*official* 2008 us election thread

[Kizzak]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kizzak:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

but I hate Hilary.

And Hillary lovers hate Obama.

Hence even more of a reason to aggregate the two together. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hillary haters > Obama haters.

spelled it Hilary ffs, pitiful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

w/e

Hilbamaniac

[Jason the Yank]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee say the Bush administration needs to be more straightforward about the White House's role in the dismissals of eight federal prosecutors.

"I've told the attorney general that I think this has been mishandled, that by giving inaccurate information ... at the outset, it's caused a real firestorm, and he better get the facts out fast," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., the chairman of the committee, pledged to get the public testimony of White House officials involved in the case whether they want to testify or not.

On Monday, the Justice Department planned to turn over to Congress documents that could provide more details of the role agency officials — including Attorney General Alberto Gonzales — and top White House officials played in planning the prosecutors' dismissals.

The White House was also expected to announce this week whether it will let political strategist Karl Rove, former White House counsel Harriet Miers and other officials testify or will seek to assert executive privilege in preventing their appearance.

Leahy delayed a vote on issuing subpoenas until Thursday as the president's counsel, Fred Fielding, sought to negotiate terms. But on Sunday, Leahy said he had not met Fielding nor was he particularly open to any compromises, such as a private briefing by the administration officials.

"I want testimony under oath. I am sick and tired of getting half-truths on this," Leahy said.

Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter (news, bio, voting record), the top Republican on the committee, said he had a long talk with Fielding on Friday and was reserving judgment. Specter said he would like to see Rove and Miers testify openly.

"I want to see exactly what the White House response is," Specter said. "Maybe the White House will come back and say, 'We'll permit them to be interviewed and we'll give them all the records.'"

White House spokeswoman Emily Lawrimore declined to comment about whether Rove and Miers would testify. Fielding was taking additional time to review the matter "given the importance of the issues under consideration and the presidential principles involved," she said.

At issue are the firings of eight U.S. attorneys, dismissals that Democrats say were politically motivated. Gonzales initially had asserted the firings were performance-related, not based on political considerations.

But e-mails between the Justice Department and the White House contradicted that assertion. The e-mails showed that Rove, as early as Jan. 6, 2005, questioned whether the U.S. attorneys should all be replaced at the start of Bush's second term, and to some degree worked with Miers and former Gonzales chief of staff Kyle Sampson to get some prosecutors dismissed.

Both the Senate and House Judiciary committees planned votes on subpoenas for Rove and Miers. The Senate panel already has approved using subpoenas, if necessary, for Justice officials and J. Scott Jennings, deputy to White House political director Sara Taylor, who works for Rove.

Lawmakers also were scheduled to quiz Gonzales on Thursday about his agency's budget request in a hearing expected to generate some questions on the prosecutor scandal.

Several Democrats and a few Republicans, including Sen. John Sununu of New Hampshire, have called for Gonzales to resign.

Leahy and Cornyn appeared on ABC's "This Week," while Specter spoke on "Fox News Sunday."

[Jason the Yank]

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Prospective voters eager to learn more about John McCain or to become an Internet "friend" of Barack Obama now have a new online opportunity. MySpace.com, the popular social networking site, on Sunday launched a section dedicated to the 2008 presidential election.

Called the Impact Channel, it's the latest attempt by an Internet company to educate voters by serving as an information hub for political candidates and the public.

By clicking onto impact.myspace.com, the site's mostly young users can link to the personal pages or "profiles" of 10 presidential hopefuls.

Democrats Obama, Hillary Rodham Clinton,

John Edwards, Joe Biden, and Dennis Kucinich have set up MySpace profiles. Republicans McCain, Rudolph Giuliani, Duncan Hunter, Mitt Romney and Ron Paul also have pages.

So does Bill Richardson, you fools

MySpace users will be able to read the candidates' blogs, see photos and video and, if they choose, link their favorite candidate to their friends list or put a candidate's ad onto their own pages.

