TT&F IV: New Strategies and Theories for '07

[crazy gra]

More Observations on Wet Matches

Just played another game where the pitch was rather soggy i.e. a darker shade of green, so thought I'd play one half normally and the other with some 'wet' tweaks.

For the first half I tweaked the team passing from 6 to 9 and then my passing ranges throughout the team were 6-12. I also pushed the width up to 9 to compliment the more direct passing but left tempo at 6. The other thing I did was to lower the d-line from 16 to 13, which I did for two reasons:

1. Balls over the top won't run through to my keeper as easily on a wet surface, which gives an opposition ST a better chance of reaching the ball first.

2. Like width, players will benefit from being further away from each other for more direct passing. To compliment this two-dimensionally, the d-line should be further back so that players are further away from teammates infront of and behind them as well as just alongside.

I was winning 1-0 at half time but had dominated and had no problems defensively. For the second half, I played how I normally do at home. I still played well, but shots, SOTs and possession weren't as high as in the first half. I won 3-2 and I defintely feel the changes that I applied for the first half were more effective.

In summary: The main point I want to say about this is the change of d-line. I'd already applied it in previous 'wet' games, but only for the 1st reason detailed above. The 2nd reason certainly seems logical to me, as it's the same reasoning for changing the width when altering passing.

This doesn't have to just be applied to wet matches, however, as I feel the d-line can be set, not only according to the median individual mentalities, but also partly mirroring the team passing.

[Guest]

I personally think that these tactics work well for lower league but once you get the echelons of the higher league the defensive tactics do not work as well.

The home seem ok but i need to do more testing with my arsenal side.

I have tweeked the settings of my players to reflect their ability eg if a player has great passing ability then ill increas his TB to ofter. If im using a playmaker eg Cesc i wont have him running forward as much. The same with Henry RWB often, With Ade as target i set play to feet and hold up ball or to head and not hold it up.

A lot of tweeking i think is necessary to make thse tactics work for the higher leagues. This will come in time.

As i said earlier i have a very successful 442 based on the ROT of last years attacking tactic so maybe a revised approach is needed using this philosophy.

I will post back soon to see if i can make the home and away dominate for the higher leagues. Id be interested to see anyones instructions for the higher leagues and their successes.

[Ans Gulrik]

Well done wwfan! I thoroughly enjoyed your last thread and this will be interesting too I'm sure of it.

I very much belong among the assymetrical tactic builders, and I have to agree that this engine is the hardest for my way of thinking, and therefore also the best SI has made to date.

Two things:

1. You do not adresse the realtion between Team Instructions and Individual Instructions. The FM06 answer was that Individual Instructions overrule Team Instructions except from extreme settings. (Maybe - I was never entirely sure - that was not even entirely true for FM06, but the TI impact was just so insignificant that it only showed with extreme settings).

But certainly - in FM07 - TI and II work in correspondence. Otherwise the Killer tactic has already been invented, cause several users have already mopped the floor with tactic's where all they changed were the TI.

2. Has the new frame-work been tested with teams in the top league, that has to challenge for the top spots every season? The reason I ask is, that this is the part of the game I still struggle with. Winning with poor teams is not that hard (it is not easy either, but better players / more defensive opponents to me is pretty much like for like), cause the AI will underestimate your game plan, and will push on for goals as long as it feel (over)confident probably because of the shot on/off target.

In LLM you usually get promoted, and next season is the same scenario. When there is no promotion it does not work like that: Next season you are the top team and the AI will be anything but naive.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

Id be interested to see anyones instructions for the higher leagues and their successes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've not played many games with these new frameworks in place, but I feel they are certainly better than the tactics I created (which some people in my tactic thread have said are brilliant anyway).

If you want any screenshots then just let me know here.

[Äktsjon Männ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

As man-marking has finally been fixed (7.0.1), I prefer to man mark the opposition with the defence </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried tight man marking for the first time after implementing your frameworks into my tactics but it was a disaster. I kept leaking daft goals, opposition strikers clean trough on goal while 3 of my defenders were marking another player 4 yards away etc. Switched back to zonal and everything is sound. Was the man marking supposedly fixed in the final build on 7.0.1 only? Because I'm still on the first build (the one with the contracts bug).

Anyway, these frameworks seem to work a treat, however I only use the home version and switch to the away tactic only when defending a lead. Inviting the opposition on me from the start never works for me, I concede early and never get back into it, whereas if I concede early with an attacking tactic there's always a chance I'll strike back. Of course there's also a chance they'll score more and I get thumped but that's the risk I'm willing to take.

