Changing A Game

[Thunda]

In every version of FM I just seem to run into the same problem ... changing a game when things aren't going your way.

On the whole, in creating a tactic, I'm usually ok .. I understand the TC and I also understand the in-game shouts and what they do and what they change.

My problem is WHAT to change and WHEN.

When I watch the game in the ME, everything always just looks the same from both sides .. Tippy-Tappy passing around the edge of the box that either results in everything breaking down, a long shot or for some strange reason, a chance gets created.

And this is where the problem lies .. as i say .. everything looks the same - I just don't see the space, the gaps, the threats, the opportunities.

Whether the opposition has parked the bus or they are on all-out-attack .. when watching a game, it all looks the same other than the action taking place at one end of the pitch or the other.

As such, I end up just randomly calling shouts in the hope this works or that works. I'll try playing narrow or wide for 20 minutes .. see if we turn things around .. nope .. ok, drop off them or push higher .. maybe even combine a couple of shouts .. sometime, when the planets are aligned, something will work and everyone is happy .. but its by pure chance most of the time ..

So that's my question : What to look for in the ME and how to recognise it.

Any help will be rewarded with chocolate.

[Cleon]

Have a read of these 2 threads;

Going Behind In A Game - Turning It Around (The Discussion)

The Full 90 Minutes - What I Do

[Thunda]

The thing is Cleon - I have read them. What you say makes perfect sense and for the first time ever I've started watching the first 15 minutes of games (in fact, sometimes I sit there for 30 minutes!) .. but it still comes down to the same problem .. I just don't "see" what's going on. Every time, to me, it just looks the same how things play out .. I can't really see whether the opposition is playing high or deep, I can't see if they are focusing down the flanks or the middle, short passing or direct, slow tempo or fast etc etc .. it all just looks the same to me when played out in the Match Engine.

[Cleon]

The thing is Cleon - I have read them. What you say makes perfect sense and for the first time ever I've started watching the first 15 minutes of games (in fact, sometimes I sit there for 30 minutes!) .. but it still comes down to the same problem .. I just don't "see" what's going on. Every time, to me, it just looks the same how things play out .. I can't really see whether the opposition is playing high or deep, I can't see if they are focusing down the flanks or the middle, short passing or direct, slow tempo or fast etc etc .. it all just looks the same to me when played out in the Match Engine.

We can all tell you what to look for and point out things to spot but at the end of the day it comes down to you actually been able to see the things.

Then no matter what anyone posts or says you'll still be the same

[Thunda]

And ergo, my problem ..

Take something obvious .. the opposition is parking the bus .. basic approach when facing that is control, wider play, maybe stand off them a bit more etc etc .. yet even after doing this, my players (wide midfielders, strikers) .. just seem to stand on the edge of the box .. even a DLF on Support will just stand there, maybe moving side to side every now and then .. DROP OFF THE LINE YOU IDIOT! .. and so to me, the control strategy just ends up the same and plays out the same.

Stick the fullbacks looking for overlap .. yeah, they move forward a bit more .. they and the wide midfielders will pass it between themselves a bit until a great crossing opportunity arises ready for my 18 jumping Target Man to get on the end of it and put it in the onion bag ..... but they'll stop, turn round and pass it infield to the DPL who'll welly it into row Z instead.

I don't know. As I said in the OP .. it tends to me just giving random shouts in the hope that something works ... sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't ..

[Thunda]

Here is one of the issues I see (maybe slightly off topic but in the spirit of things) .. on your thread "The Full 90 Minutes - What I do" .. after the 2nd screenshot where the fullback has lost the ball ..

In the above screenshot you can see my right back as lost the ball so this is something to keep an eye on and see if it is a regular occurrence. If it is then it could be useful to restrict him running with the ball as often. But I won’t change that yet as it could just be a one off.

Firstly, players lose the ball .. they have to otherwise you'd have 90% possession per game .. I wouldn't even see this as a problem if it happened in one of my games.

