Brighton Wandering Seagulls - now with some Cityzens style? 4-3-3/4-1-2-3

[CaptCanuck]

Hi folks,

Quickish intro... Football fan, used to play PES in the 2000s, but never played FM before Covid came along and here we are.

I went with Brighton, as I wanted to avoid relegation and then try and build up a 'lesser' Prem club and had a soft spot for Chris Hughton (yes I know he's not there anymore but still).

• 1st season, hovered around 15th-17th most of the season, survived a Boxing Day summons to the chairman's office, won the last three to finish 11th (47pts). Relied on a strength up the middle Ryan-Dunk-Webster-Mooy-Maupay axis.
• 2nd season, got off to a great start, but bar a 5-0 drubbing of Sheff Utd couldn't score and defended well to the point of having 16 GF and 11GA after 19 matches (25pts). Lots of mucky, ugly football second half, ending the season with 31 GF 36 GA for 12th place (43pts).
• 3rd season, I couldn't be having that again, so added largely bog standard fluid counter attack with Attacking mentality to go along with existing modified gegenpress, swap between the two depending on home/away and opponent. Some more tweaks and a better squad and this season we won the League Cup and we're at 44 GF 36 GA for 6th (57pts) with 6 matches to go. But with the option to have a 3rd tactic and being a fan of Nuno and Wolves style of play, I thought I would try and add a 3-4-2-1/5-2-2-1.

With that, I've been reading FM formation theories and musings here and all over the internet and wanted to see what I could put together. Hopefully it is more an 'inspired by Wolves' style of play with good results and not a Wolves tribute band playing the Rose & Crown on a Monday night.

I've gone with this:

GK & Back 3: I want to play out of the back/short kicks when need be and watching highlights of GAs in my first season starting with Shane Duffy punting the ball down the field, I've got all BPDs.

WBs: I'd like Davies to be my Doherty and be the guy to get forward and score some goals, still trying to work that out with Gouiri and whether WB-A or CWB works better.

Midfield: Tonali to be the Neves-type player - although he is pretty much an everything player - and Reyna to be a more active goal orientated version of Moutinho

Wings: Gouiri I'd like to be the Jota cut inside guy who gets a bunch of goals and gets into the box. This is why I am trying IF-AT instead of IF-SU, which I should use to balance out the WB-AT Davies. Del Castillo, this guy just keeps chipping in with goals and assists, so really I may already have the Jota I want Gouiri to be.

CF: Zirkzee as CF is excellent on paper, but seems to go missing in matches, whereas Gouiri up front in my other formations does better.

As far as the Possession/Transition/Out of Possession, I think I may be bunging together Wolves strategy against big teams and smaller teams into one, with the Higher LOE and Standard/Lower DL, but that's still TBD.

 

Anyways thanks for reading, for an quality info source here on this forum, and for any assistance or ideas you have!

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[TheGoodRebel]

Hi there, I think the issue with Zirkzee might be that he's only got low work rate - so he probably isn't suitable to being a lone forward, especially as a CF as he'll be required to work pretty hard. Additionally, it's usually a better idea to have a lone striker with a support duty rather than an attack duty. You could try switching Zirkzee to a support duty but I have a feeling he still won't perform how you want because of his work rate.

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

Apart from a couple of tweaks I would make to roles and duties, your manner of defending looks a bit too aggressive for instructions such as pass into space, higher tempo and counter (plus 3 BPDs on top of all these). And if you don't have top-class players, such manner of defending can also be very risky defensively. 

[CaptCanuck]

7 hours ago, TheGoodRebel said:

Hi there, I think the issue with Zirkzee might be that he's only got low work rate - so he probably isn't suitable to being a lone forward, especially as a CF as he'll be required to work pretty hard. Additionally, it's usually a better idea to have a lone striker with a support duty rather than an attack duty. You could try switching Zirkzee to a support duty but I have a feeling he still won't perform how you want because of his work rate.

Thanks for that, I was looking right past it as he's my only legit option at CF - I am training him on 'Endurance' to try and get work rate up, but of course that's why his link up play is just not there. That would make sense that Maupay in previous seasons and Gouiri this season have had the consistency as PFs/AFs that Zirkzee hasn't as an AF (in my existing 4-1-4-1/4-2-3-1 formations) and trying to use him as a CF (whether A or S) hasn't really come off.

[CaptCanuck]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Apart from a couple of tweaks I would make to roles and duties, your manner of defending looks a bit too aggressive for instructions such as pass into space, higher tempo and counter (plus 3 BPDs on top of all these). And if you don't have top-class players, such manner of defending can also be very risky defensively. 

Thanks for the feedback. Ah ok, interesting. In my back 4 formations as BPDs they had an easier route out...

Where as with the back 3 that is no longer the case? (And yes I may have been in a meeting that didn't require a lot of attention :-)

That would explain some of the cool Ehlers passes to Williams on the 1/2 way line during good highlights, but yes could also be causing those free kicks conceded up there when Williams needs to clawback a bad pass. I should start checking more closely the match passing map, to this point I have been focusing on positions and heatmap.