"As the country's most trafficked Web site, MySpace will play a powerful role in the upcoming election," Chris DeWolfe, MySpace's chief executive said in a statement.

Some candidates, taking advantage of the Internet's potential to reach millions of voters, have already set up their own campaign Web sites and profiles on other social networking Web sites, including Facebook and Friendster.

Earlier this month, the online video site YouTube launched a new section that allows candidates to feature their own video "channels" at no cost.

So far, some candidates' MySpace profiles appear more personal than others, and some were designed appeal to young people.

Kucinich's profile shows a picture of him with his wife and young children, along with audio instructions on how to pronounce his name.

Visitors to Romney's page can click and play Elvis Presley's "A Little Less Conversation." McCain tells MySpace users his favorite TV show is "24" and his favorite movie is "Viva Zapata."

Obama's profile boasted more than 67,000 friends. It lists his status as "married," his occupation ("senator"), his ethnicity ("other") and zodiac sign ("Leo").

[finneys13]

Alright then.

I have a friend here doing politics and history. I was having a glance at his notes yesterday for some political exam, and the notes said Rumsfeld was not a neo-con.

I quizzed him about it, but being a typical student, he could remember the lecturer saying why he wasn't, but couldn't remember the points.

So I ask the people here, how the hell can anybody think Rumsfeld is not a neo-con, wasn't he one of the co-creators of the idea?

[Jongi]

I find the way Gonzalez is hanging in there amusing.

[Daaaaave]

Originally posted by finneys13:

Alright then.

I have a friend here doing politics and history. I was having a glance at his notes yesterday for some political exam, and the notes said Rumsfeld was not a neo-con.

I quizzed him about it, but being a typical student, he could remember the lecturer saying why he wasn't, but couldn't remember the points.

So I ask the people here, how the hell can anybody think Rumsfeld is not a neo-con, wasn't he one of the co-creators of the idea?

this is off the top of my head and not even referenced through wiki, but I believe neo-con sorta specifically relates to the members of pnac, of which rumsfeld was associated and acquainted but never a real member. this is the likes of wolfowitz, perle, kristol and adelman, iirc.

the thing is that neo-con is used so much more often as a perjorative than a self-description that the term was never properly defined.

[Daaaaave]

absolutely jawdroppingly brilliant. jordan will be pumped

[Gordon Comstock]

such a man :********)

[Daaaaave]

should state that it was made independently from the campaign, obama was not behind the ad.

[Gordon Comstock]

Originally posted by Daaaaave:

should state that it was made independently from the campaign, obama was not behind the ad.

a watershed moment in American electioneering, the man inspires such passion.

[Jason the Yank]

Jordan such a fanboy.

[Jason the Yank]

LANSING, Mich. (AP) -- New York Sen. Hillary Clinton is the Democratic favorite while Arizona Sen. John McCain and former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani are tops among Republicans, according to a new poll of likely Michigan voters released Monday.

When 454 Democrats were asked who they would vote for if the presidential primary or caucus were held today, 45 percent said Clinton while 29 percent said Illinois Sen. Barack Obama. Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards came in third at 16 percent, while New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Delaware Sen. Joe Biden each got 4 percent.

Two percent said they were undecided.

Among 392 Republicans polled, 30 percent said they'd vote for McCain, while 26 percent chose Giuliani. Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney was picked by 21 percent, while 16 percent chose former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and 1 percent chose Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback. Four percent were undecided.

Two percent of Republicans volunteered that they'd vote for former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson, who plays district attorney Arthur Branch on NBC's drama "Law & Order." Thompson has said he's pondering a run but has not yet decided if he'll be a candidate.

Both polls were conducted March 12 through Sunday by Lansing-based EPIC-MRA. The margin of sampling error for the poll of Democrats was around plus or minus 4.5 percentage points, while it was plus or minus 5 percentage points for Republicans.

