4-4-2 is NEVER success, maybe its a bug ?

[icedgate]

I have been using 4-4-2 in Fm21, and now FM23, I never won all the the time even against very very weak team when using 4-4-2 but 4-3-2-1 

 

is there anyone free the same or any successful 4-4-2 of you guys?

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by icedgate

[Aandy]

Probably reflect top-flight football IRL. You don't see 442 being used much at all these days as a DM double-pivot in a 4231 or tight midfield 3 in a 433 will leave your midfield outnumbered and after all, it is in midfield where games are won or lost.

Also looking at your tactic I don't think your central midfield is very well balanced. You've got 2 DLPs on support which means you have two players doing the exact same job. DLPs will sit deeper but they aren't necessarily too focussed on protecting your back 4. If you do want to persist with a 442 perhaps consider changing one of your CMs to a defensive role. 

I notice you also have ASM as a winger, which is fine because he can fly, but you also have overlap right. Asking for the overlap doesn't necessarily do what you think it does; instead it instructs ASM to hold up the ball and wait for Trippier to bomb on, which he won't be doing so much as a FB on support. Maybe consider getting rid of the overlap and allowing ASM to do his thing down that flank. 

[icedgate]

9 minutes ago, Aandy said:

Probably reflect top-flight football IRL. You don't see 442 being used much at all these days as a DM double-pivot in a 4231 or tight midfield 3 in a 433 will leave your midfield outnumbered and after all, it is in midfield where games are won or lost.

Also looking at your tactic I don't think your central midfield is very well balanced. You've got 2 DLPs on support which means you have two players doing the exact same job. DLPs will sit deeper but they aren't necessarily too focussed on protecting your back 4. If you do want to persist with a 442 perhaps consider changing one of your CMs to a defensive role. 

I notice you also have ASM as a winger, which is fine because he can fly, but you also have overlap right. Asking for the overlap doesn't necessarily do what you think it does; instead it instructs ASM to hold up the ball and wait for Trippier to bomb on, which he won't be doing so much as a FB on support. Maybe consider getting rid of the overlap and allowing ASM to do his thing down that flank. 

opps sorry, I post a wrong pic, instead of 2 DLPs but actually 1

 

I wanna have a 4-4-2 formation like as when Bobby Robson in charge in Newcastle or 2015/2016 Leicester under Claudio Ranieri.... I dont know how to make it happen...

 

but still it cant win as easy as I use 4-3-2-1

[Aandy]

Oh it can definitely be done! There is no right way of playing this game and with the right players and instructions, any tactic can work!

If you want to emulate Ranieri's Leicester you probably want to think about being quite cautious in your approach. They had extremely deep lines with two hulking no-nonsense centrebacks in Huth and Morgan. They had Kante sweeping up everything in front of the defence. Drinkwater was the progressive passer so there's your DLP. Okazaki was the defensive legs (pressing forward?) with deep and early direct balls for Vardy to run on to.

Albrighton on the wing played as a very conventional winger but without the pace to take anyone on, so perhaps a winger on support? His crossing and long passing were both superb so that allowed him to side wide and fairly deep to rake those long passes in behind for Vardy.

Mahrez was the wild card wasn't he on the left, cutting inside. Definitely inverted winger, maybe even starting a little pushed up in an AML position, with Fuchs behind him.

It's notable that Leicester scored 67 league goals that season and 41 of those came from Vardy and Mahrez. 

In terms of basic positions I'd have:

GK(D)

RB - FB(S)

DB - NCB(D) 

LB - WB(S)

RM - W(S)

CM(R) - DLP(S), or maybe a RPM

DM(L) - BBM(D)

LM - IW(A), or maybe pushed up to AML as I mentioned

ST(R) - AF(A)

ST(L) - PF(S)

Instructions I'd probably consider:

Cautious

More direct passing

Wide

Pass into space

Early crosses

Low crosses

Regroup

Counter

Low defensive line

Mid-block

[icedgate]

10 minutes ago, Aandy said:

Oh it can definitely be done! There is no right way of playing this game and with the right players and instructions, any tactic can work!

