Illogical mental state

[DeanMon]

Can someone explain to me how could my team be overconfident ahead (per my assistant), but then turn nervous in the match?

How could someone be arrogant and nervous at the same time? No HT pep talk would make sense in that case. 

[HUNT3R]

12 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

Can someone explain to me how could my team be overconfident ahead (per my assistant), but then turn nervous in the match?

We need context though. What did you say in the pre-match talk?

Is this a match you're expected to easily win or expected to lose etc?

WHEN did they become nervous? Immediately nervous already when the Body Language shows up after 10 mins? Or later in the half? What was the score?

What sort of match is this? A pressure match like a final league position, rival or CL match?

While nervousness can be caused by a lack of confidence, it can also be because of pressure.

[DeanMon]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

We need context though. What did you say in the pre-match talk?

Is this a match you're expected to easily win or expected to lose etc?

WHEN did they become nervous? Immediately nervous already when the Body Language shows up after 10 mins? Or later in the half? What was the score?

What sort of match is this? A pressure match like a final league position, rival or CL match?

While nervousness can be caused by a lack of confidence, it can also be because of pressure.

Alright, fair enough. It is the semi-final of CL, hence an important match.

I am aware of the overconfidence through my AM, but I am aware of this "glitch" (that if I am being as demanding as "I expect a win", then they will be definitely nervous), so I choose "media has praised you..."

The game went 0-0 to HT, most of the team are ~6.6. So I tell them "I am not happy", because they are arrogant before the match and gave a bad performance. Then around ~60 mins, some of them are nervous. WTH?

I disagree with you that nervousness is because of pressure. Someone has high pressure like Bruno Fernandes (Evasive & Reserved) could be frequently nervous. So I think players are nervous whenever ME like them to be. 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, DeanMon said:

but I am aware of this "glitch" (that if I am being as demanding as "I expect a win", then they will be definitely nervous)

So far, you've not shown any glitch. Your team struggles with pressure based on what  you're telling us.

2 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

so I choose "media has praised you..."

So you're trying to give them more confidence (the rest of that talk is 'go show them why' or something similar) when they're already confident?

3 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

Then around ~60 mins, some of them are nervous. WTH?

Was it still 0-0? That's them starting to feel the pressure. In a match they're expected to win, been told they will and believed they will easily... it's not looking that way, so now they become nervous with all the pressure of 'needing' to win.

[DeanMon]

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

So far, you've not shown any glitch. Your team struggles with pressure based on what  you're telling us.

So you're trying to give them more confidence (the rest of that talk is 'go show them why' or something similar) when they're already confident?

Was it still 0-0? That's them starting to feel the pressure. In a match they're expected to win, been told they will and believed they will easily... it's not looking that way, so now they become nervous with all the pressure of 'needing' to win.

1) Pre-match: If I use "I expect a win", they will be nervous even earlier in this type of match. You can check yourself. 

2) Using "the media has praised you..." should be implying: Hey guys, if you think you are as strong as media praises you, if you think that you can crush the opponent, go out there and do it. So basically I tell them arrogance should be expressed by actual performance, not just mental state.

3) The game is still 0-0. Then I don't understand the mental logic here. If they show over-confidence before match, the mental state should persist throughout the match.

[HUNT3R]

7 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

1) Pre-match: If I use "I expect a win", they will be nervous even earlier in this type of match. You can check yourself

I use it all the time and I'm on 63 match unbeaten run, unbeaten season and a CL win with no nervous players in most matches. In some I will have one or two, but they're usually either young or struggles with pressure. Your players are struggling with pressure. You as manager need to manage the situation.

7 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

2) Using "the media has praised you..." should be implying: Hey guys, if you think you are as strong as media praises you, if you think that you can crush the opponent, go out there and do it. So basically I tell them arrogance should be expressed by actual performance, not just mental state

Yes and when it starts getting late in the match and that performance isn't there yet, they're feeling the pressure.

7 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

3) The game is still 0-0. Then I don't understand the mental logic here. If they show over-confidence before match, the mental state should persist throughout the match.

I've already explained this but, yes - there's over confidence, but at some point they're going to wake up and realise it's still only 0-0 (not the 2 or 3 nil they were expecting) and then it's going to get to them.

[DeanMon]

@HUNT3R

Okay, I am playing a perfect example of this "glitch".

Late stage of PL, my MU is running close with Liverpool, we are playing at home against Burnley.

Ahead of game: Some of our players show overconfidence. I told them "I expect a win", positive reactions from most of the team. Now at 30 min, 0-0, I have not made any shouts so far, Bennacer (who was not specified as overconfident, Spririted, Evasive, Reserved) is being nervous. Can you explain? It is even stranger that he is "having a good game" at 7.00?

If you want screenshots, I can send them to. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by DeanMon

[HUNT3R]

18 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

Can you explain?

The answer is still - pressure. His hidden pressure attribute is could be lower than the others or for some reason he's feeling more pressure than the others. You've put the pressure on with "expect a win", which isn't necessarily wrong as you're trying to avoid complacency.

Players have different hidden attributes and personalities. Some you can hammer and hammer and they'll continue fighting and working for you. Others will melt under pressure. As you get to know your squad, you can adjust how you handle your team talks etc.

