Need help for my 4123

[Hdefte]

I just feel like getting more and more frustrated. The only teams I've had succes with until now are the big teams like Manchester City, where it seems like every tactic work.

As soon as i go outside the top teams, im really struggeling.

I am therefore seeking some advice for my Bayern Leverkusen tactic.

This is what i currently looks like. I have tried a few different roles, mentality etc.

I just cant seem to create any real chances.

My idea was to play out of defense, and let Havertz find the offensive players with his passing and vision, when they are making the runs.

I have some PIs:

Shoot less often on my FBs

AML: Mark tighter, Close down more, sit narrower

AML: Mark tighter, close down more

I wanted to let my front 3 close down a bit more, but still keep the structure of the rest of the team when we are out of possesion.

 

Hope some of you clever guys in here can help me a bit 

[Pedroig]

First, kudos for not going crazy with TI's!

I'm not a fan of short passes and pass into space combo.  

Where are you trying to get space/overload from?  Are you getting overlaps from your DL?  It would look like you would be building up left, to free up your attacking IF on the right, if so perhaps tweaking the BBM to a MEZ or CAR in support, both will bring more overload to your left with the CAR being the more defensive minded player.  Creating that overload should free up space for your PF and IF to operate in, with the PF being a "short pass" option and the IF being a "far post" option.

[Hdefte]

10 minutes ago, Pedroig said:

First, kudos for not going crazy with TI's!

I'm not a fan of short passes and pass into space combo.  

Where are you trying to get space/overload from?  Are you getting overlaps from your DL?  It would look like you would be building up left, to free up your attacking IF on the right, if so perhaps tweaking the BBM to a MEZ or CAR in support, both will bring more overload to your left with the CAR being the more defensive minded player.  Creating that overload should free up space for your PF and IF to operate in, with the PF being a "short pass" option and the IF being a "far post" option.

Thanks a lot for the respons, i will give that a try.

I opted away from looking for overlap on the left, since i felt that would be overdoing it. But would you recomend trying that too?

[Pedroig]

I don't know if you need to with IW(s) it should invite some natural overlap.  The question is how often do you want that to happen.  If you use a MEZ or CAR then there is the potential to have three players out wide on the attack 1-2 wide, 2-1 in the half-space, depending on their vertical distribution this could be a good (nice spaced triangle) or bad (ugly line or bunched triangle).  With a CAR I'd envision the IW in the half space attacking the goalline at the box, with the CAR behind him just outside the box also in the half space with the FB out wide mid-box area.  Nice triangle, should pull both CD's and outside support to them (4 bodies covering 3) which would create the following options, which may pull the FB/WB into the boc to help cover the PF:

1.  PF in the mid being unmarked, for either a shot or a one-two shot.

2.  AP as a cycle option to either refocus or reset the attack

3. If the other flank pulls in narrow, Cross to the IF on the far side of the post/box, 

Another option would be flip the AP and BBM which would give same type of option on either side, since the AP tends to roam about quite a bit, but tends to favor his side, but will get out wide, 

[Hdefte]

I'm about to give up and just download some tactic.

I made the changes and still no succes at all. Other than I started great with a draw against Dortmund and a 1-0 victory over Munchen after i reloaded from the season start.

After that the results have been horenderus. In the last 5 games have i made 1 goal in open play and 1 goal from a penalty. The only game that the tactic showed potential was a 4-2 victory against Shaktar, where Bailey made 2 goals at the backpost, after crosses from the left where the defense was pulled out of position.

I went for the MEZ on support option paired with an AP on support on the central midfield. I have tried making the MEZ attacking and the other MC as DLP. But none of the options really created any chances offensively.

I'm honestely pretty lost and don't know where to begin to fix this tactic. The distance from my midfield to the attackers just seem to big and the players are having trouble getting the ball up field.

[Experienced Defender]

On 24/11/2019 at 15:56, Hdefte said:

4123 is my favorite system and IMHO it's actually the easiest one to set up a good/decent tactic, simply because it is the best/most balanced formation. 

