Request for assistance with a parent division with two child competitions becoming a single division the season after

[Mons]

Latest request for assistance can be found here, the below is background info.

 

For the umpteenth year, I'm trying to replicate the Maltese league structure in FM22. Due to COVID-related league stoppages, the format is irregular for the next two seasons (2021/22 and 2022/23), only setting down in 2023/24.

 

I'm having a bit of difficulty in locating the issue in the subject. I'm far from an expert on advanced rules, and last year was the first I dabbled in them, but I got the file up and running just fine last time round, so I'm not a complete novice either. I've checked this forum but none of the related topics seem to quite resolve the issue.

 

A brief outline by way of background information can be found in the below spoiler and in pictorial form in the attached pdf - the bits which are struck-through are the ones which I believe are broadly completed (though there may well be a need for me to tweak a bit more stuff further down the line, but I don't believe there should be anything major there given they're straight-forward and/or using last year's functioning file).

 

Spoiler

2021/22

PREMIER LEAGUE (12 teams)
First Phase – two rounds
Second Phase: Top Six Final Round – one round
Play-Out Final Round – one round
Relegated (2): Teams placing 5th and 6th in Play-Out Final Round

CHALLENGE LEAGUE (22 teams)
Two groups of 11 teams each playing on two rounds
Championship Decider: 1st in Group A vs 1st in Group B
Promoted (4): 1st and 2nd in Group A; 1st and 2nd in Group B
Relegated (6): 9th, 10th and 11th in Group A; 9th, 10th and 11th in Group B

NATIONAL AMATEUR LEAGUE (19 teams)
Two groups – one of 10 teams and one of 9 teams each playing on two rounds
Championship Decider: 1st in Group A vs 1st in Group B
Promotion (4): 1st in Group A, 1st in Group B, winner of Promotion Decider and winner of Promotion Play-Offs
[Promotion Decider: 2nd in Group A vs 2nd in Group B]
[Promotion Play-Offs:
First Round – Match 1: 4th in Group A vs 5th in Group B and Match 2: 4th in Group B vs 5th in Group A
Second Round – Match 3: 3rd in Group A vs Winner Match 2 Match 4: 3rd in Group B vs Winner Match 1
Third Round – Winner Match 3 vs Winner Match 4
Final – Winner Third Round vs Loser Promotion Decider]

 

2022/23

PREMIER LEAGUE (14 teams)
Two rounds
Relegation: Teams placing 13th and 14th
Premier League Play-Out: Team placing 12th vs Winner of Challenge League Decider for Premier League Play-Out (2nd in Group A vs 2nd in Group B)

CHALLENGE LEAGUE (18 teams)
Two groups of 9 teams each playing on three rounds
Championship Decider: 1st in Group A vs 1st in Group B
Promoted (2): 1st in Group A; 1st in Group B
Decider for Premier League Play-Out: 2nd in Group A vs 2nd in Group B
Premier League Play-Out: Winner of Challenge League Decider for Premier League Play-Out (2nd in Group A vs 2nd in Group B) vs 12th in Premier League
Relegated (6): 7th, 8th and 9th in Group A; 7th, 8th and 9th in Group B

NATIONAL AMATEUR LEAGUE (21 teams)
Two groups – one of 11 teams and one of 10 teams each playing on two rounds
Championship Decider: 1st in Group A vs 1st in Group B
Promotion (4): 1st in Group A, 1st in Group B, winner of Promotion Decider and winner of Promotion Play-Offs
[Promotion Decider: 2nd in Group A vs 2nd in Group B]
[Promotion Play-Offs:
First Round – Match 1: 4th in Group A vs 5th in Group B and Match 2: 4th in Group B vs 5th in Group A
Second Round – Match 3: 3rd in Group A vs Winner Match 2 and Match 4: 3rd in Group B vs Winner Match 1
Third Round – Winner Match 3 vs Winner Match 4
Final – Winner Third Round vs Loser Promotion Decider]

 

2023/24

PREMIER LEAGUE (14 teams)
Two rounds
Relegation: Teams placing 13th and 14th
Premier League Play-Out: Team placing 12th vs Team placing 3rd in Challenge League

CHALLENGE LEAGUE (16 teams)
Two rounds
Promoted (2): Teams placing 1st and 2nd
Premier League Play-Out: Team placing 3rd in Challenge League vs 12th in Premier League
Relegated (4): Teams placing 13th, 14th 15th and 16th

