Mechanics of Manager Reputation

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

Just finished the season, and here is the findings:

2 games before end of season:

1983, 2492, 1576 and club rep 2793.

Gained promotion, finishing 2nd:

2412, 3344, 2010 and club rep 3899.

Increases were approx: 425, 850, 435 and 1100.

What can be concluded?

a) Promotion does indead increase manager rep far more than just doing well in the league.

b) It is calculated at the same day the league is finished, i.e. when the last game is played.

c) Current rep increased in absolute terms at approx the twice the rate of Home and and World.

d) Percentage increases were approx 25%, 33%, 33% and 40% though.

e) Just playing games seem to have minor effect, I only gained around 50, 50, 150 points over the course of the whole season. Club rep increase was only 40 as well. It seems final position is the crucial thing here.

I'm going to replay the last couple of games and "fix" the games so I finish 3rd and 4th respectively and check the results. I can't finish 1st however, the run-away league leaders had basically won it 10 games before the league was over.

First of all thanks a lot ZJ! It's great to finally have someone make serious contributions to this article. Contributions such as yours seriously speed up the project and increases the chance of it being fully completed a great deal.

The reputation increases seems to follow a 1-2-1 pattern. I believe it's likely that the bonus you got for the promotion was 425, 850 and 425. The game seems to favor such patterns, as the starting reputations should clearly point out. Unless you got spectacular results in your last two games I believe it's safe to assume that those numbers were the bonus.

As for conclusion B I believe that it's actually connected to the inbox message you get at the end of the season, telling you that you got promoted. Which you would get at the last day of the league, so you are absolutely right of course.

As for conclusion E I also think you are on to something, but it seems to be closely related to odds and expectations related to your club. My team has seriously overachieved this season, and with just a few matches to go I have seen increases of 129, 124 and 136, which are a bit higher than the numbers you got, but not much compared with the bonus values. When you compare these numbers to the bonus ones it seems like I might have overestimated the significance of individual games. International games might turn out to be a different story though.

Originally posted by ZJ:

Ok, some new information. Quit my job and had at the time rep of 2412 (home), 3236 (current), 2010 (world).

During the next 3 months, I applied for 29 different jobs, club rep varying from 1500 to 6000. 2 of them was internationals.

This happened:

a) During those 3 months my reputation did not change at all.

b) I only got 1 job, which was one of the international ones (it had rep 5550) - Cameroon.

c) Upon getting that job, reputation did not change.

d) Paid particular interest to Russian jobs (where my reputation had been built) and Swedish (my main nationality). I was turned down for Russian jobs at clubs with rep of 1700, 2100, 2201, 2856 as well as many with higher rep than myself.

I was also turned down for 2 Swedish jobs at clubs with rep lower than all mine (1500 and 1900).

Conclusions:

1) National teams have their own rules again.

2) Turned down for jobs with lower rep than what I had in both Sweden and Russia - Either there are more complicated rules (with regards to Home/Current and World) than expected or the manager they hired instead had higher rep than me. That is next on the list to check.

3) Rep does not decrease (in short run). Might be that it takes a longer period before it deteriorates.

4) Getting a job does not in itself change reputation.

If anyone have any suggestions to other things to look at, let me know.

Hm, interesting that you were not able to get any of those jobs. The most likely explanation I can think of is indeed that there were other applicants with higher rep than you. It would be interesting to compare your stats with those of the managers that actually got the job to see if we can find a pattern. I expect I will go job hunting soon myself, so I'll keep my eyes open. As for some of your other observations you are right that reputation does not decrease as a function of time, as I believe proven by one of my previous experiments, and that rep does not change by getting a new job.

Originally posted by GreenEagle16:

Are managerial stats taken into account. For instance, would a club who prefers to play an attack based 4-5-1 be more inclined to hire you if you are known for an attacking and playing a 4-5-1? Or would a club who is cheap or money strapped be more inclined to hire you if you have a 20 for Financial Control?

If this is the case, which I hope it is as otherwise I cant see a point for these stats, then figuring out what exactly governs being hired for a job would be near impossible.

Manager stats are purely cosmetical. Think of them as your scoreboard. CA might have some significance though, but I'll be damned if I know how the game calculates it.

[ZJ]

As for some of your other observations you are right that reputation does not decrease as a function of time, as I believe proven by one of my previous experiments, and that rep does not change by getting a new job.

Think someone above questioned it as you did it with managers with starting reputation, not one that had been gained, i.e. that you can only lose the rep you previously gained. Some logic to this as you can definately lose it by losing games. As said though, doesn't seem like it changes with time.

First of all thanks a lot ZJ! It's great to finally have someone make serious contributions to this article. Contributions such as yours seriously speed up the project and increases the chance of it being fully completed a great deal

No problem, I just keep at it while I'm playing normally and when I bored or studying I just let it run by itself to check something.

The reputation increases seems to follow a 1-2-1 pattern. I believe it's likely that the bonus you got for the promotion was 425, 850 and 425. The game seems to favor such patterns, as the starting reputations should clearly point out. Unless you got spectacular results in your last two games I believe it's safe to assume that those numbers were the bonus.

As for conclusion B I believe that it's actually connected to the inbox message you get at the end of the season, telling you that you got promoted. Which you would get at the last day of the league, so you are absolutely right of course.

As for conclusion E I also think you are on to something, but it seems to be closely related to odds and expectations related to your club. My team has seriously overachieved this season, and with just a few matches to go I have seen increases of 129, 124 and 136, which are a bit higher than the numbers you got, but not much compared with the bonus values. When you compare these numbers to the bonus ones it seems like I might have overestimated the significance of individual games. International games might turn out to be a different story though.

Agreed.

Hm, interesting that you were not able to get any of those jobs. The most likely explanation I can think of is indeed that there were other applicants with higher rep than you. It would be interesting to compare your stats with those of the managers that actually got the job to see if we can find a pattern.

Thats next on my list, going to do the same thing again, go on holiday for 3 months with the "apply to all jobs" thing and then check the Rep and CA/PA of the people they hire instead. I think I can use FMM to up my Rep and then repeat the experiment.

Got some more results as well, but will add them in a new post for clarity.

[ZJ]

Ok, here is some results that confuse me.

I redid the last 4 games of the season I got promoted and fixed the results so I finished 3rd and 5th (due to the way the Russian league calculates seperate order its really hard for me to finish 4th as I have to rely on other teams to lose/draw).

Starting reps was 1983, 2492, 1576 and 2793 (club).

Finishing 5th: 1981, 2489, 1572 and 2876.

Finishing 3rd: 1983, 2492, 1576 and 2894.

Finishing 2nd (from previous post): 2412, 3344, 2010 and 3899.

As for conclusion E I also think you are on to something, but it seems to be closely related to odds and expectations related to your club. My team has seriously overachieved this season, and with just a few matches to go I have seen increases of 129, 124 and 136, which are a bit higher than the numbers you got, but not much compared with the bonus values. When you compare these numbers to the bonus ones it seems like I might have overestimated the significance of individual games. International games might turn out to be a different story though.

Did you mention that the Norwegian League and a rep of 7 while the the Russian 2nd had 4? Your numbers aren't completely unreasonable then as your results would almost be twice as much mine if we take into account that you are overachieving and that I had a really bad last 1/3 of the season. Do you have International games as in your club in euro cups or did you means International games as in between international teams?

