More attributes?

[snowballnufc]

i realy like that Degration stat idea, get si to put it into the game

[Mike7077]

i realy like that Degration stat idea, get si to put it into the game

If you like it, fine. But must we call it 'degration'? Do we not have enough brain cells between us to work out a word to use that actually exists?

[Navie]

I just don't think you can give a player an attribute for what his decline is going to be like. You just can't know such a thing. Obviously, you can make informed guesses. For example, we might suggest that Cristiano Ronaldo will lose something from his game when his pace begins to decline. But we can't forecast when exactly that will happen, or exactly how dramatic it will be. So I personally would be against implementing a specific stat for this.

I know that you can't know but its possible to work out a solution which seems logical. For example we could say a players decline rate can be worked out by using his natural fitness and his mental attributes, in a way a player who is naturally fit and who can focus on staying at the top of his game will last longer than a player opposite of this.

I don't know why you are trying to force this issue into the water when you should be agreeing that all players in the game have a linear decline age and decline rate, doesn't that bother you?

[jod123]

I know that you can't know but its possible to work out a solution which seems logical. For example we could say a players decline rate can be worked out by using his natural fitness and his mental attributes, in a way a player who is naturally fit and who can focus on staying at the top of his game will last longer than a player opposite of this.

I don't know why you are trying to force this issue into the water when you should be agreeing that all players in the game have a linear decline age and decline rate, doesn't that bother you?

If it is based on his natural fitness and mental attributes then I don't think another 'degration' attribute is needed as no attribute is really based on the others. Maybe it would be better if the game made the decline of players more varied by using a combination of mental attributes and natural fitness but not though the use of another attribute.

[javier_83]

i like the way it is!!

[Navie]

If it is based on his natural fitness and mental attributes then I don't think another 'degration' attribute is needed as no attribute is really based on the others. Maybe it would be better if the game made the decline of players more varied by using a combination of mental attributes and natural fitness but not though the use of another attribute.

Well its just the same if the decline stat did exist but it could be a hidden attribute but yeah thats better than nothing, at least that way there is something in place which makes players even more unique to one another.

[Mike7077]

I know that you can't know but its possible to work out a solution which seems logical. For example we could say a players decline rate can be worked out by using his natural fitness and his mental attributes, in a way a player who is naturally fit and who can focus on staying at the top of his game will last longer than a player opposite of this.

I don't know why you are trying to force this issue into the water when you should be agreeing that all players in the game have a linear decline age and decline rate, doesn't that bother you?

Do my eyes deceive me or did you just tell me that I SHOULD be agreeing with you? Well, you may think that you are right, but I am as entitled to my opinion as you are. And as for 'forcing the issue into the water', why the hell bring it up if you don't want someone to talk about it? I happen to disagree with you on the notion that we need a stat for decline. We don't, and I have outlined why I believe that is. However, I did not, and will not, say that I am happy with how players decline. I do think it's not quite right at the moment.

[glamdring]

Are you sure that players all decline at the same rate now? It doesn't seem to match up much with my experience although I generally sign young players so I haven't had much experience of old players in FM08. Juan Riquelme is still doing great for me at Bremen, but he is still only 32 - his pace has dropped down to 9 or maybe 8, but he was never pacey anyway!

[Modricificant]

This "degration" attribute (not stat!!) is an absolutely terrible idea.

It is so unrealistic it is unbelievable. Liverpool have just signed Robbie Keane at the age of 28. Do you think Rafa was aware of exactly how long a service he could get from Keane? Of course not. He has looked at the situation and seen that Robbie does not particularly rely on pace, and his game should last until his mid-30s.

The only way this sort of idea could possibly work is if it was a hidden stat.

However, from what I understand of Football Manager, such a stat is not required. A player's attributes will be affected by how his CURRENT ABILITY varies over time. His CURRENT ability will heavily depend on his POTENTIAL ability.

The game code works out current ability levels constantly. I know, for instance, that if you put a promising youngster into first team football too soon, you may seriously damage the likelihood he will ever reach his potential. I think a similar thing works with ageing players. Their attributes will depreciate at a certain point - but a multitude of variations will determine this.

