FM22 & FM23 [Experiment] The truth about the Youth Intake preview and the Youth Intake itself. What can change? What you can have an impact on.

[Jimbokav1971]

On 30/01/2023 at 23:42, Gorgonita said:

Hello again.

I have done the test again, and the result has been the same. In my FM23, in the intake, the players always appear with the same name and nationality.

Out of curiosity, just before the arrival, I once lowered the "youth recruitment" level to 1, and the only change was that the arrival of the players was delayed by a month. But again the same players appeared.

During the tests has any type of modification been used?

Hi @GorgonitaI've been waiting for me to get to my next youth intake to double check this for you. What I would say is that my save has continued on from the Beta version of the game, so it's quite possible, (although unlikely), that it's different in your game than it is in mine, but it's more likely that something wasn't working as intended and SI have done something to fix it in one of the updates. Let me have a look. 

[Jimbokav1971]

In response to a recent question raise by @GorgonitaI am looking at some of the stuff that we had previously checked, to see if things are still the same. After all, there have been some updates to the game since then and I did report in the Official Bug section that Youth Intakes weren't working as intended. 

I saved my game on 1st Apr 2039 at 08:00 game time and this is the 1st time I progressed to 2nd Apr 2039 and the Youth Intake day and it's the intake that I will keep in my save moving forward. (Because I don't want to spoil my game, I won't be showing the CA/PA for this 1st intake, but I will compare the other 9 in the next post). If there was a link between Youth Intake preview and actual Youth Intake then there should be some similarity between CA/PA of players in each intake, but I don't believe that s the case so looking at the CA/PA of intakes 2-10 won't give me any info about intake 1. 

This is the 2nd intake. 

3rd intake.

4th intake. 

5th intake. 

6th intake. 

7th intake. 

8th intake. 

9th intake. 

10th intake. 

My initial reaction is that things have reverted back to how they were in FM22, with names and Nationalities set at some previous point but everything else still fluid. 

In order to check that rather than me just saying it, let's pick a player and then compare their infor for all 10 intakes. 

Antonio Fornals was top of the original list, (ranked by PA), so let's use him. 

According to Mr Fornals, the following columns remain the same with no change. 

Name. 
Position. 
Best position. 
Age. (I have manually checked hi date of birth and 20.10.2023 is his DOB in all intakes). 
Nationality. For Nationality I have checked Mohamed Rachade who has an unusual Nationality & 2nd Nationality in this intake and it still appears static with him.
2nd nationality. For 2nd Nationality I have checked Mohamed Rachade who has an unusual Nationality & 2nd Nationality in this intake and it still appears static with him.

Looking back to how things worked in FM22, I thought the positions/best position was also fluid so it might be worth checking other players to see if this is variable in any of them. 

I have checked and positions/best position is static in all players. 

So it's not how it was when I ran my original experiment, but it's also not how it was in FM22. 

[Jimbokav1971]

The next thing I want to do is look at the quality of the 9 versions of this intake, and by quality I really mean the difference in quality. Going back to my last post and using Mr Fornals as an example, is his CA/PA going to vary or is it going to remain pretty standard through all the intakes. I say 9 versions because I'm going to be using the IGE to look at the CA/PA of these players and Intake 1 is my actual intake from my actual save so I don't want to see the actual CA/PA values. In hindsight I should have gone back and use the test save +1 year, but ah well, we're here now and I have the 10 versions of the same intake in 2039 so let's just get it done. 

Facilities. First of all I want to let you know what our facilities are, like, what level we're playing at in what Nation so we know what to expect. I'm managing Ceuta in LaLiga and we're been there for 7 seasons now, (qualifying for Europe only once). 

We have a pending improvement for both Youth Facilities and our Youth Recruitment, but neither of these have been completed. Youth Facilities absolutely won't be shown here, but Youth Recruitment might be shown at the new level, (in fact they have because they have popped from level 17 to level 19). 

I'm about to post the intakes, but I'm having a problem deciding how I should sort them. The default, (for me), is to sort them by PA, (or Actual PA where that is shown), but the difference between this version of the experiment and the original is that we have the advantage of the same players being used in each subsequent test, so I think I would be silly not to list the players alphabetically to make it easier to track individual player ranges. What do you think? 

In hindsight, had I known I was going to list the players alphabetically now, I would have selected Álex Agné as the test subject in the last post rather than Mr Fornals. 

Intake 1. Is not shown. 

Intake 2. 

Intake 3. 

Intake 4.

Intake 5. 

Intake 6.

Intake 7. 

Intake 8.

Intake 9.

Intake 10. 

