Tactical frustrations

[bdixon]

Into my 2nd season with Bayer Leverkusen and I am getting very frustrated by the style of play I'm seeing with my current tactic. After a pretty decent first season where we finished 2nd in the league and managed to get to the semi-final of the cup. I have went and strengthened my team with some pretty decent young players.

Current Team

Now the tactic I'm currently using a possession based 4-1-4-1.

 Now the issues I'm having are we are having attempts at goal but nothing of worthwhile. We are winning most games however only 1-0 and most of the attacking play is just hard to watch. Can you see any glaring issues that might be hindering my attacking play? or offer any advice on what changes might help make my attacking play more fun to watch.

Also I would like Kai Havertz to be star player either shining with goals or assists. Last season he did ok pitching in with 9 goals and 5 assist.

Thanks in advance.

[sejo]

4 ore fa, bdixon ha scritto:

 Now the issues I'm having are we are having attempts at goal but nothing of worthwhile. We are winning most games however only 1-0 and most of the attacking play is just hard to watch. Can you see any glaring issues that might be hindering my attacking play? or offer any advice on what changes might help make my attacking play more fun to watch.

 

Unfortunately it's the actual ME: 25 shots on target but no highlights in 90 minutes, plus world class strikers not scoring, attacking midlfielders stuck on 6,5 ratings for the whole season. But hey, they will tell you to untick some of your TI (which by the way can be really useful, but we should face reality and probably hope for the next patch). 

[bdixon]

Really??? After 4 months of release there are still issues with the ME... How disappointing.

[XuluBak]

The ME is never going to be perfect for everyone, all the time. Are there issues? Absolutely. Are strikers "broken?" Not that I can tell. FWIW, I find situational crossing (or lack thereof) by far the most frustrating element of the ME. By a lot. 

Players hit dips in form. Teams adjust. It sounds like you brought in new players and switched tactics? It takes time for your squad to adjust. That's much more noticeable this year than last. That said, I don't think there's anything "wrong" with your tactics, but...

I'm not a huge fan of the PF role for a lone striker, especially with your TIs already setting you up to press aggressively. With both wings cutting inside, I'd prefer a DLF(s), F9(s), or CF(s). Also, with both wings cutting inside, I'd advocate for one, if not both, of your FBs pushing forward more aggressively. That being said, I generally prefer one of my AMR/L cutting inside and the other set as winger(A), with the FB on the side of the IW/IF/RMD being the more aggressive of the FBs. 

I much prefer DLP and/or RPM, depending on players/setup, to AP.  I think the best midfield trio I've found so far in an aggressive pressing 433 has been HB(d), DLP(s), RPM(s). With your midfield, I might not be as aggressive with my FBs as normal, allowing Tonali to be a DLP(d), with Demirbay and Havertz in front of him. 

Also, if you're not finding a breakthrough, or creating quality chances, then I'd recommending easing up your press for a spell during a match and seeing if you can catch them out with a counter (playing into space for your pacy front three). 

 

[bdixon]

Thanks very much for the analysis. I've made some changes based on your recommendations and I would appreciate any feedback. First game with the changes resulted in a nice 3-0 vs Frieburg so that was pleasing.

 

[HanziZoloman]

19 hours ago, bdixon said:

Now the tactic I'm currently using a possession based 4-1-4-1.

Looking at your tactics I can see some issues: you have much higher LoE and play counter, well then there is no space to counter.

also you want to play possession football but counter-press and counter as TI that’s paradox.

either way I would drop LoE to standard, to have some space to play the ball also I would remove Counter if want to play possession and use Counter-press only situationally. 

You can also remove TI play out of Defense as you already distribute to CB and FB (which is more flexible, the GK decides what to do).

the flanks are a little one dimensional. You could use natural overlap on your right flank with IWs and FBa.

now you have just to find good roles for your players. I like an IWBs on the other side as he naturally underlaps and can be as well a threat with longshots and keep pressure on opponents buildup play. But you can also use the wide of the pitch with a WBs.

Also I had good experience with HB as Defence Security, the two MC have more attacking Freedom. 
havertz: I would try him as a playmaker in the center or as threat from the wings IWs or IFa (the last ones I believe to be more are dangerous)

hope that helps you further 

good luck!

[Experienced Defender]

20 hours ago, sejo said:

Unfortunately it's the actual ME

No, it's not the ME. Just look at the tactic and see how unbalanced it is, instead of blaming the ME for everything. 

 

On 23/02/2020 at 18:45, bdixon said:

The ME works nicely, people just need to design their tactics in a sensible manner. Which this one so obviously is not.

