Dominate the league but struggle against the relegation zone

[Enos]

I've only restarted playing FM after a 10+ year hiatus so the game is much more complicated than I remember. I do love it however.

Anyhow, I'm in the 2nd year managing Burton and I've built a pretty attacking oriented team playing a 4-3-2-1. The two inside forwards and my lone striker are racking up goals and I'm having a blast. I'm really struggling however to break down the pack-it-in defenses of the relegation zone.

I normally play attacking, fluid with just a few other instructions (high defensive line, short passing, high tempo, play out of defense, and float crosses).

I have the IFs and striker on attacking. Three center mids on (2-on-support 1-BWM on defend). My left fullback is on support, but I l keep my right full back on defense as he's not all that skillful. Centerbacks and Sweeperkeeper on defend.

If I can get an early goal, I usually stomp the relegation squads, but if I don't, I usually concede a counter-attack or two and find myself losing by 2 goals at home. I'd love some advice as I've tried tweaking my instructions a bit. The only one that has met with any success is to move my right fullback to support and encourage both fullbacks to make overlapping runs. I also slowed down the tempo to normal as I felt I didn't need to push the pace as much since the other side might perceive a normal pace as fast.

Any other ideas would be welcome. I assume there would be a thread on this, but I could not find one.

[sjewitt]

i also struggle if the opp go crazy defensive. while if i try to do the same to hold a lead i'll almost always concede a late goal.

[Ghents]

Try lowering the tempo and going control or standard.

They're likely playing you really deep and sitting to hit the counter. With you being attacking mentality you're going to be opened up to the counter.

[Enos]

Try lowering the tempo and going control or standard.

They're likely playing you really deep and sitting to hit the counter. With you being attacking mentality you're going to be opened up to the counter.

You are absolutely right that they're sitting deep. I switched to control and normal tempo in my next game versus a relegation zone team. I still only managed a 0-0 draw. I defeated 1st place Sheffield on the road the week before to take over the top spot. Sure does suck to draw at home to a relegation squad. The very next week I beat Premier League Sunderland 2-1 to advance to the 4th road of the FA Cup (Burton are still 1st Division in my game).

[HUNT3R]

How are you creating space for your goal scorers, space that isn't there because the opposition is sitting deep, with your current setup?

[johnnyyakuza78]

I've only restarted playing FM after a 10+ year hiatus so the game is much more complicated than I remember. I do love it however.

Anyhow, I'm in the 2nd year managing Burton and I've built a pretty attacking oriented team playing a 4-3-2-1. The two inside forwards and my lone striker are racking up goals and I'm having a blast. I'm really struggling however to break down the pack-it-in defenses of the relegation zone.

I normally play attacking, fluid with just a few other instructions (high defensive line, short passing, high tempo, play out of defense, and float crosses).

I have the IFs and striker on attacking. Three center mids on (2-on-support 1-BWM on defend). My left fullback is on support, but I l keep my right full back on defense as he's not all that skillful. Centerbacks and Sweeperkeeper on defend.

If I can get an early goal, I usually stomp the relegation squads, but if I don't, I usually concede a counter-attack or two and find myself losing by 2 goals at home. I'd love some advice as I've tried tweaking my instructions a bit. The only one that has met with any success is to move my right fullback to support and encourage both fullbacks to make overlapping runs. I also slowed down the tempo to normal as I felt I didn't need to push the pace as much since the other side might perceive a normal pace as fast.

Any other ideas would be welcome. I assume there would be a thread on this, but I could not find one.

What I would say is against the smaller sides you need to find ways to make space, because they won't give you any.

Your problem is probably caused by your IFs both rushing into the centre, and your fullbacks not creating enough width. So the opposition can just sit deep and narrow and it will give you very little space to work in. If I were you I'd look at using your fullbacks to create width, or make one of the IFs a winger. I'd also lower tempo and switch to mixed passing to add some variety.

It could also be about your players however, they might not have the skills to be good at unlocking defences.

[summatsupeer]

Depending on what I see and my starting tactical plan I will do one of, or a combination of:

1) Lower mentality. Players won't look to play forward as much and will take a little longer to make a decision, allowing us to work the ball around instead of rushing into the brick wall.

2) Increase Width. Stretch the field laterally, good in combination with point 1 to make use of all of the field.

3) Increase the creativity of the team. I look to use more creative players instead of pacey ones (if they lack flair/vision etc). I might switch a DM to a DLP (still want some defensive ability to stop counters) if that's where there is a lot of space, giving him time to pick them apart unless they press him and leave space.

4) Add presence to the area. They might pack the area full of defenders but I still need a presence to take advantage of any space I can create. I don't want to cause congestion myself but i'm just playing into the defenses plan if I keep my players deep and wide, make those defenders/midfielders work. Like most things in FM, balance is key.

5) Change Team Shape. Another way to tweak things, making more depth and space by making things more structured, I can add the creative freedom back through the TI, depends on the team and number of playmakers.