Even if it happens 2 or 3 times in 20 minutes .. its going to happen .. but .. even if its happening everytime, the solution you propose seems to go outside of the tactical creator .. going into the nuts and bolts and changing his Run With Ball slider .. Yeah you could reduce his role from say Support to Defend, but thats using a sledgehammer to crack a nut .. so the only solution is to go into the back ground and change his slider .. which to me, defeats the object of the Tactical Creator and the Shouts.

I tend not to do that .. I want to try and do it with just shouts ..

But ultimately, as I say, I wouldn't see that as a problem .. to me its part of the "working out" that the ME does for the forthcoming passage of play (however it turns out).

[Cleon]

Firstly, players lose the ball .. they have to otherwise you'd have 90% possession per game .. I wouldn't even see this as a problem if it happened in one of my games.

But if it happens a lot then it's an issue. You're taking the wording out of context but if you look at the screenshot what that quote was discussing then you can see why it would be a problem. Lets look at the screeshot,

By him losing the ball in my own half, when the opposition got the ball it suddenly became a 3v3 at the back. If this happens often then sooner or later it'll cost me goals, games and points.

Even if it happens 2 or 3 times in 20 minutes .. its going to happen .. but .. even if its happening everytime, the solution you propose seems to go outside of the tactical creator .. going into the nuts and bolts and changing his Run With Ball slider ..

It doesn't go against it though. The TC is the tool used to create a tactic, maintaining it and making it work is down to the user. The TC doesn't take into account your team or the attributes they have. You have to use some kind of common sense. Sometimes you have to change things like RWB, Long Shots if it becomes a problem for you and is giving possession away.

Yeah you could reduce his role from say Support to Defend, but thats using a sledgehammer to crack a nut .. so the only solution is to go into the back ground and change his slider .. which to me, defeats the object of the Tactical Creator and the Shouts.

But it if happens constant its a major issue. If it's now and again then fair enough you can live with that. But when you lose games due to it then you have to fix it.

I tend not to do that .. I want to try and do it with just shouts ..

That's all I use 98% of the time. Then the other 2% is split between the odd change like I mentioned above or by just changing strategy.

But ultimately, as I say, I wouldn't see that as a problem .. to me its part of the "working out" that the ME does for the forthcoming passage of play (however it turns out).

Then you'll always struggle if you are not open to the possibility that on the odd occassion you might have to do something that you don't class as 'normal'. You might not see it as an issue but in reality its a big problem if it costs you games and keeps putting you on the back foot.

[lewis999]

This is just a small thing but it might work and it's what has helped me, when you're watching the full game for the first 15/30 mins or whatever, don't just focus on the part of the pitch where the ball is all the time, have a look to see what your other player's are doing in regards to are they making themselves available or are they not close enough to someone.

I think Cleon said in one of her threads that sometimes it's beneficial to just pause the game at random points in the game, just hit the space bar and then have a look around, do it after another 10 seconds or so I dunno but just change the way you do things and like Cleon said be open to doing things that are 'outside the box'.

[Rashidi]

Try watching the game on 2D as well..you can see things like defensive lines, formation shapes, the kind of passing that people make..etc.

Good rule of thumb to follow to see if you are too high on the pitch is to observe your own players..defenders. If your defenders are very fast then its ok for them to turn around and chase a ball if it goes over the top..look out for balls like deep kicks from the opponents half to see if you are too deep or not. If your defenders are slow then reduce your strategy.

[peleJunior]

Pausing every now and then is par the course for me. I check on passing options alot. Few things that pop up regularly start to become ingrained in your brain after awhile like: opposition fullbacks bombing forward and your giving up chances, usually get myself straight on counter. Another one is the deep lying forward in a two up front finding space and murdering you with through balls. After awhile you spot that stuff straight away.

[lam]

Space bar is your friend during a game.

If you have problems reading the match engine then use 'other' information that is presented.

• Before a game, review the scout report. This tells you where the team scores their goals, where their assists come from and even how they assist. Therefore you know what to look for before you even get into the game.
  
• Use the analysis tab. Look at average player positioning for you and them. Look at passes, where is the focus. Look at shots, where are they/you shooting from. Where are you conceding the most setpeices.....
  