When I did this before, I didn't make a specific player Player 1 and keep that same player as Player 1 all through the subsequent intakes. I couldn't do it because the same player didn't exist in the subsequent intakes. It was a different name each time. I ranked each squad in each different intake via actual PA and listed them that way. This time, because the player names don't change each time we run the experiment, I will use actual Player Names rather than just "Player 1", and this will allow us, (hopefully), to track the range of quality for each player. 

This next graphic shows just that.

The difference between the lowest PA (83.33) and the highest PA (131.67) is significant, and this is 1 of my previous criticisms, (more from previous games than FM23 because I haven't been able to track this until now because previously they were showing with different names. I think this is what we want because it, (possibly/hopefully), links back to the Intake preview with ability/potential not being set in stone, but certainly being influenced from that starting point. 

[Jimbokav1971]

These revelations, (inspired by the question from @Gorgonita), have suggested that SI have gone back and fixed the way that things were working, (or not working), in this area. That can only be a positive thing because there is absolutely no doubt that there was a lot to be unhappy with earlier in the life of the game, (in particular the link between Youth Intake and Youth Intake preview), and the suggestion now certainly seems to be hinting at improvements in this area. 

I suppose the only way to deal with this now is to go back and start again from scratch, assume that we no longer know the things that we thought we learned earlier in the thread and start afresh. It's frustrating that SI got such a pivotal area as this so wrong in the early stages of the game, but credit where it's due, they do appear at least to be resolving some of the issues. 

I've quite enjoyed this little visit back to this thread and with any luck it will inspire me to start things off again. 

[phnompenhandy]

Superb stuff. I know this is beyond your scope for testing, but I wonder if you have a general sense of something: I'm about to start a new job with an amateur club in an Academy-Only career, with facilities starting at 1. Given that improving Junior Coaching and Youth Recruitment are relatively cheap, and Youth Facilities are prohibitively expensive, what are the relative merits of the 3? I mean, will the intake significantly increase in CA and PA quality if the first 2 are upgraded but not the 3rd?

[Jimbokav1971]

3 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Superb stuff. I know this is beyond your scope for testing, but I wonder if you have a general sense of something: I'm about to start a new job with an amateur club in an Academy-Only career, with facilities starting at 1. Given that improving Junior Coaching and Youth Recruitment are relatively cheap, and Youth Facilities are prohibitively expensive, what are the relative merits of the 3? I mean, will the intake significantly increase in CA and PA quality if the first 2 are upgraded but not the 3rd?

If you had asked me what I thought before doing these experiments I would have said that Junior Coaching is the best route to go down. It's cheaper in in both the short term and long term, and allows you to get your intake up to a reasonable level pretty quickly. 

The results of this intake also suggest that this is the case, however it should be acknowledged that these have so far been very limited experiments and while we can take general info from them, they can't be taken as absolute realities in any circumstances other than those in which they were created. 

These tests were created with the following facilities. 

Training Facilities. Youth Facilities. Junior Coaching. Youth Recruitment.

20.1.1.1.
1.20.1.1.
1.1.20.1.
1.1.1.20.

As soon as you have 20.5.10.10 or 10.20.10.10, or anything other than 3x1's and a 20, then you're talking about something which generate different results to those that we see here. That's even before we start getting into reputation, (which is an enormous driver In my opinion). 

So there we go. I've told you that you need Junior Coaching and that's that and the debate is all done and dusted right? No, of course not. 

Because as soon as the intake arrives and you have these shiny new players with decent PA who will surely be better than the rubbish players you inherited, you will want to play them and develop them so that their CA improves and they reach their PA. The problem is that Junior Coaching doesn't help you do that, (or not significantly anyway). 

In my head, the way that things used to work is as follows. 

Training Facilities used to significantly impact the rate at which players developed, (along with other things). 
Youth Facilities used to significantly impact the rate at which Youth Players (who have already been generated), develop, (along with other things). 
Junior Coaching used to significantly impact the CA of players coming through the Academy, (along with other things). 
Youth Recruitment used to significantly impact the PA of players coming through the Academy, (along with other things). 

Like many things in this area, my knowledge comes either from learned experience or the work of art that is the Cleon Ajax thread, (which I still have bookmarked after all these years). 

The game has moved on over time so I'm not for a minute trying to tell you that what worked back in the day still works in the same way in FM23, but at the very least it makes sense this way when you think about it, and although SI might have adapted and changed things slightly to make it more complicated and harder to game, I still believe that the modern system isn't a million miles away from what is shown above, (even if the results of experiments might not agree with me). 