[Seagulls Forever]

Well I have to say it's going the way of the previous tactic. Ie a good start followed by a catastrophic collapse with seemingly no way to arrest the decline. No action or inaction on my part or choice of tactic reverses the constant stream of loss after loss. I'm guessing it's down to re-ranking but it's not happening as you describe it as I'm not favourite for these matches. Morale has collapsed and to be honest seems to play FAR too important a role in things in this game, which would be less of a problem if one had the tools to deal with it. This game really isn't very good is it.

[paz]

I have the same problem as Aktsjon - is it the final build that is required or something

[Seagulls Forever]

These are the goals I have conceded so far.. going for a high-tempo wide direct 442 with my hereford side.

Home

left-back drawn forwards and beaten, cb beaten to ball

no-one marking striker

striker beat defender in 50-50 ball

poor clearance from full-back accross the box to opp striker

away

direct free kick

keeper flapped at a cross

right back cocked up interception, miscontrolled through to other team's striker

free kick deflected

goalmouth scramble

striker skins centre-back and scores

long clearance to centre back pulled out wide, pass-back to keeper with striker lurking

poor clearance to oppo player, fed long through-ball to striker

[Seagulls Forever]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paz:

I have the same problem as Aktsjon - is it the final build that is required or something </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the final build but if you see my previous post, stupid defender mistakes are still a problem. I'm using man marking.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

Id be interested to see anyones instructions for the higher leagues and their successes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've not played many games with these new frameworks in place, but I feel they are certainly better than the tactics I created (which some people in my tactic thread have said are brilliant anyway).

If you want any screenshots then just let me know here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Screenshots of how you play would be good. I just still feel that these tactics atm are not suited for the high pace and attacking football of the premiership. You are asked to take the right to win but there is just something not right with these tactics atm imo. I'll persist with them and see what happens.

Just would like to know how they have been adapted for the expectancy of wining in the higher league.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

Id be interested to see anyones instructions for the higher leagues and their successes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've not played many games with these new frameworks in place, but I feel they are certainly better than the tactics I created (which some people in my tactic thread have said are brilliant anyway).

If you want any screenshots then just let me know here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Screenshots of how you play would be good. I just still feel that these tactics atm are not suited for the high pace and attacking football of the premiership. You are asked to take the right to win but there is just something not right with these tactics atm imo. I'll persist with them and see what happens.

Just would like to know how they have been adapted for the expectancy of wining in the higher league. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok after losing against wigan i am giving up on these tactics until they are proven at a higher level. They are causing my 11pt lead at the top to decrease to 3 i cant risk this and therefore i am goin gback to my 442 that has worked so well and is fully tested. (based on ROT 06).

Im Sorry WWfan but too risky atm. I may start using and tweeking them in the new season, or you could use mine.

[Seagulls Forever]

Nope, fraid I'm going to have to ditch this before it gets me relegated, I'm shipping goals left right and centre.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

Id be interested to see anyones instructions for the higher leagues and their successes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've not played many games with these new frameworks in place, but I feel they are certainly better than the tactics I created (which some people in my tactic thread have said are brilliant anyway).

If you want any screenshots then just let me know here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Screenshots of how you play would be good. I just still feel that these tactics atm are not suited for the high pace and attacking football of the premiership. You are asked to take the right to win but there is just something not right with these tactics atm imo. I'll persist with them and see what happens.

Just would like to know how they have been adapted for the expectancy of wining in the higher league. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, i'll get onto doing some. I've just played one game in particular that is suited brilliantly to this. you'll see .....

[paz]

I haven't tried these theories in the lower leagues, but it does seem that in the Premiership and MLS where I also tried it that the defenders are error prone and get skinned too easily (possibly due to the man marking against more skillful opposition). Also the defensive away tactic rarely works for me, it seems to invite too much pressure and my team ends up letting the opposition recycle their attacks with hopeless punts up field. Against the better sides in the league I've been ripped apart with this defensive framework even with the low mentalities and seemingly good defensive structure, the quality of opposition mean they can pick passes through the back line with ease.

[Seagulls Forever]

Man marking has to go I'm afraid. Zonal seems a lot better. It still doesn't work on FM2007 then.

[AndyPipkin]

@ Arsenal71: Since employing these tactics with Newcastle (2009/2010) I am on a marathon unbeaten streak (think I've reached 15 games with this tactic in all competitions now - PL/CL/CC) and I am absolutely dominating teams at home in terms of posession/shots/pass accuracy (even the likes of Man Utd and Liverpool). While away from home I sometimes have less posession, but always more shots on goal and a massively superior tackle/pass percentage.

Not only that, the football my team seem to be playing is electric when I compare it to the previous three seasons. My fullbacks are scoring from open play, my wingers are having a huge influence on games and my attacking midfielders are performing better than ever. The biggest difference, though, has come with using Zigic/Carew in the target man role that wwfan suggests - both are scoring/assisting loads and getting plenty of MOM awards.

