Stat attack

[Maviarab]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't mean to rant and I don't mean to offend you re: percentages but these are not facts and i'm fed up with people portraying them as so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just read all tis thrad and that quote above by Nomis is the best thing in here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Excellent explanation, shame it wasn't explained like that in the instruction or the box.

Before any accuses me of double standards again and just to play devils advocate once more </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your just not geting it are you bully? Post after post you have written cirtually the same thing over and over again despite being told numerous times the explanations for it. Its the same old whiners thread when all is said and done and like many others I'm sick of them on this forum. you say time and time again, its the same EVERY MATCH. Then upload some screenshots, some pkm's and prove what your quoting as FACT and not opinion.

[Smoggster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mavia

your just not geting it are you bully? Post after post you have written cirtually the same thing over and over again despite being told numerous times the explanations for it. Its the same old whiners thread when all is said and done and like many others I'm sick of them on this forum. you say time and time again, its the same EVERY MATCH. Then upload some screenshots, some pkm's and prove what your quoting as FACT and not opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok i would agree with you but it aint just happening to him but a LOT of people seem to have the same things happening to them and that aint just coincedence besides my way of thinking if there team goes to a 4-2-4 formation and you do excactly the same at same time weather your team is better on paper or not it will be the comp ai that will get the goal not you so something gone wrong there if you dont believe me try it i did with man utd for 1st 5 games on extended highlights

[Ched]

Ok, a number of good points punctuated by assumptions.

If you start a thread by saying "I don't want anyone to use the word 'tactics'" then you are asking for trouble, i'll give you my take on why this happened and i may use the word tactics.

1 - You are reading too much into player stats - basically a player with crossing of 10 will produce a perfect cross less frequently than a plaer with crossing of 18 - so it is entirely possible that the cross from which he scored was his 1 in 10 perfect cross - just as a player with finishing 6 will sometimes score. Stats are a measure of how often a player can produce the sublime, one offs are possible with anybody.

2 - if you reduce your dline and mentality when 3-0 up what message does this send out to your players? IMO this sounds very much like a "job done lads" which could very easily cause them to switch off or just become complacent - in this instance it could very well be this tactical change that incited a little bit more pressure. (whether you want to talk about tactics or not, i really don't give a toss).

You have also said "But we have to get away from the words "In reality"." - FM is a simulation of reality, therefore the occasionaly happenings of real life will crop up in FM - therefore the examples people are giving from RL are just a perfect demonstration that FM has got it spot on.

IF kitson produces 3 perfect crosses and a weaker player outjumped your defence 3 times, then you would have a more than valid complaint, however one-offs should be accepted for what they are.

I forget who gave the barnsely striker vs cudicini stats, but that demonstrates my point perfectly - in 10 attempts to win the ball, you would expect carlo to win 9 - chelsea vs barnsley showed what happens when the strikers wins it occasionally.

For future reference, when i'm a few goals up, i try not to sit back, as it quite often causes this type of complacency.

I'm struggling to keep track of whether you are being serious or not as this statement "If random imperfections are coded to reflect reality, we all may as well take no notice of the play attributes at all." - is beyond silly. If you think that random imperfections shouldn't be in the game, then i think FM is not the game for you.

Hope this helps.

[Nomis07]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Smoggster:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mavia

your just not geting it are you bully? Post after post you have written cirtually the same thing over and over again despite being told numerous times the explanations for it. Its the same old whiners thread when all is said and done and like many others I'm sick of them on this forum. you say time and time again, its the same EVERY MATCH. Then upload some screenshots, some pkm's and prove what your quoting as FACT and not opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok i would agree with you but it aint just happening to him but a LOT of people seem to have the same things happening to them and that aint just coincedence besides my way of thinking if there team goes to a 4-2-4 formation and you do excactly the same at same time weather your team is better on paper or not it will be the comp ai that will get the goal not you so something gone wrong there if you dont believe me try it i did with man utd for 1st 5 games on extended highlights </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd have to disagee, when drawing or trailing and especially in cup competition I change to a 4-3-3 with all defenders attacking, 2 out and out strikers and 1 target man. This has been extremely handy and has got me out of jail a good few times. The AI does not have a monopoly on a last minute goal.

To lighten the mood, my best experience was agaisnt Lyon in the CL semis when a midfielder I had signed but had disappointed came on for his first appearance in 15 games and went up front for the last few minutes. 2-2 on agg and he chips the keeper. I could have kissed him, so it does happen in our favour as well.

[Nomis07]

I obviously mean all midfielders attacking rather than efenders, i'm not quite that gung ho.

[Ched]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Smoggster:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mavia

your just not geting it are you bully? Post after post you have written cirtually the same thing over and over again despite being told numerous times the explanations for it. Its the same old whiners thread when all is said and done and like many others I'm sick of them on this forum. you say time and time again, its the same EVERY MATCH. Then upload some screenshots, some pkm's and prove what your quoting as FACT and not opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok i would agree with you but it aint just happening to him but a LOT of people seem to have the same things happening to them and that aint just coincedence besides my way of thinking if there team goes to a 4-2-4 formation and you do excactly the same at same time weather your team is better on paper or not it will be the comp ai that will get the goal not you so something gone wrong there if you dont believe me try it i did with man utd for 1st 5 games on extended highlights </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd have to disagee, when drawing or trailing and especially in cup competition I change to a 4-3-3 with all defenders attacking, 2 out and out strikers and 1 target man. This has been extremely handy and has got me out of jail a good few times. The AI does not have a monopoly on a last minute goal.

To lighten the mood, my best experience was agaisnt Lyon in the CL semis when a midfielder I had signed but had disappointed came on for his first appearance in 15 games and went up front for the last few minutes. 2-2 on agg and he chips the keeper. I could have kissed him, so it does happen in our favour as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there's a quite good post by 4-2-4 - who comments on strange happenings occuring in both the players favor and against him. Too often people blame their tactics when they win, and blame the game when they lose.

[Jase1982]

Why are you complaining about beating Reading 3-1? You won the game.

The result is perfectly feesable, and the problem, as I believe has been mentioned before, is most probably down to your players mental attributes mixed in with the change in team mentality you implemented prior to the goal.