 

So would it be better to have say, Dunk in the middle, be the conduit to move the ball along to Tonali or more aggressively to Davies or Reyna and have the other two as straight up defenders? Those two with solid enough passing/vision/technique to move the ball along simply as CDs, but won't try and be cute with it?

One wildcard is that Sarr is a green Libero, but I wasn't too keen on having him disappear into the midfield, as I like his pace and back left positioning to cover for Davies when he goes on a wander.

[CaptCanuck]

Had a chance to have a bit of a play last evening and took your point @Experienced Defender about doing too much defensively and looked to see what I could do with the aggressive instructions, so what I think I now have is their low block close down by:

• dropping the LOE from high to much lower, while maintaining the standard D line
• Retaining the urgency, so within than tighter low block they are still trying to win the ball back
• punting the counter-press and GK harassing entirely

The short kicks and play out of defence are likely counter to the quick counter, but in Davies, Reyna, and Gouiri I have 3 sprightly players at 3 different levels - both x & y axis - to turn and try and peg it down to the other end when possession is won. Using a DLF instead of a lazy CF seems to have helped link the front 4 better overall.

I guess more match play will help see if it's needed or not, but with Davies on WB-A and the IF-SU to tuck in, I am thinking adding a left overlap instruction is unnecessary white noise.

For the remainder of this season, reckon I'll use my modified gegen against the minnows, as seeing you cannot combine the two into one is a good first step for me.

As always, any top tips, pointing out of redundancies, and the like is appreciated :-)

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

• dropping the LOE from high to much lower, while maintaining the standard D line

Okay, but you don't need to go from one extreme to the other. Standard DL coupled with just lower LOE (instead of much lower) should suffice. You also need to keep in mind that the selection of the LOE is a critical decision relative to your intended style of play. 

[CaptCanuck]

30 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but you don't need to go from one extreme to the other. Standard DL coupled with just lower LOE (instead of much lower) should suffice. You also need to keep in mind that the selection of the LOE is a critical decision relative to your intended style of play. 

Good stuff! I'll give that a go and thanks for highlighting LOE importance, I'll do some more reading on that topic.

[CaptCanuck]

So maybe less wandering and more seagulling?

I played out the string of last season with the Wolves-esque formation/style and while it was OK and the results were decent, I didn't want to commit to a back 3 from a squad building POV, but I wanted to keep the idea of their front 3, the Neves, and Doherty roles and when I dropped the back 3, use the extra midfielder as a Dendoncker type.

And so I've ended up with the following, with Nenem a more active Moutinho type - as I was worried a Mez-S might bump into Reyna, I went with BBM with go foward and run into channels selected. And I hope the 5 attacking players can contribute to good counter-attacking, with Tonali not needed to get engaged after kicking it off until the opposition is inside their 18 yd box and then he can ping it around from between the two half-circles when we are trying to break them down from close.

I'm still wondering whether I should put Reyna on W-AT, so Nenem could be Mez, but I will let that play out a little longer.

Now that we're into Season 4 and we've rep-jumped a little, I am starting to see the opposition treat us a bit differently. Good performances for a couple comfortable wins, a couple promising draws against big sides, but also a couple 1-1 draws and a 0-1 loss against minnows. I am guessing the direct passing into space really doesn't help when, if not exactly parking the bus, some opposition is parking a delivery van.

I guess I should go to my Gegen-tactic in those matches and see how that plays out. I guess it is just the typical club evolution from lower table to mid table that requires changing the tactic to go along with it?

[HanziZoloman]

On 05/06/2020 at 20:24, CaptCanuck said:

and see how that plays out. I guess it is just the typical club evolution from lower table to mid table that requires changing the tactic to go along with it

Well the AI is adopting to the tactic that’s why I always have some good matches before it gets worse again and then you have to tweak again. Figure out how you are figured out and change. 

[Overmars]

On 05/06/2020 at 14:24, CaptCanuck said:

Now that we're into Season 4 and we've rep-jumped a little, I am starting to see the opposition treat us a bit differently. Good performances for a couple comfortable wins, a couple promising draws against big sides, but also a couple 1-1 draws and a 0-1 loss against minnows. I am guessing the direct passing into space really doesn't help when, if not exactly parking the bus, some opposition is parking a delivery van.

I guess I should go to my Gegen-tactic in those matches and see how that plays out. I guess it is just the typical club evolution from lower table to mid table that requires changing the tactic to go along with it?

Against worse teams, you almost have to use a high press or else they'll happily hold the ball with their defenders and waste time. A lower line of engagement just isn't going to work in situations where you need goals.

Secondly, your 4-defender formation looks a little conservative. You have three defenders on defend duty, a DLP on defend duty, and a BWM ahead of him. If you are going to go super-conservative with your central midfielders then give your wingbacks attacking freedom. If you want to keep a wingback on defend duty then you can give your central midfielders license to attack more. You could experiment with roles like RMP, REG, MEZ, CM(a), and AP.