Anyway, back to the results from before.

This is what slightly confuses me as finishing 3rd or 5th didn't make much difference at all, and it was an enormous difference between that and finishing 2nd (promotion). I was expected to finish 15th. However, in my first season when I finished 3rd after being expected to finish 22nd (last) I got a 700 point rep increase. This time it was only 100, but its not really to scale. Being 19 pos better than expected gave 700, being 12/10 gave roughly 100.

Could it have something to do with pre-season odds as well? I've saved them from this season but can't remember them from the previous seasons. I'd assume they were very high.

Some questions:

a) Maybe club rep increase for position in league is relative to the level of your rep? I.e. a lower rep club gets a more increased rep? This could be the game evening out things and that they have a rough guideline for what a 3rd positioned team in a certain league should have and then they just give you an increase to take you roughly to that value? Most teams in the Russian 2nd have reps between 1500-4000 (excluding recently relegated teams) with the upper end being the usual contenders for promotion.

From a game perspective it makes sense, as a position gives you an increase in rep that takes you to a certain level, which enables you to get players at that level to stay there and then you have to over-achieve with those players to increase your rep again.

b) Your work seem to indicate that match odds factor into manager rep, maybe season odds factors in to club rep? Worth exploring.

c) Does club rep decrease over time and with worse positions? Instinctively it should do but it can be due to the bad results that take them there in the first place. Think Kipfizh's experiment could shed some light on this with regards to Man U being in the Championship. I'll go and track that down when I have some time. I'd assume they haven't changed that much between 07 and 08 in this respect.

Conclusions:

Getting promoted is very important to increase your rep

If you just got promoted, it may be that every position you gain will increase your club rep further. If you been in a division for a long time, chances are your rep increase has "flattened" out and only over-achieving can increase it. This also means your manager rep becomes fairly static. This means the game doesn't recognise that you've taken a bad team and done well with them up until they hit the glass-ceiling, i.e. it can't differentiate if its the team (financial, rep, comparative competition in the league) or you that is responsible which explains why you can be doing really well with a team, decide to leave them but then only get jobs in the bottom divisions in other leagues.

This last statement needs more evidence though, especially in context to what governs hiring of managers.

Keep up the good work!

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

Thats next on my list, going to do the same thing again, go on holiday for 3 months with the "apply to all jobs" thing and then check the Rep and CA/PA of the people they hire instead. I think I can use FMM to up my Rep and then repeat the experiment.

Got some more results as well, but will add them in a new post for clarity.

Here are some numbers you might find interesting. With reputation values of 2760, 2733 and 1402 I applied for the Nigerian National job. I didn't get it, but the manager that did was a Nigerian with values of 2400, 2400 and 720. All of my numbers were greater than his, so logically there should be no way for him to get the job over me unless teams favor managers of the same nationality.

This is where the neat stuff comes in. Remember my theory that managers use Home rep for teams of the same nationality and World rep for all other teams? Previous tests with the Nigerian national team has shown that my chances of getting that job was a function of current rep and world rep combined. This obviously doesn't change anything with my numbers as the sum of my values (4135) are greater than his (3120). However, if teams favor domestic managers by allowing them to use the Home rep value instead of world rep we get the following numbers: 4135 < 4800.

Neat huh!

[D-Wight]

what a rabbling piece of ****

win trophies and do well in league= better rep and better job opps

summed up in 2 mins thinking rather than a ******* science textbook on it

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

Do you have International games as in your club in euro cups or did you means International games as in between international teams?

I meant International teams but both will do, as they are the most reputable matches you can play.

Originally posted by ZJ:

a) Maybe club rep increase for position in league is relative to the level of your rep? I.e. a lower rep club gets a more increased rep? This could be the game evening out things and that they have a rough guideline for what a 3rd positioned team in a certain league should have and then they just give you an increase to take you roughly to that value? Most teams in the Russian 2nd have reps between 1500-4000 (excluding recently relegated teams) with the upper end being the usual contenders for promotion.

From a game perspective it makes sense, as a position gives you an increase in rep that takes you to a certain level, which enables you to get players at that level to stay there and then you have to over-achieve with those players to increase your rep again.

Hm, the 700 point increase is certainly intriguing. Sounds to me like the game calculated a league average and tried to adjust you to it. If that's the case it would help keep the leagues stable over time. It does not look like the game tried to give you 3rd place rep, as then you would probably be expected to be 3rd again and leagues could swing dramatically from season to season. Maybe you get the 100 bonus for finishing in the upper half of the table.

As I understand the odds they are derived from reputation, and a few other factors, so odds and rep will always be closely related.

Originally posted by ZJ: Getting promoted is very important to increase your rep

Glad we proved that you need to get promoted to get a rep boost, should be interesting to see how this works out in the top divisions. Probably related to European qualifications if I were to hazard an educated guess.

I have some more result data to compliment yours btw...

[Morridin]

Another season ended, and time for another update.

Experimental season

For this experiment I did some result manipulation in order to uncover more functions of the Manager reputation system. By manipulating the results sufficiently for my team to win both the Norwegian first division (Rep 7) and the Norwegian Cup (Rep 9) I am happy to report that I'm now able to shed some new light on hypothesis 1, 2 and 3.

Hypothesis 1. You get a boost to reputation after you play your last match of a league or a tournament. (Falsified)

You do indeed get a boost to your reputation if you either Win or get promoted in your current league. This boost does not necessarily come at the last day of the season however. You get it with the message that your team has won the league or got promoted. By winning the Norwegian first division my Reputation scores increased from 2765, 2738 and 1410 to 4061, 4034 and 2190, which makes for increases of 1296, 1296 and 780. To get a boost from a Cup or tournament you apparently have to reach the final. By losing the semi-final of the Norwegian Cup I did not get any reputation, but by losing the final my rep scores increased by 442, 441 and 231. By winning the Cup I got increases of 757, 756 and 463.

Hypothesis 2. Manager reputation increases according to league result at end of season. (Verified, given that the result is sufficiently good.)

You have to either win or get promoted in the lower divisions, premiere division haven't been tested yet.

Hypothesis 3. The size of these reputation increases depend on the reputation of the league. (Falsified?)

I would say that this was falsified for certain except there is a genuine possibility that the League increases I got was the sum of a winning boost and a promotion boost.

As for other observations I got a small rep bonus of 15, 10 and 0 from a manager of the month award.

Over the duration of an overachieving season my scores had only increased by 134, 129 and 144 (with only two matches left of the season), so it appears that I have overestimated the importance of individual matches. It follows from this that Lower league managers will have to win stuff, or at least get close, in order to advance up the food chain in any reasonable time frame. This means that when looking for a new job you should prioritize newly relegated teams, if you are in a position to chose, as they usually have better reputation than their opposing teams, can therefore attract better players and thus increase your chances of winning silverware and advancing up the food chain. It also follows from this that career vise it might be a good idea to resign your job if your team gets promoted and go back to a reputable team in your last division, rather than fighting tooth and nail over several years to establish yourself in your new league. Most players will probably not want to do this, as the prospect of playing at the same low level another year is not very pleasing, but not doing so can seriously hamper your career progression, as your first few seasons in the new division are likely to be a waste of time better spent at another club.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by D-Wight:

what a rabbling piece of ****

win trophies and do well in league= better rep and better job opps

summed up in 2 mins thinking rather than a ******* science textbook on it

If you can't be bothered to read it properly please abstain from posting.