The way I see it, Junior Coaching is quick and cheap and easy to upgrade so it's a no brainer as to what you should upgrade 1st.
Youth Recruitment also appears cheap, (because there are no initial up front build costs), but if you check your finances you will find that actually the costs are hidden and spread over the season but can become significantly more than expected.  
With regards to Training Facilities and Youth Facilities, they impact player development between them, (in my opinion), amd even if you get players through with good PA, it's going to be really hard to develop them with rubbish facilities while playing at a rubbish level of football. 

My advice. Take whatever marginal gains you can by extending whatever facilities you can and try not to worry about the money. If you're doing a Youth Only save then you are all in anyway. You will never have to pay transfer fees and for the early part of your save your wage bill will be lower, so any money you do have can be invested back into facilities, and that includes the money from any big sales. 

[phnompenhandy]

That's really helpful Jimbo. I used to follow the old formula - JC to increase intake CA, YR to increase intake PA, but we kept reading that the formula no longer applies, and that all the facilities affect intake CA and PA, which has left me not a little discombobulated. So it's more than interesting that your provisional conclusions fly in the face of the 'new wisdom'.

From my own saves at extremely low levels, I find that giving youths plenty of competitive game time develops their CA whereas it doesn't matter what you do with them, if they're not getting first team game-time, they won't improve, which is fair enough.  So what I need is for kids to come into my squad with as high CA and PA as possible. That means that the ultra-expensive training and youth facilities don't matter so much, since their benefit is dwarfed by the benefit of playing the kids. So if you're right, I ought to be able to develop a small club's youth development philosophy well by focussing on Junior Coaching and Youth Recruitment upgrades, and not have to worry about the upgrades that are out of a small club's reach.

[Jimbokav1971]

6 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

That's really helpful Jimbo. I used to follow the old formula - JC to increase intake CA, YR to increase intake PA, but we kept reading that the formula no longer applies, and that all the facilities affect intake CA and PA, which has left me not a little discombobulated. So it's more than interesting that your provisional conclusions fly in the face of the 'new wisdom'.

From my own saves at extremely low levels, I find that giving youths plenty of competitive game time develops their CA whereas it doesn't matter what you do with them, if they're not getting first team game-time, they won't improve, which is fair enough.  So what I need is for kids to come into my squad with as high CA and PA as possible. That means that the ultra-expensive training and youth facilities don't matter so much, since their benefit is dwarfed by the benefit of playing the kids. So if you're right, I ought to be able to develop a small club's youth development philosophy well by focussing on Junior Coaching and Youth Recruitment upgrades, and not have to worry about the upgrades that are out of a small club's reach.

The thing with the SI announcements is that they don't tell us how the game actually works. They tell us how they want the game to work. The truth is that there is loads of stuff that doesn't work as intended and for whatever reason hasn't been fixed yet. 

The issue with there being absolutely zero link whatsoever between the Youth Intake preview and the Youth Intake itself at the start of the FM23 cycle is a perfect example of that. It's not how SI want the game to run, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. 

I think in this particular instance SI are correct that all the facilities do impact CA/PA generation, but I absolutely do not agree that they benefit CA/PA "equally", which I think the quite that has been made at some point or another. What I would say though, (and I say this as someone who has played a LOT of Youth Only in FM), try not to get too bogged down by the optimum decision for this or the optimum decision for that. You're players are going to be rubbish for ages. I mean aaaaaages.  Just enjoy it and make some decisions just for the hell of it and see how it goes.

I totally agree about 1st team football by the way, although be careful about loaning out to low levels. I know there was an issue with a lack of development in players loaned out to not active leagues, (definitely a bug), but I don't know if that has resolved although I have since experienced something similar, (not definitely a bug). It's just something you need to keep an eye on. When creating a database to play a Youth Only game, I would suggest you think about where you will be playing in terms of what level, and possibly include lower levels, (even in other Nations), where you can loan players out to. Then as you rise you can cancel these additional league if you want. 

The problem with your desire to bring players through with high PA is THAT is what costs the big bucks. With my old-fashioned head on, that would have been Junior Coaching, but now seems much less straightforward than that. I'm in 2039 and I have old produced 5 players from my Academy that I have sold for £10M+. I can't give you CA/PA info because I'm not checking, and I have produced other wonderkids who are still at the club, but 5x £10M+ Academy sales in 16 years suggests that it's a long old slog. Looking at the CA/Pa of the 9 versions of my most recent intake, it;s worth remembering that my Facilities are currently like this and the higher CA of any player in my 2039 intake when run 9 different times from an  at the preview stage was just 82. Don't get me wrong, I think 82 is pretty decent, (but then again I'm in 2039 and my expectations have been lowered each season). 