Variations such as:

Natural fitness

Professionalism

Training regimes

Amount of football played

Previous injuries

Happiness

To have a pre-determined attribute is nonsense. The longevity of a player's career is unknown when they are young and is dependent on many, many factors.

You need to use your own footballing knowledge rather than rely on a completely fantasy attribute.

[Mike7077]

Modricificant - Top class first post! And I happen to agree with everything you say. You can't just have one attribute for decline. Decline needs to be informed by a wide variety of things, all of which have their own attributes.

[Modricificant]

I have a little fact for you, Navie:

All players in FM2008 do NOT depreciate at the same age and rate.

That, sir, is a fact.

[Mike7077]

I have a little fact for you, Navie:

All players in FM2008 do NOT depreciate at the same age and rate.

That, sir, is a fact.

I'm far from happy with the way that decline occurs in the game, but I do agree with your statement.

[Modricificant]

Yeah, it is by no means ideal, but it is such a difficult thing to replicate.

I mean, do we even KNOW what causes some players to play for longer than others? Probably not. It is just guesswork and always will be. For that reason an attribute to determine it is even worse, because that will be one individual's idea on a player.

We could ask 100 people what age Ronaldo will retire, we'd probably get all ages ranging from 30 to 38. It is an impossible task.

[Kirmizi]

I also have to agree with Modricifant... also it's clear that in-game player attribute falloff is already influenced by some (uncertain) facters, but it can certainly use some improvement (just not another attribute!).

We already have way to many attributes in the game... like do we really need to have composure, concentration, and decision... sure they mean different things but mentally they are heavily related, but in the game their values can have great disparity.

[angryfmer]

i honestly think

long throws should be scrapped out of the game

i never see a player do a long throw anyway

it should be a ppm

passing should be split into 2

long and short

im sure not every player is as good at passing long as he is at passing short

somebody like fabregas - better at short than long

carrick - better long than short

Also knowing when a player will start to degrade in stats is nonsense

how can you actually know when ronaldo or rooney will start to drop in stats

there is no way to measure it

[Navie]

This "degration" attribute (not stat!!) is an absolutely terrible idea.

It is so unrealistic it is unbelievable. Liverpool have just signed Robbie Keane at the age of 28. Do you think Rafa was aware of exactly how long a service he could get from Keane? Of course not. He has looked at the situation and seen that Robbie does not particularly rely on pace, and his game should last until his mid-30s.

The only way this sort of idea could possibly work is if it was a hidden stat.

However, from what I understand of Football Manager, such a stat is not required. A player's attributes will be affected by how his CURRENT ABILITY varies over time. His CURRENT ability will heavily depend on his POTENTIAL ability.

The game code works out current ability levels constantly. I know, for instance, that if you put a promising youngster into first team football too soon, you may seriously damage the likelihood he will ever reach his potential. I think a similar thing works with ageing players. Their attributes will depreciate at a certain point - but a multitude of variations will determine this.

Variations such as:

Natural fitness

Professionalism

Training regimes

Amount of football played

Previous injuries

Happiness

To have a pre-determined attribute is nonsense. The longevity of a player's career is unknown when they are young and is dependent on many, many factors.

You need to use your own footballing knowledge rather than rely on a completely fantasy attribute.

I agree with what your saying but your missing the point...what i'm saying is at the moment we have...

...a game (FM2008) footballer and then we have the real life footballer. Now lets take Giggs as an example, Giggs in the game is no where as good as the Giggs in real life. Why?...because he declines to fast, what you said about the variations that affect a decline of a player may be right. What i'm trying to get at is that there is something that in the current game that says "This player is now 31...his stats should drop" regardless of what you mentioned:

Natural fitness

Professionalism

Training regimes

Amount of football played

Previous injuries

Happiness

I'm not argueing nor disagreeing with what you said. I think there is something that is not right so something should be put in place, maybe in the current game the above variations don't matter..maybe that is why...who knows?. Don't get me wrong...these are my thoughts on how to improve the game and i'm happy for people to come and disagree with them, some people may not see what i'm seeing but I do think this is something that needs addressing.

