4-3-3 Gegenpress Advice

[psucolonel]

I am very new to football tactics, so any and all advice is welcome.  I am just getting started on building my very first tactic.  As you can see here, it's a 4-3-3 Gegenpress style approach.  Of course I am already doubting myself lol.  A little advice here would be fantastic.  The tactic calls for the wingbacks to overlap, yet I have both W roles as support.  In the possession area, I have designated the wingers to overlap.  

Here is where I am doubting myself:  Is this a conflict?  I realize very often the tactics automatically won't let you use hyper-conflicting tactical instructions, but here something just feels off....but then again, it might not be either.  Any thoughts?

[psucolonel]

This is what I have settled on...putting in a false nine striker and allowing the two forwards to attack.  They should cut inside, allowing the wingbacks to move up on the flanks.   I hope this works.  My LWB is a pretty good player too, so I let him dribble more.  

Edited January 26, 2023 by psucolonel

[Overmars]

How is it working out?

I have played a ton of games with the 4-3-3 in many versions of FM, and in FM23, I've noticed far fewer crosses than ever from the wingbacks. They used to cross 10-20 times a match in older FMs, but now they might not cross a single time. When putting them on attack, they might be pushed to cross more (I think that role's default is cross more often), but I haven't noticed too much of a difference. What I have noticed is that the wingbacks will touch the ball a lot and simply recycle possession. It's a bit of a dull attack really. My wingbacks are more threatening when launching risky passes from deep early on in possession, kind of like the passes Alexander-Arnold or even Van Dijk at CD might try for Liverpool. When they're not doing that, they're going a dozen games or more without an assist.

As for the F9(s), it hasn't worked for me. DLF(a) and AF(a) seemed more consistently able to contribute. Another thing that worked for me was asking my inside forwards to sit narrow in their instructions. This might just be a game-y thing since they will overload the central area, but they get much more involved in goalscoring that way. Either way, my inside forwards end up being my main playmakers, so dribbling, passing, vision, first touch, and decisions all seem to be a big bonus with those wide attackers in FM23.

Another thing about the front three is that it really helps if they are good in the air. Even if you select low crosses and a possession-based system, there will be plenty of aerial challenges for your front three to win. Everyone kind of loves lobbing a pass to them instead of playing it to feet.

My final note is about your midfield three. I think it's a bit conservative, though with attacking wingbacks it seems sensible. Still, because those attacking wingbacks seem more apt to pass backwards then generate serious chances, I feel it helps a lot to have an incisive midfielder such as a CM(a) providing that extra body in the box. Another idea if your attack feels stale is to experiment with the IWB(a) role. They still provide width in passing attacks, but they will find their way into scoring positions for a handful of goals each season.

[herne79]

A few things here.

1) There is no substitute for trying it out and seeing what’s good / what’s bad during matches.  People can give you all kinds of advice and different opinions but at the end of the day if your tactic gets results that’s all that matters.  Understanding how it works of course is a different matter.

That being said:

2) Personally I wouldn’t set up my player’s roles like that.  I like variety in attack (with the same roles down both flanks you wouldn’t get it, albeit with a little variety due to different player’s attributes) and both flanks with all 4 players given an attack duty could lead you to being very exposed to counter attacks.  

3) I’d also want to pay attention to how player roles combine with player attributes/Traits.  For example, giving a Wingback (default player instruction to get forward often) an attack duty will make him very forward thinking.  Now combine that with a player who may have the Trait to get forward often and suddenly you have a player who probably isn’t very defence minded.  It’s also of note that the Overlap instruction makes your wingbacks even more forward thinking.

Now there’s wrong with that so long as you are aware of the potential issue and you have a plan B to address the problem if it occurs.

4) The tactic is just one side of the coin.  The players are the flip side.  What I mean by that is the tactic asks your players to do certain things but it’s the player’s own abilities (attributes and Traits) that enable them to actually carry out your instructions to any degree of competence.  So here you are asking your players to play in a gegenpress (ie., high intensity) style - are they actually capable of doing that week in week out?  Do they have the physical and mental capacity to maintain such a style and recover well between matches?

I know you’re new to the game and I’m probably getting a little ahead of myself here as I’m touching on more advanced mechanics.  I mentioned in your other thread that starting small and building from there can be a good beginner strategy whereas here you seem to be jumping in the deep end somewhat.  Nothing wrong with that, just be prepared for old soaks like me to start confusing you with talk of variety, combinations and plan Bs .

[psucolonel]

All good stuff to consider..thank you for your input!!  Very much appreciated!!

[dunk105]

6 hours ago, Overmars said:

How is it working out?

I have played a ton of games with the 4-3-3 in many versions of FM, and in FM23, I've noticed far fewer crosses than ever from the wingbacks. They used to cross 10-20 times a match in older FMs, but now they might not cross a single time. When putting them on attack, they might be pushed to cross more (I think that role's default is cross more often), but I haven't noticed too much of a difference. What I have noticed is that the wingbacks will touch the ball a lot and simply recycle possession. It's a bit of a dull attack really. My wingbacks are more threatening when launching risky passes from deep early on in possession, kind of like the passes Alexander-Arnold or even Van Dijk at CD might try for Liverpool. When they're not doing that, they're going a dozen games or more without an assist.