I don't see this as being a bug, if it happens all the time, work out what you did tactically prior to the game and try to identify the problem.

[bullybeef]

I certainly don't believe it's a bug, it's just they way I have nicknamed it. Perhaps it should be called, 'coded reality'.

I do hope understand this is only a rant to gain discussion and out those ppl who think there is no where to go to get a little help or advice.

Even reality can be strange, but odds are odds and the banker usually wins. The odd shock crops up here and but without a decent player or two in a good team then Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U wouldn’t be consistent and Premier champions as often has they are. If the odds say you’re the favourite then if you replay the game 5 times you should win three. However this isn’t always the case.

All I want and again excuse me from repeating myself is to get back to the facts regarding player attributes and have them set in stone. There is enough guessing in FM to question whether a player is fast when the game tells us he has 18 for pace.

[Nomis07]

Bullbeef, you aren't listening to a word anyone says, just like your other thread.

FM is supposed to be a fair reflection of football and in so doing must have discrepencies. I don't want to watch my winger with 20 crossing put a cross plum on my strikers head every time because David Beckham can't do it so why should the game.

You are basically asking for the ability to counteract odd happenings in the game, which i'm sorry but is totally ridiculous and laughable.

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Bullbeef, you aren't listening to a word anyone says, just like your other thread.

FM is supposed to be a fair reflection of football and in so doing must have discrepencies. I don't want to watch my winger with 20 crossing put a cross plum on my strikers head every time because David Beckham can't do it so why should the game.

You are basically asking for the ability to counteract odd happenings in the game, which i'm sorry but is totally ridiculous and laughable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where exactly did I say that??

Here is exactly what I am saying….are you ready….A players attribute is what it is. Again if he fast (17+)he is grease lightening. If he has 20 and heading and jumping, he is unchallengeable in the air. Other aspects shouldn’t be taken into account.

Either FM goes by its word on thing or change the attribute ratings to out of 100 instead of 20. If you don’t want players with a 20 rating for crossing, hit the striker every time, than he shouldn’t be a 20 for crossing, should he?? Pace isn’t an art form, it’s a physical fact, either you are quick or not. So other discrepancies shouldn’t count against pace. Just the same has height. A taller player will always have an advantage against a smaller player when jumping for the ball. This is physical fact. Of course if the cross is low and he scores with a stooping header or volley maybe, this makes sense, but do we see this on the commentary??

I am not questioning FM quest for reality. I am questioning how it hands out attributes out to players who defy the odds and behave differently than there attributes depict.

[bod1035]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Bullbeef, you aren't listening to a word anyone says, just like your other thread.

FM is supposed to be a fair reflection of football and in so doing must have discrepencies. I don't want to watch my winger with 20 crossing put a cross plum on my strikers head every time because David Beckham can't do it so why should the game.

You are basically asking for the ability to counteract odd happenings in the game, which i'm sorry but is totally ridiculous and laughable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where exactly did I say that??

Here is exactly what I am saying….are you ready….A players attribute is what it is. Again if he fast (17+)he is grease lightening. If he has 20 and heading and jumping, he is unchallengeable in the air. Other aspects shouldn’t be taken into account.

Either FM goes by its word on thing or change the attribute ratings to out of 100 instead of 20. If you don’t want players with a 20 rating for crossing, hit the striker every time, than he shouldn’t be a 20 for crossing, should he?? Pace isn’t an art form, it’s a physical fact, either you are quick or not. So other discrepancies shouldn’t count against pace. Just the same has height. A taller player will always have an advantage against a smaller player when jumping for the ball. This is physical fact. Of course if the cross is low and he scores with a stooping header or volley maybe, this makes sense, but do we see this on the commentary??

I am not questioning FM quest for reality. I am questioning how it hands out attributes out to players who defy the odds and behave differently than there attributes depict. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry but i agree with the people who are saying you are not listening to a word anyone is saying.

What sort of game would this be if a defender with 20 for heading could not be challenged, it would not happen like this in real life so it should not happen in this game.

The game is a simulation of the real thing after all.

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bod1035:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Bullbeef, you aren't listening to a word anyone says, just like your other thread.

FM is supposed to be a fair reflection of football and in so doing must have discrepencies. I don't want to watch my winger with 20 crossing put a cross plum on my strikers head every time because David Beckham can't do it so why should the game.

You are basically asking for the ability to counteract odd happenings in the game, which i'm sorry but is totally ridiculous and laughable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where exactly did I say that??

Here is exactly what I am saying….are you ready….A players attribute is what it is. Again if he fast (17+)he is grease lightening. If he has 20 and heading and jumping, he is unchallengeable in the air. Other aspects shouldn’t be taken into account.

Either FM goes by its word on thing or change the attribute ratings to out of 100 instead of 20. If you don’t want players with a 20 rating for crossing, hit the striker every time, than he shouldn’t be a 20 for crossing, should he?? Pace isn’t an art form, it’s a physical fact, either you are quick or not. So other discrepancies shouldn’t count against pace. Just the same has height. A taller player will always have an advantage against a smaller player when jumping for the ball. This is physical fact. Of course if the cross is low and he scores with a stooping header or volley maybe, this makes sense, but do we see this on the commentary??

I am not questioning FM quest for reality. I am questioning how it hands out attributes out to players who defy the odds and behave differently than there attributes depict. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry but i agree with the people who are saying you are not listening to a word anyone is saying.

What sort of game would this be if a defender with 20 for heading could not be challenged, it would not happen like this in real life so it should not happen in this game.

The game is a simulation of the real thing after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funnily enough even though you don’t agree with me you have kind of reinforced my point. I completely agree and you have made my point easier to understand.

Wouldn’t it be pointless of have Carragher with 20 for heading and being unchallengeable in the air? It would be massively advantageous if he was your player but a nightmare to play against.

Well Ladies and Gents, this IS real life. Man U’s Ronaldo, against the so call lesser teams is unplayable and it is where he scores most of his goals. Against the better teams he goes missing. So should he be 19 for dribbling then?

My interpretation of this is Ronaldo is unplayable when on the ball but IRL he isn’t so he shouldn’t be a 19 for dribbling in the first place. All other aspects of his personality/abilities should not count any more or less for his ability to dribble.