To put a CA of 82 into perspective, a CA of 82 is probably good enough to be an average player in the 4th tier in Spain. I have already mentioned that there might be issues with loaning players out to clubs with poor facilities, so ignoring that, keeping a player at the club and developing him well, (a 10 point gain per season is what I would class as decent performance), then it would take 2 years to get him to 102. But 102 CA is only good enough for the 3rd tier in Spain and he's now 18. 2 more years in the 3rd tier and he's now 20 and his CA is maybe up to 120, (at a push) and now he's ready for LaLiga. But it doesn't happen without 4 years of decent development and that might just mean U19's for a while and a loan here or there, but the chances are that if you really want to boost his development then you are going to have to play him in your 1st Team before he is ready and keep playing him even though he's not good enough. 

So often I hear people say that they can't understand how I'm able to develop so many youngsters to a level at which they can impact the 1st Team. The truth is they have probably been playing for the 1st team for 2 years before that happens. We have to carry them for ages before they start paying back the investment. 

I'm really lucky that in my current save I've just reached the point where my Youth Intake is about to explode, (even without giving me high CA players on intake day). 

From this lates 9 versions of my most recent intake I have 7 different players who had an average PA at 110+. 

A PA of 110 is a tiny bit low to be included but I;m feeling positive so what the hell. I'm coming across an issue at the moment where I have absolutely loads of players away at the AFCON when it's on and I need Academy products to fill in just for that month and a player with a CA of 110+ would help us in that situation. Of course there is no guarantee that I can develop any/all of the players to their CA, (but we have to hope right?)

I think the above is an indication of a pretty poor intake considering our facilities and reputation, but that's the other huge driver to youth generation that so often gets overlooked. If we can pop to Continental then I'm sure it will help. 

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to play a Youth Only save, the best way to do it is just to accept that it;s going to be a hell of a hard slog, that you probably won't ever get to the top and dominate the top level of the game and everything that happens is just a bonus. 

If it was easy, where would be the fin in that. 

[phnompenhandy]

In about 20 years of playing as a lower-league manager (maybe the last 5 or 6 as strictly academy-only), I've only once ever got to a top tier! I like to start around L10 (just about to go L11 with Dan's new db) with CAs all in single digits, so European glory is not on the agenda! Actually, I'm about to add a post to my thread where I declare our target is to be the biggest club in Cornwall

I never bother with loans. I try to create a very specialised style of play - a 'DNA' which would be ruined by loaning out. What I do is keep a tight squad together, so everyone gets adequate game time and bin off the 3rd keeper or 5th striker or whoever is lagging behind. That's why I like to follow your careers - you go far further than I ever will, so it's all unfamiliar and engrossing to me.

[XaW]

@Jimbokav1971 / @phnompenhandy

One thing I'd like to point out, is that according to Seb Wassell, the youth facilities does NOT impact visible players. This is what he posted in that regard:

Quote

Youth Facilities
The training facilities available for Juniors (only).
Does NOT apply to visible players already at the club. All visible players currently at the club use Training Facilities regardless of age.

So, the youth facilities are the facilities used by the players not yet visible. Here is how he said the game generates newgens:

Quote

Producing Newgens
The Clubs with the best Youth Recruitment will generally pick up the best Junior talent from that Nation first, the scale of that talent being determined by the Nation Youth Rating and Game Importance. The lower the Youth Recruitment the further down the pecking order a club will find itself. Two clubs with identical Youth Recruitment will be sorted by Club Reputation. Being lower down this pecking order does not mean quality Newgens cannot be produced, it simply lowers the chances.

Youth Facilities and Junior Coaching then simulate and determine how that Junior progresses in the Club’s Junior system until a Newgen is produced and appears in game. It is at this point that the Current Ability (CA) and Potential Ability (PA) of the newgens are decided. The above factors all contribute to both CA and PA equally.

So the newgen is "produced" some time before the preview comes into play based on a lot of factors, but a few things are "locked" by the preview, and the rest are "locked" in at intake day, but the initial generation happens some time before in order for the youth recruitment to impact which club picks which newgen before the details are locked in.

This might all be stuff you know about, but thought I'd add it to the discussion at any rate.

[Jimbokav1971]

26 minutes ago, XaW said:

@Jimbokav1971 / @phnompenhandy

One thing I'd like to point out, is that according to Seb Wassell, the youth facilities does NOT impact visible players. This is what he posted in that regard:

So, the youth facilities are the facilities used by the players not yet visible. Here is how he said the game generates newgens:

So the newgen is "produced" some time before the preview comes into play based on a lot of factors, but a few things are "locked" by the preview, and the rest are "locked" in at intake day, but the initial generation happens some time before in order for the youth recruitment to impact which club picks which newgen before the details are locked in.