What would I first change in your tactic? Here is the list:

- remove: pass into space, lower tempo and low crosses in possession (leave them all on the default setting)

- either remove distribution to CBs or keep it but also add FBs (so that the keeper would have as many available options as possible for such type of distribution)

- change the AMR from IFat to Wat (works better with a PF on attack as the lone striker)

- change the DM's role from BWM to some that protects the back-line better and more reliably (instead of pressing around like mad). Options: anchor, HB or standard DM on defend duty

- if you want to use a BWM (on support), then a lot better position for him would be MCL (instead of the BBM). Another good option for this particular (MCL) position is carrilero

- the RB should be slightly less conservative, so that he could better help in attack while still retaining defensive solidity (potential options are WBde, FBsu or IWBsu/de)

Other potential tweaks would depend on the exact style of play you want to implement and/or the overall quality of your players.

Good luck!

[Angus Osborne]

In my limited experience with FM20 it seems to take half a season for the players to master a new tactic

[extremeskins04]

I have my tactic with Man Utd setup like this.  It works really well.  It's a 4-1-4-1 with craft Defensive Midfielder.    I have Overlap on both sides, slightly shorter passes while still passing into space, but honestly you don't need to.  I could probably still not pass into space and be fine.

I'm playing Wider offensively stretching out the defense, higher tempo with low crosses to create more chances.

Defensively I have decent Full Backs that can 1 on 1 alot of wingers so I can play extremely narrow in the back and basically be a pinball machine to their shooting.  I also don't need "Play out the back" instructions cause it's done automatically with BPD's.   I don't normally do extremely tight marking just in case one of my players gets beat by speed demon forwards.  I still do Get Stuck In.  Sure I get a few more yellow cards, but it's worth the price you pay.

It's worked well for me.  I beat Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal and only lost two games this year so far.  About 30 games in my first season.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by extremeskins04

[Pedroig]

19 minutes ago, Angus Osborne said:

In my limited experience with FM20 it seems to take half a season for the players to master a new tactic

You need to adjust your training then, 4-6 weeks max for a single tactic.

[Hdefte]

Thanks a lot for the responses. I've returned this evening after a good day of work away from the game, think i needed that after a very frustrating sunday 

I have ended up with this after reading the responses and started out with a few tweaks when i opened up the game:

The team are creating a lot more chances. I think I have been quite unlucky conceding a few long shot goals in the last 10 minutes of the game for a draw or defeat.

I have been playing with a HB on the dm position, but have changed that now to hopefully counter the fact that the opposition have been getting some good shots in from outside the box.

The best par is that Havertz have been performing way better in the system, which im glad to see because its needed progress, since I started out building the tactic around him.

Again thanks for the help and the inputs.

[Hdefte]

19 minutes ago, extremeskins04 said:

I have my tactic with Man Utd setup like this.  It works really well.  It's a 4-1-4-1 with craft Defensive Midfielder.    I have Overlap on both sides, slightly shorter passes while still passing into space, but honestly you don't need to.  I could probably still not pass into space and be fine.

I'm playing Wider offensively stretching out the defense, higher tempo with low crosses to create more chances.

Defensively I have decent Full Backs that can 1 on 1 alot of wingers so I can play extremely narrow in the back and basically be a pinball machine to their shooting.  I also don't need "Play out the back" instructions cause it's done automatically with BPD's.   I don't normally do extremely tight marking just in case one of my players gets beat by speed demon forwards.  I still do Get Stuck In.  Sure I get a few more yellow cards, but it's worth the price you pay.

It's worked well for me.  I beat Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal and only lost two games this year so far.  About 30 games in my first season.

 

Glad its working for you, I dont believe that my central defenders and dms are strong enough to handle that many defensive duties, only 3 players. But will save this SS and maybe try it out in the future when I develop the team more or is starting a new save.

[Angus Osborne]

52 minutes ago, Pedroig said:

You need to adjust your training then, 4-6 weeks max for a single tactic.

I haven't summoned the courage to mess with training yet. Looks like a step to far for me! I'm a manager in a suit, not a tracksuit

Edited November 25, 2019 by Angus Osborne
addition

[Hdefte]

Another question popped up while i'm at work - what else to do that speculate over what to do in football manager when i get home?!

If im going up against a really good team ie Bayern Munchen or Man City (that i have drawn in ChL) how would you go defensive with this?

The other games I have played i turn all front 3 to defensive and made the AP into a DLP for a more holding role and then hope for counters. Other than that more direct passes and pass into space still, even tough I removed it from the normal tactic.

[Mr_Demus]

On 25/11/2019 at 20:26, Experienced Defender said:

4123 is my favorite system and IMHO it's actually the easiest one to set up a good/decent tactic, simply because it is the best/most balanced formation. 