And in your first tactic, I think that WB(d) is not doing you any favours. You already have three defenders back at all times, so adding a fourth defensive defender is going to make it harder to overload your opponents. A libero might have helped considerably, though typically with three at the back I would expect both wingbacks to be given at least support duties.

[CaptCanuck]

13 hours ago, Overmars said:

Against worse teams, you almost have to use a high press or else they'll happily hold the ball with their defenders and waste time. A lower line of engagement just isn't going to work in situations where you need goals.

Secondly, your 4-defender formation looks a little conservative. You have three defenders on defend duty, a DLP on defend duty, and a BWM ahead of him. If you are going to go super-conservative with your central midfielders then give your wingbacks attacking freedom. If you want to keep a wingback on defend duty then you can give your central midfielders license to attack more. You could experiment with roles like RMP, REG, MEZ, CM(a), and AP.

And in your first tactic, I think that WB(d) is not doing you any favours. You already have three defenders back at all times, so adding a fourth defensive defender is going to make it harder to overload your opponents. A libero might have helped considerably, though typically with three at the back I would expect both wingbacks to be given at least support duties.

Thanks for the reply! The back 3 got punted, as I don't want to have two different formations. But ya I could go WB-S on the right and see if that loosens things up. He joins in quite well once the opposition is pushed back into the 18yd box, but it wouldn't hurt to have him join during the counter as well. I will try that in some WC-break friendlies, thanks for the suggestion.

In my Gegen tactic (same formation) I swap the DLP (set on SU) and BWM (changed to HB) and switch between Mez and BBM depending on who is starting, so I have a more direct press/offensive set up that way. In my Counter I do want to try a CM instead of the BWM, but I am worried about too many cooks, as my BBM is really growing into the team and Davies/Gouri down the left is a good partnership.

TBF, I think part of the slow start was down to the schedule (I know, I know easy excuse) as since we got thumped against BVB, we've played some really good stuff, against largely teams we should expect to beat, to get us up to 5th at the WC-break. Paying more attention to the scouting has helped too. I always look at it, but now I'm having more a think, whether I go Gegen or Counter against the weaker teams and I have a 3rd slower in possession tactic for the better teams on the other end of the spectrum.

Of course while we're now on a bit of a cheery run, we have Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, ManU x 2 for 5 of our 7 matches in January. The schedule sure giveth and taketh.

Edited June 9, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

@HanziZoloman - I did see that Lyon opponent marking thread and I do make specific changes for opposition instructions against players, I don't specifically man mark with a specific player of my own.

I did try it for kicks in the 2nd 1/2 of an easy win and I kept getting - player dragged out of position - warnings from my assistant and it didn't look like the guy was any tighter to him, than if I just do opposition intructions tighting marking.

You've managed to get it working a bit?!

[HanziZoloman]

@CaptCanuck well it’s not about just man mark somebody or using OI. It’s about changing tactics and formation every game instead of having one formation. I like it because it’s easier for me (than building one successful formation) and I use the whole squad.

[CaptCanuck]

On 09/06/2020 at 23:45, HanziZoloman said:

@CaptCanuck well it’s not about just man mark somebody or using OI. It’s about changing tactics and formation every game instead of having one formation. I like it because it’s easier for me (than building one successful formation) and I use the whole squad.

Oh sure, fair point :-)

I guess I latched onto that bit as being 'new' for me, as I do already try and change up things between my formations depending on oppo (based off the same-ish 4-3-2-1/4-1-4-1 formation) - but I would like like the counter to be able to be 50%+ of my matches and my main one.

[HanziZoloman]

1 hour ago, CaptCanuck said:

Oh sure, fair point :-)

I guess I latched onto that bit as being 'new' for me, as I do already try and change up things between my formations depending on oppo (based off the same-ish 4-3-2-1/4-1-4-1 formation) - but I would like like the counter to be able to be 50%+ of my matches and my main one.

How do you concede with your team? 
I am third place 5 points behind rangers. 
you said That you‘re new to the game. I needed so many time to get through and have some fun because it was really difficult for me to build a successful team. Of course managing the small clubs adds to the challenge. Getting in front of the Glasgow clubs seems impossible for me.

[CaptCanuck]

9 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

How do you concede with your team? 
I am third place 5 points behind rangers. 
you said That you‘re new to the game. I needed so many time to get through and have some fun because it was really difficult for me to build a successful team. Of course managing the small clubs adds to the challenge. Getting in front of the Glasgow clubs seems impossible for me.

Not by open play, after 14 matches it looks like this, plus at least 1 penalty I can remember. So that means at most 5 goals in 14 Prem matches from open play. Annoyingly I do try and get set piece training in, but with all the two match weeks, I've not been doing it as much lately.

Against the good teams I do give up good chances, but have gotten away with it for the most part, in that run of 1-1 matches. Of course now my crazy stretch starts, so I may be singing a different tune in a couple days.

[HanziZoloman]

Crazy stretch? You mean Christmas and Boxing Day?

