How would you recreate Allegri's 4-4-2 (4-2-3-1) Juventus?

[FMWolf]

This is the setup I'm currently working with. Any ideas or suggestion are welcome!

 

PI's employed are:

 

- GK: Distribute to centers backs;

- RB: Play more risky passes;

- LB: Stay wider;

- DMCR: Shoot less often; Hold position; Play fewer risky passes;

- DMCL: Play more risky passes;

- MR: Get further forward; Cross from byline;

- ML: Tackle harder; Mark tighter; Roam from position; Sit narrower;

- AMC: Get further forward; Roam from position; Move into channels;

- ST: Shoot less often;

 

 

[nampuk]

Finally a topic that I'd follow closely. I've been trying to replicate that myself starting off with the obvious 4-2-3-1 which was not giving me the satisfactory 4-4-2 in the defending phase but at first I saw ideal because of the flexibility that gives to the AML position in order to make it as close as possible compared to real life. Later on, I moved to a flat 4-4-2 option in order to at least get the defending positioning right and tweaking it with PI's to resemble a 4-2-3-1 when attacking which I kinda did but my defence was leaking goals like crazy.

[FMWolf]

I think the problem is that, even though with this formation we can somewhat limit the opposition into long shots only, they can still score a decent amount of them. Even players with not so good long shots attribute (5-10) will score against us. I think this is because they have so much long shots that eventually one has to go in. So, while I'm happy to neutralize the opposition into long shots only, I've have to reduce the amount they take them, and I'm having a lot of trouble doing it with a deep formation. Another problem seems to be my two DM's with who I've tried every "close down less" shout available, but they still move away from their position way too much, leaving gaps for the opposition to explore.

[Margent2]

1 hour ago, FMWolf said:

I think the problem is that, even though with this formation we can somewhat limit the opposition into long shots only, they can still score a decent amount of them. Even players with not so good long shots attribute (5-10) will score against us. I think this is because they have so much long shots that eventually one has to go in. So, while I'm happy to neutralize the opposition into long shots only, I've have to reduce the amount they take them, and I'm having a lot of trouble doing it with a deep formation. Another problem seems to be my two DM's with who I've tried every "close down less" shout available, but they still move away from their position way too much, leaving gaps for the opposition to explore.

how deep do your team play. i guess if you played slightly higher then the gap between your defence and midfield shouldnt be large. i really like the base setup though i think its a good reflection of the way they play. although i would be tempted to amend the role of the AP to AM/SS because i dont really see dybala as a playmaker. just my interpretation though

[FMWolf]

@Margent2 Yeah, moving the D-line up a notch could definitely work. I guess I was focused on defending deep that I didn't even though about that, but in some of the games we've been playing it can be a solution.

As for the Dybala role, I still can't really decide. The main reason I've him as a playmaker is for having him attract the ball more. I've tried the trequarista role but it didn't quite work, so I've been using the AP-A for now. But I will try the AM-A. It has a low set of PI's as a default, so I can change it a bit.

Another position giving me a bit of a headache is the striker. He sometimes seems to be isolated. But I'm afraid a DLF-S just won't replicate Higuain's real life movement. Maybe CF-S?

[Margent2]

yeah i can understand the logic of the deep line i just think in most games theyre not as deep as you might think. 

i think the AM and the PI's for Dybala is the best solution just trying to tweak those to suit. 

regarding striker is Higuain more of a poacher, i dont really see him as being involved too much in build up. i think maybe switching your winger to Attack might help in getting some support and i was going to suggest the LB to Attack also but i dont really think thats a reflection of how sandro plays.

i read an article earlier where Allegri says the team has to be able to switch from 3-5-2 to 4-2-3-1/4-4-2 throughout the game, dont think that can really be replicated on here though without completely changing the tactic

[FMWolf]