[Enos]

These are great suggestions. Thanks! (@HUNT3R & @Johnny) The only previous space I was creating was via my striker pulling into midfield (hopefully taking a CB with him) that allowed the IFs to take the space behind him. I hadn't really considered how much additional space I could create by having the outside backs push up higher. That forces some of the densely packed defense to spread outside to cover the backs. One thing I will say about my AML is that while I play him as a IF, he still drifts out wide a lot and gives me a lot of both roles. He is my goal and assist leader and probably my most technically proficient player.

(@summatsupeer) I like these suggestions and had used them only partially before. My only question becomes, 'when do I make these changes'? Should I start at the beginning of the match? or is it OK to make the changes mid-game? I really worry about the counter attack. When I have a lead late in a game, I often change my BBM to defend, but leave everything else the same instead of creating a new tactic.

Thanks all for the suggestions. Even the questions get me thinking a little better. My Burton squad lost another game 1-0 to mid-table team packing it in prior to reading these updates so I'm down to 3rd place, but I hope this helps me out. I'm only halfway through the season and I think the news on my squad is getting out.

[HUNT3R]

These are great suggestions. Thanks! (@HUNT3R & @Johnny) The only previous space I was creating was via my striker pulling into midfield (hopefully taking a CB with him) that allowed the IFs to take the space behind him. I hadn't really considered how much additional space I could create by having the outside backs push up higher. That forces some of the densely packed defense to spread outside to cover the backs. One thing I will say about my AML is that while I play him as a IF, he still drifts out wide a lot and gives me a lot of both roles. He is my goal and assist leader and probably my most technically proficient player.

Your striker has an Attack duty, so he definitely won't be dropping into midfield though.

Fortunately, Cleon has written something about getting your scorers into space: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/423246-What-Makes-A-Goalscorer-!

[summatsupeer]

(@summatsupeer) I like these suggestions and had used them only partially before. My only question becomes, 'when do I make these changes'? Should I start at the beginning of the match? or is it OK to make the changes mid-game? I really worry about the counter attack. When I have a lead late in a game, I often change my BBM to defend, but leave everything else the same instead of creating a new tactic.

Watch the match on Comprehensive or Full for the first 10-15 minutes to see how things look.

If I have confidence in my tactic and players (balanced with the right type of players) I will start normally and then adjust if needed and not just for the sake of it. Before changing I have to see signs that we are being too forward minded before we have created space, players going for the miracle pass too often instead of taking a easier option that would spread play and hopefully make space for a higher % chance.

Do you worry about a counter attack because of something you've seen? If so you probably need to consider a permanent change to your tactic such as dropping your BWM to DM? Maybe you need CB's more capable of defending the space in front and behind them (mobility), as I assume your not playing a defensive type of tactic with a 4321.

[Enos]

Your striker has an Attack duty, so he definitely won't be dropping into midfield though.

Fortunately, Cleon has written something about getting your scorers into space: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/423246-What-Makes-A-Goalscorer-!

Egads. He still seems to drop back a good bit for me as it is, but you're saying the attacking instructions will tend to over-ride his listed position of withdrawn striker? I'm scoring loads of goals with my IFs and Striker as is. Hmmmm.

Watch the match on Comprehensive or Full for the first 10-15 minutes to see how things look.

If I have confidence in my tactic and players (balanced with the right type of players) I will start normally and then adjust if needed and not just for the sake of it. Before changing I have to see signs that we are being too forward minded before we have created space, players going for the miracle pass too often instead of taking a easier option that would spread play and hopefully make space for a higher % chance.

Do you worry about a counter attack because of something you've seen? If so you probably need to consider a permanent change to your tactic such as dropping your BWM to DM? Maybe you need CB's more capable of defending the space in front and behind them (mobility), as I assume your not playing a defensive type of tactic with a 4321.

Will do on the comprehensive. I feel pretty confident in my main tactic so I would rather adjust mid-match. This seems like a good way to do it.

Here is my concern on the counter-attacks. First, I often see one of my midfielders over pursue when closing down the ball and that leaves space behind them. I generally see the other two CMs move in and recover, but they do leave space behind them. I had considered taking my BWM-D and switching him to a role that is less focused on closing down. The other two central midfielders do not have closing down instructions (I believe). One is a CM and the other is BBM. Both on support. The other counter attack issue may just be the slowness of my center backs. Often times they are marking an attacker (usually a striker) pretty closely and a long ball over the top will have them react slowly enough that a clear shot on goal is the result. Since I'm in the 1st division it's not as much of an issue since the first touch of the striker is so poor that it allows enough time for the defense to recover and force a poor shot. I have given up a fair number of goals this way. The anticipation and acceleration of my CBs is pretty high for the league (11-13) so I'm not sure what it is they're lacking.

[HUNT3R]

Egads. He still seems to drop back a good bit for me as it is, but you're saying the attacking instructions will tend to over-ride his listed position of withdrawn striker? I'm scoring loads of goals with my IFs and Striker as is. Hmmmm.

Unless he has a PPM that gets him to drop deep, he won't be doing it much with an Attack duty. It's not his job then. He'll start deeper if he's a DLF/A and he'll roam a bit if he's a CF/A, but overall, it's not his job to drop.