This is my point. Abilities one thing, mentality is another. FM has merge the two to maintain ambiguity. If a player is fast, he’s fast no matter how lazy he is. Anelka is the perfect example, bone idle but grease lightning.

[bod1035]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bod1035:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Bullbeef, you aren't listening to a word anyone says, just like your other thread.

FM is supposed to be a fair reflection of football and in so doing must have discrepencies. I don't want to watch my winger with 20 crossing put a cross plum on my strikers head every time because David Beckham can't do it so why should the game.

You are basically asking for the ability to counteract odd happenings in the game, which i'm sorry but is totally ridiculous and laughable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where exactly did I say that??

Here is exactly what I am saying….are you ready….A players attribute is what it is. Again if he fast (17+)he is grease lightening. If he has 20 and heading and jumping, he is unchallengeable in the air. Other aspects shouldn’t be taken into account.

Either FM goes by its word on thing or change the attribute ratings to out of 100 instead of 20. If you don’t want players with a 20 rating for crossing, hit the striker every time, than he shouldn’t be a 20 for crossing, should he?? Pace isn’t an art form, it’s a physical fact, either you are quick or not. So other discrepancies shouldn’t count against pace. Just the same has height. A taller player will always have an advantage against a smaller player when jumping for the ball. This is physical fact. Of course if the cross is low and he scores with a stooping header or volley maybe, this makes sense, but do we see this on the commentary??

I am not questioning FM quest for reality. I am questioning how it hands out attributes out to players who defy the odds and behave differently than there attributes depict. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry but i agree with the people who are saying you are not listening to a word anyone is saying.

What sort of game would this be if a defender with 20 for heading could not be challenged, it would not happen like this in real life so it should not happen in this game.

The game is a simulation of the real thing after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funnily enough even though you don’t agree with me you have kind of reinforced my point. I completely agree and you have made my point easier to understand.

Wouldn’t it be pointless of have Carragher with 20 for heading and being unchallengeable in the air? It would be massively advantageous if he was your player but a nightmare to play against.

Well Ladies and Gents, this IS real life. Man U’s Ronaldo, against the so call lesser teams is unplayable and it is where he scores most of his goals. Against the better teams he goes missing. So should he be 19 for dribbling then?

My interpretation of this is Ronaldo is unplayable when on the ball but IRL he isn’t so he shouldn’t be a 19 for dribbling in the first place. All other aspects of his personality/abilities should not count any more or less for his ability to dribble.

This is my point. Abilities one thing, mentality is another. FM has merge the two to maintain ambiguity. If a player is fast, he’s fast no matter how lazy he is. Anelka is the perfect example, bone idle but grease lightning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not my point at all. Of course other attributes should effect each other.

Say a player has 20 heading for example but only 10 bravery, he may not be as good at defencive headers as someone with 16 heading and 16 bravery because he is willing to put himself in harms way, where the other player may hesitate therefore making a mistake.

all attributes have at least another attribute that effects it. What is the point in being the fastest with pace if your acceleration is only 10.Someone slightly sloewer but with better acceleration may cover ground more quickly.

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bod1035:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bod1035:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Bullbeef, you aren't listening to a word anyone says, just like your other thread.

FM is supposed to be a fair reflection of football and in so doing must have discrepencies. I don't want to watch my winger with 20 crossing put a cross plum on my strikers head every time because David Beckham can't do it so why should the game.

You are basically asking for the ability to counteract odd happenings in the game, which i'm sorry but is totally ridiculous and laughable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where exactly did I say that??

Here is exactly what I am saying….are you ready….A players attribute is what it is. Again if he fast (17+)he is grease lightening. If he has 20 and heading and jumping, he is unchallengeable in the air. Other aspects shouldn’t be taken into account.

Either FM goes by its word on thing or change the attribute ratings to out of 100 instead of 20. If you don’t want players with a 20 rating for crossing, hit the striker every time, than he shouldn’t be a 20 for crossing, should he?? Pace isn’t an art form, it’s a physical fact, either you are quick or not. So other discrepancies shouldn’t count against pace. Just the same has height. A taller player will always have an advantage against a smaller player when jumping for the ball. This is physical fact. Of course if the cross is low and he scores with a stooping header or volley maybe, this makes sense, but do we see this on the commentary??

I am not questioning FM quest for reality. I am questioning how it hands out attributes out to players who defy the odds and behave differently than there attributes depict. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry but i agree with the people who are saying you are not listening to a word anyone is saying.

What sort of game would this be if a defender with 20 for heading could not be challenged, it would not happen like this in real life so it should not happen in this game.

The game is a simulation of the real thing after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funnily enough even though you don’t agree with me you have kind of reinforced my point. I completely agree and you have made my point easier to understand.

Wouldn’t it be pointless of have Carragher with 20 for heading and being unchallengeable in the air? It would be massively advantageous if he was your player but a nightmare to play against.

Well Ladies and Gents, this IS real life. Man U’s Ronaldo, against the so call lesser teams is unplayable and it is where he scores most of his goals. Against the better teams he goes missing. So should he be 19 for dribbling then?

My interpretation of this is Ronaldo is unplayable when on the ball but IRL he isn’t so he shouldn’t be a 19 for dribbling in the first place. All other aspects of his personality/abilities should not count any more or less for his ability to dribble.

This is my point. Abilities one thing, mentality is another. FM has merge the two to maintain ambiguity. If a player is fast, he’s fast no matter how lazy he is. Anelka is the perfect example, bone idle but grease lightning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not my point at all. Of course other attributes should effect each other.

Say a player has 20 heading for example but only 10 bravery, he may not be as good at defencive headers as someone with 16 heading and 16 bravery because he is willing to put himself in harms way, where the other player may hesitate therefore making a mistake.

all attributes have at least another attribute that effects it. What is the point in being the fastest with pace if your acceleration is only 10.Someone slightly sloewer but with better acceleration may cover ground more quickly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is your opinion of how FMs attributes effect each other. This is called ambiguity. The difference of opinion means only the ppl who coded the game can actually state the fact regarding what things actually mean.