This might all be stuff you know about, but thought I'd add it to the discussion at any rate.

Yeah, I think that's something that commonly known, at least in terms of how SI have explained that it works. The problem is that they have told us so much stuff that doesn't seem to be accurate, that it's hard to trust them on anything now. And of course when Seb told us that, he wasn't actually talking about FM23. He was talking about an older game, so like so much else that we know used to be the case for historic versions of the game, it's a bit risky if we just assume that it has been carried over to newer subsequent versions, (even though it's likely that it has). 

I personally think that the Youth Facilities only impacting players who haven't yet come through the intake is pretty reasonable thinking, (and I wouldn't have meant to to say anything opposing that view in this thread, so apologies if I have). I think I'm just at the stage though where, (especially after I had worked out that names and Nationalities changed initially and now it's reverted back after 1 of the patches), at the moment there is absolutely nothing I am 100% sure about. 

[phnompenhandy]

@XaW

Yeh, I'm aware of Seb's old explanation, but it still leaves gaps in my understanding. Here's my current example. I'm managing in Cornwall - so England which has a very high National Youth Rating and Game Importance (I assume). My club, Polperro, are in Level 11 and I deliberately reduced their starting rep in the editor to make them the lowest in England. Thanks to a background benefactor whose ambition is to make us the biggest club in Cornwall, we've upgraded our facilities. I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say that by the next intake we'll have:

Youth Facilities 2, Youth Recruitment 3 and Junior Coaching 3.

Now, these 3 facilities will be at a higher level than the other clubs in my division (all 1s). Cornish clubs in Level 10 should probably also have all 1s.

So, have I got this right - we should be able to interest more 11-14 year olds in our part of Cornwall than our league rivals (YF 2) - although maybe not until one promotion due to our rep. Between the ages of 14-15 those kids' CA and PA will be created influenced by YR and JC.

If we can increase those facilities by one more level each, we'll be bigger than every Cornish team facilities-wise bar Truro City. This should mean we attract the top kids in Cornwall Truro (and Plymouth on the eastern side) don't take. Is that right? I'm hoping the lack of competition in a large geographical area means the quality of our academy intakes will increase pretty quickly.

[XaW]

10 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Yeah, I think that's something that commonly known, at least in terms of how SI have explained that it works. The problem is that they have told us so much stuff that doesn't seem to be accurate, that it's hard to trust them on anything now. And of course when Seb told us that, he wasn't actually talking about FM23. He was talking about an older game, so like so much else that we know used to be the case for historic versions of the game, it's a bit risky if we just assume that it has been carried over to newer subsequent versions, (even though it's likely that it has). 

I personally think that the Youth Facilities only impacting players who haven't yet come through the intake is pretty reasonable thinking, (and I wouldn't have meant to to say anything opposing that view in this thread, so apologies if I have). I think I'm just at the stage though where, (especially after I had worked out that names and Nationalities changed initially and now it's reverted back after 1 of the patches), at the moment there is absolutely nothing I am 100% sure about. 

I think the system for newgen generation is a good one, so I doubt they would retool it without need. Of course, I don't know, but that would be my guess. The reason I posted the comment about youth facilities, is because of your comment:

On 02/02/2023 at 02:20, Jimbokav1971 said:

Youth Facilities used to significantly impact the rate at which Youth Players (who have already been generated), develop, (along with other things). 

So since Seb said they DON'T impact visible players, I was unsure if you had read the comment.

9 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

@XaW

Yeh, I'm aware of Seb's old explanation, but it still leaves gaps in my understanding. Here's my current example. I'm managing in Cornwall - so England which has a very high National Youth Rating and Game Importance (I assume). My club, Polperro, are in Level 11 and I deliberately reduced their starting rep in the editor to make them the lowest in England. Thanks to a background benefactor whose ambition is to make us the biggest club in Cornwall, we've upgraded our facilities. I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say that by the next intake we'll have:

Youth Facilities 2, Youth Recruitment 3 and Junior Coaching 3.

Now, these 3 facilities will be at a higher level than the other clubs in my division (all 1s). Cornish clubs in Level 10 should probably also have all 1s.

So, have I got this right - we should be able to interest more 11-14 year olds in our part of Cornwall than our league rivals (YF 2) - although maybe not until one promotion due to our rep. Between the ages of 14-15 those kids' CA and PA will be created influenced by YR and JC.

If we can increase those facilities by one more level each, we'll be bigger than every Cornish team facilities-wise bar Truro City. This should mean we attract the top kids in Cornwall Truro (and Plymouth on the eastern side) don't take. Is that right? I'm hoping the lack of competition in a large geographical area means the quality of our academy intakes will increase pretty quickly.

