4-3-3 DM Wide question

[made_in_turkey4]

Hello there,

I've started a save game with Liverpool on FM 21 Beta.

I like to play 4-3-3 dm wide and have some questions in wich i've been looking an answer for a while.

Gk, defenders, DMC, Wide attackers and center forward roles, i have well settled down in my opinion;

GK:       SK (s) 
DCR:    BPD (d) or CD(d)
DCL:    BPD (d)
DR:      FB (a)              PI: Stay wider
DL:      FB (a)              PI: Stay wider
DMC:  DM (s) or  (d) PI: Hold Position, Take more risks
AMR:   IF (a)               PI: Roam from position
AML:   IF (a)               PI: Roam from position
CF:      F9 (s)               PI: Roam from position

My question is about the  MCL - MCR roles.:

I like my DMC to hold his position and recycle possesion behind the central midfielders. Don't really want them to playmake there and that the team focuses play on him, but just that he passes the ball to more creative players upfront, that he is not primarily a creative player, but he is also competent in defence. I want him to hold his position in case of we lose the ball, that he can position himself direct in front of the CD's so that they maybe don't been caught directly with the oppositon's attackers-players.

But for the MC's, i have some things to think about:

I want them to evaluate the space between the Central midfield and Center forward;
Runs with and without the ball here and regularly supporting the forwards, playing throughs balls and also getting in the box. To say again, i really find it important that they'll get in the opposition penalty box in my attacking phases.
My major question is;
Should 2 RPM's be more of use here or 2 B2BM's ? Or may be another role and PI's that you would recommend..?

Maybe you can also give some comments on my TI's or tactic in general..

 

Thanks in advance !

[ryandormer]

Lack of creator

Although you don't have to play with a playmaker if you don't want to, I think part of the problem might be the lack of creator in the midfield three. I read a guide years ago ( cannot remember who wrote it, so can't give credit) that suggested that your midfield should ideally include a defender, a creator, and a runner (several roles would be a combination of those). In your midfield, you have a defender (DM(d)) and two runners (BBM(s) x2), but no creator. Additionally, all wide players--wingers and full backs--are on an attack duty, so they are predominantly runners, too.

If you really don't want the DM to be a 'creator,' then maybe one of your centre midfield duo should be. Perhaps try a RPM, so he can be both a creator and a runner. That would leave you with your two CM roaming from their position, and might cause an issue with shape, but it could still work. But I would be tempted to change one of the BBMs to something like an AP(s).

Alternatively, if you were willing to try the DM as a creator, change him to DLP(d) or (s), and leave both centre midfielders on BBM, and see if that works.

I'd probably also have one of the wide attackers on support also, so he can help the midfield.

However...

Too much roaming

I also wouldn't set all of the attackers to roam. Firstly, you have 'be more expressive' ticked, which makes the players more likely to roam a little bit anyway. Both midfielders are BBM, and so they will roam by default, and even more so with the BME instruction. Then you have specifically asked all three attackers to roam. The only players holding any kind of shape are the centre backs and the DM.

Hope that helps a little!

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

 

7 hours ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

Maybe you can also give some comments on my TI's or tactic in general

I definitely would not be so one-dimensional in terms of roles and duties. But in case you insist on the one-dimensionality, then at least try to create a bit better balance between your roles and duties. For example:

F9

IFat                                  IFat

MEZsu   MEZsu

HB

WBsu   BPDde  CDde  WBsu

SKsu

Hope you understand what I mean.

 

[made_in_turkey4]

5 hours ago, ryandormer said:

Lack of creator

Although you don't have to play with a playmaker if you don't want to, I think part of the problem might be the lack of creator in the midfield three. I read a guide years ago ( cannot remember who wrote it, so can't give credit) that suggested that your midfield should ideally include a defender, a creator, and a runner (several roles would be a combination of those). In your midfield, you have a defender (DM(d)) and two runners (BBM(s) x2), but no creator. Additionally, all wide players--wingers and full backs--are on an attack duty, so they are predominantly runners, too.