If you want to emulate Ranieri's Leicester you probably want to think about being quite cautious in your approach. They had extremely deep lines with two hulking no-nonsense centrebacks in Huth and Morgan. They had Kante sweeping up everything in front of the defence. Drinkwater was the progressive passer so there's your DLP. Okazaki was the defensive legs (pressing forward?) with deep and early direct balls for Vardy to run on to.

Albrighton on the wing played as a very conventional winger but without the pace to take anyone on, so perhaps a winger on support? His crossing and long passing were both superb so that allowed him to side wide and fairly deep to rake those long passes in behind for Vardy.

Mahrez was the wild card wasn't he on the left, cutting inside. Definitely inverted winger, maybe even starting a little pushed up in an AML position, with Fuchs behind him.

It's notable that Leicester scored 67 league goals that season and 41 of those came from Vardy and Mahrez. 

In terms of basic positions I'd have:

GK(D)

RB - FB(S)

DB - NCB(D) 

LB - WB(S)

RM - W(S)

CM(R) - DLP(S), or maybe a RPM

DM(L) - BBM(D)

LM - IW(A), or maybe pushed up to AML as I mentioned

ST(R) - AF(A)

ST(L) - PF(S)

Instructions I'd probably consider:

Cautious

More direct passing

Wide

Pass into space

Early crosses

Low crosses

Regroup

Counter

Low defensive line

Mid-block

so that style is : Route One, I guess? or Fluid counter attack ? 

[frukox]

@icedgate You're totally wrong. Now I manage a team in Ukranian Second Division. I only have two good defenders, two good midfielders and a striker who can score some goals. 

Now that I know what I have at my disposal, I decided to go with a bog standard 442 and it really works well. Let me show you the tactic first:

                     SKS

FBS        CDD    CDD    FBA

WMA     RPM    BBM    WMS

               AFA     DLFS

My team is above average at best so I adopted a normal approach.

Mentality: Balanced

In-possession instructions: None

In-transition instructions: Distribute to CBs and Take Short Kicks

Out-of-possession instructions: Higher DL, More Urgent, Tighter Marking, Use Offside Trap, Get Stuck In

PIs: 

FBA-Stay Wider

WMS- Sit Narrower, Run Wide

WMA- Stay Wider, Run Wide

My game plan is to play out of defence as much as possible although they can prefer direct balls to the strikers or the right midfielder at times. When the opposition has the ball, I try to win the ball in the middle of the park like Yorkshire terrriers. Then, the team either use the left flank for a cross to the far post, or a through ball for the strikers to run onto or a cross/cutback from the right midfielder or even an odd ball over the top by the right fullback.

As @Cleon said, every tactic needs support, movement, penetration, width, mobility, and creativity and my plan provides all of them. 

Support- All players have close passing options when they are on the ball. RPM is pretty crucial here.

Movement- The WMA keep the channels open for AFA by running wide

The WMS opens up some space for FBA

DLF drops deep to support the midfield and creates decisions crises between defenders

AFA provides the much needed height for the creative players behind him.

FBS is always an outlet for WMA or unmarked at times for a deep cross or a cutback.

Penetration- AFA attacks the space behind the space, FBA and WMA attacks the wings while our BBM, DLF and RPM are runners from the deep and you can't mark the players that move.

Width- It comes from the FBA and WMA. They stretch the opposition horizontally by staying wider.

Creativity- FBA-WMS- RPM or BBM -->third-man run combination

DLF/WMS-RPM-AFA--> third man run combination

FBA/WMA- a cross/cutback

WMS-RPM- through balls, diagonal balls

WMA-AFA 1vs1 duel

Mobility- The midfielders roam the area in front of the opposition defence at will to provide the crucial support to the players around them.