I was doing pretty brilliantly beforehand anyway, but I've also had a run of 6 clean sheets (against some good teams) and it just seems to be such an exciting way of playing.

Here are the results of the 15 games:

And here are my 5 tactics:

<a href="http://www.fmdatahost.com/uploads/c25c53e74b231e6124375dda3e47f04c4-4-2-Newcastle-(H)-(Newcastle,-Dec-2009).tac">Home</a>

href="http://www.fmdatahost.com/uploads/7ece051a20a4f1481eed7018a780e42b4-4-2-Newcastle-(A)-UltAtt-(Newcastle,-Dec-2009).tac">Away - Ultra Attacking</a>

href="http://www.fmdatahost.com/uploads/14da67e43b2ed49735d9a12cb63320914-4-2-Newcastle-(A)-Att-(Newcastle,-Dec-2009).tac">Away - Attacking</a>

href="http://www.fmdatahost.com/uploads/6c5729cf7e7d618c652644a87dccd5394-4-2-Newcastle-(A)-Def-(Newcastle,-Dec-2009).tac">Away - Defensive</a>

href="http://www.fmdatahost.com/uploads/1bf6e6dccde75491ade739da890da3cb4-4-2-Newcastle-(A)-UltDef-(Newcastle,-Dec-2009).tac">Away - Ultra Defensive</a>

Here are a few descriptions of my preferred players:

GK - Shay Given / Tim Krul - nothing special to note.

RB - Eduardo Ratinho / Giles Barnes - both loaded with pace, with excellent crossing/dribbling/tackling/marking/heading/positioning/jumping, too.

LB - Fabio Aurelio / Gareth Bale - both are quick, deadly from set-plays and have good-excellent stats in the fields mentioned for RB.

RCB - Marco Andreolli / Steven Taylor - tackling/marking/heading/positioning/jumping/concentration/bravery/pace/acceleration all 15+.

LCB - Vedran Corluka / Curtis Davies - same as RCB.

RM - Rodrigo Palacio / Andrea Gasbarroni - typical winger stats are extremely high, 20/20 for pace/accel on both.

LM - Charles N'Zogbia / Mauro Esposito - same as RM, but slower.

DM - Papa Bouba Diop / Alou Diarra - excellent in the air, my two favourite DM's on the game due to their positioning/heading/jumping/tackling/marking, etc.

AM - Federico Insua / Belozoglu Emre - small midfield playmakers with good pace and high stats for creativity/set plays/decisions, etc. Both angry little wasps.

ST - Nikola Zigic / John Carew - classic target men, excellent jump/heading and decent acc/pace (12/15 for Zigic & 15/15 for Carew.) Also high finishing/composure.

FC - Obafemi Martins / Michael Owen - speed, finishing, composure, just the usual for small strikers.

Just thought I would post that to show what type of players I use within the tactics that I've posted. I always like to use big CB's/DM's and have fullbacks who are both good attacking and defensively. Cannot stand having FB's who can't do both.

Wingers should ideally be electric with high finishing stats and almost all of my team is 15/15+ for teamwork/workrate. I always use teamwork/workrate within my parameters for every single position that I spend money on.

Dusan Basta and Juan are both merely used as emergency players, although both are excellent, especially Basta due to the massive number of positions he covers. (Had Mark Wilson previously.)

Basically, your Arsenal team is probably better than my Newcastle team, so these tactics should be even more effective for you! I wish I had an Henry or a Fabregas...

[AndyPipkin]

Didn't realise HTML doesn't work...

Tactics:

Home

Away - Ultra Attacking Away - Attacking Away - Defensive Away - Ultra Defensive

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AndyPipkin:

Didn't realise HTML doesn't work...

Tactics:

Home

Away - Ultra Attacking Away - Attacking Away - Defensive Away - Ultra Defensive </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that at least it proves that they do work at a higher level. I hand seen these amended tactics only the ones that were posted in wwfans other post on TT 07.

I will give these a try but i have been so successful with my variety of tactics that i have just this second uploaded a set. The formations do range and arent just 442 etc.

I will give this a go next season, or for the remainder of this as i have just won prem with 8 games left and i am 19 points in front of chelsea.

[Guest]

Where can i find the originals of these new tactics like the onse listed above?

[crazy gra]

Right, here's what I've done for different games so far:

Home

Home tactic instructions

v Porthsmouth, home

v Watford, home

Away Attacking

Away attacking tactic instructions

v Arsenal, away

v PSV, away

Away v quick tempo teams

Away v quick tempo tactic instructions

v Middlesborough, away

You'll see from some of these that I didn't particularly dominate either in terms of possession or shots/SOTs, but the results are clear for themselves.