Again, my point is nobody is or every has been a 20 for heading. In simple terms, if I’m looking for a fast striker, I’ll look at pace, acceleration, work rate and determination first. If he’s outrun by someone slower than him on match day, I’ve certainly missed something.

E.g. : I was a runner rather than a fighter at school. Whenever I played rugby or football, if I had the ball I’d run faster with it than without it so no-one would clobber me. Call my pace and acceleration 17 and bravery 10.

CONCLUSION: We can twist our versions of the what the attributes mean to suit out points, but this is the problem. Nobody really knows the facts, do we?

[bullybeef]

Sorry, just to add a question then: Why do players who are considerably slower often outrun players with an higher pace/acceleration attributes? Also consider that the faster players mentalities also out weigh that of his slower opponent.

Remember this happens in my favour too. I am playing devils advocate here.

[bod1035]

how about fatigue. Anyway your initial rant was that your defender with 20 heading and jumping should not be beaten by i lesser player, i think we have argued the case pretty well that this is possible.

[bod1035]

Forgot to add that i dont constantly see my fast players overtaken by much slower players.

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bod1035:

how about fatigue. Anyway your initial rant was that your defender with 20 heading and jumping should not be beaten by i lesser player, i think we have argued the case pretty well that this is possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for you explanation for why FM attributes are completely unrealistic (or rather not realistically represented within the match engine), for and against the player. This does work to everyone’s advantage/disadvantage.

You couldn’t get any more ambiguous than ‘fatigue’. An attribute we cannot even see until the ‘rest’ symbol appears next to the players name. I rotate my players as often as possible. In the best circumstances I will not play someone under 95 fitness. Even if a better play suits. Maybe this is my down fall.

This is why forums exists. To express opinion base on knowledge. If someone has played the 8.0.2 more than I have they I is natural that more intuition regarding the games definitions would be made.

Two months in it’s still a bit of a guessing game to me. This after two years forging my tactics on FM06.

[bod1035]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

Originally posted by bod1035:

how about fatigue. Anyway your initial rant was that your defender with 20 heading and jumping should not be beaten by i lesser player, i think we have argued the case pretty well that this is possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for you explanation for why FM attributes are completely unrealistic (or rather not realistically represented within the match engine), QUOTE]

Please stop putting your words into my mouth its not big or clever.

[bullybeef]

Here something that has just happen in my favour for the youth team Obviously being controlled by my youth coach.

This was whilst taking a look at the goals. Were 4-1 down in the 89th min. We make it 4-2. I take a look at the split view, we’re still playing the same way I have instructed my youth coach to play 4-4-2, but my opponents who are winning have gone to 4-2-4. Strange. I make 4-3 in the 93rd min with 2 mins extra time to play. Now we’re in the 94th min, I have a corner, corner is cleared and played back to the taker and he curls it in to equalise. My coach didn’t once change my formation has I instructed him and due to this maybe didn’t change the actual tactics.

This is what I am struggling to get my head around. The reason I find this fearful is, if it can happen to them, then it can happen to me. My set tactics are 4-4-2, two def mids, and the usually wingers/strikers.

If someone can send the link to show some screen shots I’ll oblige.

Cheers.

[DaveRH]

In addition to the discussion above, the vast majority of which I agree with, you haven't mentioned the most important for a defender: positioning.

If your defender has taken up a bad position as a cross or through ball comes in then it doesn't matter what any of his other stats are - the attacker will get a goal scoring opportunity.

Unfortunately, a 20 in positioning is no guarentee that he will be in the right place either - if his concentration is low or he has been trying to mark someone else then he could easily make that one mistake.

Put succinctly (and earlier in the thread): the stats are not "perfect". Someone with 20 for heading and jumping (disregarding things like bravery and anticipating for a moment) will not ALWAYS win the ball in the air. They will do so the majority of the time though.

[bullybeef]

In answer to your question, Fazio has a 16 for positioning. Yes I can honestly say this maybe a factor in any goals I have conceded in general. He’s well above average though, so I haven’t lost any confidence in him.

I am beginning to realise the match engine/AI is correct, it is just the numerical attributes that are overrated and quite simply unbelievable. All I am asking for is a little simplicity.

When looking for players, if FM tells me that a certain player is quick, I want him to be quick (at least 15 pace and 15 acceleration). Again my 4 main points to finding a generic player is pace, acceleration, determination and work rate. I then filter through for specific abilities based on the position he plays in. I don’t want to see him get outrun by anyone regardless of other mental or physical disadvantages. But alas this does happen more often than not.

Lets get back to basics, please.

[DaveRH]

I undersand your point, but I think that it would make the game TOO simple. The CM2 editions used to have far more cut back stats - I and (judging from this thread) the majority of players prefer things the way they are.

Take your Ronaldo example from earlier. You reckon that 19 dribbling should be enough to make him able to beat his man most of the time. Fair enough.

However, additional stats such as technique, balance and flair make (in real life) Ronaldo the player that he is. Strip those out of the game and what do you have?

Certainly not something as rich and varied as we have now.

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DaveRH:

I undersand your point, but I think that it would make the game TOO simple. The CM2 editions used to have far more cut back stats - I and (judging from this thread) the majority of players prefer things the way they are.

Take your Ronaldo example from earlier. You reckon that 19 dribbling should be enough to make him able to beat his man most of the time. Fair enough.

However, additional stats such as technique, balance and flair make (in real life) Ronaldo the player that he is. Strip those out of the game and what do you have?

Certainly not something as rich and varied as we have now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

The majority of ppl who are quite happy with things are the ppl who have probably overcome some the issues I am having problems with. Remember I am a fan of the game even if I don’t sound like I am. My assistant manager thread I think will help if it is implemented in the right way for future releases.

Again playing devils advocate, why have an dribbling attribute rating of 19 and then have other mental and technical attributes to contradict the latter? Too many different attributes tell the same story and as in Ronaldo’s case his other abilities show:

Technique: 18

Balance : 17

Flair : 20

So his dribbling ability is tremendous and he should be unstoppable, but he isn’t. Is it not possible that they could incorporate one attribute to account for many. Technique could simply include flair, balance and agility etc. Intelligence could include anticipation, composure, concentration and influence.