Sounds like a decent defence. I am always having a hard time against the lower placed teams. Grabbing the win after going behind. I concede almost always from long shots just Celtic and rangers grab a goal from the box. 
my players are not the best of the league and hearts got no money. Playing with my youngsters  

Allan is injured very often. 

[CaptCanuck]

On 11/06/2020 at 23:24, HanziZoloman said:

Crazy stretch? You mean Christmas and Boxing Day?

Sounds like a decent defence. I am always having a hard time against the lower placed teams. Grabbing the win after going behind. I concede almost always from long shots just Celtic and rangers grab a goal from the box. 
my players are not the best of the league and hearts got no money. Playing with my youngsters  

Allan is injured very often. 

@HanziZoloman - Apologies for the long delay, finally got back to playing.

Congestion yes (although from Boxing Day to the Euro Cup final we played 38 matches, the whole 5 months was 'festive', lol) but more so the opposition. And as to be expected it went largely how I figured it would (maybe I was being too negative going in, but it was a tough go. The good thing is I came out of it after the Villa, Bournemouth, Bolton matches looking to tweak for counter formation and also had an awesome run after Jan:

While I stayed with this as my default counter (occasionally change mentality & WBs/DLP/BWM duties):

I did add a pressier tactic, with an extra player higher up to try and get less ambitious opposition to have to do more than just pass it around in their own half. That got me this (again I may change mentality & some duties depending on opponent):

Edit - I just saved over an existing formation, hence the silly name that doesn't really match the tactic, lol

It definitely helped with the last 3/4 Prem matches against the less good sides.

The Old Firm apart, is your side now the 3rd best reputation? Has it impacted your formation? Or things are still chugging along nicely.

Edited June 20, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[HanziZoloman]

@CaptCanuck - No problem. With work, wife and a 9 month old son I usually play just a game a day. 
your run in winter looks very difficult, hard times to lose nearly every match. What did you do, tweaking and hoping for better days?

your squad looks like real team with strong partnerships and a good tactic. Great that you could turn things around later the year. How did you finished?

I have some trouble with the scouting it’s a little frustrating because Hearts have nearly no money. I started new season with just a free player who was on loan before (Kaziah Sterling) and a cheap backup for my defence (Dion Conroy). Had some offers for my best players (Souttan and Srbeny) which could bring some cash in. BUT first time ever they didn’t want to leave maybe they believe in success with hearts? 
we lost 1st round euro Cup against Krakow stupidly but are unbeaten in the league after some games (Dominated Rangers in 0-0).

I am still doing this tactic gymnastics which is still much fun. I am learning how to look out the opponent and usually I dominate the game. My strikers aren’t that good so we sometimes have trouble shooting the goals. Usually one is enough for the victory.

not too bad ... I am looking forward for this season as my youngsters have some experience now and are really fine players and the team completely stayed together which is really unusual. 

[CaptCanuck]

Ya I just stuck with the counter, knowing top teams are tough and Jan was tough :-) Against the lesser teams I started by using that 2nd formation in the 1st half. If it worked I'd get ahead and could then switch to the counter when they had to press for the equalizer in the 2nd half.

The season ended as such, which I reckon is a good marker each season until my 20-22yr olds have developed into peak 25-28yr olds and then maybe a we can hope for a title run if we can catch Liverpool in an off year - they have won all 4 league titles so far and done two doubles and a treble!

Now in the offseason a consortium bought us and gifted us two players we don't need, but it does have me thinking how to be more offensive.

I could drop the BWM and add a CM (S or A) or in the other formation I could have a proper AM now and then leave Nemen as a BBM with Tonali in the middle.

The trouble is how many offensive-minded players is too many to be able to successfully get the right mix of players to keep the counter as the main tactic?

[HanziZoloman]

On 24/06/2020 at 07:10, CaptCanuck said:

The trouble is how many offensive-minded players is too many to be able to successfully get the right mix of players to keep the counter as the main tactic?

I guess that’s hard to tell, couldn’t be too many as the box is crowded elsewise.

Maybe you Check Tactic Gymnastic now  

[CaptCanuck]

4 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

I guess that’s hard to tell, couldn’t be too many as the box is crowded elsewise.

Maybe you Check Tactic Gymnastic now  

Yes :-)

I definitely need to have a proper think before season 5 starts. I could end up with a situation where my BPD x 2 - RWB - DLP are my only defensive players and 6 are expected to engage in the attack regularly and TBF, the DLP and RWB will be involved as well really.

The 'easiest' thing is simply to put Sissoko in as a BWM against good teams and against other teams drop him, move Nenem to the left, put Reyna in his spot and put Vignato in as the RW/RIF. So back 4 stay the same, but in the front/middle go:

      DLF
IF     -       IF
BWM - BBM
      DLP

to

       DLF
IF      -        W
BBM - MEZ
      DLP

[HanziZoloman]

I am still asking why you won’t just adapt to the opponents tactics?

if you play against an attacking side with regular 4231 there is space between the MCs and the Defense line, where you can put a playmaker to link runners from both flanks and a  striker (or two). You could still have counter in your DNA.

or if the opponents don’t fill in the AMC space you can play a regista there without much trouble. 
if they have an aggressive WB you can exploit the space with an attacking winger. you will use the depth of your squad for tactical variations. You can even create three basics which you can tweak.
 

