Help me with 4-1-4-1 Formation

[hicuty]

I am trying to play with 4-1-4-1 formation but i dont know where to start. What this formation can play best? Possesion or counters or fast attacking football? I try it with Southampton without success.

I use no TI. I choose run at defense rarely to see if it will make any difference but it doesnt do much.

First of all, i want my players to pass easily with themselves and have many options. I dont want them to rush play or hoof the ball. For that reason i choose counter mentality and spread roles/duties accordingly as i thought appropriate.

My forward is a defensive forward. I want him to stay close to midfield, hold up the ball and let others get into the play. So i gave him hold up ball and dribble less pi.

My wingers have cut inside and stay norrawer pi as i want them to crowd the box and receive the ball from deep to finish. My right is on attack duty, left one is attack or have "get forward" pi if i make him support.

Midfielders pairs are; box to box and cm support/playmaker support. I want them to stay just out of box to create chances or support maraduing fullbacks to receive passes.

Dm is just regular dm.

For fullbacks, i gave them attack duty for both or sometimes attack for one, support for other. They have "play wider" and "wider with ball" pis.

I try to put these roles and duties according to Cleon's attacking thread. However, my team is not playing what i want them to play. The quality chances appears too rare. My shots on targets are like 1 on 8. The good pass connections happens but 2-3 times in a match from defence to attack otherwise it is hoofballs or many missplaced passes. I am lost actually i dont know where to start to develop this tactic to a good and consistent one. Any help appreciated.

[Fosse]

I am trying to play with 4-1-4-1 formation but i dont know where to start. What this formation can play best? Possesion or counters or fast attacking football? I try it with Southampton without success.

I use no TI. I choose run at defense rarely to see if it will make any difference but it doesnt do much.

First of all, i want my players to pass easily with themselves and have many options. I dont want them to rush play or hoof the ball. For that reason i choose counter mentality and spread roles/duties accordingly as i thought appropriate.

My forward is a defensive forward. I want him to stay close to midfield, hold up the ball and let others get into the play. So i gave him hold up ball and dribble less pi.

My wingers have cut inside and stay norrawer pi as i want them to crowd the box and receive the ball from deep to finish. My right is on attack duty, left one is attack or have "get forward" pi if i make him support.

Midfielders pairs are; box to box and cm support/playmaker support. I want them to stay just out of box to create chances or support maraduing fullbacks to receive passes.

Dm is just regular dm.

For fullbacks, i gave them attack duty for both or sometimes attack for one, support for other. They have "play wider" and "wider with ball" pis.

I try to put these roles and duties according to Cleon's attacking thread. However, my team is not playing what i want them to play. The quality chances appears too rare. My shots on targets are like 1 on 8. The good pass connections happens but 2-3 times in a match from defence to attack otherwise it is hoofballs or many missplaced passes. I am lost actually i dont know where to start to develop this tactic to a good and consistent one. Any help appreciated.

My set up is quite similar to yours, I have my BBM with the the get further forward PI to get him playing closer to your striker, your wide players will get in support of him but they're starting from wide positions, a central runner will help your attacking play.

[hicuty]

@Fosse unfortunately system doesnt work for me. In theory i think it is a good setup but i dont get good results.

[ozilthegunner]

The counter mentality will tend to encourage hoofing it out of defense. If you still want to use that mentality to limit commitment to counterattacks, hold a deeper defensive line, and play shorter in attack (all of which the counter mentality does more than standard+) then you need to compensate for the defensive issue with TIs or PIs. Play out of defense, commanding your keeper and CBs to pass shorter and fewer risky passes. Things like that

[bowieinspace]

First thought is that I sense an inconsistency in what you want to achieve.

In your first post you talk about wanting the team to: "pass easily with themselves and have many options. I dont want them to rush play or hoof the ball", suggesting a possession orientated approach, which is reasonably cautious. However later on you talk about setting up roles based on Cleon's attacking thread, which is based around attacking mentalities with numerous players in the opposition half in a fairly aggressive style. But then added to that, the team is set to a counter mentality in a formation that sits the team in a deep defensive block with the entire of the team inside their own half when defending.