Why cause confusion for the sake of it? It turns a simple premise into an irritating one. It just feels like developers have throw in red herrings and counter claim for the sake of it.

In the case of the example of Ronaldo, it would be simpler to have is dribbling set to 15 a but have an attribute to represent ‘a big game player.’ This could be ‘match confidence‘ which could incorporate and number of other attributes.

I just think the more isn’t necessarily better.

Also I personally don’t think 1 to 20 for every player in the database is very realistic. Or is it a case that the difference between who has an ability of, lets say 10 for passing, is a league away for someone who has 13?

[isuckatfm]

Althouh I agree with the frustrations it causes and how it sometimes appears that these Player A beating Player B despite the attributes indicating it shouldn't be the case appears to happen far more often in the AI's favour (I use appears in italics because it is probably more to do with my perception and paranoid 'me against the AI' mentality rather than the game 'cheating').

But the problem SI face is that it is a computer game. There needs to be some kind of randomness involved when determining the success or not of a particular outcome based on attributes alone because otherwise the game would become way too predictable.

Whether or not this is a reflection of real life is an entirely valid argument in my opinion but I will say that my general experience of it has been that by and large the better attribute player's abilities will tell in the long run.

To use your example of Ronaldo I've never actually 'virtually managed' him but I have watched full matches playing against him and he is usually very difficult to stop because of those attributes you mentioned. I'm not attempting to play down your experience of it because what you've seen is what you've seen, I am just pointing out my experience of playing against him.

As for the pace issue if you really wanted to be exact about that argument of it not mattering you could by proxy freeze a game at the point where two players start to chase after a ball then measure the distance they cover on screen.

But you need to take into account acceleration, are they going from a standing point, is one of the players back peddling and then having to turn to run in the direction of the ball (which you can't see because of the birds eye view but to me appears to be coded as I often see wingers blitz by my full backs when chasing a ball over the top in a quick transition attack due to my full backs being set to man mark tight and also being on forward runs often), condition etc. etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So his dribbling ability is tremendous and he should be unstoppable, but he isn’t. Is it not possible that they could incorporate one attribute to account for many. Technique could simply include flair, balance and agility etc. Intelligence could include anticipation, composure, concentration and influence.

Why cause confusion for the sake of it? It turns a simple premise into an irritating one. It just feels like developers have throw in red herrings and counter claim for the sake of it.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the intention of all of these attributes is to confuse but is about how the match engine is probably designed and processed. Each of the attributes gets thrown into the relevant calculation when deciding on an outcome and it is this exactness that allows for a more realistic simulation as you can incorporate more real life factors. But whether or not your interpretation of what the real life factors are is the same as SI's is a different matter but since they code the game you just have to accept it for what it is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In the case of the example of Ronaldo, it would be simpler to have is dribbling set to 15 a but have an attribute to represent ‘a big game player.’ This could be ‘match confidence‘ which could incorporate and number of other attributes.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a hidden variable incorporated that is supposed to mirror the 'goes missing when it matters' syndrome. How well it works I can't honestly say since I've never actually looked at it in any kind of detail to have an opinion on it.

As other's have said it is a combination of attributes, morale, condition, fatigue and a bit of randomness that affects the outcome of every little match scenario. But being aware of this does not help in alleviating the frustration it causes when you play the bottom of the league side whose striker hasn't scored in 10 or so matches, has very poor morale yet scores 3 goals from 4 shots on target when he plays your team. Believe me when I tell you that you are not alone in feeling frustrated by these scenarios or having the phrase 'that felt a little too convenient for my liking' pop into your head during any given FM session.

If you can learn to accept that it is a simulation and random things happen without any bias towards the AI you will get more enjoyment from the game. Unfortunately I have yet to accept this which means my blood pressure suffers from playing FM

[Ched]

The thing that you seem to refuse to accept is that the stats on their own don't matter a bit.

Take your example of pace.

Did you consider the players determination? Work Rate? Acceleration? Morale? Fatigue? Stamina? Natural Fitness? Anticipation? amongst many other factors.

Just taking the first one, a player with high pace but low determination MAY not be inclined to run at his maximum pace. Pace is not how quickly the player runs all the time (like in pro evo) it is the MAXIMUM speed a player can achieve in ideal circumstances, IF he wants to.

Underlying all this are the hidden stats, even if all of the players stats are phenomenal, it is entirely possible he has low consistency, which can cause him to not perform anywhere near his stat levels.

And finally, there are also tactics to consider - again if we use the example of 2 players running for the same ball - what if the ball is in an area that is more "attack" minded than your players mentality is? He may go after the ball, but will also be looking to get back in position.

I appreciate this is a lot to consider (which also explains why the game runs as slowly as it does - in ref to another thread) but you can't just say - player x is faster because his pace is higher.

This IMO would be a far too simplistic view and in no way realistic.

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

The thing that you seem to refuse to accept is that the stats on their own don't matter a bit.

Take your example of pace.

Did you consider the players determination? Work Rate? Acceleration? Morale? Fatigue? Stamina? Natural Fitness? Anticipation? amongst many other factors.

Just taking the first one, a player with high pace but low determination MAY not be inclined to run at his maximum pace. Pace is not how quickly the player runs all the time (like in pro evo) it is the MAXIMUM speed a player can achieve in ideal circumstances, IF he wants to.

Underlying all this are the hidden stats, even if all of the players stats are phenomenal, it is entirely possible he has low consistency, which can cause him to not perform anywhere near his stat levels.

And finally, there are also tactics to consider - again if we use the example of 2 players running for the same ball - what if the ball is in an area that is more "attack" minded than your players mentality is? He may go after the ball, but will also be looking to get back in position.

I appreciate this is a lot to consider (which also explains why the game runs as slowly as it does - in ref to another thread) but you can't just say - player x is faster because his pace is higher.

This IMO would be a far too simplistic view and in no way realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’m understanding this now, although this was represented on FM06. If a player was quick, he was quick. However, if your new to FM08 without any prior knowledge and based on the instructions, if player A is 17 pace and acceleration, you would presume he should have a distinctive advantage over a slower player regardless of mental attributes.