NATIONAL AMATEUR LEAGUE (23 teams)
Three groups – two of 8 teams and one of 7 teams each playing on three rounds
Championship Decider: 1st in Group A, 1st in Group B and 1st in Group C
Promotion (4): 1st in Group A, 1st in Group B, 1st in Group C and winner of Promotion Play-Offs
[Promotion Play-Offs:
First Round – Two teams placing 4th drawn by lot
Second Round – Teams placing 2nd and 3rd in Groups A, B and C; winner of 1st round, the remaining team placing 4th
Semi-Finals – Winners of Second Round matches
Final – Winners of Semi-Finals]

 

Below is the structure I've built to cater for the competition changes, year on year.

Spoiler

 

My issues are:

a) I'm getting a "could not find rules for division" error for the second tier Group A, which I can't get to the bottom of

Spoiler

b) Because of this, I can't continue testing the file, including whether the transition from 2 child competitions to a single competition in 2023/24 works fine in the second tier, and whether the transition from 2 child competitions to 3 in 2023/24 works fine in the third tier, which I imagine may well result in some difficulties. Nor can I test whether the various playoff configurations work fine.

 

At this stage, I would appreciate tremendously if someone could check the attached editor data file and possibly locate where the issue is coming from. Or even suggest possibilities how this can be investigated. If anybody knows similar configurations in the FM playable leagues which I can use as a base for comparison, I'd love to be told about them, because I haven't quite found anything too similar yet, unfortunately.

 

I've been doing this file for 5 or 6 years now, so I hope the community can provide some guidance or assistance so that the Maltese FM community (as well as the general FM community, naturally) can enjoy this file yet again.

Malta league 2021-23 restructuring.pdf

FM22 Malta v4.9 alpha.fmf

[Mons]

Bumping this in the hope the file doesn't die a death...

 

I'm not looking for help with the whole file, I can trial and error my way to that - but only for this specific issue, and one for which I suspect there is a very simple solution I'm overlooking. A not seeing the wood for the trees scenario...

[krlenjushka]

Have you solved your issues?

[Mons]

2 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

Have you solved your issues?

No, it's a complete head-scratcher.

 

[Mons]

As luck would have it, I've just resolved it @krlenjushka!

 

Since the third tier was transitioning from 2 groups to 3 at the end of the 2022/23 season, I had the 3 of them listed in the section for Child Competitions to Organise Teams Into at End of Season

 

 

Now I've removed it, the error is no longer appearing.

[krlenjushka]

yeah but you have lot of work.

[Mons]

43 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

yeah but you have lot of work.

You can say that again! I'll use trial and error, and comparison with other files and default competitions in advanced rules format, to see how to solve whichever errors crop up.

[Mons]

I can't find a similar example in the FM database to use as a base to build/copy from, so I wonder if anybody knows of a division structured in the below manner, whether it's in the default data or in a file created by a user:

 

In season N, parent competition Division X has Group A and Group B as child competitions.

In season N+1, Division x has no child competitions, with all non-promoted and non-relegated participants (as well as teams promoted from a lower division and relegated from a higher one) all participating in a single division.

 

I'm getting this error message (I suspect in the transition in season 3 for the second tier)

[crooy3]

Hi @Mons, have you made any progress with this? I have a similar problem... Have to merge two child competition into one division after first season

[Mons]

52 minutes ago, crooy3 said:

Hi @Mons, have you made any progress with this? I have a similar problem... Have to merge two child competition into one division after first season

I've been informed (thanks @Bigpole) about this file which does seem to do what we're looking for. Haven't had time to look into it yet

[sporadicsmiles]

On 28/11/2021 at 19:36, Mons said:

I can't find a similar example in the FM database to use as a base to build/copy from, so I wonder if anybody knows of a division structured in the below manner, whether it's in the default data or in a file created by a user:

 

In season N, parent competition Division X has Group A and Group B as child competitions.

In season N+1, Division x has no child competitions, with all non-promoted and non-relegated participants (as well as teams promoted from a lower division and relegated from a higher one) all participating in a single division.

 

I'm getting this error message (I suspect in the transition in season 3 for the second tier)

Honestly for this one I would ditch the child divisions immediately and just set the league in season N as a league with a group stage, and in season N+1 as a straight league. Solves the issues of sorting teams easily, as they are all in the same division. Use regional divisions to create the groups in the first season to get the organised properly. 