Asked if they had a favorable opinion of the presidential hopefuls, Democrats gave Clinton a 78 percent favorable rating, while Obama got 72 percent.

Nearly 40 percent or more didn't recognize the names of Democrats Biden, Richardson, Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd, retired Gen. Wesley Clark and Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich. Clark and Kucinich were unsuccessful presidential candidates in 2004.

Fifty-three percent of the Republicans polled had a favorable opinion of Giuliani, while 50 percent had a favorable opinion of McCain. Thirty-three percent thought favorably of Gingrich, while 29 percent had a favorable opinion of Romney.

But around 40 percent or more didn't recognized the names of Brownback, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, California Rep. Duncan Hunter or Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel. Brownback, Huckabee and Hunter are all in the race, while Hagel has said he'll announce his presidential intentions later this year.

[Jason the Yank]

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) -- Hillary Rodham Clinton's pollster gave a sneak preview of her strategy for combatting Barack Obama's criticism for her support of the Iraqi war, telling a Harvard audience Monday that the two behaved similarly on the issue "when they got to the Senate."

Mark Penn, appearing with top strategists for the leading 2008 Democratic presidential campaigns, also cited two quotes he said undercut Obama's oft-cited opposition to an October 2002 congressional resolution authorizing military action in Iraq.

Clinton, a senator from New York, voted in favor of the resolution. Obama, now a U.S. senator from Illinois, was a state senator at the time.

In one, Obama said "there's not much of a difference" between his views on the war and those of President Bush. On other occasions, Obama said he was not sure how he would have voted if he had been a senator at the time, were he to have had access to government intelligence.

Both citations prompted a furious reaction from David Axelrod, the Chicago political consultant advising Obama. He said the quotes lacked context, were incomplete and were examples of the kind of political "savaging" that is alienating voters.

"I really think that it is important, if we're going to run the kind of campaign that will unify our party and move this country forward, that we do it in an honest way, and that was not an honest answer," he said.

Penn refused to relent, saying Axelrod was presenting a "false choice." Joining them on stage was Jonathan Prince, an adviser to former Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C. He jokingly pushed his chair from between the two men as they started to argue.

Penn said: "When they got to the Senate, Sen. Obama's votes were exactly the same. So let's not try to create false differences when we both agree it's time to deescalate, when we both agree it's time to end this war, and let's be clear that Sen. Clinton thinks that, Sen. Obama thinks that, former Sen. Edwards thinks that, and once we agree on that, I think we can go together quite well as a party."

Axelrod retorted: "The immutable fact is that had we followed Sen. Obama's advice in 2002, we wouldn't be talking about de-escalation right now." Edwards, like Clinton, voted for the resolution. Unlike her, however, he now says his vote was a mistake.

The Clinton campaign did not immediately respond to a request for Penn's specific citations, but computer databases show The New York Times reported July 26, 2004, "When asked about Senators (John) Kerry and Edwards' votes on the Iraq war, Obama said, `I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. ... What would I have done? I don't know.'"

At the same time, amid the Democratic National Convention in Boston where Obama was the keynote speaker, Obama told the Chicago Tribune, "There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage. The difference, in my mind, is who's in a position to execute."

[Gordon Comstock]

Clinton so boring, if she didn't have a vagina she wouldn't be in the picture.

[Splendid]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

Clinton so boring, if she didn't have a vagina she wouldn't be in the picture.

Sire, but she is in the picture?

[Kizzak]

Hillary is in the picture because of Bill, not a direct relation to her reproductive organs.

If Obama was white, he'd be about as popular as Kucinich.

[Guest]

Ive just watched Obama on Larry King and have to say he was outstanding.

That said, I know this is old news, but what did you guys think of Tom Vilsack canceling his candidacy? I thought it was amusing that he thought anyone would fund his campaign. Jumping in as the first candidate and thinking he would have a chance deserves only one response - .