I am second with my hearts now and face Celtic upcoming match. My team is not really strong but opponents have really hard times against my side. Because adapting tactical against the opponents threats is easier for me than finding holes to attack. 
I am looking forward to see what you are trying and keep following your save. You are very creative and inspiring in your way of playing FM! 

[HanziZoloman]

On 20/06/2020 at 03:13, CaptCanuck said:

The Old Firm apart, is your side now the 3rd best reputation? Has it impacted your formation? Or things are still chugging along nicely.

I am building on this reputation as I am in my third season (or 2nd?) well last time we finished 3rd and had a nice run at the beginning. This year we have a better run at the beginning and the Team is dominant even against the long feared Rangers. Now Celtic and usually I brace myself (winter is coming) before this games. Not at this moment, well I believe we will be defeated because Celtic has much much better players but we will give them a fight they have not seen before. My formation is changing almost every game but I have some principles to hold on. Had played two matches with a 4231, before that it was a 343 and before that a 42211. Now I am toying with TIs too. Sometimes narrow with quick and short transition sometimes slow and direct. Every game is a new one and that’s new to me. Before that I was always trying to find the one formation.

[HanziZoloman]

Lost it  

The Setup with a DLPs, a Vs and an APs Was too much for my team and after 1st half I‘ve been 0:2 behind after some stupid goals. The reason should have been the low cover in my DM area. 
switched into a Regista / DMs partnership in halftime and dominated the second half completely without having that good scoring opportunities. Both teams had low chances and Celtic made the most of it. 1st half they had some 7.x ratings for their attackers, 2nd half they only had one 7.x in CD.

my wingers should have made the pace of the game exposing their WB but they stayed quiet the whole game  much disappointing 

edit: first loss after 10 unbeaten  much disappointment 

Edited June 26, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[CaptCanuck]

16 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

I am still asking why you won’t just adapt to the opponents tactics?

if you play against an attacking side with regular 4231 there is space between the MCs and the Defense line, where you can put a playmaker to link runners from both flanks and a  striker (or two). You could still have counter in your DNA.

or if the opponents don’t fill in the AMC space you can play a regista there without much trouble. 
if they have an aggressive WB you can exploit the space with an attacking winger. you will use the depth of your squad for tactical variations. You can even create three basics which you can tweak.
 

I am second with my hearts now and face Celtic upcoming match. My team is not really strong but opponents have really hard times against my side. Because adapting tactical against the opponents threats is easier for me than finding holes to attack. 
I am looking forward to see what you are trying and keep following your save. You are very creative and inspiring in your way of playing FM! 

I need to revisit that Lyon or Lille guy's thread (I definitely don't go to his depths), but I will change based on the opponent, I just do it at a macro level with the formation and then much smaller within it:

• go for the overwhelm with the GP against crap stay back teams
• use that 2nd formation I screenshotted above for decent, but defensive teams
• use the counter for everything else

Now within the counter for example, if a team has a worrying AMC (whether AP, AM, SS) I will swap Tonali and Sissoko. This puts my big defensive mid on top of the guy, while freeing Tonali up to get forward more in the mid-level. If I get ahead and they get more aggressive, I have a really good backup striker (and some new wonderkid I just bought) who I can play R IF for the final 20mins to come on fresh and open them up. And of course I do apply different marking instructions to positions.

It'd be interesting to try basing everything off of one formation, but my mental model has trouble seeing that :-) And needing to win matches while tinkering is tricky. That said I am in the preseason, so now is the time!

[CaptCanuck]

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Lost it  

The Setup with a DLPs, a Vs and an APs Was too much for my team and after 1st half I‘ve been 0:2 behind after some stupid goals. The reason should have been the low cover in my DM area. 
switched into a Regista / DMs partnership in halftime and dominated the second half completely without having that good scoring opportunities. Both teams had low chances and Celtic made the most of it. 1st half they had some 7.x ratings for their attackers, 2nd half they only had one 7.x in CD.

my wingers should have made the pace of the game exposing their WB but they stayed quiet the whole game  much disappointing 

edit: first loss after 10 unbeaten  much disappointment 

If you are going to lose, it might as well be to the first place team. Does 2nd get you into a Champions League qualifier or a Europa League spot?

I've never tried a Regista. Maybe in my more possession-ish formation, I should switch the DLP to a Regista? Since I have removed the DM layer player in favour of an AM layer, the Regista might have more bite?