Higuain is an hard one yeah. He is more of a finisher rather than a creator, but in FM that is hard to do with a lone forward. I think that (theoretically) the DLF-A should be quite decent at achieving that balance, and maybe with the D-line instructions and the change of the AMC role, things will look better;

As for "Cuadrado", I don't think puting him in an attack duty would help since they are so far apart anyway. And the reason he is on support is to try an have him always avaible for a pass. As I read in an article about them, he tends to stay very wide, almost always unmarked because of that. And what I've found is that with an attack duty, the player would just "give himself" into the marking of the opposition fullback way to easly;

The formations changes do happen yes, but they represent a change of tactics. What he means (and normally happens) is that he takes Cuadrado off and puts Barzagli, making them have 3 at the back. If he starts with the 4-3-2-1/4-4-2 "normal" eleven, they aren't able to just transition into a 3-5-2 without changing players IMO

[ramie]

I have been trying to get this system to work. Been reading https://fmasymmetric.wordpress.com/2017/04/09/the-mad-max-space-commitment-creativity-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-108 some good ideas that you might find helpful

[FMWolf]

@ramie Thanks for sharing that! It definitely helps. But I guess that from my knowledge, that system is not quite Juventus like (while having a lot of similarities of course). Mainly the RB role, which represents Lichtsteiner, but not so much Dani Alves IMO. And the other thing is the Cuadrado role. To me, his biggest asset is giving width to the team, not so much playing that more central winger role. I've even read somewhere that part of Juventu's tactic is having him so wide that the opposition "kinda forgets" him ahah The other big difference would be the Mandzukic role, but I guess that if you instruct him to man mark the opposition RB, it could definitely work. I still haven't tried the changes I said I would. Once I have the time, I'll update it here

 

[ramie]

40 minutes ago, FMWolf said:

@ramie Thanks for sharing that! It definitely helps. But I guess that from my knowledge, that system is not quite Juventus like (while having a lot of similarities of course). Mainly the RB role, which represents Lichtsteiner, but not so much Dani Alves IMO. And the other thing is the Cuadrado role. To me, his biggest asset is giving width to the team, not so much playing that more central winger role. I've even read somewhere that part of Juventu's tactic is having him so wide that the opposition "kinda forgets" him ahah The other big difference would be the Mandzukic role, but I guess that if you instruct him to man mark the opposition RB, it could definitely work. I still haven't tried the changes I said I would. Once I have the time, I'll update it here

2

Yeah I agree with you on the Cuadrado role, he is a wide asset. But do keep us update

[nampuk]

I gave that guy a test of his tactic. Although there is some resemblance to how Juve plays, as you guys mentioned, there are indeed some differences on the right side. Especially in the RB role, yes. Dani Alves is nowhere near a FB, more of a WB or a CWB.

Whereas, for Cuadrado - indeed he is the widest player irl. The guy's logic, however, is that he BECOMES the widest player once he gets the ball, otherwise he stays narrow to fill the gap due to the asymmetry in his tactic.

I'd also argue whether Mandzukic occupies a position that further up and so narrow on the pitch. I see him more as a Wide Target Man.

 

[Vico Vito Pep]

@LPQR had a great post on this on his blog. Think he posted in the forums.

[Vico Vito Pep]

@LPQR had a great post on this on his blog. Think he posted in the forums.

 

https://fmasymmetric.wordpress.com/2017/04/09/the-mad-max-space-commitment-creativity-part-one/

[kingjericho]

Hard setup to recreate in FM.

One point I have posted before is the option that has ceased to exist to select a Defensive Winger in the AML slot. That option existed in FM11 and it would fit what Mandzukic does to perfection.

[MrGol]

On 5/30/2017 at 15:52, FMWolf said:

As for the Dybala role, I still can't really decide. The main reason I've him as a playmaker is for having him attract the ball more. I've tried the trequarista role but it didn't quite work, so I've been using the AP-A for now. But I will try the AM-A. It has a low set of PI's as a default, so I can change it a bit.