[Jason the Yank]

tbf, you'd think even a candidate like Vilsack could make it longer than about 10 weeks in the race.

Just shows how much oxygen Hilbama is sucking up.

[bflaff]

Originally posted by Kizzak:

If Obama was white, he'd be about as popular as Kucinich.

Wha - ? If Obama was white, he'd be doing even better in the polls.

Unless of course, I read that wrong, and you somehow got JFK and Kucinich mixed up.

[Gordon Comstock]

Originally posted by Kizzak:

Hillary is in the picture because of Bill, not a direct relation to her reproductive organs.

If Obama was white, he'd be about as popular as Kucinich.

wrong and wrong.

[Daaaaave]

Originally posted by Kizzak:

If Obama was white, he'd be about as popular as Kucinich.

:/

[Daaaaave]

Date Clinton Obama Edwards

3/19 35% 30% 11%

new rasmussen poll

[Jason the Yank]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Presidential hopeful Tom Tancredo has joined the growing chorus of lawmakers calling for U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to resign — only not for the usual reason.

Unlike others criticizing Gonzales over the recent firing of eight U.S. attorneys, the Colorado Republican said the embattled attorney general should go because of "a series of leadership failures" — chiefly his handling of illegal immigration prosecutions.

"Gonzales' legacy at the (Justice Department) has been one of misplaced priorities, political miscalculation, and a failure to enforce the laws which he has sworn to uphold," Tancredo said in a statement Tuesday. "I think that it is time for him to move on."

Gonzales' job security has been in question in recent days as members of Congress from both parties have demanded to know whether the decision to fire prosecutors was a Bush administration purge to install political cronies in plum jobs.

Tancredo said that he doesn't believe Gonzales' handling of the prosecutors' firings alone warrants his dismissal, but "his total mishandling of the affair is simply the latest in a series of leadership failures at the Justice Department."

Tancredo faulted several Justice Department decisions dealing with border crimes, including the prosecution of two border patrol agents for shooting a Mexican drug smuggler and trying to cover it up.

Different reasons, but when even the far-right of the party is saying Gonzalez has to go...

[bflaff]

The monster docu-dump from the Justice department re: the attorney scandal is available now at the House Judiciary Comm. website here. I hear it's about 3000 documents, so I guess the idea is to so deaden you with mundane irrelevent details that the big reveals are harder to notice.

It worked on me. I cba to go through it at the moment.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by Daaaaave:

Date Clinton Obama Edwards

3/19 35% 30% 11%

new rasmussen poll

More Rasmussen:

Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani ® leads Arizona Senator John McCain ® by eighteen points in the race for the Republican Presidential nomination. Giuliani now attracts support from 33% of those likely to vote in a Republican Primary. That's consistent with his level of support for three of the past four weeks, but down from a spike to 37% last week.

McCain slipped another point last week and is supported by just 15% of those surveyed. That is the lowest level of support measured so far for a man recently was presumed to be the frontrunner for the nomination. Thirteen percent (13%) now support former House Speaker Newt Gingrich ® while 10% prefer former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney ®. No other Republican attracts more than 2% support at this time.

Rasmussen Reports releases updated polling data on the Republican nominating contest every Tuesday. Results for the Democrats are updated on Mondays.

Among the 31% of Likely Primary voters who identify themselves as Very Conservative, Gingrich has a statistically insignificant lead over Giuliani. Romney is third among the Very Conservative while McCain is fourth.

Those who identify themselves as Somewhat Conservative prefer Giuliani over McCain by a 37% to 17% margin. Among political moderates in the GOP, 42% say they would vote for Giuliani, 20% for McCain, and 6% for Romney.

A separate survey found that 50% of all Americans voters would definitely vote against Gingrich if he is on the general election ballot. Just 20% would definitely vote for him.

Giuliani is the only candidate in either party who more people would definitely vote for than against. He also currently leads all Democrats in General Election match-ups. This includes Senator Hillary Clinton, Senator Barack Obama, former Senator John Edwards, Governor Bill Richardson, and Senator Joe Biden.