As for the F9(s), it hasn't worked for me. DLF(a) and AF(a) seemed more consistently able to contribute. Another thing that worked for me was asking my inside forwards to sit narrow in their instructions. This might just be a game-y thing since they will overload the central area, but they get much more involved in goalscoring that way. Either way, my inside forwards end up being my main playmakers, so dribbling, passing, vision, first touch, and decisions all seem to be a big bonus with those wide attackers in FM23.

Another thing about the front three is that it really helps if they are good in the air. Even if you select low crosses and a possession-based system, there will be plenty of aerial challenges for your front three to win. Everyone kind of loves lobbing a pass to them instead of playing it to feet.

My final note is about your midfield three. I think it's a bit conservative, though with attacking wingbacks it seems sensible. Still, because those attacking wingbacks seem more apt to pass backwards then generate serious chances, I feel it helps a lot to have an incisive midfielder such as a CM(a) providing that extra body in the box. Another idea if your attack feels stale is to experiment with the IWB(a) role. They still provide width in passing attacks, but they will find their way into scoring positions for a handful of goals each season.

Early crosses is your friend here, its better but if you're a dominating team and teams invariably put 10 men behind the ball it loses it effectiveness.

Absolutely right about the front 3 Rashidi has identified that the meta is tall, fast forwards. Which is a shame as it ruins variety.

[psucolonel]

When I am asking for suggestions in terms of picking a squad, what is the difference between "selection advice" and "quick pick"?  They seem to yield slightly different results, so there must be some sort of difference.  I get the the selection advice is from a staff member...but what is "quick pick"?

[herne79]

17 hours ago, dunk105 said:

Absolutely right about the front 3 Rashidi has identified that the meta is tall, fast forwards. Which is a shame as it ruins variety.

It doesn’t ruin variety at all.  If you want to play with a more realistic front 3 you can absolutely do so, it just might require a little more thought because you won’t be taking advantage of an ME exploit.  I guarantee you Rashidi can also tell you how to do that 👍.

[Cloud9]

10 hours ago, psucolonel said:

When I am asking for suggestions in terms of picking a squad, what is the difference between "selection advice" and "quick pick"?  They seem to yield slightly different results, so there must be some sort of difference.  I get the the selection advice is from a staff member...but what is "quick pick"?

Quick pick is just the best player fit for each role you've selected in the tactic. Each player has a number of suitability for a role based on the highlighted attributed. 

Selection advice is based on the coach you're getting the advice from, default is the assistant manager. He'll give you advice and it'll say why, for example lacking match fitness or the player is quick, which generally won't be super helpful. They're all things you're better off trusting your own eyes and judgement on. 

 

[psucolonel]

Thank you!

[Cloud9]

On 25/01/2023 at 18:16, psucolonel said:

This is what I have settled on...putting in a false nine striker and allowing the two forwards to attack.  They should cut inside, allowing the wingbacks to move up on the flanks.   I hope this works.  My LWB is a pretty good player too, so I let him dribble more.  

couple tweaks:

try a DLF instead of the F9, I've found that role is best w an SS attacking behind him.

Flip the WB to support, SK to support. BBM has roam on him, it'll work only if he's a superstar. 

[psucolonel]

OK...I am refining here as I go...this is what I am now doing.

[psucolonel]

I am enjoying delving into tactics, but I wish there were some good YouTube videos to help me out.  Most of them seem to be unstoppable and broken type tactics…plus I’m not into just ripping off tactics without understanding how and why they work.  I wish there was something more like a tactical cs workshop or tutorial instead of what I’m finding.  More like a “master class” type video.

[baggsie]

7 hours ago, psucolonel said:

I am enjoying delving into tactics, but I wish there were some good YouTube videos to help me out.  Most of them seem to be unstoppable and broken type tactics…plus I’m not into just ripping off tactics without understanding how and why they work.  I wish there was something more like a tactical cs workshop or tutorial instead of what I’m finding.  More like a “master class” type video.

take a look at some of these videos, i find them very helpful (1) BusttheNet Gaming - YouTube

[psucolonel]

Well I finally arrived to my first match day (friendly) and I’m up against a very inferior squad.  I’m leading 3-0 at the half though, so while it’s not any great test, I’m still very happy with my team. (For now

[psucolonel]

I spoke too soon....as good as the first half was, the second was crap.  Still won 3-2...but conceded two goals and didn't score anymore.  Players' seemed complacent after scoring 2 goals inside the first 15 minutes.  The first goal came in the first minute.

[Tyburn]

Just to add to the “tall player” discussion. Moukouko and Endrick as AF’s are on fire at the moment in my network save. Both leading the line in 433’s. 4 seasons in and they’re flying. Both under 6ft. Endrick by quite a bit 😁

Of course, these are elite players, but playing to their strengths (pace), we’re not noticing any output drop off due to ME deficiencies.