[Nathan mufc fan]

Well i've been trying this for a couple games and the form is acceptable really:

Recent form:

I was also 2nd when i 1st started using this. My away form was bad so i thought i would give it a go.

League table:

Crazy gra, i'll have a go with your mentalities, if you don't mind? As your winning and using the players i'm using, it should work for me.

[Nathan mufc fan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathan mufc fan:

Well i've been trying this for a couple games and the form is unacceptable really:

Recent form:

I was also 2nd when i 1st started using this. My away form was bad so i thought i would give it a go.

League table:

Crazy gra, i'll have a go with your mentalities, if you don't mind? As your winning and using the players i'm using, it should work for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[wwfan]

Testing at Higher Levels

I haven't tested at a higher level as yet, but users in another forum in which I post my theories slightly earlier than I do here have built 4-4-2s, 4-4-2 Diamonds and 4-3-3s following the theories and dominated with Arsenal and West Ham. Indeed, the Arsenal 4-3-3 designer posted the following:

....W....D....L....F....A...

....25...5....0...93...19...

as an indicator of how well he was doing. I will try and get permission to upload these tactics to FMDownloads so people can try them out.

Man versus Zonal Marking

I am having a long term discussion with The Next Diaby, the user who posted the variations, about the validity of zonal versus man marking. He has more time to play FM than I do and is working on a Diamond with zonal marking defense, which has good reviews and support. Again, I will try to get permission to upload it so those with man marking problems can give it a try.

Creative Freedom?

The main thing I would alter at top levels is the amount of creative freedom for the front players, which will make it them less predictable and thus less easy to mark out of the game by quality defenders. I only had one player operating on high creative freedom in my tactics set due to lack of creative personel. However, I am manging internationally now and have increased CF for the wingers with startling results. I have only played two matches so far so won't categorically state it works, but it would certainly be worth fiddling around with.

[Nathan mufc fan]

Originally posted by wwfan:

Testing at Higher Levels

Man versus Zonal Marking

I am having a long term discussion with The Next Diaby, the user who posted the variations, about the validity of zonal versus man marking. He has more time to play FM than I do and is working on a Diamond with zonal marking defense, which has good reviews and support. Again, I will try to get permission to upload it so those with man marking problems can give it a try.

QUOTE]

I think it's the man marking that's the problem. Iv'e been playing with man marking on and doing pretty badly. I've changed to zonal marking, and now the results are picking up.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathan mufc fan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathan mufc fan:

Well i've been trying this for a couple games and the form is unacceptable really:

Recent form:

I was also 2nd when i 1st started using this. My away form was bad so i thought i would give it a go.

League table:

Crazy gra, i'll have a go with your mentalities, if you don't mind? As your winning and using the players i'm using, it should work for me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that's fine, go for it.

Just beat Arsenal 3-2 at home in the league. They came back from 2-0 down to equalise on the hour, thinking they'd get revenge for the League Cup game. It was a wet-ish game but I thought I'd try the normal tactic. After they equalised, I changed to the wet home tactic and won 3-2

Still works

[Ans Gulrik]

wwfan - why is Team Mentality not a part of the frame work? Do you still believe that Individual mentality overrule Team Mentality as in FM06?

I'm certain they are linked somehow. Otherwise I got one tactic that can do almost the same as the results the framework gets with 3 (and lots of work) and I do not belief that I have been so lucky.

I could be a very simple explanation why the framework works for some and not for others...

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

wwfan - why is Team Mentality not a part of the frame work? Do you still believe that Individual mentality overrule Team Mentality as in FM06?

I'm certain they are linked somehow. Otherwise I got one tactic that can do almost the same as the results the framework gets with 3 (and lots of work) and I do not belief that I have been so lucky.

I could be a very simple explanation why the framework works for some and not for others... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having reread the manual after Cleon's post on how they are different, I'm still not convinced whether a) they are, or b) the manual is very badly written and thus makes it seem as if they are, but in fact one still overrides the other. I don't think it is clear either way. Having had experience in trying to teach software engineers how to write, my faith in the manual is always taken with a pinch of salt anyway.

Personally, I'm still sticking with the second definition, as I just ignore Team Mentality and leave it at 10, but I could be wrong. It would need a bit of testing with the frameworks being complimented by varying team mentalities to prove/disprove either theory. In theory, you could do the same as the individual mentalites framework just be using the team mentality slider and leaving all mentalities as default, and just link the theorems to the level of attcking or defensive mentality you have chosen. I don't really have the time to test the hows and whys of how/if team mentality may or may not link with individual mentalities, as I am happy with the system I am using. If anyone else wishes to try and prove it or approach SI for a definitive solution then be my guest.