McCain is essentially even with Clinton, Obama, and Edwards while leading Richardson and Biden.

Romney trails Clinton, Obama, and Edwards. Other GOP hopefuls also trail Democrats in General Election polling.

The current survey is based upon national telephone interviews with 599 Likely Republican Primary Voters conducted March 12-15, 2007. The margin of sampling error is +/- 4 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence.

See a summary of all match-ups along with favorability ratings and perceptions of the candidates' ideology. A summary is also provided for Democratic contenders.

Rasmussen Reports is an electronic publishing firm specializing in the collection, publication, and distribution of public opinion polling information.

....

The race for the Democratic Presidential nomination is getting a bit tighter. Illinois Senator Barack Obama (D) has closed to within five points of the frontrunner—Senator Hillary Clinton. A week ago, Clinton held a 12-point lead.

The former First Lady now attracts 35% of the vote down slightly from 38% last week. Obama gained four points and now is the top choice for 30% of Likely Voters. That’s the highest level of support for Obama in any Rasmussen Reports survey since the Election 2008 season began.

Former North Carolina Senator John Edwards (D) lost four points but remains in third place with 11% support. New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson (D) is up to the 5% level of support, his highest total so far. Delaware Senator Joe Biden (D) earns support from 3% of those likely to vote in a Democratic Primary.

Rasmussen Reports releases national polling data on the Democratic nomination process every Monday and on the Republican race each Tuesday. The current survey of 790 Likely Democratic Primary Voters was conducted March 12-15, 2007. The margin of sampling error is +/-4 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence.

A separate survey found that 30% of all voters say they would definitely vote for Clinton if she is on the 2008 Presidential ballot. However, 46% would definitely vote against her. That 46% definitely vote against figure is higher than every other candidate except former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.

Twenty-eight percent (28%) say they’d definitely vote for Obama while 37% would definitely vote against. Figures are also available for Edwards, Richardson, Biden, and leading Republican candidates.

Over the past week, Rasmussen Reports released General Election polls showing former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani ® leading Clinton and Edwards. Other surveys showed Obama and Clinton leading former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney ®. See our summary of favorability ratings and all general election match-up results for all Democratic and Republican candidates.

The first Rasmussen Reports Senate survey for Election 2008 showed Minnesota Senator Norm Coleman ® leading potential challenger Al Franken (D) by ten points.

[Daaaaave]

allegedly the ag's office recommended fitz also be one of the usa's let go in the middle of his libby investigation because "he has not distinguished himself"

[bflaff]

Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

Different reasons, but when even the far-right of the party is saying Gonzalez has to go...

Ha Ha. I was in NYC this morning, and one of the local newscasts (no surprise, really: Fox) asserted in their Gonzales story that no Republicans have come forward to demand that he be fired. Wp.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by K-uglen:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K-uglen:

I would like to plug this entertaining election game, by the way: http://www.80soft.com/pforever/info/index.htm

It is interesting.

I steered Gore to the Democratic nomination, then got humbled in the general (by Giuliani, IIRC).

Failed to get the nomination for Edwards (finished in the last 2 after Hillary dropped out before the convention). Then took over Biden's campaign, won the popular vote but lost the electoral vote to Brownback. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I took Obama to the nomination, although Clinton tried to choke me at the end, and almost succeeded, had it not been for Edwards' dislike of her (and thus endorsement of me). In the general it became a little too tense at the end, but I still beat Romney. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grrrr....

I just managed Obama to a convention fight with Clinton and Edwards. Edwards gets along well with Obama, hates Hillary. He's well behind in the delegate count but does not accept my suggestion that he withdraw and endorse Obama.

Convention fight goes to a 2nd ballot, about 2/3 of Edwards' delegates break to Hillary and she wins 1589-1540.