[HanziZoloman]

3 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

I need to revisit that Lyon or Lille guy's thread (I definitely don't go to his depths), but I will change based on the opponent, I just do it at a macro level with the formation and then much smaller within it:

• go for the overwhelm with the GP against crap stay back teams
• use that 2nd formation I screenshotted above for decent, but defensive teams
• use the counter for everything else

Now within the counter for example, if a team has a worrying AMC (whether AP, AM, SS) I will swap Tonali and Sissoko. This puts my big defensive mid on top of the guy, while freeing Tonali up to get forward more in the mid-level. If I get ahead and they get more aggressive, I have a really good backup striker (and some new wonderkid I just bought) who I can play R IF for the final 20mins to come on fresh and open them up. And of course I do apply different marking instructions to positions.

It'd be interesting to try basing everything off of one formation, but my mental model has trouble seeing that :-) And needing to win matches while tinkering is tricky. That said I am in the preseason, so now is the time!

That’s sounds big, of course you‘re adapting to the opponents and left me with some food for thoughts. 
I just push you to that Lyon Thread because I want to know how you would use it. You are very successful with your Brighton guys.

later in that thread there is a user called il Luce or something who is trying the same things and that was very inspiring stuff to read for me.

The regista is described as more aggressive than the DLP I use this role when I have plenty of space in the DMC area and when I see my team have much possession. The regista will position himself around the middle circle and rotate the ball with the attacking teammates sometimes interspering a killerball or two.
 

Looking forward to the next updates. Maybe you‘ll post a screenshot of your new wonderguy. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[CaptCanuck]

Right, finally got a chance to run through the preseason. Much like I am not keen on a back 3, getting productivity out of the AMC doesn't seem to be my thing either. Guessing I'd need to drop my AM level W/IF down to the midfield or punt the midfield down to DM level, so instead I've come up with this as my second tactic and so far it's worked a charm:

Since the Prem restart I guess I've been reminded of how class Man City are when they are on and thought I could try and use them as inspiration for my more pressing tactic to offset the counter tactic. I'm gegen'd out and wanted to have a tactic that played more football and wasn't just trying to blitz the opposition, with classy passing and the like and after the preseason I'm liking what I'm seeing.

Tonali and Reyna affect D. Silva and DeBruyne. Tonali attributes wise matches Kevin, but role wise I think RPM is Silva and Mez is Kevin, but either way having two creatives in the midfield, with a lynchpin to link stratas and make easy passes in a CM(D) role looks good to this point. When I moved to this tactic, Tonali was out and I had two different guys with Reyna and that worked as well as it does now, but obviously once healthy he is back in. I am tempted to move Sandro to the CM role and bring in a 3rd creative; against poor teams it should be fine, but maybe a bit too aggressive for better teams?

Gouri, Salcedo, and Viggy as Sterling, Aguero, B.Silva/Mahrez are also looking good. Vignato was a takeover buy I am going to keep and has had a few cracker jack run outs in the friendlies so far.

Back 4, I can switch the WBs to A/S/D depending on opponents and whether I have a more offensive minded CM and with the CBs, my previous Dunk/Ehler pairing is going to start being shuffled out to cup matches.

[CaptCanuck]

Quick look at the the players screenshotted above. Reckon 8 should retain their starting positions as the season wears on:

Need to throw in a potential replacements, key subs one too...

[CaptCanuck]

@HanziZoloman - these are the few other guys I'd be happy starting (well maybe not Pereira, but certainly the others) and Torres is now the league starter at LCB and Ngah and Esteves have also stepped into league starting spots due to injuries.

The tricky question is do I add Nenem, who is already quite good at 20 (and certainly for a club like Brighton) and drop Sissoko, but then how do you fit Tonali, Reyna, and Nenem into the same 3 man midfied? Ngah was the player I was referring to earlier who was my CF/IF/W super sub last season.

[HanziZoloman]

@CaptCanuck wow! Now this is a strong built squad. My respects! For the good work. 
Maybe you choose the players with a look on the opponent, do you need fast players as are the subs or a good freekick taker paired with a header (?) something like this, it’s good to have strong players in the back. 
did you scout those dudes and nurished them to greatness? Well if you did, it’s fantastic! 
at the moment I am in south of France (Holidays), when I come back I continue my one match a day Hearts save. Got a thread about them here anywhere, I‘ll dig it out, maybe you can give some inspiration how to get the most out of them. To break the rule of the Glasgow Maniacs is very tough!
After playing one season like this Lyon guy we‘d talk about, I formed three more or less stable formations.

How are the results at the moment?

 

[CaptCanuck]

That is a nice place to be :-)

As I thought, Torres is too good to not start and no partners Quaresma. First time I have had a proper CD, as previously gone BPDx2. He's a giant, has 5 goals in all comps, and is my overall highest rating avg. Yes exactly, all things being equal I have 7 guys I'd happily start every match and then swap striker/1 mid/rwb depending on the opponent. Along with picking one of the now 3 formations and picking who I want to mark closer.

I've actually been using the newer '2nd tactic' as my main tactic, I am enjoying the interplay in the midfield and how my LIF and RW are working with them. To the point they're my main goal threats, with me still trying to find my best striking option.

