Setting up a Pulis-esque 4-4-2

[OrientTillIDie]

I’m thinking about starting a LLM save and want to go about it a bit differently to how I normally would. Usually I’ll go as possession based as I dare with less able players and press as much as possible. However, I’d like to go for the opposite of that on a new save. I remember this being a topic years ago when trying to set up how Pulis used to at Stoke but with the Team Instructions screen being very different to how it was three or four years ago, I wondered what sort of things people would include. 

From what I remember, it was a solid back four with combative full backs, two central midfielders who would get the ball out to the wings wherever possible and then at least one big target man and someone who sniffed around for chances who was usually also very physical. They used to play relatively deep and force the opposition out wide, confident in the knowledge that their massive centre backs would deal with crosses most of the time. 

My gut instinct is a 4-4-2 with either central midfielders in the main midfield strata or in the defensive midfield strata (not sure which would be better). I feel like the wingers primary duty would be to attack knowing the full backs were at best supporting. Maybe even on defend against bigger teams. Definitely a target man as one of the strikers but I’m not sure what his partner would be.

Team instructions, I’d guess at standard or more direct passing, focusing play down the flanks (and probably distributing the ball there from the keeper) and being more disciplined. In transition I’d guess at regrouping when losing possession and probably countering when gaining it. Out of possession, I’d say a lower line of engagement and a deeper defensive line (although I’m reluctant to do that on this game because I always see people complaining about it as a “lose now” feature and I’ve never been particularly successful using it), as well as getting stuck in.

The thing I’d be least sure on is the mentality. I’m assuming start on Balanced and see what happens

Before anyone says “well show us what you’ve got so far” or “why not just try yourself”, I will, don’t worry. I’m not asking for anyone to do this for me. More opening this up to discussion to see if anyone has any ideas because I know there’s a lot of good minds on this site and I’m interested to get people’s takes on this to see what we can all come up with.

[TheGoodRebel]

Hi there,

There’s an interesting thread that was started for FM17 based around this style of play. It’s been continued for FM20 also so you might find some useful ideas in here. 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/409391-my-guide-to-hoofball/

[OrientTillIDie]

Thanks for this. Some interesting reading in there and lots to take on board. 

[TheGoodRebel]

Hope it helps 

Looking back at Stoke in their Pulis era prime - I think it was more of a 4-4-1-1 than an actual 4-4-2. They had Kenwyne Jones as their big man up top and then the likes of Jon Walters feeding off of him.

It will be interesting to try and replicate the long throw technique of Rory Delap that's for sure!!

[Jean0987654321]

Some threads for thought

 

 

[OrientTillIDie]

Thank you for the links.

So I opted for Torquay in the National League because they have some decent wingers. Tactically what I’ve gone for is as follows:

               Gk (d)

FB(s) CD(d) CD(d) FB(s)

W(a) BBM(s) CM(d) W(a)

             AF(a) TM(s)

 

I tried the full backs on Defend duty but my wingers were so isolated that I had to compromise on that. I tried with Wide Midfielders but again that didn’t provide enough support going forward. I’ve also considered changing the BBM to a standard CM on Support because I don’t know if I want my midfielders breaking too far from my defence. Equally, I’ve considered changing my TMs to a TMa to make sure he’s in the box. It’s not like he needs to come too deep to link the play because the ball will be coming directly to him. 

Mentality, I went for Cautious but I have one on Attacking as well which I figured might be necessary to get on the front foot a bit more, especially as it’s a relatively negative system.

Team Instructions In Possession, I’ve gone for Extremely Direct Passing and Higher Tempo. I’ve experimented with focusing play down the flanks and it seems to work a bit better doing that. I’ve also tried Be More Disciplined but I’m not sure that has a huge effect. I’m currently playing Narrower because when I tried Wider and Standard, my wingers were a little isolated on the sideline. They still go wide when necessary but they also tuck in to be an extra body in the box when needed.

In Transition, I’ve gone for Regroup when we lose the ball and Counter when we get it. Kick it Long from the Keeper and aim it at the Target Man. I toyed with the idea of throwing it out wide but realistically I want the ball going forward as quickly as possible.

Out Of Possession, I’ve gone for Lower Defensive Line and Lower Line of Engagement, as well as Get Stuck In and Defend Narrower (to encourage the opposition’s play outside).

PI wise, I’ve put most of my players on Shoot Less Often to encourage play down the wings. This has helped. After reading the threads, I’m also tempted to get my strikers to man mark specific players but I’m not sure yet.