I think one thing to remember is that SI have stated (but now I can't find the links I thought I had bookmarked...) that changes to these factors will take time to have effect. So changing the HoYD or improving youth facilities will not have an instant effect, but rather slowly change the quality of the players who come through. They didn't specify the time frame, but I would venture to guess it slowly builds for 2-3 years until you have most the value from it, based on how they say the generation works.

But yes, long term your club would be the most attractive one in the area, but you can also lose out to teams a bit further away with high youth recruitment vs yours. So perhaps clubs like Bournemouth, Portsmouth, or Southampton will attract some of the most talented ones. And to push it further, even the biggest youth recruitment clubs in England would perhaps steal a few of the best ones, potentially.

[phnompenhandy]

7 minutes ago, XaW said:

I think the system for newgen generation is a good one, so I doubt they would retool it without need. Of course, I don't know, but that would be my guess. The reason I posted the comment about youth facilities, is because of your comment:

So since Seb said they DON'T impact visible players, I was unsure if you had read the comment.

I think one thing to remember is that SI have stated (but now I can't find the links I thought I had bookmarked...) that changes to these factors will take time to have effect. So changing the HoYD or improving youth facilities will not have an instant effect, but rather slowly change the quality of the players who come through. They didn't specify the time frame, but I would venture to guess it slowly builds for 2-3 years until you have most the value from it, based on how they say the generation works.

But yes, long term your club would be the most attractive one in the area, but you can also lose out to teams a bit further away with high youth recruitment vs yours. So perhaps clubs like Bournemouth, Portsmouth, or Southampton will attract some of the most talented ones. And to push it further, even the biggest youth recruitment clubs in England would perhaps steal a few of the best ones, potentially.

Yeh, I suggest age 11 as how old the kids might be who get affected by Youth Facilities - I see it as our chairman investing in equipment in local schools and well as community sports facilities. Then aged 14-15 they get the Youth Recruitment/Junior Coaching treatment in the club's academy before arriving for trials on intake day. It's that period when the HOYD might alter his assessment of the kids between preview and intake. Like Jimbo, I've learned not to take the preview too seriously and just wait until the kids rock up.

In my narrative in the Careers Forum I focus on preventing Plymouth Argyle poaching both Cornish fans and promising Cornish youngsters - that's our rival - further afield I'm not bothered about unless we get into National League territory.

Edited February 6, 2023 by phnompenhandy

[Jimbokav1971]

Hey @XaW. I was about to say that was a typo from me, but actually it wasn't when I read it back. Don't get me wrong, what I was saying was wrong, but I know it was wrong. Hang on. I don't think I'm explaining this very well. 

Here's what I said. 

The important bits here are the bit at the very start.

"used to work". Not now. Not recently. A long long long time ago. The Ajax thread was written for FM14 I think, so that's 9 years ago now. 

I did try to make that clear even with the individual facilities. 

"used to, used to, used to, used to". It's all past tense because I was trying to explain what I learned about Newgen generation back in the day and how I learned it, (the Ajax thread largely), and how it made sense then, (and still makes a little sense now even though we're told it's not working like that anymore). 

The problem is that experience has taught many of us that it's not quite working how the boffins tell us it's meant to be working, so we're looking for other explanations and reasons as to how/why it might work differently. Apologies if I wasn't clear. 

[Jimbokav1971]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

So since Seb said they DON'T impact visible players, I was unsure if you had read the comment.

Even though I was talking about how things worked in the past, it's worth reiterating this point in case anyone else has read my stuff, (taken from the Ajac thread circa FM14) and thinks it's transferrable to the here and now with FM23. 

Youth Facilities. SI have told us that this only impacts Youth Players who have NOT YET come through the Youth Intake. 

Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but it's certainly the official party line and I have nothing even semi-concrete with which to put up as an opposing argument against it. Running an experiment to test this would be doable. You could run 10 lots of 1 season holidaying a group of players who have just come through the intake, and then run another 10x 1 seasons with the same group of players but with significantly better/worse Youth Facilities and track development over their 1st year. I quite like the idea of that one because it's not very labour intensive and the results are likely to be pretty clear. 

Youth Facilities Level 1. 10 x 1 seasons tracking CA development between intake day and intake day the following season. 
Youth Facilities Level 11. 10 x 1 seasons tracking CA development between intake day and intake day the following season. 
Youth Facilities Level 20. 10 x 1 seasons tracking CA development between intake day and intake day the following season. 

I think I will do this one over the course of this week. 30 seasons holidayed is a fair amount of holidaying, but the dog gets 14 walks a week so that's 14 seasons right there.  I like it. 