In my team, I'm doing the same. I have to constantly fight complacency, being on a 63 match unbeaten run. Most of my team talks are either "expect a win" or "do it for the fans" (do a professional job). That means that I will have some players who start feeling the pressure, but I know who they are. Especially in pressure matches, I know who to select.

Even you've found (as shown in the screenshot) that a player can still perform, even if he's nervous. My team lacked depth in centre midfield last season, which meant I had a lack of options there. "Had" to use a midfielder there (who is still an excellent player) with only 9 for Pressure. That meant that he was often "nervous". He still ended the season with a 7.7 avg in the league and a 7.48 avg overall. Just because a player is nervous, doesn't mean he's now completely useless.

[DeanMon]

14 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The answer is still - pressure. His hidden pressure attribute is could be lower than the others or for some reason he's feeling more pressure than the others. You've put the pressure on with "expect a win", which isn't necessarily wrong as you're trying to avoid complacency.

Players have different hidden attributes and personalities. Some you can hammer and hammer and they'll continue fighting and working for you. Others will melt under pressure. As you get to know your squad, you can adjust how you handle your team talks etc.

In my team, I'm doing the same. I have to constantly fight complacency, being on a 63 match unbeaten run. Most of my team talks are either "expect a win" or "do it for the fans" (do a professional job). That means that I will have some players who start feeling the pressure, but I know who they are. Especially in pressure matches, I know who to select.

Even you've found (as shown in the screenshot) that a player can still perform, even if he's nervous. My team lacked depth in centre midfield last season, which meant I had a lack of options there. "Had" to use a midfielder there (who is still an excellent player) with only 9 for Pressure. That meant that he was often "nervous". He still ended the season with a 7.7 avg in the league and a 7.48 avg overall. Just because a player is nervous, doesn't mean he's now completely useless.

So what is the point of categorizing players by such personalities, just to see their behaviors contradicting and misleading gamers? Attributes' requirements for such personalities should be strictened!

This kind of behavior goes as far as some players show overconfidence, then after "I expect a win", SAME players are nervous within the first haft! It goes back to my first post: What kind of human psychology goes from overconfidence to nervousness within minutes? If you know you are nervous easily, can you be often overconfident? Vice versa, if you are arrogant enough in your ability, can you switch to nervousness within minutes? Is it some kind of bipolar disorder?

Ask yourself if this behavior makes sense to you.

[herne79]

There is one other very important factor in all of this - your manager.  Players will react differently to different managers, due to: your own profile; the repetitiveness and tone of your talks; and your relationship with your players.

So for (an extreme) example - if your manager has low motivation skills; has poor reputation; uses the same team talks often; is unassertive or overly aggressive when talking; and/or is new to the club / has annoyed some players then you probably won't get good reactions from your players.

Anyway, to specifically answer your question

1 hour ago, DeanMon said:

It goes back to my first post: What kind of human psychology goes from overconfidence to nervousness within minutes?

It's completely possible to do this.  You're playing Burnley (your example) "we're Man Utd, we should easily win this, we expect a win" (over confidence).  30 mins later it's still 0-0, the manager hasn't said anything from the touchline and "erm, it's not quite as easy as we thought, the gaffer's not going to be happy and the fans are starting to get on our backs" (nerves kick in).

[Pasonen]

2 hours ago, DeanMon said:

Ahead of game: Some of our players show overconfidence. I told them "I expect a win", positive reactions from most of the team. Now at 30 min, 0-0, I have not made any shouts so far, Bennacer (who was not specified as overconfident, Spririted, Evasive, Reserved) is being nervous.

What is happening at the field? Did he make a foul etc.?

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, DeanMon said:

So what is the point of categorizing players by such personalities, just to see their behaviors contradicting and misleading gamers?

Their Personality is separate from the other hidden attributes like Pressure.

[DeanMon]

8 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Their Personality is separate from the other hidden attributes like Pressure.

What does it mean? I am pretty sure personalities such as Light-Hearted, Spirited, Resilient implying high Pressure attribute.

So it is so confusing when a player with such personality is nervous. The Pressure requirement for such personalities should be higher!

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, DeanMon said:

What does it mean? I am pretty sure personalities such as Light-Hearted, Spirited, Resilient implying high Pressure attribute.

So it is so confusing when a player with such personality is nervous. The Pressure requirement for such personalities should be higher!

As I said - Pressure isn't part of a Personality. 

[DeanMon]

21 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

As I said - Pressure isn't part of a Personality. 

This post said differently.

[HUNT3R]

12 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

This post said differently.

OK. If that's true, then great - what you want is already in the game. My apologies, btw, if your link is correct  

[DeanMon]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

OK. If that's true, then great - what you want is already in the game.  

If you said, quoted, "Their Personality is separate from the other hidden attributes like Pressure."

Then, what constitutes Personality, @HUNT3R?

[HUNT3R]

14 minutes ago, DeanMon said:

If you said, quoted, "Their Personality is separate from the other hidden attributes like Pressure."

Then, what constitutes Personality, @HUNT3R?

I've already admitted (with you showing that link) that it's quite likely to be correct and I've apologised. I'm now in agreement with that link. I've posted that.

 

Someone obviously did tests and proven that those attributes contribute to a Personality. That's great and as I've said - proves there IS more of a link to other hidden attributes, which is what you wanted. 

Your player still got nervous because of he felt too much pressure. Nothing has changed in that regard though.