Listen ppl, I know there is huge cause and effect plus a little bit of randomness thrown in for good measure on FM. It’s been going on for years on most sims. Maybe I’m just being picky but if the attributes just said, for example, the players speed based on how fast he can run 60 meters (like they do I real training environments) FM shouldn‘t be able to defy the match engines ability to show this on a more consistent level.

The hidden consistency attribute does worry me a little though. I know this is feasible attribute but surely anyone can watch a player for a number of games to discover if he’s consistent or not. How come I never see this in a scouts report? I don’t see why this just cannot be shown. I won’t but a player who has a very low work rate and determination in the same way I would ignore a player who only plays when the sun shines. I’m currently with Liverpool and Torres is very inconsistent. This does reflect how is plays IRL. He’s probably the most consistent striker in Europe at present.

Again, as I mention early, Anelka is a great example. It is shown that his work rate level is 11, not bad but I wouldn’t have him. However he will consistently out pace my players so the AI works in his favour. Torres on the other hand is actually slower on pace (17), but faster acceleration. But it is very rare I see him fly past the opposing slower defender.

I will continue to endeavour.

[Ched]

Scouts do report if a players consistency is VERY high or VERY low. Anywhere in between they don't really comment on. Personally i use average rating as a basic guide, higher average rating, the more good performances etc.

If you are having problems with torres, it could be tactical. I've used him before and he's worked splendidly, but if you play him too deep, he just doesn't perform as well. Try playing around with team mentality and get him on the last defender, his pace should become useful then.

Although claiming he's the most consistent striker in europe is a bit of a stretch, i'll just say he's in good form at the moment.

Also try not to talk about him to the media, he doesn't like it lol.

I can see what you're saying about how you would like pace to equal how fast the player moves, but i'm afraid it isn't going to happen. SI want the game to be a true reflection of RL, and how quickly a player will run is dependant on a lot of factors.

It's things like this that do make the game unforgiving for newcomers, yet i feel they are what sets it apart form the assorted tripe that makes up its competition.

[isuckatfm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The hidden consistency attribute does worry me a little though. I know this is feasible attribute but surely anyone can watch a player for a number of games to discover if he’s consistent or not. How come I never see this in a scouts report? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really on topic but just a little insight into scout mechanics. JPA/JCA determine the accuracy of scout reports. CA of the scout determines how much information they give. If they have a high CA and the player's consistency falls into particular values (can't remember what though) they will tell you in the report that Player A is a consistent or inconsistent performer.

Also consistency impacts on a scouts judgement of a player without them necessarily noting it in the report. Based on some testing I did the general pattern was that for the same scout and same player his consistency attribute affected to what extent the scout recommended him. Of course this may well have been a coincidence of the various players I tested it on or the fact I used FMM to change their attributes.

Whether or not it should be shown regardless of the CA of the scout is debatable.

[LSS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

Is it not possible that they could incorporate one attribute to account for many. Technique could simply include flair, balance and agility etc. Intelligence could include anticipation, composure, concentration and influence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Use the overview (the spiderweb graph).

[lance101]

Quote: I think ppl have completely misunderstood my point. End quote

I don't think you understood that for the game not to have a set outcome from the start, there needs to be randomization at all points... meaning that at any point, there will be a probability of the thing you want happening, or just the exact opposite.. In the case you present, even in the game the probability of the striker winning that header is quite low I'm sure... but it isn't 0, as that wouldn't be realist either! Mistakes happen all the time, and the way of the game coding that, is by introducing randomization.

[Nomis07]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bod1035:

I am sorry but i agree with the people who are saying you are not listening to a word anyone is saying.

What sort of game would this be if a defender with 20 for heading could not be challenged, it would not happen like this in real life so it should not happen in this game.

The game is a simulation of the real thing after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Logic, are you mad! Get outta town.

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bod1035:

I am sorry but i agree with the people who are saying you are not listening to a word anyone is saying.

What sort of game would this be if a defender with 20 for heading could not be challenged, it would not happen like this in real life so it should not happen in this game.

The game is a simulation of the real thing after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Logic, are you mad! Get outta town. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

bullybeef wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Listen ppl, I know there is huge cause and effect plus a little bit of randomness thrown in for good measure on FM. It’s been going on for years on most sims. Maybe I’m just being picky but if the attributes just said, for example, the players speed based on how fast he can run 60 meters (like they do I real training environments) FM shouldn‘t be able to defy the match engines ability to show this on a more consistent level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh....you've found a friend, bless .If you have read my above point, I've actually stated that I understand what FM portrays to be. I am playing devils advocate (you do know what this means??) Just in cased you don‘t:

1. opponent for the sake of it: somebody who argues about something merely to provoke discussion. However, it doesn’t mean it couldn’t be simplified for new comers to the game.

No one can admit to be completely satisfied, because you learn you cannot suit everyone all of the time. This is called opinion. If any other game genre had to played and tested for a number of months before you can play it competitively, it would never leave the shelves.

FM works in the fact no one really knows what actually works and what causes what, and again, this is ambiguity. The lack of knowledge makes us mere mortals want to know more. If you’re reaction to my discussion is because you never get frustrated with FM you must be a women. I don’t know any chap who doesn’t lose it with an injury time goal.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Get outta town. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is your reaction to a discussion and attempting to force YOUR opinons on others, I think you also don‘t understand what the meaning of forum is above everything else.

I will pray for you, my son.

[Nomis07]

Bullybeef my patience is growing thin and my interest waning.

"Get outta town" was meant a witty repartee with bod1035, rather than an insult to yourself. You really shouldn't be so precious.

Your arguments are infantile and lack progression, but i'll do my best to keep you informed.

I am not trying to force my opinions on others and I defiantely agree that I have been frustrated in games and lost my temper with FM. In fact i'm not really arguing with a majority of what has been said on these forums, my argument is with the suggestion that it is a "bug" or "cheat". I welcome the debate and have contributed to many others, but fact of the matter is I think your wrong and as you so politely infered, forums are for discussion both positive or negative.

I apologise in advance if you find this reply snide but it's hard to ignore;

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ahhh....you've found a friend, bless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you’re reaction to my discussion is because you never get frustrated with FM you must be a women. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would laugh at these rather childish and pathetic insults but it's just hard to ignore a person who is willing to use such derogatory language and then in the next breath appear holier than thou re: forum discussion and protocall.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If this is your reaction to a discussion and attempting to force YOUR opinons on others, I think you also don‘t understand what the meaning of forum is above everything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Bullybeef my patience is growing thin and my interest waning.