Pretty simple, right? 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by frukox

[sugarbear0511]

I was using a 442 narrow diamond quite successfully in my newcastle save before switching to an asymmetric 4231. If you're trying to go with a flat 442 I think in this ME you have to use double DMs.

Edited November 19, 2022 by sugarbear0511

[mikcheck]

@frukoxI like your setup, I'm also using a flat 442 (FM21 tho). But having 2 roaming players in the middle of a flat 442 is too risky, so they must be really hard workers and versatile (both attacking and defending) to make it work

Edited November 20, 2022 by mikcheck

[frukox]

@mikcheckNo,  I don't agree with you. Again:) My team moves up and down together. I am rarely caught on a counterattack. They give me what I need in my system: constant support(passing options everywhere) and unpredictable runs into the penalty area or being a danger from distance if they withdraw deep into defence. Don't hang up upon attributes so much. I have a great crosser and set-piece taker aka my left back who plays as an inside forward on the right flank naturally:) Instead, look at the roles you desperately need in your system. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by frukox

[EnigMattic1]

My 2 cents. I wouldn't have 2 attacking roles up front with both wide players also attacking.

Every time I have tried a 442, I used Fergie as a template. Giggs on the left was attacking, whereas Beckham would cut inside or support with crosses and Neville on the overlap. The LB would sit back more often than not as Giggs would be going forward on a regular basis.

Keane was a ball winner and Scholes was a playmaker of sorts. 

A traditional front 2 was a target forward/poacher combo which could be done as such, or as a variety of different combinations.

[mikcheck]

@frukoxwhen you face a team that plays with a 433 for example, would you ask your supporting forward to mark their DMC, to help your 2 midfielders? Or do you prefer him to be available for the counter attacks?

Edited November 20, 2022 by mikcheck

[frukox]

@mikcheckNo, I wouldn't change anything because I trust in my plan-My DLF automatically marks that area zonally and make interceptions there from time to time. This will definitely increase in number if I can find a better player with better anticipation, bravery, concentration, work rate, aggression, determination, tackling, positioning and acceleration.

Edited November 20, 2022 by frukox

[mikcheck]

14 minutos atrás, frukox disse:

@mikcheckNo, I wouldn't change anything because I trust in my plan-My DLF automatically marks that area zonally and make interceptions there from time to time. This will definitely increase in number if I can find a better player with better anticipation, bravery, concentration, work rate, aggression, determination, tackling, positioning and acceleration.

Good luck trying to find a striker with good positioning, tackling and concentration 

[frukox]

@mikcheckI can convert a tenacious midfielder to a DLFS. So why not;)

[icedgate]

On 20/11/2022 at 04:59, frukox said:

@icedgate You're totally wrong. Now I manage a team in Ukranian Second Division. I only have two good defenders, two good midfielders and a striker who can score some goals. 

Now that I know what I have at my disposal, I decided to go with a bog standard 442 and it really works well. Let me show you the tactic first:

                     SKS

FBS        CDD    CDD    FBA

WMA     RPM    BBM    WMS

               AFA     DLFS

My team is above average at best so I adopted a normal approach.

Mentality: Balanced

In-possession instructions: None

In-transition instructions: Distribute to CBs and Take Short Kicks

Out-of-possession instructions: Higher DL, More Urgent, Tighter Marking, Use Offside Trap, Get Stuck In

PIs: 

FBA-Stay Wider

WMS- Sit Narrower, Run Wide

WMA- Stay Wider, Run Wide

My game plan is to play out of defence as much as possible although they can prefer direct balls to the strikers or the right midfielder at times. When the opposition has the ball, I try to win the ball in the middle of the park like Yorkshire terrriers. Then, the team either use the left flank for a cross to the far post, or a through ball for the strikers to run onto or a cross/cutback from the right midfielder or even an odd ball over the top by the right fullback.

As @Cleon said, every tactic needs support, movement, penetration, width, mobility, and creativity and my plan provides all of them. 

Support- All players have close passing options when they are on the ball. RPM is pretty crucial here.