[jod123]

I agree with what your saying but your missing the point...what i'm saying is at the moment we have...

...a game (FM2008) footballer and then we have the real life footballer. Now lets take Giggs as an example, Giggs in the game is no where as good as the Giggs in real life. Why?...because he declines to fast, what you said about the variations that affect a decline of a player may be right. What i'm trying to get at is that there is something that in the current game that says "This player is now 31...his stats should drop" regardless of what you mentioned:

Natural fitness

Professionalism

Training regimes

Amount of football played

Previous injuries

Happiness

I'm not argueing nor disagreeing with what you said. I think there is something that is not right so something should be put in place, maybe in the current game the above variations don't matter..maybe that is why...who knows?. Don't get me wrong...these are my thoughts on how to improve the game and i'm happy for people to come and disagree with them, some people may not see what i'm seeing but I do think this is something that needs addressing.

In the game not all players attributes stop when they reach a certain age. Doesn't the game differ for certain positions as hints generally come up about what age certain player positions reach their peak at.

[andym78]

I don't think we need a 'deterioration' attribute. But I think the physical attributes do generally drop too sharply when a player gets to 30 in the game, if they decreased more gradually it would be more realistic and obviously if you're keeping an eye on your players attributes you'd notice them dropping. But players do decline when they're in their 30s. Not many players can play a full season of top flight football when they're 32+. Giggs is doing pretty well but he tends to play a more central role these days and he doesn't play as many minutes or as many games as he used to. And players like Phillips and Sheringham have kept going well into their 30s but have only really had any success at Championship level.

I agree that passing should be split into long and short. I also think that the free kicks, corners and penalties attributes should be removed as you can use other attributes to determine how good a player will be at these. Perhaps 'likes to take free kicks/penalties' could be a PPM

[Gentleman]

All players in FM2008 do NOT depreciate at the same age and rate.

Their attributes will depreciate at a certain point - but a multitude of variations will determine this.

I completely agree with you there. Unfortunately, just as Mike said, I am not happy with the way it happens now, which is much too lineair and predictable. Sure there are a few exceptions, but generally it happens as Navie says. He might be using the wrong words to describe it ("This player is now 31...his stats should drop"), but it is fairly accurate anyhow.

I often sign players who aren't young anymore, but despite playing often, being utterly happy due to league position and him tutoring youngsters, high determination and whatnot, his physical stats drop harder than a piano from the 10th floor. Oftentimes I start a season with him with 10 acceleration and 12 pace, only to find him back at the end of a season with 8 acceleration and 10 pace. Surely a 32 year old midfielder shouldn't be dropping his physical stats that hard? It's not like I give him an extra hard training, but I noticed it didn't really have much of an effect by either training a player of that age more or less; his stats still drop equally, while theoretically (at least in my theory) he shouldn't be dropping that hard.

And after the summer vacation, I get him back with 7 acceleration and 8 pace. Which is by that time pretty hard to improve again. That is, I count, 3 and 4 points within a season.

I can imagine that his stamina will drop and that his acceleration and pace will drop. I fully agree with that. But that should go gradually, not within a season - unless he's really at the end of his carreer. Surely I can believe that with people who are not as good, but people who played until recently in national teams and are pretty much the captain or highly experienced players who are pretty much the face of the club - surely they shouldn't decline that much after having reached the age of 32 or 33?

I once had a 35 year old defender, who was still technically capable of playing really well. I played him as a first team player, meaning he played about 70% of the games, in which he generally got substituted. He just had an acceleration of 3 and a pace of 2, while having a stamina of 2. Injuries? Not that many, or that serious. Natural fitness was still fairly high: 10. A determination of 15. Sorry, but while I agree that age should make your attributes decline, this is fairly ridiculous. The guy had a medium training schedule, focused on fitness training, but he still declined in all physical attributes as if he was losing them while running.