The downside is you will not get a winner saved for each group, but it will be easy to set up and work well. I do have a file where I do this, if you need to see it. 

[krlenjushka]

2 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Honestly for this one I would ditch the child divisions immediately and just set the league in season N as a league with a group stage, and in season N+1 as a straight league. Solves the issues of sorting teams easily, as they are all in the same division. Use regional divisions to create the groups in the first season to get the organised properly. 

The downside is you will not get a winner saved for each group, but it will be easy to set up and work well. I do have a file where I do this, if you need to see it. 

I tried several options but cant solve it 100%. I managed to decrease number of child comps but i have less teams for some reason.

[sporadicsmiles]

2 minutes ago, krlenjushka said:

I tried several options but cant solve it 100%. I managed to decrease number of child comps but i have less teams for some reason.

I have one file where first season we have 20 teams in 2 groups of 10, which does into championship and knockout relegation stages.  The second season goes into an 18 team straight league system with no other stages at all. I did not use any parent and child competitions to do this though, which did make it somewhat easier. I can PM you the file if you are interested, as far as I can tell it works fine. 

[krlenjushka]

No i tried to make it with parent/child comps. Always wanted to sort this out. I will give it one more hour and thats it.

EDIT: its solved. I will upload my file.

[krlenjushka]

You can take a look at my file. Serbian level 3 - 4 child divisions to 3 child divisions. Also this is version without reducing team number of level 3.

I will test that later.

If you need any help im here.

S2.fmf

[Mons]

On 02/12/2021 at 21:57, sporadicsmiles said:

Honestly for this one I would ditch the child divisions immediately and just set the league in season N as a league with a group stage, and in season N+1 as a straight league. Solves the issues of sorting teams easily, as they are all in the same division. Use regional divisions to create the groups in the first season to get the organised properly. 

The downside is you will not get a winner saved for each group, but it will be easy to set up and work well. I do have a file where I do this, if you need to see it. 

If you would be so kind as to send me the file, I would appreciate it tremendously. This seems much easier than faffing about with child competitions, particularly in view of the fact that my competitions are not in any way sorted by regional boundaries, and this set-up would facilitate things tremendously for me.

 

On 03/12/2021 at 14:10, krlenjushka said:

You can take a look at my file. Serbian level 3 - 4 child divisions to 3 child divisions. Also this is version without reducing team number of level 3.

I will test that later.

If you need any help im here.

S2.fmf 23.44 kB · 1 download

I appreciate this file and your guidance, and it seems to be a great example of what I was looking to achieve, but it's much too complex for my bewildered mind at this stage, especially since I can't have two instances of the editor running and have to reload the editor data file every time to check how things should be done.

[crooy3]

@Mons you can take a look at this file. we have two child divisions in second tier in the first season and then one division for second season and onwards

On 05/12/2021 at 17:25, Mons said:

I can't have two instances of the editor running and have to reload the editor data file every time to check how things should be done.

you can load one of the files in the FM21 Editor. there should be no problem when it comes to the league rules

Edited December 8, 2021 by crooy3
added link to the file I mentioned

[Mons]

3 minutes ago, crooy3 said:

@Mons you can take a look at this file. we have two child divisions in second tier in the first season and then one division for second season and onwards

you can load one of the files in the FM21 Editor. there should be no problem when it comes to the league rules

I didn't know that - it'll certainly help a fair bit

[affe1802]

Am 3.12.2021 um 14:10 schrieb krlenjushka:

You can take a look at my file. Serbian level 3 - 4 child divisions to 3 child divisions. Also this is version without reducing team number of level 3.

I will test that later.

If you need any help im here.

S2.fmf 23.44 kB · 7 downloads

Hello @krlenjushka I work for a German Database and I have A problem with Hamburg State leagues so 2021 have Hamburg State league 1 - 3 and 2022 have Hamburg just 2 new state leagues Hammonia and Hansa The child comps 2021 are 38 and 2022 are 37 but State league Hammonia and Hansa starts 2022,

I Test my file and the error comes that Hammonia could not find teams.

Hamburg State league 1 - 3 Start and end Year are 2021 

Hamburg state league Hammonia  and Hansa Start Year 2022

so is it possible that 2021 State league Hamburg 1 - 3 starts and end and 2022 starts other state league Hamburg Hammonia and Hansa?