"Get outta town" was meant a witty repartee with bod1035, rather than an insult to yourself. You really shouldn't be so precious.

Your arguments are infantile and lack progression, but i'll do my best to keep you informed.

I am not trying to force my opinions on others and I defiantely agree that I have been frustrated in games and lost my temper with FM. In fact i'm not really arguing with a majority of what has been said on these forums, my argument is with the suggestion that it is a "bug" or "cheat". I welcome the debate and have contributed to many others, but fact of the matter is I think your wrong and as you so politely infered, forums are for discussion both positive or negative.

I apologise in advance if you find this reply snide but it's hard to ignore;

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ahhh....you've found a friend, bless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you’re reaction to my discussion is because you never get frustrated with FM you must be a women. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would laugh at these rather childish and pathetic insults but it's just hard to ignore a person who is willing to use such derogatory language and then in the next breath appear holier than thou re: forum discussion and protocall.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If this is your reaction to a discussion and attempting to force YOUR opinons on others, I think you also don‘t understand what the meaning of forum is above everything else. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do beg your pardon if you are insulted, but if you have read my posts, you must understand that I am a new-comer to 8.0.2. I have only been playing FM since 2005 and it took me a while just to become passionate about coloured dots moving around the screen.

Remember the reason for this thread is because regarding I am toiling with another ‘update’ of FM. If all you can do to help me is be destructive rather than constructive with your comments than your just being argumentative. Remember this game changes its application every year, and going off an awful lot of other newcomers on here who are struggling to cope with the AI, I’m not the only one. If you treat every newcomer with this much contempt that questions FM, should I not defend myself?

If you don’t what to help me or say something constructive, why argue over an opinion. You’ve obviously a season pro, a CM and FM gamer for nearly ten years, you’ve got 7 years experience on me when it comes down to PC gaming and the best you can say to help is:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Get outta town. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This caused my reaction, I apologise. An apology from yourself would obviously be forced so I think it is best to agree to disagree.

[Nomis07]

Bullybeef,

Time to call a truce.

I am in no way a seasoned pro and it takes me considerable time to get my head round each new version released. If i'm totally honest, downloaded tactics was what eventually helped me do so, although I wouldn't do that these days.

As for "Get outta town", I won't apologise because it was not aimed at you it was aimed at bod1035 and you have misinterpreted it as being cheeky with you when it was being jokey with bod1035.

Im not trying to treat you with contempt and I am more than willing to help any newcomer if I can, but I honestly don't know how i'm supposed to help you. Sorry but that's the truth.

Your problem seems to be that you are unsure about the attributes and how relevant they are and it has been well documented in this thread that 20 is the best a player can have but as with real life it does not necessarily mean that this player will produce an excellent cross every time he tries. The game is meant to mimic reality and because of this it's going to have discrepencies, as you have said yourself, but there is no way for us to counteract this just as a RL manager would be unable to counteract a poor cross by his winger.

The only advice that I can give you is perserver with what you are doing and have a look at the good player/tactics forums. To be honest I doubt you are doing anything wrong on the player front and the problems you face are based on player inadequacy.

An example is as follows;

I'm Bayern Munich and in the first season Luca Toni was a goal machine scoring 28 in that season, the next season he scores 4 all season. Now that's just lack of form and what can I do about that....nothing. All I can do is have adequate back up to deal with the situation i.e. at least 2 quality players for each position so if Toni isn't doing the goods Kuranyi comes in.

Re other teams players playing above the odds, it works in our favour too. I signed a left winger in my first year who's attributes were just ok and he had a blinder of a season despite not really being top notch, these things happen. It happends IRL too look at Michael Ricketts, James Beattie, Louis Saha the list goes on and on.

[bod1035]

Bullybeef the "get outta town" was just a humerous exchange with myself.

Nomis07, yes i am sorry i forgot logic has no place on these boards

[bullybeef]

I agree lets start again with a truce.

My biggest problem is trying to get the best out of Torres, up front.

I have 4 strikers, Aguero, a German call Kiebling and youngster Kronaveter, all of which have a better goal scoring ratio than Torres, even the youngster Kronaveter. He’s prolific, however I only play him against the lesser teams when I’m resting players. In fact I played by mistake in the league cup final and he scored in a 3-1 win over Newcastle. I have tried using him as a target man and setting through balls. Can’t get him scoring has consistently as he should. He’s only scored 3 in his last ten. It could be worse, but well below his standards. Kiebling has 8 in his last 10. Prolific or what. Saying that, Aguero’s only got 4 in his last ten.

I am getting to grips will things but I’m still not on a level playing field with the AI. Just feels went it wants to it can pop goals in at will and if I do make changes it’s just feels it‘s ‘letting me off’ for being observant.

Yes, I am paranoid. 30 years of gaming does that to ppl!!

[DaveRH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

I have tried using him as a target man and setting through balls. Can’t get him scoring has consistently as he should. He’s only scored 3 in his last ten. It could be worse, but well below his standards. Kiebling has 8 in his last 10. Prolific or what. Saying that, Aguero’s only got 4 in his last ten.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd suggest having a good at the tactics forum. You should find assistance there. Personally I found that I got the best out of Torres by giving his some creative freedom and allowing him to run with the ball. Nothing else. Also, he is a confidence player. Dropping him repeatedly isn't likely to help you.

[Nomis07]

Like I said, patience is a necessity. Players have bad seasons and who is to say he won't bang in a hatfull next season. My main striker only got 8 league goals in his first 2 season, now with a settled team, settled tactic etc in his 4th season he has 23 in March.

As for the AI scoring any time. You have to counteract their change in tactics etc. Here's some hope for you though, in my first seaon I won the league on the last day and conceded 0.9 goals a game. The next season I was conceding only 0.5 per game, season three 0.8 and season four 0.6. As your tactic and team improves so do your results and too many people are put off by a poor first season when perserverance can bring lots of success.

[chopper99]

Unfortunately I can't really help you if you're determined that the problems you're facing have nothing to do with tactics and have no interest in hearing the word 'tactics' used.