If anything, he should run out of stamina earlier. He should be losing some speed, and some technical ability due to his body. He should be getting worse on his reflexes to adapt to new situations, while improving his anticipation. He should be getting more often injured, or even more long-term injuries. But he shouldn't have to wear crutches to get by, for crying out loud. And that is what currently happens.

I admit that not all players decline at the same time and at the same rate. Nevertheless, the decline seems to start at least earlier than it should be and despite trying to take all of those variable factors in mind, the decline still goes faster than should be.

That is what bothers me. Perhaps I voice my opinion wrongly by stating not the proper words, but don't you agree that this is what the point of the whole problem is?

[glamdring]

Player degredation (sorry, but I just can't be doing with the continual use of a word that doesn't exist!) is something that can never really be accurate - it is all just guess work, just like researchers choosing PA for players who are 17 years old.

Some real life cases defy explanation. Take Pippo Inzaghi, the season before last he barely scored a goal, albeit he had some injuries. Last season he barely scored a goal before around Easter. Then suddenly he returned to being the most lethal striker in Serie A over the closing weeks of the season at 34 years old. As a Fiorentina fan I was watching in horror as Inzaghi suddenly went goal crazy and almost guided Milan to 4th place ahead of Fiorentina. How on earth can a game like FM handle a player like that in terms of getting his attributes and degredation right?

[Gentleman]

Player degredation (sorry, but I just can't be doing with the continual use of a word that doesn't exist!) is something that can never really be accurate - it is all just guess work, just like researchers choosing PA for players who are 17 years old.

But it happens, right? Hell, all attributes are more or less guesses. Some are more correct than others, but that's what happens when you try to convert all kinds of stuff into attributes.

How on earth can a game like FM handle a player like that in terms of getting his attributes and degredation right?

I think you don't. So unless there is a sort of 'insanity' hidden stat, it won't happen unless he gets in a team which adds fully to his preferred tactics, which draws out the best of him.

[SCIAG]

I once had a 35 year old defender, who was still technically capable of playing really well. I played him as a first team player, meaning he played about 70% of the games, in which he generally got substituted. He just had an acceleration of 3 and a pace of 2, while having a stamina of 2. Injuries? Not that many, or that serious. Natural fitness was still fairly high: 10. A determination of 15. Sorry, but while I agree that age should make your attributes decline, this is fairly ridiculous. The guy had a medium training schedule, focused on fitness training, but he still declined in all physical attributes as if he was losing them while running.

If anything, he should run out of stamina earlier. He should be losing some speed, and some technical ability due to his body. He should be getting worse on his reflexes to adapt to new situations, while improving his anticipation. He should be getting more often injured, or even more long-term injuries. But he shouldn't have to wear crutches to get by, for crying out loud. And that is what currently happens.

I've signed Maldini when he's released by Milan and doesn't retire. His physical attributes were all under 10 when I signed him (as they should be). However, with a bit of training I got him up to 14 stamina, 12 jumping, 9 natural fitness, 11 pace, 10 accel, 10 strength. Not bad for a forty one year old!

[Gentleman]

I've signed Maldini when he's released by Milan and doesn't retire. His physical attributes were all under 10 when I signed him (as they should be). However, with a bit of training I got him up to 14 stamina, 12 jumping, 9 natural fitness, 11 pace, 10 accel, 10 strength. Not bad for a forty one year old!

That's indeed nice. But isn't Maldini here the only exception who doesn't apply to the rules? ;-) I mean, everyone's talking about him being old and good, but no other players do the same.

[rougess]

i agree with modrificant, the only way this could possibly work would be if it was a hidden stat, as if manager's have no idea how long a player will stay in the game, we shouldn't either.

but then again, i'm not sure if this is necessary, as it is kind of already in the game. defender's who start to decline i have been playing up to the age of 34-35, but you never get 36 yr old pacy strikers, as irl. i fear that with this stat you would get 40 yr old strikers who relied on their pace in their peak, and wouldn't be suited to staying in the game

if the regens already suffer from badly placed attributes, this would probably make things worse