[Ans Gulrik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

wwfan - why is Team Mentality not a part of the frame work? Do you still believe that Individual mentality overrule Team Mentality as in FM06?

I'm certain they are linked somehow. Otherwise I got one tactic that can do almost the same as the results the framework gets with 3 (and lots of work) and I do not belief that I have been so lucky.

I could be a very simple explanation why the framework works for some and not for others... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having reread the manual after Cleon's post on how they are different, I'm still not convinced whether a) they are, or b) the manual is very badly written and thus makes it seem as if they are, but in fact one still overrides the other. I don't think it is clear either way. Having had experience in trying to teach software engineers how to write, my faith in the manual is always taken with a pinch of salt anyway.

Personally, I'm still sticking with the second definition, as I just ignore Team Mentality and leave it at 10, but I could be wrong. It would need a bit of testing with the frameworks being complimented by varying team mentalities to prove/disprove either theory. In theory, you could do the same as the individual mentalites framework just be using the team mentality slider and leaving all mentalities as default, and just link the theorems to the level of attcking or defensive mentality you have chosen. I don't really have the time to test the hows and whys of how/if team mentality may or may not link with individual mentalities, as I am happy with the system I am using. If anyone else wishes to try and prove it or approach SI for a definitive solution then be my guest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was not asking you to test it - and I do not use the framework myself, cause I'm also quite happy with my own - assymetric - against the code tactic. I enjoy your posts because they bring concepts (language simply) to all the FM-tactic talk.

I was just thinking that maybe people who struggle, should first try and use a team mentality of 10 when using the framework. If that was how it was developed, it might turn out differently if some players just happened to forget to change from for instance 16.

[wwfan]

If team and individual are linked, then absolutely.

[FourThreeThree]

Global metality is how the entire team should play. Preset individual to tune the kind of gaps you want them to produce but global mentality do change the structure of defence or attack. Full-backs go up more often, the team has an attacking stance while it also leave gaps for the opposition like what many attacking formation does. Also I notice my players tend to be less interested in winning back the ball when global mentality is attacking. It would be nice however to get a detailed changes when moving the global mentality sliders.

[Guest]

wwfan, ill play the formations posted on the last page by Andy Pipkin and look to see if they work for my side.

I have uploaded my tactics for people to have a look at, as i said they are based on last years tactics but have been adapted and as i say i have been very very successful with them.

Link to tactics forum.

Id be very interested on people opinion of them and how well they do. If you have time wwfan i would like for you to see how well they do. THey have not been tested at LL level as yet as i have only been arsenal, rangers and now bordeaux. (last two in network game).

[SOSeven]

Wow! I just used the home setup and the difference for Yeading in the South Conference was amazing. I've really been struggling with impotent strikers so far; managing to score two goals in a match has been a rare cause for celebration, and even then one of them would always be down to a penalty or a bit of luck in a set piece. This match: four in the first twenty minutes! First convincing win I've had after about the fifth fixture since buying the game. Poor old Basingstoke must have wondered what hit them. First time I've seen a player with a rating of ten as well.

Thanks wwfan. Looks as if Yeading's mediocrity is about to be turned around.

[mikegilbert9]

Great post wwfan, just one question though,

Why should a target man have forward runs on rarely and maybe not on mixed, because if use a target man, is job is to win you headers for your other players to latch onto and if he wins a header just outside the penalty box for example, and he heads it to the wings and winger beats the defender and then crosses it into the box.

Your target man won't be there to head home because you've told not to get forward. Yet i thought one of the roles of target man who was told to win headers should get forward and get goals from crosses.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arsenal71:

Where can i find the originals of these new tactics like the onse listed above? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/6912045292

Here.

Though you'll get more out of it if you read the original post and construct your own. It's time consuming, but you get to understand how it works better. Means you can adapt it easier if you need to.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mikegilbert9:

Great post wwfan, just one question though,

Why should a target man have forward runs on rarely and maybe not on mixed, because if use a target man, is job is to win you headers for your other players to latch onto and if he wins a header just outside the penalty box for example, and he heads it to the wings and winger beats the defender and then crosses it into the box.

Your target man won't be there to head home because you've told not to get forward. Yet i thought one of the roles of target man who was told to win headers should get forward and get goals from crosses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you mention that as I've been thinking about that. In a home game I played recently, I had lots of crosses from the wingers and full backs played to the TM. On many occasions, even though the opposition d-line wasn't high and i'd pushed forward quite high myself, he wasn't close enough to the goal to score from a header. A lot of the time he wins the header, but it ends up as a comfortable save for the keeper or the header is wide.