Having said that, Nunez (and obviously Haaland) are also kicking butt. But all are comparably similar output wise. Apart from Haaland. He’s a bloody alien.

[Panosgeo79]

Hi man

Just to say my opinion

The first formation is too attacking that you will find yourself exposed

Furthermore you won't find space to attack.

The second  is even worse defending.

What you have designed suits in both cases to direct football.

So the the first question you have to answer yourself is my team able to play attacking risk football?

Is it one of the favorites in your championship?

Do you have dominant players for a dominant style of play?

Cause gegenpress is a dominant style and your players must be really capable to play it.

433 is an excellent formation for such dominant style but more for possession based tactics.Not that you can't play gegenpress but I believe 4231 suits better.

In my humble opinion and from my little experience if you want to play high risking football you must balance your instructions properly.

What I mean?

You are doing the same mistakes I was doing in the past.

My advice remove every team instruction and while watching the game add one a time to spot the changes during games.

You won't realise what these are without testing them one a time and see it during matches.Plus you dont need so many TI to play.

The same do with player instructions.

Then balance things

With positive risk choise you need to consider how many attacking duties you will put.Since there will be no space behind to attack while there will be few people to defend.

433 is a style that it's perfect for pressing high.But if you combine it with positive risk and attacking duties...then be sure your team has to be really good.

Positive risk also suits better to overloading or interchanging football which means more support duties to cooperate together to open space or to overload the opponents third.

So I would start by changing some duties

SK- support duty..you dont need at duty there

WBs- both of them will go forward runs really often.No need to send them early attacking.They have to defend also remember

CDs- in my opinion you dont need 2 BPDs.Just one.Balance is the key.Not force things.Have someone to pass safe also there to more advanced guys and not hurry up things.So  1 of them to keep it simple,so put an CDd there

DM - with aggressive WBs going forward what a better role than a HB in that position.Especially in positive mentality

CMs right-  carrilero  is fine .Just put him with forward runs

CMs left - box to box midfielder but with forward runs too.

In 433 you have in front of the CMs a huge space.its important 1 or even both of them (my choose always) to run into it with forward runs 

AM right - IFa the best scorer and the one that the others find him with direct passes just to mix things

AM left - IFs the other scorer but reaching the penalty area at different times while can help in overloading the area.Remember we have a WBs and a BTB midfielder with forward runs...Since I am playing older FM version IFs has no locked forward runs.So if it is the same  dont chance it.Leave it as it is WITH NO FRs.Or otherwise put there an IW

ST just a PF in support duty to do the job and help in build up

All of the above in positive risk style playing dominant and pressing hard with high lines

Also I would try to sign a carrilero with good passing ,vision,decisions,technique and flair.the better the best

Then you will have an industrial play maker there

 

As about TI i would start by playing shorter passing since you will have a lot of overloading game and be more disciplined just to balance slightly things

DL and LOE high ( for FM 22 and 21 at least but you got the idea in FM23)

No counter

No counterpress especially in the beginning.Put it there during the game and how the things are going 

Remember again to play is such attacking risk with a dominant formation you need capable players according to your league

Hope that I helped

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Panosgeo79

[Sunstrikuuu]

On 26/01/2023 at 03:38, Overmars said:

 Another idea if your attack feels stale is to experiment with the IWB(a) role. They still provide width in passing attacks, but they will find their way into scoring positions for a handful of goals each season.

I'm struggling to get my IWB(a)s to do much of anything, to be honest.  I've been playing a 4-3-3 with attacking inverted wingbacks for the first 45 minutes and supporting fullbacks for the second 45 minutes, and I can't see a difference in their average position without the ball.  They're much wider and much deeper than they were in '22.  I haven't noticed a great deal of attacking verve out of regular wingbacks on attack either, mind.  It does kind of feel like attacking runs from deep have been toned down.

[psucolonel]

In my second friendly match using my own created tactics, I won 18-0.  Details and screenshots to follow.  This can’t be normal! Lol

[psucolonel]

OK, again, this 4-3-3 is something I created on my own, and I wouldn't consider it a super tactic, or a "broken" tactic.  I was absolutely shocked.  I did pre-load the stock 4-3-3 DM wide, but then just modified some of the roles and the team instructions a little.  I didn't touch any of the player instructions.  I really didn't think anything like this could even happen.  I was obviously playing a very small club and therefore an obviously inferior opponent...but wow.  

[herne79]

8 hours ago, psucolonel said:

In my second friendly match using my own created tactics, I won 18-0.  Details and screenshots to follow.  This can’t be normal! Lol

 

23 minutes ago, psucolonel said:

I was obviously playing a very small club and therefore an obviously inferior opponent...but wow.  

It's pretty typical when playing against a small club in a friendly.  I'd be more worried if I didn't score so many in such matches .

Friendlies tend to be more about player fitness and team cohesion - preparing your team for the season ahead.  You can still learn tactical lessons from friendlies, especially against teams that aren't quite so low level, but you'll get a better feel for your system once competitive matches start.