[ZJ]

Originally posted by D-Wight:

what a rabbling piece of ****

win trophies and do well in league= better rep and better job opps

summed up in 2 mins thinking rather than a ******* science textbook on it

Looks like we have a real genius on our hands here...

I guess with that logic you'd have to ask yourself why there is a vast science in management and strategy/tactics (and a lot of other sciences for that matter) within football when all you have to do is outscore the opponent every game...

Simple minds think simple thoughts. It does indeed work, but it may not always be accurate

[ZJ]

Here are some numbers you might find interesting. With reputation values of 2760, 2733 and 1402 I applied for the Nigerian National job. I didn't get it, but the manager that did was a Nigerian with values of 2400, 2400 and 720. All of my numbers were greater than his, so logically there should be no way for him to get the job over me unless teams favor managers of the same nationality.

This is where the neat stuff comes in. Remember my theory that managers use Home rep for teams of the same nationality and World rep for all other teams? Previous tests with the Nigerian national team has shown that my chances of getting that job was a function of current rep and world rep combined. This obviously doesn't change anything with my numbers as the sum of my values (4135) are greater than his (3120). However, if teams favor domestic managers by allowing them to use the Home rep value instead of world rep we get the following numbers: 4135 < 4800.

Neat huh!

Makes sense in more ways than one. Teams will obviously favour own nationality managers and with this system it is more marked at lower levels as well (as the percentage difference between current rep and home rep decreases as they get larger). Makes shifting leagues/countries harder which makes IRL sense as well.

Had another thought about international (and normal ones for that matter) jobs as well. At the beginning of the game, there is a vast base of managers/potential managers which means there is lots of potential candidates for each job. Obviously the DB for Africa and weird nations are smaller in terms of available managers which means you are much more likely to win it despite the country's rep being much higher than yours. For normal jobs, there will nearly always be a candidate with the right nationality and thus higher rep (as established by you above) in the beginning as I've counted atleast 40 unemployed Russian managers just in the initial database. This will obviously decrease as times goes on as "preset" candidates such as former internationals and current managers vanishes out of the DB on account of them being older.

Hm, the 700 point increase is certainly intriguing. Sounds to me like the game calculated a league average and tried to adjust you to it. If that's the case it would help keep the leagues stable over time. It does not look like the game tried to give you 3rd place rep, as then you would probably be expected to be 3rd again and leagues could swing dramatically from season to season. Maybe you get the 100 bonus for finishing in the upper half of the table.

As I understand the odds they are derived from reputation, and a few other factors, so odds and rep will always be closely related.

I wouldn't say it tries to give me a rep for a 3rd position, so something like a league average sounds like a good bet. Could be based on quartiles as well, i.e. it gave me a rep bonus to take me towards the average of the top 4-5-6 depending on how many teams there are in the league and it applies that downwards in each quartile.

This could apply to the 100 bonus as well, i.e. this time it was simply lesser of a difference. I don't think its likely that the game tried to give me 3rd place rep, but I wouldn't discount it as you have to take into account that all other teams get relative bonuses in addition to teams with larger reps just got relegated.

Game odds is definately based (mainly) on reputation, when I took over the team they had rep 1000 and no players. I was 50-1 underdogs in pretty much every game but my team wasn't that bad at all and I was never in danger of relegation. The team was a newly promoted one from a non-playable league I'd assume. An interesting side-question to this is whether the computer changes their game plan according to this or does it use something else?

I have an upcoming test for season odds, I saved it at the beginning of this season (think I'm 2000-1) and if I can survive in the top division, next season I can check my increase in rep over season and see how it effected the odds. This could also be interesting because if you can take a season and have fairly static rep and your odds changes to the next season, we can say for sure there is something else in the formula.

Glad we proved that you need to get promoted to get a rep boost, should be interesting to see how this works out in the top divisions. Probably related to European qualifications if I were to hazard an educated guess.

Yeah, I'd say the same. Makes logical sense in terms of how it corresponds to the real world as well (European competition is a factor in getting players to sign for you).

Hypothesis 1. You get a boost to reputation after you play your last match of a league or a tournament. (Falsified)

You do indeed get a boost to your reputation if you either Win or get promoted in your current league. This boost does not necessarily come at the last day of the season however. You get it with the message that your team has won the league or got promoted. By winning the Norwegian first division my Reputation scores increased from 2765, 2738 and 1410 to 4061, 4034 and 2190, which makes for increases of 1296, 1296 and 780. To get a boost from a Cup or tournament you apparently have to reach the final. By losing the semi-final of the Norwegian Cup I did not get any reputation, but by losing the final my rep scores increased by 442, 441 and 231. By winning the Cup I got increases of 757, 756 and 463.

Good thinking about the final, I wouldn't have thought to check that. Wonder if the same is true for CL for example? Was just going to ask something stupid, but just figured it out myself. Your Home and Current increases are the same because you are managing in your native country while I'm not .

As for other observations I got a small rep bonus of 15, 10 and 0 from a manager of the month award.

Over the duration of an overachieving season my scores had only increased by 134, 129 and 144 (with only two matches left of the season), so it appears that I have overestimated the importance of individual matches. It follows from this that Lower league managers will have to win stuff, or at least get close, in order to advance up the food chain in any reasonable time frame. This means that when looking for a new job you should prioritize newly relegated teams, if you are in a position to chose, as they usually have better reputation than their opposing teams, can therefore attract better players and thus increase your chances of winning silverware and advancing up the food chain. It also follows from this that career vise it might be a good idea to resign your job if your team gets promoted and go back to a reputable team in your last division, rather than fighting tooth and nail over several years to establish yourself in your new league. Most players will probably not want to do this, as the prospect of playing at the same low level another year is not very pleasing, but not doing so can seriously hamper your career progression, as your first few seasons in the new division are likely to be a waste of time better spent at another club.

Good to know about MoM award, could be worth checking if the increase is larger in higher divisions. Same probably applies for player rep.

You are right about newly relegated teams and while it may make tactical sense to resign and try to get another job in a lower division, its very hard to know which teams are reputable or not if you don't use a 3rd party program. You only have the information screen to go on really. Two questions however, if you get a team promoted and then relegated the next season and then promoted again what would happen (assuming you don't lose rep when you get relegated which is something that we need to find out as some point. Could easily be checked with a computer team next time we finish a season):

a) Your manager rep increases but club rep stay static.

b) Both manager rep and club rep increase again.

c) Manager stay the same, club increases.

d) Neither increases.

If a) or b) is true, it could be worth bouncing up and down between divisions as it will give you the comparatively best rep increases as opposed to fighting a long trying to establish yourself in the higher division. c) or d) seems unlikely and not very logical so I'd discount those. Could however be that the increase is smaller the next time you win it. Makes sense that the first cup/league win is more important for your rep than the 2nd or 3rd.

[donnie]

how to become a legendary manager?

[phnompenhandy]

Originally posted by donnie:

how to become a legendary manager?

Die?