I actually added a 3rd tactic, based off my 2nd tactic, that is largely a 'slower' version of it, with two dif MF roles, a dif striker role and a few dif TIs. I want it to stretch out defenses and maybe make more room for the striker and BBM to latch onto wide passes/crosses and searching passes from the DLP.

I am at the turn of the year, 1/2 way through the league and things are going well - apart from likely being bounced by Liverpool in the League Cup soon, as they absolutely stuffed us in the league 5-0. There is still a huge gap to them (after them it's a 6 team scrap) and a big gap to the likes of Utd/Ars who I need other sides to beat.

[HanziZoloman]

Wow! Nice work Captain. Have you won the league now?

How did you scout do you do anything exceptional? I just buy off the best players of the other scottish teams as I want a largly UK Team and PL/ CS players are way too expensive for my poor hearts.

[CaptCanuck]

Right long time no update :-)

So as far as the results from the tactics go, at the completion of Season 7 we achieved this:

Using the same (more or less 433) I've been using the last 2 seasons: 433 with a 'flat' midfield and a front 3 sharing the goal scoring duties. We had a combined 63 matches between the league and 3 cup competitions and used it for 38 matches and from open play the DLF had 11 goals, the IF 14, and the W 15. So spreading out the goals worked a charm. We were really solid at the back with 24 cleansheets in 38 league matches.

I've tried to strip down the instructions as much as possible and was thinking I could remove shorter passing and WBIB and see what happens too. Now that it is another preseason I am looking at ways to get the AMC going - which is a perennial thing I try with the 3rd tactic.

I'm giving this a go for a few friendlies and see how the AM moves about the place and if he joins in on the right-side overload... or not. Going to try out some different striker roles and see if that helps with the AM. I went back to my regular 433 and it simply clicks, playing the two same friendlies. That said I am playing with an empty tactic, so it's not quite like for like.

Edited September 23, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[HanziZoloman]

Nice! Congratulations for the famous treble with Brighton. Long way to go.

I am very curious which attacking patterns you see moving, especially as you use a RPM. Did you try a DLP in this position earlier?

[CaptCanuck]

12 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Nice! Congratulations for the famous treble with Brighton. Long way to go.

I am very curious which attacking patterns you see moving, especially as you use a RPM. Did you try a DLP in this position earlier?

This gets kind of jumbled on the tactics board here, but this is a typical example of sustained possession build up on the right side:

• the RPM will shift to serve as an outlet and/or get involved in the back and forths, if the possession goes on long enough
• reverse balls to the IF, especially far post ones from the WB can lead to good chances, if the RPM reverses it, than the build up can shift to the left, with the RPM getting involved there, along with passbacks to the CM, although sometimes the left WB will go back to the CD
• on the right, typically if the WB/W gets down to the touchline/corner flag, a pullback to the corner of the box is on to the MEZ or the WB/W not carrying the ball

I should try a DLP for a couple friendlies to refresh my memory, but IIRC the DLP was just that bit more static than the RPM. He wasn't nailed to his spot, but the CM would end up more involved, with the DLP not getting quite so far across. But again it's been a while so I cannot remember exactly, I think it also depended on which player I had in that role.

In transition the W/WB can simply peg it down the touchline and then it's a matter of the DLF/MEZ/IF keeping up with play or a moment of individual skill from the W to get a shot off. This is where I typically see the dreaded non-cutback pass from the W to the rushing MEZ/DLF and instead they attempt a shot at an impossible angle.

Edited September 23, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[karanhsingh]

Nice analysis, BTW how do you make these tactic boards?

Also would love to see screenshots of your best players.

[CaptCanuck]

6 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

Nice analysis, BTW how do you make these tactic boards?

Also would love to see screenshots of your best players.

Thanks! I'll post up the players when I'm back off my work machine. And for the tactics I use that sharemytactics.com site and then copy/paste it into paint to add the arrows. That said, sharemytactics has its own arrows but with more limited directions/styles.

[CaptCanuck]

@karanhsingh - Right finally got to that :-)

Basically the first 1/2 in each group (Def/Mid/Att) would be my all-things-being-equal starting 11 using my base 433 (with the MF roles all being CM, instead of RPM/CM/Mez) - as I've been trying out my midfields this preseason as CMs in one of the various duties and just letting their abilities and how the back 4 and front 3 all link to them:

July 2026 BTW

[karanhsingh]

Nice, that's a very solid set of players you got there!

[CaptCanuck]

8 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

Nice, that's a very solid set of players you got there!

Thanks! There are a lot of interchangeable parts, which does make sorting out a 'best 11' from the front 6 tricky. I also have too many players picking up unwanted traits from each other, outside of mentoring, which is annoying.

There are too many 'drops deep' and 'dictates tempo' in the side, which I don't like. I am trying to get as many 'One-twos' as possible though.

Trying to play totalish football I do think that having a front 6 of the following is maybe what should be aimed for:

IF - DLF - W               IF - DLF - W
                                          AM
CM - CM - CM             CM - CM

That said, Funck or Bravo (also thought of trying them as DLF/F9) would make an excellent #10 and is why I bought them, but worried swapping the AM for an AP or T is going to wreck the pass it wherever style that generic CM and AM roles should provide... or at least I think should provide.

