• Try to make Fullbacks get forward, but not hold the ball to much

Arteta and Pep's DM rarely make long range passes, they are there for continuous recycling of possession and to keep the ball no matter what, to play these huge risky switches is kind of against what I'm going for but I appreciate the Cautious idea!

[jondragonborn]

4 horas atrás, tk23 disse:

Arteta and Pep's DM rarely make long range passes, they are there for continuous recycling of possession and to keep the ball no matter what, to play these huge risky switches is kind of against what I'm going for but I appreciate the Cautious idea!

Yeah, sorry, I havent realized you wanted to play like them. What I had understand is that you wanted to shift the opposition to one side and the explore the open space at the other. In my opinion, the regista is the better dude to explore that space quickly, but if that doesnt make sense to your game plan, then he wont work for you. An Half-back, DLP-DE or even DLP-Support can work better. Basically, any DM role that you could tinker to make short passes is the best option.

[jondragonborn]

5 horas atrás, fraudiola disse:

then there should be a different TI for passing risk and passing direction. say i want my players to attempt more risky passes without everything being forward forward forward. 

Yep, theres why its always mentioned that we should be careful tinkering with player mentality and instructions. Its not always clear what everything does. For instance, if you want your team to attempt more risky passes without rushing forward, then your team mentality shouldnt be positive.

A positive team mentality = your team will get the ball and start attacking.

Lets say, for instance, your team has a Attacking Winger. He should get to the byline and cross to the area. Thats his play. If your team gets the ball back and the dude its open, its very likely a positive mentality team will try to pass to him. 

Yout team get the ball and think "Lets go attack. How we do it?". If the dude its open and its a viable option, the ball goes to him.

Now, lets say you want to play like OP. Wants to buid up play more careful. At that exact situation, your team mentality should be negative (Cautious or less). That way, when the team gets the ball, you will regroup, make safe passes, get out of the pressing and build up play to attack with more control.

If you still want to attempt risky passes at that stage, the best option is to create a build-up plan to free up a creator role (like a mezzala, AP, etc) with the PI Try more risky passes. When the ball gets to him, he'll be making these penetrative passes.

[DarJ]

What I've learnt playing with a bad teams is that some players will play the ball long for no reason regardless of what you do and these players are usually those with poor composure so in my save I've had to make some sacrifices by going for defenders with good enough composure but poor jumping reach because I want to play short from the back and you can't really find a player with everything at semi-pro level.

I've not looked at you tactic in detail but with the amount of support players you have the "hold shape" instruction is your friend.

[DarJ]

@fraudiola for me to keep enjoying playing FM I have accepted the fact that there are somethings that don't work how they would IRL so I just ignore them and play according to the rules of the game