So, carrying on from my thinking that passing can be paired with the d-line (as well as width) due to how far away from each other team mates are, I was thinking of changing the FWRs for the STs.

At home, the team will be more compact, so having mixed and often FWRs for the TM and FCa respectively may benefit you. For away games, as the team is more spread out, the rarely/mixed combination is probably more effective.

I've always used a mixed/often combination with my STs' FWRs, but in some games you can see the benefit of the TM dropping back a little.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mikegilbert9:

Great post wwfan, just one question though,

Why should a target man have forward runs on rarely and maybe not on mixed, because if use a target man, is job is to win you headers for your other players to latch onto and if he wins a header just outside the penalty box for example, and he heads it to the wings and winger beats the defender and then crosses it into the box.

Your target man won't be there to head home because you've told not to get forward. Yet i thought one of the roles of target man who was told to win headers should get forward and get goals from crosses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you mention that as I've been thinking about that. In a home game I played recently, I had lots of crosses from the wingers and full backs played to the TM. On many occasions, even though the opposition d-line wasn't high and i'd pushed forward quite high myself, he wasn't close enough to the goal to score from a header. A lot of the time he wins the header, but it ends up as a comfortable save for the keeper or the header is wide.

So, carrying on from my thinking that <STRIKE>passing can be paired with the d-line (as well as width)</STRIKE> passing can be mirrored with the d-line (as well as being paired with width)due to how far away from each other team mates are, I was thinking of changing the FWRs for the STs.

At home, the team will be more compact, so having mixed and often FWRs for the TM and FCa respectively may benefit you. For away games, as the team is more spread out, the rarely/mixed combination is probably more effective.

I've always used a mixed/often combination with my STs' FWRs, but in some games you can see the benefit of the TM dropping back a little. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorted

[mikegilbert9]

cheers for help crazy gra

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

wwfan - why is Team Mentality not a part of the frame work? Do you still believe that Individual mentality overrule Team Mentality as in FM06?

I'm certain they are linked somehow. Otherwise I got one tactic that can do almost the same as the results the framework gets with 3 (and lots of work) and I do not belief that I have been so lucky.

I could be a very simple explanation why the framework works for some and not for others... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having reread the manual after Cleon's post on how they are different, I'm still not convinced whether a) they are, or b) the manual is very badly written and thus makes it seem as if they are, but in fact one still overrides the other. I don't think it is clear either way. Having had experience in trying to teach software engineers how to write, my faith in the manual is always taken with a pinch of salt anyway.

Personally, I'm still sticking with the second definition... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I think your system will work best with a 10 mentality, I think that's mainly because you use such close and such extreme individual mentality instructions.

Team mentality does, definitely, affect individual mentality. When my team play with a defensive team mentality, they get behind the ball and look to get the ball away to safety more than attack. Similarly, on attacking mentality they go for goal. I never change my individual settings. I've tested this (as I originally wasn't convinced that they had an effect either), but I could see a gradual progression as I went up through the slider.

I think this is more of a side point though. I would personally not change the mentality on your frameworks. Because of the extremes, as I say, I think it would be suicide. Besides, everything seems to work fine wihout it.

If it ain't broke...

[Lord Crumb]

WWfan

Great read as always, I have copied your info to Word, since I won't have any net access for about 2 weeks.

Crazy Gra

How would you alter your tactics for a Conference team.

As a guideline if a player has over 12 in an attribute I'll set it to often. If between 8-11 mixed and below rarely. Does this sound right to you?

I'm wondering more about passing and creative freedom, I have a central midfielder with 16 passing and 12 creativity but the rest are much lower. I'm expected to sttruggle in the Conference this year, being newly promoted.

Thanks.

[Ans Gulrik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

wwfan - why is Team Mentality not a part of the frame work? Do you still believe that Individual mentality overrule Team Mentality as in FM06?

I'm certain they are linked somehow. Otherwise I got one tactic that can do almost the same as the results the framework gets with 3 (and lots of work) and I do not belief that I have been so lucky.

I could be a very simple explanation why the framework works for some and not for others... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having reread the manual after Cleon's post on how they are different, I'm still not convinced whether a) they are, or b) the manual is very badly written and thus makes it seem as if they are, but in fact one still overrides the other. I don't think it is clear either way. Having had experience in trying to teach software engineers how to write, my faith in the manual is always taken with a pinch of salt anyway.

Personally, I'm still sticking with the second definition... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I think your system will work best with a 10 mentality, I think that's mainly because you use such close and such extreme individual mentality instructions.