 

[XaW]

Just now, Jimbokav1971 said:

Even though I was talking about how things worked in the past, it's worth reiterating this point in case anyone else has read my stuff, (taken from the Ajac thread circa FM14) and thinks it's transferrable to the here and now with FM23. 

Youth Facilities. SI have told us that this only impacts Youth Players who have NOT YET come through the Youth Intake. 

Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but it's certainly the official party line and I have nothing even semi-concrete with which to put up as an opposing argument against it. Running an experiment to test this would be doable. You could run 10 lots of 1 season holidaying a group of players who have just come through the intake, and then run another 10x 1 seasons with the same group of players but with significantly better/worse Youth Facilities and track development over their 1st year. I quite like the idea of that one because it's not very labour intensive and the results are likely to be pretty clear. 

Youth Facilities Level 1. 10 x 1 seasons tracking CA development between intake day and intake day the following season. 
Youth Facilities Level 11. 10 x 1 seasons tracking CA development between intake day and intake day the following season. 
Youth Facilities Level 20. 10 x 1 seasons tracking CA development between intake day and intake day the following season. 

I think I will do this one over the course of this week. 30 seasons holidayed is a fair amount of holidaying, but the dog gets 14 walks a week so that's 14 seasons right there.  I like it. 

 

Yeah, I know you are quite well versed in youth development, so this was not a "gotcha" from me, but rather a point to make in case you had forgotten or misunderstood. I don't think you took it badly, but I want to be clear since tone is hard to convey in writing at times!

I always enjoy your posts and experiments so I'm looking forward to see it, and it's also the reason I follow your Twitter accounts. As a bonus, even if I don't care much about how Barnet does, I still have an above average knowledge about them now! 

[Jimbokav1971]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

I think one thing to remember is that SI have stated (but now I can't find the links I thought I had bookmarked...) that changes to these factors will take time to have effect. So changing the HoYD or improving youth facilities will not have an instant effect, but rather slowly change the quality of the players who come through. They didn't specify the time frame, but I would venture to guess it slowly builds for 2-3 years until you have most the value from it, based on how they say the generation works.

But yes, long term your club would be the most attractive one in the area, but you can also lose out to teams a bit further away with high youth recruitment vs yours. So perhaps clubs like Bournemouth, Portsmouth, or Southampton will attract some of the most talented ones. And to push it further, even the biggest youth recruitment clubs in England would perhaps steal a few of the best ones, potentially.

 

1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

Yeh, I suggest age 11 as how old the kids might be who get affected by Youth Facilities - I see it as our chairman investing in equipment in local schools and well as community sports facilities. Then aged 14-15 they get the Youth Recruitment/Junior Coaching treatment in the club's academy before arriving for trials on intake day. It's that period when the HOYD might alter his assessment of the kids between preview and intake. Like Jimbo, I've learned not to take the preview too seriously and just wait until the kids rock up.

In my narrative in the Careers Forum I focus on preventing Plymouth Argyle poaching both Cornish fans and promising Cornish youngsters - that's our rival - further afield I'm not bothered about unless we get into National League territory.

I think this is a really good point and often one that many people seem to overlook. It also makes sense when you think about how it works in real life and how you want want it to translate to FM in a perfect World. 

Again, the way that the SI boffins drip feed info out to us is not always helpful though, (although I appreciate that they do this because they want a real World feel rather than us having the ability to "game the system". When @XaWsays "SI have stated (but now I can't find the links I thought I had bookmarked...) that changes to these factors will take time to have effect." while I wish they were talking about the delay in seeing the benefits of increased facilities in the development of players I actually don't think that's what they meant, (however this is completely open to interpretation). 

When you upgrade your Youth Facilities or your Training Facilities, the new facilities kick in immediately on the day that the work on the new facilities is completed. It's a known date and you know when it is and what the result will be. 

With both Junior Coaching and Youth Recruitment, it doesn't quite work like that. There isn't a set day by which the building work will be completed, (because there is no building work to complete), and in fact the in game message says something along the lines of, "will reach such and such a level over time". This is what I think SI meant when they stated that they take time to take effect. I hope I'm wrong, because of course it makes sense that a group of 11 year olds at the club would benefit more by facilities improving than a group of 15 year olds who are due through the next intake. I would hope that this is taken into account, but I'm not convinced it is, (although that's how I think in my head). 

Again, that would be another good experiment to run. The problem with this is that it would mean multiple lots of 10 x 1 seasons, and there would be a whole years worth of holidaying between each group. It's a far more labour intensive experiment. 