Nah, seriously, you'd have to be successful for decades like SAF, I'd imagine.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

Had another thought about international (and normal ones for that matter) jobs as well. At the beginning of the game, there is a vast base of managers/potential managers which means there is lots of potential candidates for each job. Obviously the DB for Africa and weird nations are smaller in terms of available managers which means you are much more likely to win it despite the country's rep being much higher than yours. For normal jobs, there will nearly always be a candidate with the right nationality and thus higher rep (as established by you above) in the beginning as I've counted atleast 40 unemployed Russian managers just in the initial database. This will obviously decrease as times goes on as "preset" candidates such as former internationals and current managers vanishes out of the DB on account of them being older.

I've been thinking the same thing about the African national teams and it makes too much sense not to have something too it. This would mean that Marocco (highest ranked African team I think) could be great a great way to increase your reputation early. As for the database of domestic managers I'm not so sure it will decrease as time goes on. Remember that you sometimes get new managers when players retire from the game.

Originally posted by ZJ:

I have an upcoming test for season odds, I saved it at the beginning of this season (think I'm 2000-1) and if I can survive in the top division, next season I can check my increase in rep over season and see how it effected the odds. This could also be interesting because if you can take a season and have fairly static rep and your odds changes to the next season, we can say for sure there is something else in the formula.

This could more easily be tested by saving the game just before your game is updated to the new season and manipulating the club rep.

Originally posted by ZJ:

You are right about newly relegated teams and while it may make tactical sense to resign and try to get another job in a lower division, its very hard to know which teams are reputable or not if you don't use a 3rd party program. You only have the information screen to go on really.

This is where the media prediction you can find in any team information screen is finally useful for something.

Originally posted by ZJ:

Two questions however, if you get a team promoted and then relegated the next season and then promoted again what would happen (assuming you don't lose rep when you get relegated which is something that we need to find out as some point.

For the leagues to stay stable over time there must be a similar decrease for losing the division above as the increase for winning the one below. This must necessarily be the case for club rep at least.

Originally posted by donnie:

how to become a legendary manager?

Never seen this one in the game. If it's there it must be reserved for retired managers.

[donnie]

no,i actually achieved this after winning all the leagues,cup for 4 straight season on a lower level nation

[Morridin]

Originally posted by donnie:

no,i actually achieved this after winning all the leagues,cup for 4 straight season on a lower level nation

Still got the savegame?

[crouchaldinho]

Morridin - see if your theories can explain this one for me. I just lost out to an international job (Ghana) to a much less qualified candidate.

Me - 3150, 3084, 1240

The new Ghana manager - 1250, 1250, 375

Is this just down to nationality? I'm English and the winning candidate was Ghanaian.

The other theory I have is that my World Reputation is less than his Home Reputation. So in theory, because it is his home country, his Home rep gets measured against my crappy World Rep for the job.

I also wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that I am currently employed at club level?

The other interesting thing is that I am still rated as unproven, despite my Home Rep and Current Rep being in the Regional part of the scale you've detailed in this thread somewhere above. Crucially, my World Rep is less than the 1500 you quoted for Regional though.

C.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

Morridin - see if your theories can explain this one for me. I just lost out to an international job (Ghana) to a much less qualified candidate.

Me - 3150, 3084, 1240

The new Ghana manager - 1250, 1250, 375

Is this just down to nationality? I'm English and the winning candidate was Ghanaian.

The other theory I have is that my World Reputation is less than his Home Reputation. So in theory, because it is his home country, his Home rep gets measured against my crappy World Rep for the job.

I also wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that I am currently employed at club level?

The other interesting thing is that I am still rated as unproven, despite my Home Rep and Current Rep being in the Regional part of the scale you've detailed in this thread somewhere above. Crucially, my World Rep is less than the 1500 you quoted for Regional though.

C.

Hm, puzzling data indeed. As my previous research has shown that your chances of instantly getting a foreign national job is a function of your world rep and current rep combined. The game does indeed favor domestic managers, but your numbers seems to say that they are even more favored than originally thought. Hm, maybe I should stop drawing conclusions and just call them working hypothesis instead.

As for your in game label the only variable that affects it is current rep, but your are right that this is higher than the one which gave me regional rep. I assume you are playing in england? If you are playing in Spain it would have to be higher. If not then perhaps the country rep of england has increased in your game.

[crouchaldinho]

Originally posted by Morridin:

Hm, puzzling data indeed. As my previous research has shown that your chances of instantly getting a foreign national job is a function of your world rep and current rep combined. The game does indeed favor domestic managers, but your numbers seems to say that they are even more favored than originally thought.

Yes, although it may be because I am currently managing a club. Have you managed to get an international job while already employed because I get the impression that each international job that has been successfully applied for has been by a unemployed manager.

Hm, maybe I should stop drawing conclusions and just call them working hypothesis instead.

This is a great thread and some terrific work Morridin - I certainly think you are on to something.

I am very interested in how reputation works and it has not been covered before in these forums.

Good work!

As for your in game label the only variable that affects it is current rep, but your are right that this is higher than the one which gave me regional rep. I assume you are playing in england? If you are playing in Spain it would have to be higher. If not then perhaps the country rep of england has increased in your game.

I am playing in England. I am in my third season. The first season, I took over at St. Albans City (in the BSS) towards the end of the season and played a handful of games achieving 15th place. The second season, after a complete overhaul of the squad, I finished 1st and won promotion out of the BSS, which saw a huge reputation boost (unfortunately I did not record the figures). I am currently 30 games into my third season and sitting in a mid-table position in the Blue Square Premier.

I always apply for any international jobs, just in case. There have been a few lower reputation countries that have come available during the last year, such as Cameroon and Nigeria, but I didn't get any of these either.

I'm planning to have a career game at present so your findings are very interesting to me.

I am running leagues from the following countries: French, English, Irish, Italian, German.

I have applied for some low rep jobs in Ireland, just for out of curiosity rather than through any desire to move clubs, and didn't get any of them. All of the clubs I applied to were below 2000 in rep and my rep was much greater. I figured this might have something to do with the fact that I am currently in employment - the compensation business seems to really cause problems in FM. I have found in the past that I could get loads of jobs once I resigned that I could never get while still employed.

To answer your final point, I don't know what you mean when you say that the country rep of England has increased in my game? Do you mean the national team? I think I have read that it is impossible for competitions to gain in reputation so I guess that is what you mean?

If there is any more detail you would like me to check on then I would be happy to contribute. Just let me know and I will post details.

Cheers,

C.

[ZJ]

Morridin - see if your theories can explain this one for me. I just lost out to an international job (Ghana) to a much less qualified candidate.

Me - 3150, 3084, 1240

The new Ghana manager - 1250, 1250, 375

Is this just down to nationality? I'm English and the winning candidate was Ghanaian.

The other theory I have is that my World Reputation is less than his Home Reputation. So in theory, because it is his home country, his Home rep gets measured against my crappy World Rep for the job.

I also wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that I am currently employed at club level?

The other interesting thing is that I am still rated as unproven, despite my Home Rep and Current Rep being in the Regional part of the scale you've detailed in this thread somewhere above. Crucially, my World Rep is less than the 1500 you quoted for Regional though.

C.

Could it be that it takes Home + Current for Domestic vs. World for other candidates? Or something similar is also plausable.

Yes, although it may be because I am currently managing a club. Have you managed to get an international job while already employed because I get the impression that each international job that has been successfully applied for has been by a unemployed manager.