First game of the season I played Hartlepool at home and lost 2-0, although there were some promising signs and I did create chances, while keeping them largely at bay but for the two goals. Second game away to Chorley was a 2-2 thriller. I led twice which was a bit disappointing but I figured that an away draw as a newly promoted team was okay. I then played 5th placed Sutton at home and went for the Attacking system (it has the same TIs) and I won 1-0 which I was delighted with. They had a lot of shots but from distance and a couple of half chances from crosses but that’s obviously what I’m giving the opponent because I can deal with that. Interestingly my strikers haven’t been my main goal threat. It’s my wingers tucking in when the ball is on the opposite flank that seems to be an effective way of scoring. Something to figure out as I go.

All in all, I’d say a relatively positive start. I’m going to try and get back on it later and see how it goes. I do also have a more defensive system with two DM (one support, one defend) for if I come up against a big team in the cup or the league leaders in a league game. I used it three times in the preseason against Swansea U23s, Bournemouth U23s and Plymouth and was unbeaten so there may be legs in that idea too.

 

[Experienced Defender]

As always, I would keep it simple (at least initially, until the tactic is tested to see what potential tweaks could make sense):

TMat    PFat

Wsu    CMde    BWMsu     Wsu

FBsu    CDde   NCBde    FBsu

GKde

Starting team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - much more direct passing, hit early crosses and play for set pieces

In transition - counter

Out of possession - lower LOE, defend narrower and get stuck in

Player instructions - both wingers to get further forward

Then I would carefully watch what happens and make tweaks accordingly as I see fit.

[OrientTillIDie]

22 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

As always, I would keep it simple (at least initially, until the tactic is tested to see what potential tweaks could make sense):

TMat    PFat

Wsu    CMde    BWMsu     Wsu

FBsu    CDde   NCBde    FBsu

GKde

Starting team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - much more direct passing, hit early crosses and play for set pieces

In transition - counter

Out of possession - lower LOE, defend narrower and get stuck in

Player instructions - both wingers to get further forward

Then I would carefully watch what happens and make tweaks accordingly as I see fit.

Sound advice. It’s funny because I was thinking to myself earlier that having both strikers on attack duty goes against everything I know and have read about the game. Then I remembered that I’m trying to make something of an anti-football tactic so it kind of makes sense to zig when everyone else zags 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, OrientTillIDie said:

It’s funny because I was thinking to myself earlier that having both strikers on attack duty goes against everything I know and have read about the game

That "rule" had applied to pre-FM19 versions of FM (except for exploit tactics, which have never made sense anyway). But since then, having both strikers on attack duty has become a very logical choice in tactics that are primarily counter-attack-oriented (which hoofball/pulisball certainly is). Because the tactical creator has been improved as well as the match engine. And the introduction of LOE as an instruction has been quite revolutionary in the sense of getting the FM even closer to real-life football. 

[johnnyyakuza78]

Great to have discussions about this dug up after all this time.

This is a great article which happens to quote a number of posts from this forum but sums up a lot of the same thoughts nicely

https://dictatethegame.com/2019/11/10/hoofball-fm20/

For my part I've found that there are 2 ways to generally go about doing Hoofball. Firstly there is the attacking, school playground variety that is described in that article, using positive mentality to get the ball forward quickly and have your players screaming around the pitch. That is fun but also seems to lead to some nice looking football, which is against everything I believe when making a Pulis style tactic.

The other way to go about it is to go with a low block version which is utterly unambitious, but seems to fit the Pulis, Bruce, Dyche school a bit more. 

I play much like the formation Experienced Defender uses, but with a defensive mentality, fullbacks on defend, 2 no nonsense centre backs and Regroup turned on. 

Can't say it's going to win many leagues, but there is a level of satisfaction grinding out 0-0s or knicking a goal. To do this is I usually switch to something even more defensive if I'm not losing after 75 mins, like a low tempo 451. Feels really pleasantly anti-football.

[OrientTillIDie]

Okay, so I’ve put my Torquay save on the back burner for the moment and started a new save where I would be able to more effectively put the ideas into action. I opted for Port Vale because they’ve got players in the key positions - decent wingers and three great big lumps up front so I’m not starting from a blank canvas.

I started with the idea that @Experienced Defender suggested and worked from there. Preseason wasn’t going great until I made a couple of little tweaks that so far seem to have made a bit of a difference. I changed the mentality to Cautious for no other reason than trial and error but that seemed to work so I’ve stuck with it. I’ve also added Regroup which has also improved my defensive stability.

Position wise, I’ve opted for two normal central defenders on defend duty because it wouldn’t click using the No Nonsense centre back. I’ve also flicked the full backs to defend duty which has also helped a bit. I’ve also changed the BWM to a CMs and that’s had a positive impact.

My main issue is the little man striker. I think this may well be down to the fact that I don’t have any top options but I’m really struggling there. I started with a Pressing Forward but he was too far away from my Target Man. I’ve experimented with an Advanced Forward and a Poacher but neither are really providing good results at the moment. They’re either missing decent chances or straying offside an absurd amount of times.