And even with a tactic like this, he is still 2nd in Bundesliga. Which means that the ME is actually very forgiving even to bad tactics.

[sejo]

1 ora fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

The ME works nicely, people just need to design their tactics in a sensible manner. Which this one so obviously is not.

 

It's not my intention to argue about this, everyone here is trying to help and it's beautiful!

But it's not normal to have 2-3 or more world class strikers failing every chance in front of the keeper. It can happen of course, but not everytime. Plus, what I've got by reading the forum, are the same advices (play out of defence, pressing block, higher defensive line and standard pressing line if you want to play possession football, i.e.), like if we should all use the same tactic. Boring, isn't it?

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, sejo said:

It's not my intention to argue about this, everyone here is trying to help and it's beautiful!

But it's not normal to have 2-3 or more world class strikers failing every chance in front of the keeper. It can happen of course, but not everytime. Plus, what I've got by reading the forum, are the same advices (play out of defence, pressing block, higher defensive line and standard pressing line if you want to play possession football, i.e.), like if we should all use the same tactic. Boring, isn't it?

Of course people don't need to use the same tactic. All they need to do is think about what makes sense and what doesn't; what is well-balanced and what isn't; what helps create space in attack and what runs counter to it... and so on. That's the whole philosophy. World-class strikers (or players in general) mean nothing in a poorly constructed tactic. Conversely, one can overachieve with average players if he or she strikes the right tactical balance that suits these players.

[bdixon]

So @Experienced Defender what would you suggest to make it more balanced? 

[Experienced Defender]

22 minutes ago, bdixon said:

So @Experienced Defender what would you suggest to make it more balanced? 

Okay, let's see... 

 

On 23/02/2020 at 18:45, bdixon said:

On 23/02/2020 at 18:45, bdixon said:

the tactic I'm currently using a possession based 4-1-4-1

First off, this tactic is not possession-based. Especially the setup of roles and duties is not possession-friendly in terms of tactical style. 

Question: Do you want the tactic to be (more) possession-based? 

[bdixon]

@Experienced Defender well so far this season our average possession stats are sitting at 46%. 

Ideally what I would like is possession with intent. I’m not really confident going into games even with lesser opponents. 

[Experienced Defender]

2 minutes ago, bdixon said:

@Experienced Defender well so far this season our average possession stats are sitting at 46%. 

Ideally what I would like is possession with intent. I’m not really confident going into games even with lesser opponents. 

If so, you first need to set up roles and duties in a significantly different manner. What would be an optimal setup for you depends on your players, so it's hard to tell which exact roles and duties you should employ. But I can give you an example that can help you understand what's the basic idea:

PFat

IWsu                                      Wsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

FBat     CDde   BPDde    IWBsu

SKsu

Note how differently the duties are set up compared to your tactic. Then look at the difference in terms of roles.

Do you now better understand what I was talking about?

 

[sejo]

21 ore fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

Of course people don't need to use the same tactic. All they need to do is think about what makes sense and what doesn't; what is well-balanced and what isn't; what helps create space in attack and what runs counter to it... and so on. That's the whole philosophy. World-class strikers (or players in general) mean nothing in a poorly constructed tactic. Conversely, one can overachieve with average players if he or she strikes the right tactical balance that suits these players.

Look at this: even if my tactic was poorly constructed, I've had 22 shots on goal and my world class strikers (like ronaldo and messi) didn't score at all. Fun is that their keeper wasn't even amazing! 

Of course this is just an example, as it happened so many times since the last patch. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by sejo

[bdixon]

On 24/02/2020 at 23:03, Experienced Defender said:

If so, you first need to set up roles and duties in a significantly different manner. What would be an optimal setup for you depends on your players, so it's hard to tell which exact roles and duties you should employ. But I can give you an example that can help you understand what's the basic idea:

PFat

IWsu                                      Wsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

FBat     CDde   BPDde    IWBsu

SKsu

Note how differently the duties are set up compared to your tactic. Then look at the difference in terms of roles.

Do you now better understand what I was talking about?

 

Yes I appreciate my original tactic might of been some what aggressive with the choice of some player roles. I have made some amendments based on the example given above and results/playing style has improved.

My next issue now is getting the best out of particular players, mainly Havertz. I'm currently using him in the Mez/A role hoping to get more goals of him. Ideally I would like him to be my Hamsik.

[HanziZoloman]

2 hours ago, bdixon said:

My next issue now is getting the best out of particular players, mainly Havertz. I'm currently using him in the Mez/A role hoping to get more goals of him. Ideally I would like him to be my Hamsik.

Well I would use him as a IFat or RMD on the wings to get the most of his threat. In some tactics a SS works fine but than you have to change everything again. He could easily be trained in every offensive position.