Actually, Dybala doesn't play that big of a role in build-up play. Most of Juve's chances are created down the flanks, or by the occasional long ball by Pjanic or Bonucci. In FM terms, Dybala definitely plays as an attacking midfielder rather than a striker, but when he receives possession he mainly focuses on attacking the box. He does get a fair amount of assists, but that's mainly from the last part of the attack. Also, some of those assists are from set pieces. 

I think the wide movement and roaming associated with the trequartista role fit Dybala's movement very well, but I don't think the "ball magnet" effect that the playmaker roles bring is correct here. If you look at WhoScored you'll find that Dybala receives the ball much less than Pjanic and Khedira, but assigning him the AP or TQ role would mean almost every attack goes through him. I think making him a Shadow Striker with the roaming instruction is more realistic to how Dybala plays IRL.

[ramie]

I have been getting some joy playing Dybala as a TQ 

[LPQR]

On 2017-5-31 at 19:47, FMWolf said:

@ramie Thanks for sharing that! It definitely helps. But I guess that from my knowledge, that system is not quite Juventus like (while having a lot of similarities of course). Mainly the RB role, which represents Lichtsteiner, but not so much Dani Alves IMO. And the other thing is the Cuadrado role. To me, his biggest asset is giving width to the team, not so much playing that more central winger role. I've even read somewhere that part of Juventu's tactic is having him so wide that the opposition "kinda forgets" him ahah The other big difference would be the Mandzukic role, but I guess that if you instruct him to man mark the opposition RB, it could definitely work. I still haven't tried the changes I said I would. Once I have the time, I'll update it here

 

The article on my site is merely an interpretation of one tactical scenario Allegri has employed this year. And mind you, this was written when Alves was still injured and the team only started using the system in the league. 

Alves & Licht are different players and the whole dynamic of the system changes according to the coach's instructions and the player particularities. I have watched every match juventus have played this year: Licht is a more conservative fullback but still provides overlapping runs on the right. Alves does the same job, he's just naturally more inclined to make forward runs and is much more technical upfront. 

Another issue that may cause confusion is the fact that Alves was sometimes played in cuadrado's role (against Monaco or Barcelona) and sometimes as FB (the lichtsteiner role). The fact that allegri's formations often switch between 3-5-2, 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 in-game make it very hard to generally define each player's role. The roles and overall system change during the match, according to the coach's instructions.

Cuadrado alternates wide runs with narrow midfield presence, just as much as Dybala alternates runs from deep with roaming in the halfspaces to maintain possession. All these movements are made differently in different scenarios where one would be more beneficial than the other and as general manoeuvres to create space in the opposition half.

On 2017-6-1 at 15:31, nampuk said:

I gave that guy a test of his tactic. Although there is some resemblance to how Juve plays, as you guys mentioned, there are indeed some differences on the right side. Especially in the RB role, yes. Dani Alves is nowhere near a FB, more of a WB or a CWB.

Whereas, for Cuadrado - indeed he is the widest player irl. The guy's logic, however, is that he BECOMES the widest player once he gets the ball, otherwise he stays narrow to fill the gap due to the asymmetry in his tactic.

I'd also argue whether Mandzukic occupies a position that further up and so narrow on the pitch. I see him more as a Wide Target Man.

 

see above for the dani alves point

mandzukic's role is pretty much impossible to recreate 100 percent accurately in FM. he's no WM and if he is a WTM, the role in FM doesn't perform anywhere near his style. His one big attribute in this system? work-rate. The one role that demands that above anything else? the defensive forward. It's just insane how much space he covers and the duties he has: covering the whole left flank, inside runs, holding up the ball, arriving late in the box, challenging aerially and providing the occasional pivot service and so on.

The trouble isn't the role, however, it's how it interacts with the overall system. So you can probably get similar performances to Mandzu's if you use a system that facilitates them. 

Hope this is helpful