Suffice to say that this is an unfortunate stance to take as it undoubtably is down to something you're doing, be it tactics, team talks, media interaction, training etc. The fact is that if I had Torres in my team he would without a doubt be prolific. I suspect that your tactical set up does not get the best out of Torres.

A couple of other points:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fatboyjohnmulhern:

fm does not take height into consideration </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not strictly true. Height, while not classed as an attribute and therefore not used in match engine calculations, is apparently used to determine a players jumping ability. So a tall player is more likely to have a higher jumping attribute than a smaller player. Meaning you're very unlikely to get a 5'2" player with a high jumping attribute.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> You're supposed to be pitting your wits against DIFFERENT managers, of different abilities, tactical knowledge and personality, to say nothing of basic differences in intelligence.

FM is more like playing a collective consciousness, where all the managers use the same tactics as soon as they need to get out of a jam, and they can all see through your tactics regardless of their ability and the ability of their team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again this is not true. It certainly doesn't happen to me anyway, AI manager can't suddenly see through my tactics whenever they want and when they do it's usually the tougher teams that do this too me.

Kipfizh's AI experiment thread shows that manager quality defenitely makes a difference in the game, better AI managers mean more successful AI teams.

Back to the OP's point. I think it's the tactical side of the game that's a little to ambiguous for new players to get to grips with. I don't want to see the tactical side change, I just want the user to have more tools at their disposal so they can analyse matches and tactics more fully, recieve feedback from staff and basically have an eisier time identifying weaknesses in their tactics that may not otherwise be apparent. From there they'll need to use their own managerial skills to fix those weaknesses.

I don't however feel there's anything at all wrong with how attributes work. Simplifying them would be a massive step in the wrong direction imo.

[bullybeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I just want the user to have more tools at their disposal so they can analyse matches and tactics more fully, recieve feedback from staff and basically have an eisier time identifying weaknesses in their tactics that may not otherwise be apparent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please could you take a look at my thread regarding the Assistant managers role (if you already haven’t done):

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4302052783

If could add your suggestions and your backing hopefully this idea could be passed over to the developers to hopefully be added to maybe FM09.

Maybe it would help the less tactically gift of us.

[Joor]

Stamina is a very important attribute in Fm08.

Ever wonder why its always in the last 10 mins your defence plays like **** ?

The AI goes all attack and bring in 2 fresh strikers.

Even tho my central defenders are faster and stronger - the opponents forward manage to score..and why ? condition!

Patch notes;

- Increased hit on attributes caused by low condition

[Joor]

..and thats why the AI's striker with 13 pace can outrun your 17 pace defender.

[chopper99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bullybeef:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I just want the user to have more tools at their disposal so they can analyse matches and tactics more fully, recieve feedback from staff and basically have an eisier time identifying weaknesses in their tactics that may not otherwise be apparent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please could you take a look at my thread regarding the Assistant managers role (if you already haven’t done):

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4302052783

If could add your suggestions and your backing hopefully this idea could be passed over to the developers to hopefully be added to maybe FM09.

Maybe it would help the less tactically gift of us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts on improving staff

My ideas for staff improvement can be found in the above thread which I started a couple of months ago in the hope that improvements could be made in this area for FM09.

[bullybeef]

Just got a decent result vs. Barcelona in the 2nd leg champs cup at Anfield. I needed a 0-0 or just to score and stop them from scoring. A big ask against them. Any how, managed to hold them off playing deep, direct and counterattack with a normal mentality, Slowing pulling players back has then game went on and turning up the time wasting. Slowly the clocked ticked by, we still hadn’t scored and they continued to push on. 80 mins, Stevie G was cream-crackered (69 cond) so I had to bring him off…for a central def. 5 at the back now. Injury time and a we broke down the left, ball was played inside and torres finished with his second attempt.

The fact that I did mastermind this (all be it with good def and goalkeeping) made me realise I could get a big result when needed. But I was still left with a sense that it could have gone either way. This gives us an immense amount of realism for a computer game, but because of its use of the laws of averages, even if I bought the 11 best players in the world, it would still be a level playing field and I would have to play cautiously in certain games.

Arsene Wenger would have real trouble if he played this game. He likes his Arsenal team to play one way. A very effective way but not a very cautious playing style.

I can only feel you can win games if you select the right tactics but it may not be pretty.

[Nomis07]

One thing i've always said about CM/FM is, never try to play the way you would want to your team to play IRL, because you'll get destroyed. Essentially I have to create a tactic to beat the AI and play to my squads strength, whilst this may be nice football and good to watch, it is not necessarily the way I would play if I was a real manager.

Re: buying the best 11 players, Chelsea basically tried something similar and probably have the strongest squad out of the big 3 but are definately 3rd out of 3 and a majority of Chelsea fans would argue that the reason for that is tactics.

[chopper99]

I disagree with the Wenger comment. Few managers play attacking all the time and I guarentee Wenger would be looking to take a more cautious approach against Barcelona in the Second leg of a Champions League game than he would at home to Derby in the Premier League.

Thing is he's a world class manager and can play a cautious style that still allows for quick attacking breaks, you're not and are still learning

Stick with it, it sounds like you're on the right track. The tactics and training forum has some excellent threads if you're interested in learning more about the tactical side of the game.

[bod1035]

There is not one manager today who will not ajust his tactics against different teams/style of play etc, even if us mere mortals can not see it all the time.

Anyway persavere and it will definatley fall into place.

[isuckatfm]

Just to return to one of the earlier points about pace and acceleration I had intended doing a little test but forgot. Anyway I just did it and what I saw was that the acceleration/pace gradient isn't as large as people might assume it to be.

To test set up a game managing Arsenal and Man Utd. Set both to the default 442 normal tactic and arrange a friendly. Just before the match assign all of one team pace/acceleration of 1 (5 in FM Modifier) and the other team 20 (100 in FM Modifier). Doing it just before the match ensures their attributes don't get adjusted up/down to reflect their CA.

You will see a difference but it isn't that large considering the players are on both extremes of the scale. Just from looking at this test match it is clear that the difference between say 16 and 13 might be difficult to perceive.