• Statistics tab is great. Who has the most passes, crosses dribbles, which FB is giving you the most problems.... then use the analysis tab to work out where it happens.
  

The information is always there, but it's a case of wnting to use it. Analysis is boring as hell when you want to plough through a game, but if you cant read the ME when it's playing things out for you, then use that instead.

LAM

[Thunda]

I guess I'm still waiting for that "Aha" moment with FM .. its been the same for years .. I can put together a good and logical tactic and either use the players I have at their "Best" or get players in who fit what I'm doing .. and on the most part, I have success with it .. where I've always fallen down is like what I've said in this thread .. changing a game ..

For instance, you're favourites for a game and expect beforehand an "easy" match ... yet when the game gets going, its one way traffic from the opposition as they are playing on the attack .. yeah, I have no problem dropping to counter or even lower if I feel the need to .. but then it just turns to a "backs to the wall" game .. Call me Kevin Keegan if you wish .. but if my attack is better than their attack (and I have the better players all round to back it up) then I want to be able to impose my attacking game on them .. yet whenever I see on the bottom of the screen " .. the Dog and Duck are playing with more attacking options ... " then I know its going to be shooting practice for the opposition team and any shouts or OI instructions I use don't seem to stop it .. hence why its now got to the stage of randomly trying things until I see an improvement ..

When I watch a game on TV or sat in the stands, although no Jose, I can "see" whats going on in the game .. I might not have answers, but I can see it .. but with the ME .. as I say .. every game just looks the same to me .. even so far as playing 1 on passing or playing 20 .. it just looks the same.

Is it worth me just doing a test game and putting my own teams sliders (or players sliders) on extremes (one at a time) to start seeing the differences, or are they just too subtle to notice?

[Cleon]

I guess I'm still waiting for that "Aha" moment with FM .. its been the same for years .. I can put together a good and logical tactic and either use the players I have at their "Best" or get players in who fit what I'm doing .. and on the most part, I have success with it .. where I've always fallen down is like what I've said in this thread .. changing a game ..

For instance, you're favourites for a game and expect beforehand an "easy" match ... yet when the game gets going, its one way traffic from the opposition as they are playing on the attack .. yeah, I have no problem dropping to counter or even lower if I feel the need to .. but then it just turns to a "backs to the wall" game .. Call me Kevin Keegan if you wish .. but if my attack is better than their attack (and I have the better players all round to back it up) then I want to be able to impose my attacking game on them .. yet whenever I see on the bottom of the screen " .. the Dog and Duck are playing with more attacking options ... " then I know its going to be shooting practice for the opposition team and any shouts or OI instructions I use don't seem to stop it .. hence why its now got to the stage of randomly trying things until I see an improvement ..

When I watch a game on TV or sat in the stands, although no Jose, I can "see" whats going on in the game .. I might not have answers, but I can see it .. but with the ME .. as I say .. every game just looks the same to me .. even so far as playing 1 on passing or playing 20 .. it just looks the same.

Is it worth me just doing a test game and putting my own teams sliders (or players sliders) on extremes (one at a time) to start seeing the differences, or are they just too subtle to notice?

One thing I was wondering though was in my example above why didn't you think losing the ball in those kind of areas in a match is a bad thing? Surely if you saw the same thing happening IRL you'd think it was an issue if it was starting attacks for the opposition deep in your own half. How is that not deemed as important by you?

Didn't you say you used shouts and the TC? Well in that case don't think of the sliders as 1-20 think of them as their description i.e easy, normal, hard etc. If you try and break it down to numbers you'll lose the plot and won't see much difference between each little tweak.

If you can spot things in a game watching the TV or by actually been at the match then FM isn't much different really and you should be able to spot something. It's basically the same, although fixing them might be more complex compared to real life but seeing something that goes wrong is the same.

As for imposing your style of play on teams well you can do that. But at the same time you have to be aware of the counter attacking threat of the opposition if you are relentless with attack after attack. You have to learn to defend the space that you leave. In fact you can even impose your style of play if you are a much weaker team too aslong as you attack the space well enough what the opposition give you to play in and try and cover up your weaknesses in your own system.