If you really don't want the DM to be a 'creator,' then maybe one of your centre midfield duo should be. Perhaps try a RPM, so he can be both a creator and a runner. That would leave you with your two CM roaming from their position, and might cause an issue with shape, but it could still work. But I would be tempted to change one of the BBMs to something like an AP(s).

Alternatively, if you were willing to try the DM as a creator, change him to DLP(d) or (s), and leave both centre midfielders on BBM, and see if that works.

I'd probably also have one of the wide attackers on support also, so he can help the midfield.

However...

Too much roaming

I also wouldn't set all of the attackers to roam. Firstly, you have 'be more expressive' ticked, which makes the players more likely to roam a little bit anyway. Both midfielders are BBM, and so they will roam by default, and even more so with the BME instruction. Then you have specifically asked all three attackers to roam. The only players holding any kind of shape are the centre backs and the DM.

Hope that helps a little!

Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

With this tactic i've had very effective results, please see picture. But maybe that has more to do with maybe good managemant rather than good tactic.
I'm now thinking of not let the 2 CM's roam , also not hold position, but no PI for them with RFP .

------------F9(s)-------------                 Roam
IF(a)---------------------IF(a)               Roam - Roam
-----CM(s)----CM(s)----                   Take more risks and Get further forward for the 2 roles.
------------DM(s)-----------                 Hold position and Take more risks
FB(a)-CD(d)-CD(d)-FB(a)             Full backs; stay wider
-------------SK(s)---------

I've decided to make the CD's not BPD's or else i'll have to much "long balls" because my SK, DM and CM's will also take more risks.

TI's will remain the same, as in the picture upside.

Preferred 11:
Firmino
Mané-Salah
Keita-Henderson
Fabinho
Robertson-Van Dijk-Joe-Trent
Allison

What comment can you make on this ?  

[made_in_turkey4]

35 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I definitely would not be so one-dimensional in terms of roles and duties. But in case you insist on the one-dimensionality, then at least try to create a bit better balance between your roles and duties. For example:

F9

IFat                                  IFat

MEZsu   MEZsu

HB

WBsu   BPDde  CDde  WBsu

SKsu

Hope you understand what I mean.

 

Thank you for your reply

I've also evaluate your tactic on my comment below. Can you also give a thought on that?

Thanks!

[RTHerringbone]

I don't quite understand what you're after? You're now sharing images of one of the best teams in the game battering sides left, right and centre. What input do you want?

Your early post seemed focused on what the MC roles should contribute  but you haven't said if the changes you have made there have given you the performances from them that you wanted. Does that matter to you if you're getting results?

[made_in_turkey4]

Just now, RTHerringbone said:

I don't quite understand what you're after? You're now sharing images of one of the best teams in the game battering sides left, right and centre. What input do you want?

Your early post seemed focused on what the MC roles should contribute  but you haven't said if the changes you have made there have given you the performances from them that you wanted. Does that matter to you if you're getting results?

hi,

I just want to make my tactic better and have views from other players as well, because i was also not pretty sure about my tactic.

[RTHerringbone]

So how can people help you make it better? What issues are there with a tactic that is regularly scoring 3 or more goals a game and barely conceding?

Does it play terrible football but get results? You haven't explained much at all about playing style other than in the first post, and you haven't since described whether the players are playing like you want.

[made_in_turkey4]

I mainly had issues with choosing roles for my CM's .. As said in my comment before, i want them to regularly support the forwards, play through balls and get in the box.
"RYANDORMER" convinced me of maybe not let them roam so i can have a better team shave in general, defensivly.
As thought of every role, i chose "Central Midfielder" with PI Get further forward and Take more risks.
Maybe this will get even better..
What do you think of my CM's issue?

[made_in_turkey4]

53 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

So how can people help you make it better? What issues are there with a tactic that is regularly scoring 3 or more goals a game and barely conceding?

Does it play terrible football but get results? You haven't explained much at all about playing style other than in the first post, and you haven't since described whether the players are playing like you want.

I mainly had issues with choosing roles for my CM's .. As said in my comment before, i want them to regularly support the forwards, play through balls and get in the box.
"RYANDORMER" convinced me of maybe not let them roam so i can have a better team shave in general, defensivly.
As thought of every role, i chose "Central Midfielder" with PI Get further forward and Take more risks.
Maybe this will get even better..
What do you think of my CM's issue?