I just got the Cameroon job while employed in the Russian Premier Div. Got offered the Algerian and Austrian job as well so its definately possible.

More about that in my next post since its part of some data.

[ZJ]

Ok, here comes alot of information to will try to keep it short.

First season after Promotion to Top Russian Div (what rep does it have btw, I still haven't figured out how to find that out).

My rep at the beginning of season: 2412, 3344, 2010. Club: 3899

Since its 30 games in a season, I did a check every 10 games.

Game 10:

2571, 3394, 2144. Club: 3917

Game 20:

2741, 3527, 2293. Club: 3937.

Game 29:

2858, 3604, 2406. Club 3949.

End of Season:

2871, 3628, 2419. Club: 4050.

I was predicted to finish 16th, finished 10th or 11th. Started off really bad, 2nd half of the season went much better.

Increase over the season was approx 300, 234, 275. Club: 123.

A) Increases in Man rep was solely from games with a small bump at the end of the season, it was only 13 though so most likely due to the result (shock 1-0 win for me).

B) Club barely moved during the season until it got a 100 point increase due to its position.

Now here is some more interesting facts.

I checked the Rep of all clubs that was in danger of relegation and none of them had any decrease in rep due to position or relegation. However, as one of the clubs relegated was part of the experiment when I tried to get hired, I knew its rep about 1.5 seasons ago. Back then, it was 5117, now when relegated its 4341, a decrease of 800 in that time. Interestingly it maybe that that its the results that lower rep and not relegation itself. I've checked in on them regularly for about 3 months now and their rep hasn't moved from what it was just after the season ended. Maybe its relative, i.e. you only get a decrease if your rep is very high?

A bunch of International jobs came up, and I applied to 4 of them. I got 3, Austria, Algeria and Cameroon (the one I didn't get was England which went to Rafa Benitez ). I accepted Cameroon which had a rep of 5500. I scoured the database for Cameroonians but could only find 3, of which only one was really suitable to control a team but he was an ass. man with no manager experience. Similar stories for Austria and Cameroon. Its definately has to do with competition.

When I was hired, my club got a rep increase of about 250! Makes some sense though, but you'd figure that the manager should get some as well... However, this may be factored into when I start playing international games and thus this will increase my world rep. Will be interesting to find out.

I applied for a bunch of normal jobs, but every time I lost out to candidates much more qualified and had way higher rep than me so couldn't deduce much from that.

C. mentioned something I thought about earlier as well, if you are more likely to get hired when you are unemployed? Will look into that when I have time.

Here is some thoughts for the future:

1) What does international games do to your rep? Increase World rep obviously, but does will it do anything to Home or Current?

2) Its tricky to figure out what increases club rep but doing well against teams with higher rep is a definate way forward. Given that I played 30 odd games, I had an increase of 6-10 per game. This in a season where I won 7, drew 9 and lost 15!

3) Club rep barely moved from games, guess its promotion/qualification that does this. Data is needed from different leagues, particularly does that have more than 2-3 to see if the top league has different rules than the lower ones.

4) The 100 point increase in club rep was there this time again. More investigation into this required to determine if its relative to your club rep, based on relative result or something else.

I'll be away for a while in the coming week, so can't play but will keep reading here. If I have time, will try to do some minor test that doesn't involve playing.

/ZJ

[Morridin]

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

Yes, although it may be because I am currently managing a club. Have you managed to get an international job while already employed because I get the impression that each international job that has been successfully applied for has been by a unemployed manager.

I know it is definitely possible to manage both a club team and a national team at the same time, but it might be easier to get if you are unemployed.

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

I have applied for some low rep jobs in Ireland, just for out of curiosity rather than through any desire to move clubs, and didn't get any of them. All of the clubs I applied to were below 2000 in rep and my rep was much greater. I figured this might have something to do with the fact that I am currently in employment - the compensation business seems to really cause problems in FM. I have found in the past that I could get loads of jobs once I resigned that I could never get while still employed.

And I have found that I can get rejected at, seemingly, just as many jobs while I'm unemployed as when I have a job. I think your opposing applicants are more important. AS for you not getting a job in Ireland remember that you're fighting the domestic manager bias.

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

To answer your final point, I don't know what you mean when you say that the country rep of England has increased in my game? Do you mean the national team? I think I have read that it is impossible for competitions to gain in reputation so I guess that is what you mean?

Labels are not related to competition rep, as I might have lead you to believe. My Working hypothesis is that it's related to the national teams rep. Did England do well in your last WC or EC?

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

If there is any more detail you would like me to check on then I would be happy to contribute. Just let me know and I will post details.

You could try to edit your reputation stats in FMM and see what values it would take to lose the Unproven label.

Originally posted by ZJ:

Could it be that it takes Home + Current for Domestic vs. World for other candidates? Or something similar is also plausable.

I haven't actually tested for domestic jobs, but foreign national team is definitely a function of Current and World rep.

Originally posted by ZJ:

First season after Promotion to Top Russian Div (what rep does it have btw, I still haven't figured out how to find that out).

If you mean the Russian Premier Division it has a reputation of 13. You can find this in the FM 2008 Data editor, which there should be a link to in your Start-menu program folder.

Originally posted by ZJ:

Increase over the season was approx 300, 234, 275. Club: 123.

This is about 2 times the size of my increases, which I will take in favor of the competition rep significance on single match increases theory if you were fighting difficult odds and overachieved. Makes sense that it should be about twice the size of my numbers as your league is almost twice as reputable (13 vs 7). You would normally expect that the difference wouldn't be this great, but I found that performing consistently above expectations seemed to turn the odds in my favor over the course of the season. In addition to this I expect that there is a greater spread between the top and bottom teams of your league than in the Norwegian first division, and that you might have beaten a few of the best teams. Your home rep increase is actually 459 btw.

Originally posted by ZJ:

I checked the Rep of all clubs that was in danger of relegation and none of them had any decrease in rep due to position or relegation. However, as one of the clubs relegated was part of the experiment when I tried to get hired, I knew its rep about 1.5 seasons ago. Back then, it was 5117, now when relegated its 4341, a decrease of 800 in that time. Interestingly it maybe that that its the results that lower rep and not relegation itself. I've checked in on them regularly for about 3 months now and their rep hasn't moved from what it was just after the season ended. Maybe its relative, i.e. you only get a decrease if your rep is very high?

Timing of when you check would be essential here. It follows from my previous observations that the decrease would come as soon as you see the R in the league table, not post-season.

Originally posted by ZJ:

Here is some thoughts for the future:

1) What does international games do to your rep? Increase World rep obviously, but does will it do anything to Home or Current?

2) Its tricky to figure out what increases club rep but doing well against teams with higher rep is a definate way forward. Given that I played 30 odd games, I had an increase of 6-10 per game. This in a season where I won 7, drew 9 and lost 15!

3) Club rep barely moved from games, guess its promotion/qualification that does this. Data is needed from different leagues, particularly does that have more than 2-3 to see if the top league has different rules than the lower ones.

4) The 100 point increase in club rep was there this time again. More investigation into this required to determine if its relative to your club rep, based on relative result or something else.

1) Probably all three, but it should be interesting to see if it emphasizes one of them more than the others.

2,3) I typically got increases of 2 when I won a match in NFD. Promotion/qualification definitely gives you a bonus.