Team mentality does, definitely, affect individual mentality. When my team play with a defensive team mentality, they get behind the ball and look to get the ball away to safety more than attack. Similarly, on attacking mentality they go for goal. I never change my individual settings. I've tested this (as I originally wasn't convinced that they had an effect either), but I could see a gradual progression as I went up through the slider.

I think this is more of a side point though. I would personally not change the mentality on your frameworks. Because of the extremes, as I say, I think it would be suicide. Besides, everything seems to work fine wihout it.

If it ain't broke... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Millie. I did not mean to suggest that wwfan should change his team mentality. I just suggested that Team mentality, team passing and so on, should be part of the framework. I think there is a chance that people who can not get the framework to work, might have different Team Instructions than wwfan.

[Millie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

wwfan - why is Team Mentality not a part of the frame work? Do you still believe that Individual mentality overrule Team Mentality as in FM06?

I'm certain they are linked somehow. Otherwise I got one tactic that can do almost the same as the results the framework gets with 3 (and lots of work) and I do not belief that I have been so lucky.

I could be a very simple explanation why the framework works for some and not for others... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having reread the manual after Cleon's post on how they are different, I'm still not convinced whether a) they are, or b) the manual is very badly written and thus makes it seem as if they are, but in fact one still overrides the other. I don't think it is clear either way. Having had experience in trying to teach software engineers how to write, my faith in the manual is always taken with a pinch of salt anyway.

Personally, I'm still sticking with the second definition... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I think your system will work best with a 10 mentality, I think that's mainly because you use such close and such extreme individual mentality instructions.

Team mentality does, definitely, affect individual mentality. When my team play with a defensive team mentality, they get behind the ball and look to get the ball away to safety more than attack. Similarly, on attacking mentality they go for goal. I never change my individual settings. I've tested this (as I originally wasn't convinced that they had an effect either), but I could see a gradual progression as I went up through the slider.

I think this is more of a side point though. I would personally not change the mentality on your frameworks. Because of the extremes, as I say, I think it would be suicide. Besides, everything seems to work fine wihout it.

If it ain't broke... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Millie. I did not mean to suggest that wwfan should change his team mentality. I just suggested that Team mentality, team passing and so on, should be part of the framework. I think there is a chance that people who can not get the framework to work, might have different Team Instructions than wwfan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I see where you're coming from. I just thought that it needed a little clearing up, was all.

[crazy gra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lord Crumb:

Crazy Gra

How would you alter your tactics for a Conference team.

As a guideline if a player has over 12 in an attribute I'll set it to often. If between 8-11 mixed and below rarely. Does this sound right to you?

I'm wondering more about passing and creative freedom, I have a central midfielder with 16 passing and 12 creativity but the rest are much lower. I'm expected to sttruggle in the Conference this year, being newly promoted.

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, playing as a conference team I probably wouldn't change instructions such as CF. I've not played as a conference team yet, the lowest I played was in League 2, but when speaking to a mate who's played as Hyde in the Conference North he seemed to get more success by playing a more higher tempo/more direct passing type system, although this could be because of Hyde being quite a poor team.

wwfan's frameworks were designed around lower league teams, but I've only slightly altered them anyway so I probably wouldn't change them drastically in LLM.

As for the sliders question, I don't change anything according to different players I have because:

1. I can't be arsed being that specific with tactics.

2. I wouldn't alter instructions by much anyway as I wouldn't play a player in a position if I didn't think he was capable.

As for your central midfielder, then the only thing I'd consider is to make him the playmaker. I just hope for your sake that he's got OK technique, as this is the most important stat (IMO) for an MCa.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by: mikegilbert9

cheers for help crazy gra </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No probs Try changing the FWRs for different types of games i.e. have them as mixed/often in the first half and then rare/mixed in the 2nd half. Let us know how it goes.

[Jimmy Valentino]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mikegilbert9:

Great post wwfan, just one question though,

Why should a target man have forward runs on rarely and maybe not on mixed, because if use a target man, is job is to win you headers for your other players to latch onto and if he wins a header just outside the penalty box for example, and he heads it to the wings and winger beats the defender and then crosses it into the box.

Your target man won't be there to head home because you've told not to get forward. Yet i thought one of the roles of target man who was told to win headers should get forward and get goals from crosses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you mention that as I've been thinking about that. In a home game I played recently, I had lots of crosses from the wingers and full backs played to the TM. On many occasions, even though the opposition d-line wasn't high and i'd pushed forward quite high myself, he wasn't close enough to the goal to score from a header. A lot of the time he wins the header, but it ends up as a comfortable save for the keeper or the header is wide.

So, carrying on from my thinking that passing can be paired with the d-line (as well as width) due to how far away from each other team mates are, I was thinking of changing the FWRs for the STs.