[Jimbokav1971]

6 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yeah, I know you are quite well versed in youth development, so this was not a "gotcha" from me, but rather a point to make in case you had forgotten or misunderstood. I don't think you took it badly, but I want to be clear since tone is hard to convey in writing at times!

I always enjoy your posts and experiments so I'm looking forward to see it, and it's also the reason I follow your Twitter accounts. As a bonus, even if I don't care much about how Barnet does, I still have an above average knowledge about them now! 

I would never take something badly from you. I knew that's not how you intended it.  

If you only have an above average knowledge about Barnet, you must not have been paying attention. 

Lastly, apologies for my political posts. I do try to keep them to a minimum, but it's just so hard at the moment. 

[XaW]

Just now, Jimbokav1971 said:

I would never take something badly from you. I knew that's not how you intended it.  

I didn't think you would, but wanted to be clear!  

Just now, Jimbokav1971 said:

If you only have an above average knowledge about Barnet, you must not have been paying attention. 

Considering I start with 0 knowledge, that's something!

1 minute ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Lastly, apologies for my political posts. I do try to keep them to a minimum, but it's just so hard at the moment. 

No worries, if anything it gives more more of an input on how screwed up the political landscape in the UK is!  

[mdaw1985]

How about something more basic. HOYD. 10 intakes per year for 5 years. One with an average HOYD and one with top stats. See what averages you get. Also if there's an improvement progressively with having a top HOYD. Obviously all with the same facilities etc. People also say personality can have an effect that would be an interesting thing to see if that really makes much difference.

[phnompenhandy]

You might want to watch Max's last 3 videos:

FM23 Youth Intake Part 3 - Youth Preview

[PoopMcGoo]

On 01/06/2022 at 07:09, Jimbokav1971 said:

Plans/ideas for the future. 

I've got a few ideas rattling around in my head that I want to look at at some point in the future, so I'm going to add them here so that I don't forget them when I come back to this. 

1. What happens if you edit the CA of the existing players up/down? (I'm expecting that this would impact on the PPA & PCA, but I would like to see it actually happen). 
2. What happens if I reduce/increase the club reputation both before preview and after? 
3. What happens if I reduce/increase the Youth Recruitment/Junior Coaching both before preview and after? 
4. What happens if I edit the HoYD info, both before the preview and after? 
5. What happens if I edit the personality of all staff both before the preview and after? 
6. What happens if I edit the Nationality of all staff both before the preview and after? 
7. What happens if I edit the Youth Rating, both before the preview and after? 
8. I can't remember the name of it, (and I also can't find it in the Editor), but what happens if I edit the "Footballing Importance" or whatever it's called? 
9. What happens if I edit the Professional status of the club, both before the preview and after? 
10. What happens if I edit the Training Facilities/Youth Facilities both before the preview and after? 
11. What happens if I edit the Affiliations, both before the preview and after? 
12. What happens if I edit the Nation reputation, both before the preview and after? 
13. What happens if you compare 10 different Youth Intakes from the same preview to 10 different intakes from 10 different previews? @SoSolidSnake
14. What single thing has the biggest impact on the quality of a Youth Intake? (This is immediately subjective because it depends if you are looking at CA or PA). Most of us look at CA in terms of the stars, but if you can't develop the player from his low CA starting point to his potential PA then the high PA doesn't really mean anything. 
15. Why do low rep clubs often seem to get players from Secondary Nations in their Intakes with high PA relative to the rest of the intake? 
16. It is commonly believed that the 1st intake of each save, (for all clubs), is boosted for some reason. Is there any truth to this or is it just an old FM players tale? 
17. In terms of player development is there an experiment that we could run that would compare development of players who stayed in the U19's players who were given a couple/few outings in the 1st Team, and the same player going out on loan at a lower level? @Mandy42
18. What is the difference in terms of development, between a player spending a season in the U19's and the same player spending a season in the U23's? @Parmie
19. What influences the Nationality & Secondary Nationality of players? @OlivierL

 

Feel free to suggest others, (but no promise that I will get to them). 

i can see that the names in march are the same no matter how many times you reload

one thing i didn't see if you tried

do the names given in the december preview change if you reload that preview email?
(ie is that the moment the names are assigned.. or are they assigned before the december email, and no matter how much you reload it will always be the same players?)

[phnompenhandy]

3 hours ago, PoopMcGoo said:

i can see that the names in march are the same no matter how many times you reload

one thing i didn't see if you tried

do the names given in the december preview change if you reload that preview email?
(ie is that the moment the names are assigned.. or are they assigned before the december email, and no matter how much you reload it will always be the same players?)

Actually Max covers this in his series of videos to which I posted a link above.

[PoopMcGoo]

awesome thnx!