Edited September 28, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[HanziZoloman]

Looks nice! Also the idea behind using just plain roles in MF. 
but I cannot develop one-twos with all my guys, what’s the matter?

[CaptCanuck]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

Looks nice! Also the idea behind using just plain roles in MF. 
but I cannot develop one-twos with all my guys, what’s the matter?

I was able to do it with 4 of my guys - 1 WB, 2 MF, 1 AF - and am currently having a go with my new aquisitions. I know one of the coaches did say 'No, the player is not suitable for that trait due to blah blah blah" but I cannot remember whether I tried anyways. I know I have tried a trait or two the coach say no to and have had varied success/failure doing so.

[Djeon36]

Hey just wondering are you still using your 343 tactic? Also have you tried out any 352 variation like how Potter likes to play his team?

[CaptCanuck]

4 hours ago, Djeon36 said:

Hey just wondering are you still using your 343 tactic? Also have you tried out any 352 variation like how Potter likes to play his team?

Hiya - Back 3s/5s and AMCs are two separate things that I have yet to really work out. So I haven't tried a 343/352 for many seasons now. That said, I just drew against Spurs I had to win to have a chance at the title - it now looks like Spurs 1st, the Seagulls 2nd - so I have 3 more matches in the season to mess around with. So I will try this out:

Distribute to CBs - Play through the middle - shorter passing - higher tempo... are a few of the TIs that come to mind. Maybe I could use a CM(s) for the Bissouma spot, but regardless I would have longer passing/take more risks passing on for that role and then have roam and dribble more for the BBM. Or go CM(s) and add those still, paired with CM(d) as the double pivot. Maybe play through the middle won't work if I cannot get the CM(d) and the BPDs to find the WBs, but we'll  see. Likely make the R-IF a W, as the WB(a) can still get outside him, but gets the W into better crossing position on the counter.

In transition counter press and in defense higher line with a spit block having the front 3 press or if I want to channel opposition to one side, press with the L-IF, PF, and BBM.

Edited October 16, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[Djeon36]

Wow awesome post! i'm def going to try this out with my Nottingham forest right now. For the 352 what positions do you think the 2 strikers play? I personally think they're both PF-A with instructions to run wide and have their CAM run into the box 

 

Also let me know how you make the 343 in the end it would be awesome to see this tactic work out in FM20/21.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Djeon36

[CaptCanuck]

On 17/10/2020 at 08:26, Djeon36 said:

Wow awesome post! i'm def going to try this out with my Nottingham forest right now. For the 352 what positions do you think the 2 strikers play? I personally think they're both PF-A with instructions to run wide and have their CAM run into the box 

 

Also let me know how you make the 343 in the end it would be awesome to see this tactic work out in FM20/21.

I misspoke :-) I meant 523. I've got a bunch of excellent options on the wings and like to play that type of front 3. That said with 2 strikers a PF/AF & maybe a CF/DLF, just in a convention wisdom way.

So I did this for the last 3 matches (3-0, 2-0 wins against bottom 1/2 teams and 0-1 loss to ManU) with some fiddling around as I went.

Gave the CM-Su more dribbling, get forward, roam, move into channels. Had the two BPDs get wide in possession. Otherwise pretty much left everything standard. I might try moving the WBs up a strata and see what happens and there are definitely role/TI/PI things to try too - like an IW/IF instead of W and maybe did MF ones - as I worry it'll be a bit too much like Brighton, possession without the cutting edge.

Here's the pass map against ManU. You can see 29 is the RWB and he is indeed getting well forward and there is an expected higher focus on the right side with that RWB and DLP on that side. Obviously the AF was largely isolated (in passing/possession terms)

And here we are against one of the other sides, I forget which one (Norwich or Nottingham Forest IIRC). Got the striker in more involved with RWB crosses/passes, and generally it's a more balanced passing map.

Think maybe a PF(s) could help connect the front when the play comes through the middle.

PF drops to link with the CMs, both IFs, and one of the WBs goes beyond for example. Easier said of course, but something I will have a look at tonight.

Right @Djeon36 so I've made changes to get to this, which after running through some preseason friendlies, I am starting to like:

Apart from keeping generic roles in the MF 2 and front 3, I've added more TIs than I ever thought I'd use. But I reckon it's gotten me closer to Potterball... for lack of a less bad name :-)

I'm using a split block with the front 3 pressing, L-CM(su) dribbles, R-CM(su) passes, PF drops deep, and I gave PF, R-IF, and L-CM roam from position to provide some flare and creativity, while I want the rest of the players to maintain their shape. I can write up a better explanation of things once I've run through some more friendlies and see if I get the play I am expecting, But it seems a decent start. Thanks for the kick in the backside to give it a go!

Edited October 20, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[HanziZoloman]

Looks great! Which season are you in now?