4) Hm, perhaps it's related to overachieving in the league in general. There would need to be a threshold to explain your first boost though.

[ZJ]

Timing of when you check would be essential here. It follows from my previous observations that the decrease would come as soon as you see the R in the league table, not post-season.

The team with the 800 decrease was relegated prior to the last game so could have missed that, but the other team was relegated on the last day and had no decrease in rep.

Your home rep increase is actually 459 btw.

My bad, I took the rep from game 10 instead of beginning of the season. All 4 reps are wrong. It should be 459, 284, 419 and 151 respectively.

Me going to bed now, making enough mistakes as it is

[crouchaldinho]

Originally posted by Morridin:

AS for you not getting a job in Ireland remember that you're fighting the domestic manager bias.

Do you have any theories about how much the domestic manager bias skews the reputation value?

I've been losing out to lots of managers with lower rep. I will have to keep a closer eye on it and record their nationalities and reputations.

Labels are not related to competition rep, as I might have lead you to believe. My Working hypothesis is that it's related to the national teams rep. Did England do well in your last WC or EC?

England haven't done much in my game - but they did make the Euro Champs Quarter Finals.

You could try to edit your reputation stats in FMM and see what values it would take to lose the Unproven label.

Strangely, I didn't need to do this, as when I looked at the game last night, I had suddenly changed to Regional. I was definitely Unproven last time I looked so I must have just been on the threshold and a couple of results must have carried me over.

My reputation values are now: 3172, 3109, 1239. That is increases of 22, 85, -1.

Since last posting, I went on a really good run after being inconsistent all season. I also won a manager of the month award, which may have pushed my reputation up?

Next time I win a manager of the month award, I will check the reputation as I think that must be the reason for my sudden increase. It might not be for some time however, because I'm playing awfully again now! Normal service has been resumed!

As for my reputation label, it seems that the current reputation has been crucial in getting the Regional status.

Curiously though, my World Reputation has dropped by 1 point during this time. I cannot think why this could be, although I lost two games, one in the cup to a lesser team I should have beaten and one in the league against my biggest rivals.

I haven't actually tested for domestic jobs, but foreign national team is definitely a function of Current and World rep.

I checked the guy who got the Cameroon job that I applied for and his rep is much greater than mine, which explains that one. However, the Ghana job is still very confusing to me. How could I lose out to such a rubbish manager? Especially if it is a function of current rep and world rep - mine were 3084, 1240 and his 1250, 375 respectively. There must be a bigger bias on nationalities than originally thought.

I have just checked my database and the managers who beat me to the Cameroon and Ghana job are the only managers of their nationalities in my game, as far as I can see.

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but did I read somewhere on here that you can take over international U21 teams?

C.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

Do you have any theories about how much the domestic manager bias skews the reputation value?

If domestic managers uses home rep instead of world rep for these comparisons it would be skewered a great deal, since home rep is usually at least twice as big as world rep.

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

Strangely, I didn't need to do this, as when I looked at the game last night, I had suddenly changed to Regional. I was definitely Unproven last time I looked so I must have just been on the threshold and a couple of results must have carried me over.

Problem solved then.

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

Since last posting, I went on a really good run after being inconsistent all season. I also won a manager of the month award, which may have pushed my reputation up?

MOM awards do indeed give you a little boost. I got a 15,10,0 increase for the Norwegian FD.

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

Curiously though, my World Reputation has dropped by 1 point during this time. I cannot think why this could be, although I lost two games, one in the cup to a lesser team I should have beaten and one in the league against my biggest rivals.

You might have your answer right there.

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but did I read somewhere on here that you can take over international U21 teams?

Don't know, haven't seen such a possibility myself. I doubt I would have bothered with it if given the opportunity though.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

The team with the 800 decrease was relegated prior to the last game so could have missed that, but the other team was relegated on the last day and had no decrease in rep.

You're certain it was direct relegation and not just playoff?

[crouchaldinho]

Rejected for another international job. This time it was Algeria.

My rep - 3179, 3113, 1238.

The manager who beat me to it - 2100, 2110 630.

The most striking thing about this was that the new Algeria manager was not in the game prior to getting the job!

Out of interest, I have quit and restarted a few times to double-check who gets the job ahead of me, and a new manager (with similar reputation) is created each time and gets the job.

Obviously not very helpful to your theories Morridin but I thought it was quite interesting.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

Originally posted by ZJ:

Ok, some new information. Quit my job and had at the time rep of 2412 (home), 3236 (current), 2010 (world).

[...]

b) I only got 1 job, which was one of the international ones (it had rep 5550) - Cameroon.

I just thought, this probably explains a little bit more about how some of the international jobs work. ZJ clearly got his Cameroon job because his world reputation (2010) was comparable to any competing Cameroonian nationality manager that was created by the game.

After reloading a few times, the managers who beat me to the job all seem to come out with the same kind of reputation.

C.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by crouchaldinho:

Rejected for another international job. This time it was Algeria.

My rep - 3179, 3113, 1238.

The manager who beat me to it - 2100, 2110 630.

The most striking thing about this was that the new Algeria manager was not in the game prior to getting the job!

Out of interest, I have quit and restarted a few times to double-check who gets the job ahead of me, and a new manager (with similar reputation) is created each time and gets the job.

Obviously not very helpful to your theories Morridin but I thought it was quite interesting.

C.

Hm, possibly there is a threshold you must be above in order to be eligible for the job. If there are no eligible candidates then the game apparently creates a manager with the right nationality and gives him the job automatically.

[crouchaldinho]

Yes, that is my theory too Morridin . Looks like I won't be getting an international job anytime soon - not until I push my world rep up, anyway!

C.

[Law_Man]

Good thread Morridin

ps are you a 'Wheel of Time' reader by the way?

[ZJ]

Originally posted by Morridin:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ZJ:

The team with the 800 decrease was relegated prior to the last game so could have missed that, but the other team was relegated on the last day and had no decrease in rep.

You're certain it was direct relegation and not just playoff? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Positive, Russian Premier have 2 straight relegation places.

Rejected for another international job. This time it was Algeria.

My rep - 3179, 3113, 1238.

The manager who beat me to it - 2100, 2110 630.

The most striking thing about this was that the new Algeria manager was not in the game prior to getting the job!

Out of interest, I have quit and restarted a few times to double-check who gets the job ahead of me, and a new manager (with similar reputation) is created each time and gets the job.

Obviously not very helpful to your theories Morridin but I thought it was quite interesting.

C.

This is actually very interesting, and the conclusion about threshold is probably true. This was probably why becoming an International Manager was so easy in 07, i.e. the threshold didn't exist then so you became the only applicant every time.

I had previously applied to other internationals and didn't get them, so obviously 2000 seem to be a good beginning. Now is the threshold 2000 for all nations or only those with a rep below a certain point? Seems like you need both to clear the threshold and for it to be a lack of other candidates to get the job (which obviously is less likely with higher rep countries). Will keep trying to get international jobs to see how high rep country is accessable. My bet is that it has to do with the DB as well, i.e. you can only get international jobs in this way for countries which DB's you haven't loaded as their possible managers is restricted.

Good thread Morridin

ps are you a 'Wheel of Time' reader by the way?