Have a look at this;

[video=youtube;rSdE2ccYwmw]

You'd never guess I was 2 divisions lower would you and playing the best team in Brazil? You see the slick quick movement and 1 touch football? That's me imposing my own style.

[Thunda]

I reply to the rest of the post after I've looked at your video but to answer one thing ..

One thing I was wondering though was in my example above why didn't you think losing the ball in those kind of areas in a match is a bad thing? Surely if you saw the same thing happening IRL you'd think it was an issue if it was starting attacks for the opposition deep in your own half. How is that not deemed as important by you?

Of course its a "Bad Thing" but bad things happen .. Messi and Ronaldo lose the ball every now and then and sometimes in bad positions, but we wouldn't tell them to "run with ball" less - that's their game and if the Full Back can dribble and he's going to suceed 6 out of 10 times, then why limit his game?

But heres my thing .. this is a simulation, and sometimes things happen which makes no sense but the "dice" in the background have decided it must be .. for instance, the old argument from versions past (not played enough with 13 to know if it still happens) .. the case of a Long Shots 3 guy smacking a 30 yard volley into the top the corner .. "Close him down" you might say .. but sorry, I'm not worried about a guy with 2 left feet shooting from 30 yards .. I WANT him to because he's theres a guy in Row Z falling asleep and a ball in his face will wake him up .. but in the ME he actually hits them better than Gerrard ... yeah, give him enough chances and all that .. but I shouldn't be worried about it but in the ME you have to be worried about it.

But then its a game and not real football and sometimes the game decides that something has to happen that makes little sense .. like defenders dallying on the ball when theres no strikers within 30 yards, only to get tackled and you're 1-0 down .. superkeepers .. or magnetic balls with metal crossbars .. or wingers not crossing when they're in a perfect crossing position 'cos the engine has decided this passage of play ends in a piledriver into the top corner by Long John Silver instead.

I'm not bitching the game or the ME .. but at times, it just doesn't make sense ..

I'll watch your video and then comment further.

[Cleon]

Of course its a "Bad Thing" but bad things happen .. Messi and Ronaldo lose the ball every now and then and sometimes in bad positions, but we wouldn't tell them to "run with ball" less - that's their game and if the Full Back can dribble and he's going to suceed 6 out of 10 times, then why limit his game?

I said keep an eye on it though. If he's only making 2 successful dribbles out of 10 and 6 of those failed attempts have given the opposition 5 chances then thats bad and something has to be changed to limit the damage. You wouldn't be limiting his game. You'd be improving your sides fortunes and be covering up a weak area. Ofc if a player is more successful than not then you wouldn't change it, I thought that much would be obvious.

But heres my thing .. this is a simulation, and sometimes things happen which makes no sense but the "dice" in the background have decided it must be .. for instance, the old argument from versions past (not played enough with 13 to know if it still happens) .. the case of a Long Shots 3 guy smacking a 30 yard volley into the top the corner .. "Close him down" you might say .. but sorry, I'm not worried about a guy with 2 left feet shooting from 30 yards .. I WANT him to because he's theres a guy in Row Z falling asleep and a ball in his face will wake him up .. but in the ME he actually hits them better than Gerrard ... yeah, give him enough chances and all that .. but I shouldn't be worried about it but in the ME you have to be worried about it.

Just because you don't understand something though doesn't mean that's how it works. 99% of things can be explained in the game if you understand it.

But then its a game and not real football and sometimes the game decides that something has to happen that makes little sense ..

No it doesn't.

Something happens for a reason, whether than be an attribute issue, lack of options issue or a tactical issue. Obviously mistakes happen though but if something happens regular then it's a user error (unless it can be proved to be a bug ofc)

[Thunda]

The video is fine, but all it really shows is what goes on in the background has worked for you .. I have many a situation where I'm on the outside of the box and the players just don't make those runs or the passes just don't get made whether I'm playing at the top level with top players or at the low levels .. I see it clearly .. but nothing happens ..