What would I first change in your tactic? Here is the list:

- remove: pass into space, lower tempo and low crosses in possession (leave them all on the default setting)

- either remove distribution to CBs or keep it but also add FBs (so that the keeper would have as many available options as possible for such type of distribution)

- change the AMR from IFat to Wat (works better with a PF on attack as the lone striker)

- change the DM's role from BWM to some that protects the back-line better and more reliably (instead of pressing around like mad). Options: anchor, HB or standard DM on defend duty

- if you want to use a BWM (on support), then a lot better position for him would be MCL (instead of the BBM). Another good option for this particular (MCL) position is carrilero

- the RB should be slightly less conservative, so that he could better help in attack while still retaining defensive solidity (potential options are WBde, FBsu or IWBsu/de)

Other potential tweaks would depend on the exact style of play you want to implement and/or the overall quality of your players.

Good luck!

I am playing with pretty much what you suggested here, and it works quite well. I have one problem however. I am expected to win my division, so teams will often line up very defensively against me. Often with three CD's, two WB's and two DM's, which is hard to break down. How would you counter that?

I have thought about changing the IW S to a W S to get more width, and to not have the IW running in to two DM's. Would that work?

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

I am playing with pretty much what you suggested here, and it works quite well. I have one problem however. I am expected to win my division, so teams will often line up very defensively against me. Often with three CD's, two WB's and two DM's, which is hard to break down. How would you counter that?

There is no universal recipe that tells you "do this" or "do that", because different situations/types of opposition require different tweaks. That's why it's important to watch your matches carefully so that you can identify where the problem is. 

Sometimes you just need to be patient and let your players find their way into breaking the opponent down. This applies to situations when they play really well and are creating a good number of chances, so it's just a matter of time before you score. 

Sometimes it may be enough to just drop the LOE a bit to encourage the opposition to try and attack you and then hit them quickly on the break. Of course, this will not work every time, because some opponents are so defensive that they will refrain from attacking you no matter what you do to encourage them.

Other potential strategies include:

- playing wider to try and stretch them in order to create more space in the middle for your deep runners

- add another deep runner (or a couple of them) to simply outnumber them in the final third

- increase the mentality to encourage more players to get forward and take more risk in general (it may require tweaking/toning down a couple of other instructions or roles/duties)

- activate the "Be more expressive" TI to allow your players more freedom of movement and creativity (if you don't use the instruction already)

And so on...

P.S: do not make changes/tweaks randomly or frantically. Keep your cool.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Experienced Defender

[Mr_Demus]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

There is no universal recipe that tells you "do this" or "do that", because different situations/types of opposition require different tweaks. That's why it's important to watch your matches carefully so that you can identify where the problem is. 

Sometimes you just need to be patient and let your players find their way into breaking the opponent down. This applies to situations when they play really well and are creating a good number of chances, so it's just a matter of time before you score. 

Sometimes it may be enough to just drop the LOE a bit to encourage the opposition to try and attack you and then hit them quickly on the break. Of course, this will not work every time, because some opponents are so defensive that they will refrain from attacking you no matter what you do to encourage them.

Other potential strategies include:

- playing wider to try and stretch them in order to create more space in the middle for your deep runners

- add another deep runner (or a couple of them) to simply outnumber them in the final third

- increase the mentality to encourage more players to get forward and take more risk in general (it may require tweaking/toning down a couple of other instructions or roles/duties)

- activate the "Be more expressive" TI to allow your players more freedom of movement and creativity (if you don't use the instruction already)

And so on...

P.S: do not make changes/tweaks randomly or frantically. Keep your cool.

I am trying not to be drastic. I am simply asking, because I have drawn half of my games against bad teams, because I wasn't able to open up their 8 man defence. I know there's no universal recipe, but I am just hoping to learn.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer. Not just me, but a lot of people on here. I usually read your advice with great interest.

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

I am trying not to be drastic. I am simply asking, because I have drawn half of my games against bad teams, because I wasn't able to open up their 8 man defence. I know there's no universal recipe, but I am just hoping to learn.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer. Not just me, but a lot of people on here. I usually read your advice with great interest.

Thank you mate. However, don't think that I always manage to break down those ultra-defensive teams. Sometimes whatever I try, it fails. Just like in real life - sometimes it's simply not your day