Results so far haven’t been spectacular but I think the signs are promising. I lost my first game away to Colchester 1-0 but played well, won my first home game against Northampton 3-1 thanks to some set piece magic and a lovely knock down and finish but weirdly from my Poacher to my Target Man. Lost 1-0 away to Blackpool in the cup, then lost 1-0 away to Salford before drawing 0-0 at home to early high fliers Forest Green. All the goals I’ve conceded have either been defensive lapses (which I guess will happen at this level) or a screamer from distance, but that’s obviously what I’m offering them so I’ll accept that happening once in a while. 

I’ll update as I go. Thanks for all the advice so far.

[Columnarius]

Have you experimented with sit narrower for either the DR|L or the MR|L?  It depends on role as to whether that's an option but just curious.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Columnarius

[OrientTillIDie]

44 minutes ago, Columnarius said:

Have you experimented with sit narrower for either the DR|L or the MR|L?  It depends on role as to whether that's an option but just curious.

I’ve got my MR and ML on Winger Support. I considered it with my full backs but to be honest, because I don’t have the ball much when my full backs are near it, I’m not sure how much benefit it would be. With my central midfielders sitting relatively deep to create essentially a 6 man defence, I’d worry they’d all get in the way.

[johnnyyakuza78]

I find that I often have similar problems with my attacking forward, whether he is a poacher or pressing forward. You do see big gaps between attack and midfield which is to be expected and maybe even encouraged with long ball football, but it also means that you rely on a very one dimensional route to goal.

Meaning that you need your strikers to be on top form and the opposition to be quite generous. 
 

This is why my game plan is usually to keep a clean sheet and hopefully nick  a goal before the end. My strikers will need pace and good mentals to take advantage of limited opportunities.

 

I have also experimented with inverted wingers and narrow wide players, and while it occasionally does ok I think that it doesn’t combine well with full backs who stay so far back, you get zero over laps and the opposition can stay narrow and make life very difficult for you.

[OrientTillIDie]

Yeah, finding that balance is really tricky. My plan is to get through this season with my job intact and then sign players that properly fit my system. At the moment I’m fitting square pegs into almost square holes so it’s not quite there yet. Ideally what I want is a striker like you described, some great big lumps in midfield who can kick pieces out the opposition, physical full backs and massive centre backs. What I’ve got isn’t bad but it’s not ideal either. I’m thinking mid table will do me this season and then I can push on next season.

[johnnyyakuza78]

What I like about long ball is it’s generally quite easy to find those types of players for a good price. Mainly because they are so one dimensional that they are not highly rated. You don’t need all rounders at first so a striker with good pace can get you quite far, and defenders who can’t pass isn’t such an issue.

I think you will need to adjust once your team gets better, once sides decide to low block you then it can be very frustrating. At that point I usually go a lot wider and positive , bring a fullback forward and get one of my central mids to be more of a BBM.

I think a more direct wing play tactic is more efficient for when you get better, if that was your aim.

[OrientTillIDie]

I guess the ultimate aim is to get to the Premier League, hopefully as perennial underdogs because I’m rubbish at being the favourite in a game. 

Thanks for the tips. I’ll keep them in mind if I do come up against a low block. I’ve read all of your posts on the long ball style so I really appreciate you taking the time to pass on your wisdom.

[johnnyyakuza78]

1 hour ago, OrientTillIDie said:

I guess the ultimate aim is to get to the Premier League, hopefully as perennial underdogs because I’m rubbish at being the favourite in a game. 

Thanks for the tips. I’ll keep them in mind if I do come up against a low block. I’ve read all of your posts on the long ball style so I really appreciate you taking the time to pass on your wisdom.

Dunno if I’d call it wisdom, I’ve not won much outside of a few promotions. I get joy out of making such an unpleasant club.

My current target in my game is to create a side with a squad personality  of ‘unsporting’ and to create an academy that produces total bastards.

[OrientTillIDie]

7 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Dunno if I’d call it wisdom, I’ve not won much outside of a few promotions. I get joy out of making such an unpleasant club.

My current target in my game is to create a side with a squad personality  of ‘unsporting’ and to create an academy that produces total bastards.

😂😂😂

I think that’s a great goal to aim for! A squad of players that kick anything and everything that moves.

[Columnarius]

Also consider long throws from the sideline to big hulking physical players that can toss aside their marker before knocking one in.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11701/11983014/stoke-city-how-rory-delaps-undefendable-long-throws-caused-premier-league-chaos

Knap's tactics have some excellent examples of long throw routines.

[johnnyyakuza78]

I posted in the Hoofball thread about my latest attempt at creating horrible anti football
 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by johnnyyakuza78

[OrientTillIDie]

58 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I posted in the Hoofball thread about my latest attempt at creating horrible anti football
 

 

 Just had a look... seems promising!