tips on a tactic

[Kevinbyron25]

has anyone got any advice on my tactic? I'm trying to make a counter style. I'm trying to use a split block with my defence regrouping and my front 4 players chasing and pressing. with a low line of engagement for my fast front players to exploit. it seems very inconsistent at the minute and i seem to struggle against team who set up with 3 centre backs and 2 wing backs. also my players on the left seem to get low ratings most games. any advice would be helpful, thanks 

[Jack722]

From my experience, formations with more than two attacking players (striker and AM strata) aren't ideal for counter attacking and defensive systems. You have four forwards, and three of them are on attack duty so likely won't track back at all. If you're letting the opposition come on to you then you're giving them lots of space to attack with. Even if you ignore the duties, a 4231 formation gives lots of space in front of the fullbacks which leaves a ton of work for your double pivot, who IIRC aren't very talented defensively.

I think you should either try dominate games by pressing high and attacking, or you should commit to being a more counter attacking team by moving your wingers down to the midfield strata to defend with two banks of four, and replace at least one of your centre midfielders with a more defensively able player (such as McTominay or Matic)

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Kevinbyron25 said:

I'm trying to make a counter style

The counter style is a defensive style. And like any defensive style, the most important thing is making your team as hard to break down as possible. That's achieved primarily through a low block with optimal compactness (which exists in your tactic ) and well-balanced setup of roles and duties (which, unfortunately, is not there ). The main problem is your left flank - with both wide players on attack duties, that flank is hardly going to have proper defensive protection (plus there is no need for them to be on attack duties in the style of play you want to achieve anyway). You can comfortably switch both to support duties. Or switch the IW to support and change the WB into FB on attack.

Then, if you want to use a playmaker role in a counter-minded tactic - which is not necessary btw - then having him on defend duty does not look like a good idea to me. Because you want him to look for quicker transitions, rather than slowing the play down. Plus, you already have another playmaker (TQ) in front of him. 

Further, if you want a counter-attacking tactic, why would you insist on working ball into box? No need for that. 

Last but not least, even if you managed to create a "perfect" counter tactic, the question still remains of whether it could work with a top team like United (at least on a consistent basis). Because most of the opposition are likely to play defensively against you, which means there won't be enough space for your players to take advantage of on the counter. When choosing your tactical style, you also need to think about your team's reputation and strength relative to the rest of the league.

[Kevinbyron25]

Ok, I understand what you’re saying regards my tactic being a big negative with United. Idea behind it was to have a lower/standard line of defence as United have slow centre backs and then from there trying to stay compact as to not leave space between my defence and midfield, leaving space so my fast forwards can attack the space. That is why I had the front 4 players on closing down more and leaving the mentality on positive would mean we wouldn’t also just sit back waiting for teams with a less reputation to attack.

my role for my DLP(D) was there to try and suit getting Pogba into the team and hopefully having a it a bit cover for Telles at WB to attack as he has good crossing stats. Could you recommend a better role.

thanks for both replies really appreciate the help

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Kevinbyron25 said:

Idea behind it was to have a lower/standard line of defence as United have slow centre backs

I don't know what are Lindeloff's stats for acc and pace in FM21, but in my Man Utd save back in FM19 - he was pretty fast. On top of that, if a defender has good intelligence, he does not necessarily need to be too fast, because he can read the game well and react accordingly and timely in most situations. 

 

5 hours ago, Kevinbyron25 said:

my role for my DLP(D) was there to try and suit getting Pogba into the team and hopefully having a it a bit cover for Telles at WB to attack as he has good crossing stats

Well, Pogba makes even less sense as a DLP on defend and/or defensive cover for attack-minded roles around him (unless his defense-related attributes have dramatically improved in FM21). But even apart from Pogba, the defend duty for a playmaker is not a good idea in a counter-minded tactic, which I already explained in my previous post. 

 

5 hours ago, Kevinbyron25 said:

Could you recommend a better role

As I already said, if you want a holding playmaker in a counter tactic, then DLP on support duty would make more sense. But given that you use the 4231 formation, you also have to think about player selection in the central midfield. Both CMs should be equally good both at defending and supporting attacks, simply because of the inherent defensive vulnerability of the 4231 as a system (top-heavy with no DM). I fear that neither Pogba nor VdB are defensively reliable players enough. 

To cut a long story short, if you still insist on a counter-attacking style and 4231 formation, this could be a setup worth consideration:

AF

IWsu       TQ/APat      Wsu

CMde  BWMsu

FBat   CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKde/su

But I fear that players like Pogba and VdB could be only played in AMC in this kind of system. An alternative setup might look like this:

CFat

IFsu           SS            IWsu

DLPsu  CMde

WBsu  CDde  BPDde  FBat

Here Pogba or VdB (or Bruno / Fred as well) could be used as the DLP on support, whereas the other holding CM would be Matic or McTominay. 

 

[nully29]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The counter style is a defensive style. And like any defensive style, the most important thing is making your team as hard to break down as possible. That's achieved primarily through a low block with optimal compactness (which exists in your tactic ) and well-balanced setup of roles and duties (which, unfortunately, is not there ). The main problem is your left flank - with both wide players on attack duties, that flank is hardly going to have proper defensive protection (plus there is no need for them to be on attack duties in the style of play you want to achieve anyway). You can comfortably switch both to support duties. Or switch the IW to support and change the WB into FB on attack.

Then, if you want to use a playmaker role in a counter-minded tactic - which is not necessary btw - then having him on defend duty does not look like a good idea to me. Because you want him to look for quicker transitions, rather than slowing the play down. Plus, you already have another playmaker (TQ) in front of him. 

Further, if you want a counter-attacking tactic, why would you insist on working ball into box? No need for that. 

Last but not least, even if you managed to create a "perfect" counter tactic, the question still remains of whether it could work with a top team like United (at least on a consistent basis). Because most of the opposition are likely to play defensively against you, which means there won't be enough space for your players to take advantage of on the counter. When choosing your tactical style, you also need to think about your team's reputation and strength relative to the rest of the league.

This is why some counter-attacking teams, such as Lobanivskiy's Dynamo Kiev employed a "score fast" opening tactics. For the first 20 minutes the team would press out if their minds, looking to score an opening goal and sit back for the rest of the game.

[Robson 07]

I would say both flanks have problems albeit different ones.  ED spoke about the left so I'll tackle the right.

Personally I don't like to see a support duty (FB) supporting a support duty (BBM) supporting a support duty (IF).  I have seen the effects of overload tactics in previous versions but the three supports don't sit right with me.  A support duty player supports defensive roles and/or attacking roles (not another support role).  Just my opinion.

[Kevinbyron25]

Thanks guys for the advice, I'll have a look at what you've said and change a few things up