I've read them, but gave up after the 10th or something and decided to wait until they were all out before re-reading them all .

[Law_Man]

I've been waiting for the past year for him to finish the LAST book. But he's ill apparently so it could be a while. I might re-read them all once I've bought the latest one.

Do you know that there's also a 'prequel' Wheel of Time book?

[turn it upto 11]

wheel of time?

btw have you got the points needed for each step up the ladder, local,regional etc. im sure youve already said earlier on but i cant see it.

[ZJ]

turn it upto 11 , here you go:

Manager Reputation is a partially hidden attribute in FM. If you read your own manager screen you can see your reputation described as one of the following:

1. Unproven

2. Obscure

3. Local

3. Regional

5. National

6. Continental

7. World Class

These are actually simple categorizations of a hidden variable that goes from 0 - 10000. These categories depend on the reputation of your current or last played league (probably it's the nation of the league), so you can have unproven reputation in England and change to national reputation if you take a job in Malaysia without your reputation actually changing.

In the Russian league, the step from regional to national seem to be around 2500 somewhere, but I'd figure its way higher in other. I've seen coaches with rep around 5000 still with regional in other leagues.

I've been waiting for the past year for him to finish the LAST book. But he's ill apparently so it could be a while. I might re-read them all once I've bought the latest one.

Do you know that there's also a 'prequel' Wheel of Time book?

wheel of time?

Wheel of Time is a series of fantasy books by Robert Jordan, Morridin is a "character" in one of them (although I thought it was spelled differently... probably just me, last time I read them was probably 4-5 years ago) so hence the original query. The books/series are (in)famous for being very long and having tons of characters/plots going on at the same time with side-characters returning over and over again making it really hard to remember it all.

They are well worth the read though, original, well-written, good character development and keeps a good pace all the way through.

I heard there was supposed to be 13 books, and he was writing 12 when he fell ill. He apparantly already written the ending as well so hopefully it shouldn't be too much. Can't say for sure, after I stopped reading them I just check in every now and then to see if a new one is out but don't concern myself with them. Not sure if he counted the prequel as one of the 13 or he has 12 and 13 left to write... or has 12 already come out and we are waiting for 13? I haven't read it, I figured I'd get it when I get the rest of the books.

[turn it upto 11]

ok thanks, i dont want ot use FMM to check my rep. but i was hoping it would go up again soon, its regional at the moment. let my contract run out at redditch after 3 years of overachieving, only to find the only club that would accept me was morecombe, in the same league but a far better team and predicted first.

and i may check those books out, love stuff like that, sounds like lost but better and in book form(always better). i was hoping it would be a football book thats all, never seen any oher that biographys etc.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by Law_Man:

Good thread Morridin

ps are you a 'Wheel of Time' reader by the way?

Thanks, and yes you nailed it. Should be Moridin with a single r, as ZJ pointed out, but it's difficult to get the nick you want sometimes.

Originally posted by Law_Man:

I've been waiting for the past year for him to finish the LAST book. But he's ill apparently so it could be a while. I might re-read them all once I've bought the latest one.

Robert Jordan is dead. He died before he could finish the last book, so the series will be finished by Brandon Sanderson. The series has gone down hill since book six though. Jordan committed himself to writing more books than he had material for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time

[AB-forever]

Haven't been on the forums in the last week or so, but I think ZJ has backed up my claim (about Current Rep.).

His manager wasn't Russian, and his Current Rep. went up more than his Home Rep., which makes perfect sense because his surroundings are where his reputation will be affected the most unless you're a star and/or some kind of national hero

It course it's probably a little more complicated than this, but I think it's an important part of the explanation.

KUTGW Morridin great that you're keeping the thread alive

[AB-forever]

Originally posted by AB-forever:

Haven't been on the forums in the last week or so, but I think ZJ has backed up my claim (about Current Rep.).

His manager wasn't Russian, and his Current Rep. went up more than his Home Rep., which makes perfect sense because his surroundings are where his reputation will be affected the most unless you're a star and/or some kind of national hero

<STRIKE>It</STRIKE>Of course it's probably a little more complicated than this, but I think it's an important part of the explanation.

KUTGW Morridin great that you're keeping the thread alive

[Colorado]

Just to say well done to both Morridin and ZJ for their efforts on this one.

I initially followed the thread on the sortitoutsi forums and posted some questions regarding my own current game but with the additional info ZJ has added this thread is more interesting.

Keep going, I for one am definatley keeping an eye on this thread.

[GreenEagle16]

Originally posted by Morridin:

To get a boost from a Cup or tournament you apparently have to reach the final. By losing the semi-final of the Norwegian Cup I did not get any reputation, but by losing the final my rep scores increased by 442, 441 and 231. By winning the Cup I got increases of 757, 756 and 463.

Was thinking about this and I'm thinking that surely this has to do with expectation. That is, if you are expected to reach the semi's of some cup comp. and you reach the final then you get a boost in rep., and if not then you don't. But if you're expected to make it to the 2nd round of the same cup and you make it to the semi's then surely you'd get a rep boost?

I've no idea what expectations your club had in the cup you are taking part in but if it is in fact as you say, then it'd be near impossible to advance rep at a lower league club in the cups. So I ask, what were your expectations in said cup comp.?

Also, this could be linked to league rep as well but it'll be more vague.

And I agree, this is definitely one of the most useful threads in GD.

[ZJ]

Robert Jordan is dead. He died before he could finish the last book, so the series will be finished by Brandon Sanderson. The series has gone down hill since book six though. Jordan committed himself to writing more books than he had material for.

That would explain it. Sad though, always liked the books. Good to read when you want to turn off from the world for a while. I felt they started to go down around book 8-10 (not sure if I read 11) but after you still wanted to know what happened. Hopefully Brandon will use some of the things Jordan wrote, and I'm sure he wrote that he already written the end. Although its pretty easy to figure out how it would end unless he was planning something weird.

Anyway, back to topic.

While studying today I was running some tests in the background.

With rep of 2571, 3394, 2144 I resigned and went job hunting. I was out after 2 things. Checking the club rep of the jobs I got (not interesting in int jobs this time) and checking the rep of the manager I lost out to.

Firstly, got 8 job offers from varying clubs, rep from 500-2087. 1 portugese, 1 german, 4 english, 1 danish, 1 italian. The prevalance of English may be that my 2nd nationality is English.

Anyway, the majority of jobs I was turned down for had candidates with reps almost twice what I had in home and current. For World I could match most of them. Interestingly enough though, some small clubs got some candidates with very high rep (the managers had about twice home/current to the clubs rep). This also included a club getting a manager with home rep 7000. He was a former international though, so not sure if that had impact.

Here is the interesting part. 3 of the jobs I was turned down for was for candidates that I was superior to. All 3 was in England.

The first two was 2000, 2000, 500 (obviously a just created manager) and 2090, 2090, 482. Assuming it to be a function of Current and World, it still holds true as them together is still better than my world.

The last one however is the interesting one. The candidate that got it was 1719, 1235, 312!!

We thus need to make some hypothesis to investigate this more. This is the situations, give me your suggestions:

a) Comparing managers of the same nationality within the same country

b) Comparing domestic against external managers with different nationality.

c) Comparing domestic against external managers with the same nationality (for example someone who never coached in their home country).

d) Any other situations that can arise.