[RTHerringbone]

What are the CM players actually doing since you made these changes? Are they supporting the forwards like you want now? Are they playing through balls? Are they getting in the box? Is it realistic to expect them to do all that AND retain a solid defensive shape?

[ryandormer]

@made_in_turkey4If the tactic is working, and you're happy with the results, definitely stick with it.

For me, looking at the tactic, there are still too many players desperate to get forward at all times, and not enough staying back to create chances. 

However, if you're consistently winning 4-, 5-, 6-, 7-0 every game, something is clearly working!

[made_in_turkey4]

21 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

What are the CM players actually doing since you made these changes? Are they supporting the forwards like you want now? Are they playing through balls? Are they getting in the box? Is it realistic to expect them to do all that AND retain a solid defensive shape?

 

22 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

What are the CM players actually doing since you made these changes? Are they supporting the forwards like you want now? Are they playing through balls? Are they getting in the box? Is it realistic to expect them to do all that AND retain a solid defensive shape?

hmm,

Maybe if they don't roam left to right because RFP is off, while they still go forward, they should stay central and offer then defensive pressing up forward, with the backup of the DM behind them.
Because Liverpool posesses realy quality players, i thought of an attacking tactic and because of the quality in attacking attributes, this gives me back very good results.
So against most teams in the game, Defensive shape comes of a later importance in my mind.

[made_in_turkey4]

19 minutes ago, 45thGenerationRoman said:

Lol that tactic goes against so much of what the so called ''experts'' on this forum claim and you're absolutely destroying teams. 

donno  just try to make a tactic that fits Liverpool and attacking football.

[45thGenerationRoman]

1 minute ago, made_in_turkey4 said:

donno  just try to make a tactic that fits Liverpool and attacking football

Good for you man! Whatever you're doing it's working!

[made_in_turkey4]

7 minutes ago, 45thGenerationRoman said:

Good for you man! Whatever you're doing it's working!

Thank you

[themadsheep2001]

I don't understand the issue here tbh. I'd leave it well alone really. It's a lot like Liverpool. Functional midfield, aggressive flanks.

What you're actually trying to do, is build a completely different style of play to what you have.

You're playing like Liverpool, but you want your midfield to play like City's

I'd save the current setup and start a new one

[made_in_turkey4]

19 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I don't understand the issue here tbh. I'd leave it well alone really. It's a lot like Liverpool. Functional midfield, aggressive flanks.

What you're actually trying to do, is build a completely different style of play to what you have.

You're playing like Liverpool, but you want your midfield to play like City's

I'd save the current setup and start a new one

hmm,

Ok i'll leave the topic by here then...
But thank you all for you're replies

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, made_in_turkey4 said:

hmm,

Ok i'll leave the topic by here then...
But thank you all for you're replies

It's a good solid replication of Liverpool, and its clearly very effective, so I would make minimal changes, and that would be based on personel, such as starting Thiago and using a roaming playmaker role on him, but I'm not sure I would change the whole concept, especially as Thiago is the only truly creative midfielder, the rest are relatively functional players

[made_in_turkey4]

28 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It's a good solid replication of Liverpool, and its clearly very effective, so I would make minimal changes, and that would be based on personel, such as starting Thiago and using a roaming playmaker role on him, but I'm not sure I would change the whole concept, especially as Thiago is the only truly creative midfielder, the rest are relatively functional players

I’ve tried to use Thiago many times but he didn’t impressed me really..
Maybe i used him in a wrong role or position, mostly i used him as a DLP on DM position. I thaught that he would contribute there but the results where dissapointing, so i finally, slowly put him with the substitus.
I teally like Keita and Henderson’s profile because they are complete midfielders in my opinion.
Keita’s dribbling and in general above average “creative” attributes alongside Henderson’s strong mental numbers with also above average creativity, i find them much creating in my highlights.
But yeah, they arent good in creating like f.e. KDB, Luis Alberto, David Silva,..
But it find it important that my midfielders are also competent in defensive manners so i prefer the likes of Liverpool midfielders more.