[sejo]

23 ore fa, sejo ha scritto:

Of course this is just an example, as it happened so many times since the last patch. 

@Experienced Defender no answer? I would like to know your tactical point of view

[sporadicsmiles]

24 minutes ago, sejo said:

@Experienced Defender no answer? I would like to know your tactical point of view

There is no tactical point of view to give here. You have not posted a tactic, but a result. And since it is a match, you have not told what changes you made. Also one match in isolation is not sufficient to show everything is broken. Could have just been one of those days. They happen in real life too. If you are consistently having 22 shots on target and not scoring, then your point can be made. Besides, this is not the place for such things. You should post on the bug forum if you think there is a bug. With pkms and examples of shots you think should have scored. 

Now do not get me wrong, I think this match engine is so poor that I have gone back to FM19 to continue an old save on there and will wait for a patch. This is not because I cannot win or cannot get a tactic working. I can, on both counts. In fact I have found it easy to win, achieving more than I expect in my Milan save. Rather I think the ME is overly reliant on crossing for goals (across all AI teams too) and I think the football is slow and unattractive in general. Perhaps this is me getting grumpier as I get older. I preferred the ME pre-patch (as in the ME patch, not the transfer update).

My point here is that just because you dislike the ME (you are not alone) does not mean you can abandon designing sensible tactics. This is still the main reason why users struggle with the game. Either they have unbalanced tactics, or they have no idea what they actually want their tactic to do. Both lead to poor results, because both show there is no plan. You can blame the ME for being dull as dishwater this year, but you cannot blame it for every defeat and not playing well. Plenty of people are able to produce winning football (myself included), and I do that using common sense design of my tactics. This is a principle that will always be applied.

Finally, people post here for help with their tactics. So that is what we try to give. Personally, I like to try to guide people through my thought process so we arrive at a way of playing together. Others (like ED) give more directed advice (which is great). Many others are somewhere between. That is what these forums are for. It is not the place to moan about the ME stopping every tactic from working.

[sejo]

First of all, I'm not blaming anything: I'm trying to be useful (of course you didn't read my other threads but it's ok).

24 minuti fa, sporadicsmiles ha scritto:

There is no tactical point of view to give here. You have not posted a tactic, but a result. And since it is a match, you have not told what changes you made. Also one match in isolation is not sufficient to show everything is broken. Could have just been one of those days. They happen in real life too. If you are consistently having 22 shots on target and not scoring, then your point can be made. Besides, this is not the place for such things. You should post on the bug forum if you think there is a bug. With pkms and examples of shots you think should have scored. 

I've already exposed the strikers problem, I'm still waiting for a relevant answer!

24 minuti fa, sporadicsmiles ha scritto:

Finally, people post here for help with their tactics. So that is what we try to give.

I've already did it.

24 minuti fa, sporadicsmiles ha scritto:

My point here is that just because you dislike the ME (you are not alone) does not mean you can abandon designing sensible tactics.

That's my point mate! Designing tactics is the best part of the game, but I think we are just burying our heads in the sand: there is a big problem with the latest ME, let's do something about it. Lot of people here is complaining about the same things: strikers don't score. Instead of facing the problem, I always read on the forum that we need a winger on one side and an inside winger on the other, a MEZ and a carrilero etc.

Look at the other threads: each one ends with the same tactic (nothing against people who try to help of course), this:

10 ore fa, bdixon ha scritto:

PFat

IWsu                                      Wsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

FBat     CDde   BPDde    IWBsu

SKsu

So that's it?

Edited February 26, 2020 by sejo

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, sejo said:

@Experienced Defender no answer? I would like to know your tactical point of view

First off, this is not your thread, but someone else's. It's not fair to hijack other people's threads, because you can always start yours own (which you have already done more than once).

Secondly, as @sporadicsmiles righty noted: 

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

There is no tactical point of view to give here. You have not posted a tactic, but a result

 

[sporadicsmiles]

5 hours ago, sejo said:

That's my point mate! Designing tactics is the best part of the game, but I think we are just burying our heads in the sand: there is a big problem with the latest ME,

As I noted, it is entirely possible to be successful in the current match engine. Even with strikers scoring. As Experienced Defender notes, this thread was started by someone else, asking for help. If you start a thread, I would genuinely be more than happy to discuss with you. I do not want to overtake someone else's thread though. It is not fair. They want to get help and we are distracting from that. If you do not want to start a thread you can also PM me and we can discuss. Let's not take over this thread though.

[sejo]

13 ore fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

First off, this is not your thread, but someone else's. It's not fair to hijack other people's threads, because you can always start yours own (which you have already done more than once).

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to.