Movement- The WMA keep the channels open for AFA by running wide

The WMS opens up some space for FBA

DLF drops deep to support the midfield and creates decisions crises between defenders

AFA provides the much needed height for the creative players behind him.

FBS is always an outlet for WMA or unmarked at times for a deep cross or a cutback.

Penetration- AFA attacks the space behind the space, FBA and WMA attacks the wings while our BBM, DLF and RPM are runners from the deep and you can't mark the players that move.

Width- It comes from the FBA and WMA. They stretch the opposition horizontally by staying wider.

Creativity- FBA-WMS- RPM or BBM -->third-man run combination

DLF/WMS-RPM-AFA--> third man run combination

FBA/WMA- a cross/cutback

WMS-RPM- through balls, diagonal balls

WMA-AFA 1vs1 duel

Mobility- The midfielders roam the area in front of the opposition defence at will to provide the crucial support to the players around them.

Pretty simple, right? 

 

its my setup, I lost easily against weak team like Sheff Utd 

 

what is the biggest problem of my team I dont know, the problem is I ALWAYS LOST 1-2 GOALS very very early of the game like in 5 mins , ALL the TIME 

[frukox]

10 saat önce, icedgate said:

its my setup, I lost easily against weak team like Sheff Utd 

 

what is the biggest problem of my team I dont know, the problem is I ALWAYS LOST 1-2 GOALS very very early of the game like in 5 mins , ALL the TIME 

There are a number of glaring issues with the tactic but instead of talking about them first I just want you to focus on TIs. Too many! Do you know why you have them there? Are there any reasons why you used all of these? If not please start with a clean slate. Then, add them one by one as you watch transitions. 

Once you keep them to a minimum you can start to look at your tactic in terms of players' support to one another. Do they have passing options when they are on the ball? If these kind of things happens frequently and your team is often counterattacked in that specific part of the area you should look for getting more and proper support for those players. Another point worth investigating is how they attack space. Do they occupy the same area? If so you should think about changing that role and do not be afraid of changing things but Do it gradually- one by one so that you could easily see the difference.

Happy experiments:)

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by frukox

[marko82]

I think the main problem is balance, 2 IW on attack, ball winning midfielder although on def role is not the most disciplined player in sense of positioning, he is more a ''ball chaser'' so to speak, and you have a WB-attack as well on that side.
I would first try WB-S and CM-D to see if that makes more balance, the other ''flaw'' for me is 2 NCB who will mostly lump the ball just to clear it away, and that in comibination with more direct passing, higher tempo and pass into space probably breaks a lot of your attacks before they even started, so i would at least change them on standard CD-D roles.

[JamieTC13]

I'm playing 442 and I'm top of the league with the prediction to finish around 6-7th, I am IFK Göteborg from Sweden.

Sometimes i will use a 4-4-1-1 when paying bigger teams. 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by JamieTC13

[OldManPar77]

Despite the long list of negatives (?) I'm having my most success with the flat 4-4-2 this year.

Depending on the opponent / how the game is going I'll change around between short/direct passing and when going direct will hit early crosses. 

The CM(a) role has been tinkered with occasionally putting it on (s) duty or trying an AP there, after seeing some of the other replies here possibly BBM could be an option. 

[icedgate]

4 hours ago, OldManPar77 said:

Despite the long list of negatives (?) I'm having my most success with the flat 4-4-2 this year.

Depending on the opponent / how the game is going I'll change around between short/direct passing and when going direct will hit early crosses. 

The CM(a) role has been tinkered with occasionally putting it on (s) duty or trying an AP there, after seeing some of the other replies here possibly BBM could be an option. 

wow man, its so impressive, how can your players have so many partnerships? 

 

I have been wondering how can easily build up partnership with my players

[OldManPar77]

46 minutes ago, icedgate said:

wow man, its so impressive, how can your players have so many partnerships? 

 

I have been wondering how can easily build up partnership with my players

Just develops naturally as they play more games together - been playing that system most of the season