I'll write more later, gotta go now. If you have any ideas, please post!

Keep up the good work guys.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by GreenEagle16:

I've no idea what expectations your club had in the cup you are taking part in but if it is in fact as you say, then it'd be near impossible to advance rep at a lower league club in the cups. So I ask, what were your expectations in said cup comp.?

Don't remember exactly, but I think it was "we expect you to enjoy the experience". Your chances of winning the cup are indeed slim if you participate as a member of one of the lowest leagues. I'm not quite sure how important expectation is. Makes sense that winning anything would make you more famous, regardless of your initial reputation.

Originally posted by ZJ:

Brandon will use some of the things Jordan wrote, and I'm sure he wrote that he already written the end. Although its pretty easy to figure out how it would end unless he was planning something weird.

As far as i know he had the ending all written out. It will be up to Brandon to fill in the gaps.

Originally posted by ZJ:

Firstly, got 8 job offers from varying clubs, rep from 500-2087. 1 portugese, 1 german, 4 englishhttp://community.sigames.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&f=521102691&m=6082009393

Mechanics of Manager Reputation, 1 danish, 1 italian. The prevalance of English may be that my 2nd nationality is English.

My working hypothesis is that secondary nationality gives you the domestic bias in said country.

Originally posted by ZJ:

Here is the interesting part. 3 of the jobs I was turned down for was for candidates that I was superior to. All 3 was in England.

The first two was 2000, 2000, 500 (obviously a just created manager) and 2090, 2090, 482. Assuming it to be a function of Current and World, it still holds true as them together is still better than my world.

The big question at this point would be: Were they in your DB prior to their appointment?

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

We thus need to make some hypothesis to investigate this moe. This is the situations, give me your suggestions:

a) Comparing managers of the same nationality within the same country

b) Comparing domestic against external managers with different nationality.

c) Comparing domestic against external managers with the same nationality (for example someone who never coached in their home country).

d) Any other situations that can arise.

I'll write more later, gotta go now. If you have any ideas, please post!

Keep up the good work guys.

I think the most pressing thing to verify is whether my finding, that your chances of getting a foreign international job is a function of current and world rep, holds true for other clubs. Verifying that domestic managers uses home rep instead of world rep is especially important.

[ZJ]

My working hypothesis is that secondary nationality gives you the domestic bias in said country.

The big question at this point would be: Were they in your DB prior to their appointment?

I with the working hypothesis and with regards to the second: The first manager was just created, had no previous history at all while the 2nd had had one previous club for less than a year (which makes sense looking at his rep).

I think the most pressing thing to verify is whether my finding, that your chances of getting a foreign international job is a function of current and world rep, holds true for other clubs. Verifying that domestic managers uses home rep instead of world rep is especially important.

Yes, trying to figure out what rep is used for what is the key here.

Based on the initial experience, it seems like your nationality/ies allows you to use your home rep in that country. Makes sense.

Verification 1:

Foreign International jobs as a function of Current and World AND you are better than other candidates BUT only if your World is high enough (preliminary results seem to indicate 40-50% of nation rep) atleast.

Here is some basic ideas, I'm not 100% on all of these so they are just suggestions we can check out.

Hypothesis 1:

When comparing managers of any combination of nationality and country of the job, World Rep will be involved in the selection. Logically, a world famous manager with no experience from a certain country can get jobs in that country.

Hypothesis 2:

When comparing domestic managers against each other, it will be a function of Home as well as World. Assuming the managers been in the same country their whole career, Home and Current should roughly be equal. If not, Current will be larger (which represents their rep in the country where they gained it) and if this is the case, they may be considered an external candidate.

Hypothesis 3:

When comparing a domestic manager to an external manager, the former will use Home and/or Current and World while the latter will only use Current and World.

Logically, the external candidate can't use Home for anything.

Hypothesis 4:

When comparing external managers Current and World will be used (this can be checked if someone is turned down for a job which goes to another external candidate without previous experience of that country).

Question:

Does Current rep change if you move countries? It shouldn't, but at what point does your Current Rep for Country A become the Current Rep for Country B?

I'm well aware that these hypothesis needs to be changed/altered but just posing questions so we can hone them down a bit later.

/ZJ

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

Question:

Does Current rep change if you move countries? It shouldn't, but at what point does your Current Rep for Country A become the Current Rep for Country B?

I don't believe you can think of current rep as your reputation in the country you are currently playing in the first place. It does not change when you move to a new country, though your ingame label might. I think of current rep as your main reputation attribute, while Home and World rep are used to create the domestic bias.

[ZJ]

I don't believe you can think of current rep as your reputation in the country you are currently playing in the first place. It does not change when you move to a new country, though your ingame label might. I think of current rep as your main reputation attribute, while Home and World rep are used to create the domestic bias.

Ah, yeah, that makes more sense, more like a "overall" reputation then. Sorry, my confusion then

[ZJ]

Ok, been applying for different jobs and decided to test if there was any difference in you were employed or not. So tested a few times being each and applied to the same club. Every time I lost out to the same candidate who had 2335, 2335, 846 compared to my 2865, 3626, 2414. The job was in another country which I have no relation to, the candidate that was hired was of that nationality. Neither the club or the manager in question had either as a prefered connection.

So decided to try out various things, changing my rep with FMM.

First will be my rep and the other will be what I compared to their manager. YES/NO indicate if I got the job or not.

World > World + Home = NO

World > (World + Home) x 2 = NO

World > (World + Home) x 3 = NO

Current > Home + Current = NO

Current > Home + Current + World = NO

Currend AND World (both individually) > Home + Current + World = NO

Home > Home + Current + World = NO

Finally, I set my rep to 6000, 6000, 6000 firstly and then 9000, 9000, 9000. Both times I didn't get the job, losing out to the same candidate.

I'm a bit stumped about this. Seems like there is something more than Rep involved. Can't be CA/PA as mine is better than theirs. Checked the stats for the Director of the club as well, he has high values for Directness and Discipline but nothing else that can seem to explain the results. Seem to be some random variable or something we haven't thought about.

/ZJ

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

I'm a bit stumped about this. Seems like there is something more than Rep involved. Can't be CA/PA as mine is better than theirs. Checked the stats for the Director of the club as well, he has high values for Directness and Discipline but nothing else that can seem to explain the results. Seem to be some random variable or something we haven't thought about.

Hm, you changed your values before you applied right? What club was it btw?

[ZJ]

Originally posted by Morridin:

Hm, you changed your values before you applied right? What club was it btw?

No, I changed my values after they turned me down .

I changed them, I even altered one of my manager stats to be sure I could confirm it was in the game in case my manager rep would still be national.

It was a division 2C club in Italy, Legnano. Rep 2740.

Oh, also found out that Legendary Manager isn't a reputation label, its a Manager description which you get if your Current and World Rep is above a certain value. Saw it in Russia when they went above 8000 but might be different for other countries.

[Morridin]

Originally posted by ZJ:

No, I changed my values after they turned me down .

There was a possibility that you might have applied, got rejected without getting the message and then changed the value. Obviously slim, but you never know. If this is not the case then I am truly puzzled. Your data makes no sense... Maybe if there was a function which made you too qualified to get offered the job this might happen, but I've never had reason to suspect that you might be overqualified for a job. The team hadn't just been relegated to a lower division not in play by any chance?