I mentioned up above .. Wingers who get into great crossing positions on the byline but don't cross .. they turn around instead and pass it back to the FB or infield to the DLP .. despite being on Play Wider, Cross Often, Aim Target Man, from Byline .. theres nothing more I can do there to make him do what I want him to do, but he just won't do it .. It leaves me thinking senseless things at times that my Defensive Line needs to be 2 touches lower and then maybe he might do it as it will effect the calculations in the background because theres nothing more I can do with him directly. CROSS THE DAMN THING!

Hence random shouts. "Maybe this will work"

[Cleon]

The video is fine, but all it really shows is what goes on in the background has worked for you .. I have many a situation where I'm on the outside of the box and the players just don't make those runs or the passes just don't get made whether I'm playing at the top level with top players or at the low levels .. I see it clearly .. but nothing happens ..

I mentioned up above .. Wingers who get into great crossing positions on the byline but don't cross .. they turn around instead and pass it back to the FB or infield to the DLP .. despite being on Play Wider, Cross Often, Aim Target Man, from Byline .. theres nothing more I can do there to make him do what I want him to do, but he just won't do it .. It leaves me thinking senseless things at times that my Defensive Line needs to be 2 touches lower and then maybe he might do it as it will effect the calculations in the background because theres nothing more I can do with him directly. CROSS THE DAMN THING!

Hence random shouts. "Maybe this will work"

It's works for me because I know what I'm doing and understand the ME, which is what I thought you wanted to learn? Yet you dismiss everything that's said.

No matter what you try wont work if your own logic is flawed.

So what's the real purpose of the thread? Are you genuinely wanting to learn and spot things or not? I feel I'm wasting my time here.

You say you play TC and shouts yet talk about things as 2 nothces here and 2 notches there. Which doesn't make sense in all honesty if you wanted to change things via shouts

[Thunda]

I said keep an eye on it though. If he's only making 2 successful dribbles out of 10 and 6 of those failed attempts have given the opposition 5 chances then thats bad and something has to be changed to limit the damage. You wouldn't be limiting his game. You'd be improving your sides fortunes and be covering up a weak area. Ofc if a player is more successful than not then you wouldn't change it, I thought that much would be obvious.

No problem with that .. but you only get to know that by watching the game for 90 minutes which very few people will do. The stats only show "Run Past Opponent" and might say 3 .. 3 out of how many attempts? 3? or 100? ..

Just because you don't understand something though doesn't mean that's how it works. 99% of things can be explained in the game if you understand it.

No it doesn't.

Something happens for a reason, whether than be an attribute issue, lack of options issue or a tactical issue. Obviously mistakes happen though but if something happens regular then it's a user error (unless it can be proved to be a bug ofc)

Right. And its that 99% that people struggle with. ..

[Cleon]

No problem with that .. but you only get to know that by watching the game for 90 minutes which very few people will do. The stats only show "Run Past Opponent" and might say 3 .. 3 out of how many attempts? 3? or 100? ..

Right. And its that 99% that people struggle with. ..

The stats tell you a lot more than that if you use the analysis tab and customise your views on the squad page.

[Thunda]

It's works for me because I know what I'm doing and understand the ME, which is what I thought you wanted to learn? Yet you dismiss everything that's said.

No matter what you try wont work if your own logic is flawed.

So what's the real purpose of the thread? Are you genuinely wanting to learn and spot things or not? I feel I'm wasting my time here.

You say you play TC and shouts yet talk about things as 2 nothces here and 2 notches there. Which doesn't make sense in all honesty if you wanted to change things via shouts

Jesus Cleon. I'm not dismissing what your saying - I'm saying things don't make sense. I wouldn't have made the thread if I was ignoring what was being said. We aren't all blessed, you know .. I've given an example there with wingers crossing (or the lack of) .. If a winger is getting into positions to cross (and there are people in the box waiting) and everything is logically set with him to cross the ball and he won't do it, I can't see what I else I can do to make him do so .. but he won't .. he'll just pass it back to the FB or infield to the DLP .. In that situation, what else should I be looking at?