If you want to go for a more patient, probing approach, perhaps Cleon's possession thread would be a better read than the attacking one? The attacking thread is a great read, but is written about a very different style of play. With your current set up, players will support each other but it's hard to see which players are going to stretch the opposition back line and make runs behind. The cautious passing style in the final 3rd created by the counter mentality, combined with no central attacking threat may mean the team lack good quality passing options. With this in mind, the possession thread may be good reading as it discusses how to mitigate this issue in a patient, possession system.

[hicuty]

First thought is that I sense an inconsistency in what you want to achieve.

In your first post you talk about wanting the team to: "pass easily with themselves and have many options. I dont want them to rush play or hoof the ball", suggesting a possession orientated approach, which is reasonably cautious. However later on you talk about setting up roles based on Cleon's attacking thread, which is based around attacking mentalities with numerous players in the opposition half in a fairly aggressive style. But then added to that, the team is set to a counter mentality in a formation that sits the team in a deep defensive block with the entire of the team inside their own half when defending.

If you want to go for a more patient, probing approach, perhaps Cleon's possession thread would be a better read than the attacking one? The attacking thread is a great read, but is written about a very different style of play. With your current set up, players will support each other but it's hard to see which players are going to stretch the opposition back line and make runs behind. The cautious passing style in the final 3rd created by the counter mentality, combined with no central attacking threat may mean the team lack good quality passing options. With this in mind, the possession thread may be good reading as it discusses how to mitigate this issue in a patient, possession system.

In fact i choose counter strategy because it gives lower tempo, narrow width and shorter passing at final third. I thought these could give team some quality passing options. And also I am managing Southampton, I thought counter strategy makes me more solid in defense when playing with bigger sides. I am no expert about roles/duties, actually Cleon's attacking thread made some sense to me about them, so i come up with a tactics but it obviously failed. I wanted quality passing/chances, not playing a possesion game for the sake of possesion. Just trying to come up with roles/duties which they can pass nicely and create good chances. I can live with less then %50 possesion.

I have some questions about 4-1-4-1;

In terms of duties, should wingers play like inside forwards? Because lack of man in final third make classic wingers not so good in 4-1-4-1?

You said i must stretch the backline of opposition. Can that be done with an attack duty forward with move into channels pi? So that an attacking midfielder make a run in that space?

I want to improve my 4-1-4-1 tactics and want to understand how 4-1-4-1 works.

[RTHerringbone]

You ask questions in a way that suggests you think that the 4-1-4-1 can only be set up one way. Like any formation, it can vary from one system to another.

[bowieinspace]

In fact i choose counter strategy because it gives lower tempo, narrow width and shorter passing at final third. I thought these could give team some quality passing options. And also I am managing Southampton, I thought counter strategy makes me more solid in defense when playing with bigger sides. I am no expert about roles/duties, actually Cleon's attacking thread made some sense to me about them, so i come up with a tactics but it obviously failed. I wanted quality passing/chances, not playing a possesion game for the sake of possesion. Just trying to come up with roles/duties which they can pass nicely and create good chances. I can live with less then %50 possesion.

I have some questions about 4-1-4-1;

In terms of duties, should wingers play like inside forwards? Because lack of man in final third make classic wingers not so good in 4-1-4-1?

You said i must stretch the backline of opposition. Can that be done with an attack duty forward with move into channels pi? So that an attacking midfielder make a run in that space?

I want to improve my 4-1-4-1 tactics and want to understand how 4-1-4-1 works.

There's a few ways you could do it, but the key thing to remember is that you need players who are going to get into the box and score goals, and you need multiple ways of doing this, otherwise it becomes very predictable. With no players attacking through the central area, and a counter mentality which has players in the final third being patient and slow, taking few risks, there isn't anyone who is really going to force two centre backs out of position. To have a system which creates multiple passing options, you need players close to each other and supporting each other as you say, but you need some of those players to be making that movement beyond the defenders - otherwise the players will just have to pass in front of the defence with little opportunity to go through it.