At home, the team will be more compact, so having mixed and often FWRs for the TM and FCa respectively may benefit you. For away games, as the team is more spread out, the rarely/mixed combination is probably more effective.

I've always used a mixed/often combination with my STs' FWRs, but in some games you can see the benefit of the TM dropping back a little. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see how rare/mixed FWRs for Strikers works for a short, narrow formation as if you are focusing passing through the middle as there are alot fewer crosses and high long balls to the targetman in such formations, so I find that it is better for the big man to come a bit deeper and hold up the ball and/or flick it on to one of the wingers or fast striker, or even pass back to your MCa/Playmaker. In these formations I find that wingers come into the pitch and into the box more often if the targetman plays such a role and they seem to score more in my formation atleast.

I would however use mixed/often FWR with direct, wide and fast formations as he is needed further up the picth to connect his head to crosses or long balls.

IMO

[KurtBevacqua]

I made some schemes based on wwfan's advice here just to play around with it. The attacking scheme he suggested works real well againt fair to midland teams at home. In the Scottish Cup final against Hearts using it I had one of those typical, beat the crap out of them and do everything but win kind of games. I lost in extra time despite a 16-7 shots on goal advantage. I'll grant could just have been a bad day. I may play with it more next preseason.

As for the defensive, road formation, I found that to be a good lead saver late in the game, nothing more. I have never, ever had any luck in V7 trying a defensive gameplan against a superior team. I always give up something eventually and never score. I feel I have a better chance with a more typically aggressive attack. Oh I may get beat 3,4, or 5 nil that way, but I also might win 2-1. Whereas going defensive I never win and draw about as often as I win going aggressive. I really think in this game being aggressive enhances defence.

[A sheppard herds the sheep]

wow. just read through all that and have made a new tactic through, a simple 4-4-2.

i'll be testing it at the weekend, i'll keep you updated.

[SOSeven]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SOSeven:

Wow! I just used the home setup and the difference for Yeading in the South Conference was amazing... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never mind. Posted too soon. After three decent wins it was downhill all the way. I'm about ready to give up on trying to figure out how to put together decent tactics. Nothing I try works; even cribbing from experts. Ah well.

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SOSeven:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SOSeven:

Wow! I just used the home setup and the difference for Yeading in the South Conference was amazing... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never mind. Posted too soon. After three decent wins it was downhill all the way. I'm about ready to give up on trying to figure out how to put together decent tactics. Nothing I try works; even cribbing from experts. Ah well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must admit they sem hard to implement or to get them working well. Having said that i had played 3 games drawing 1 wining one in league and then 1st leg of semi i played barca away using the away Att formation and to my surprise i whipped them 4-1 they did have ronaldinho sent off though which may have helped. In the return i played home formation and drew 1-1.

I may need to tweek the home to be more composed and get the chances i create in the back of the net. I dominate and create a lot but my Sc's seem to fire blanks.

If you feel these arent working for you have a go at my tactics. I will be persisting and trying to understand how these work and what needs tweeking for a dominating team.

Ill post the successful tactics once i see a good run developing for those in a dominating position where you are faviourites every game and all teams play a defensive 442 counter etc.

[TrueBlade]

wwfan great post, absolutely outstanding.

THe home methods you have explained i have tried to implement, i have had great success some good performances plenty of goals and plenty of wins.

The away tactic however is not so good, losses seem promonant, getting a few better performances but so far have won 4 drawn 4 lost 7.

The defensive tightness you talk about doesnt seem to exist teams are hammering them in against me from all angles, players seem to be dragged about!

Any ideas on whats going so wrong, i have used a very similar approach in individual settings as the home tactic just more defensive!

[laudrup108]

I decided last night to implement these tactics that wwfan was kind enough to share with us.

I have a fairly strong Ajax side which has been playing well but not spectacularly. After implementing the frameworks wwfan suggested I am currently on a 11 game winning streak. The thing is though that I am winning all my games by a large margin. The highest being a 7 - o pasting of Valencia. My team are playing liquid football.

I was a little suprised to see my team hand out such a beatdown while playing very narrow(Home framework). Its people like wwfan who allow others to break free from the tactical constraints that plague us at some time or another. Hats off to the guy.

[Pete S]

Sorry WWfan, but implementing any of the 4 variants of this tactic has made my team (small championship side) much, much worse.

Ok at home but can't score too many and always seem to concede as well.

Away - absolutely appalling and thrashed in most games.

I appreciate what you are trying to do and am pleased that it works for you but as this and some other posts show, this is not a strong tatic that can be applied to all divisions/teams.

Will now revert to using my own tactics. These are not great but at least the results and performances are more realistic.