[Daaaaave]

c-span doing coverage of the climate change hearings in congress this morning.

surprisingly, two republican ******* from texas are slowing the testimony with multiple cases of douchebaggery.

texas :mid:

[Recife]

Originally posted by Daaaaave:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by finneys13:

Alright then.

I have a friend here doing politics and history. I was having a glance at his notes yesterday for some political exam, and the notes said Rumsfeld was not a neo-con.

I quizzed him about it, but being a typical student, he could remember the lecturer saying why he wasn't, but couldn't remember the points.

So I ask the people here, how the hell can anybody think Rumsfeld is not a neo-con, wasn't he one of the co-creators of the idea?

this is off the top of my head and not even referenced through wiki, but I believe neo-con sorta specifically relates to the members of pnac, of which rumsfeld was associated and acquainted but never a real member. this is the likes of wolfowitz, perle, kristol and adelman, iirc.

the thing is that neo-con is used so much more often as a perjorative than a self-description that the term was never properly defined. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservative

The main neocons were Irving Kriston (Bill's father) and Norman Podhoretz (John's father) -- they were former socialists who had become conservatives -- extremely anticommunist conservatives. There aren't that many actual neocons, and many if not most of them were never on the left.

During the Clinton years, when their party was out of power, most of them were involved with PNAC. At this point, the term neocon usually refers to someone who advocates an aggressive military -- many of them embrace the idea of an American empire -- and an uncritical support of Israeli military actions. The second point is why many conservatives claim that the very term "neocon" is evidence of antisemitism on the left.

This (extremely critical) article from Salon provides some information about them (the main details are on page three):

http://dir.salon.com/story/books/feature/2004/05/03/accuse/index3.html?pn=1

[Recife]

I forgot to mention that the Kristols, Podhoretzes, and several other prominent neocons are Jewish, which adds to the antisemitism defense of neoconservatism.

[finneys13]

Ah, another Jewish conspiracy, explains everything

Thanks for that Recife

[Daaaaave]

a republican surprisingly with the money shot so far in the climate change hearings

roscoe bartlett (r-md) says: "my wife notes that she thinks there ought to be some relationship between being a conservative and conservation. and there ought to be a way of being a conservative without looking like an idiot."

paraphrased obviously, but close. also used the word "peak oil".

[Recife]

Originally posted by Daaaaave:

a republican surprisingly with the money shot so far in the climate change hearings

roscoe bartlett (r-md) says: "my wife notes that she thinks there ought to be some relationship between being a conservative and conservation. and there ought to be a way of being a conservative without looking like an idiot."

paraphrased obviously, but close. also used the word "peak oil".

Bartlett said that? That's amazing. Things are really changing.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by Daaaaave:

texas :mid:

A couple weeks ago, one of my work colleagues told me of his dream:

"Every US state west of the Mississippi leaves the US. We join up with British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. We give Texas back to the Mexicans if they'll take it. And we dig a channel around California, pull it about 500 miles off shore and they can be their own country."

[Daaaaave]

I'll settle for west of the rockies. rust belt doesn't do much for me.

[Jason the Yank]

Rust belt is east of the Mississippi though.

[Daaaaave]

my bad. meant dust bowl. not sure where rust belt came from.

[Kizzak]

The midwest is just the south without as many minorities

tbh, if the state is not adjacent to the ocean it is ****. Being adjacent does not necessarily disqualify a state from ****-hood however.

[Daaaaave]

lamar alexander: "I believe global warming is a real problem. I believe human activity is a significant factor in the problem.

I believe it is time to find a bipartisan solution to this problem."

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by Kizzak:

The midwest is just the south without as many minorities

tbh, if the state is not adjacent to the ocean it is ****. Being adjacent does not necessarily disqualify a state from ****-hood however.

Pfffft.

[Jason the Yank]

WASHINGTON (AP) - A House panel on Wednesday approved subpoenas for President Bush's political adviser, Karl Rove and other top White House aides, setting up a constitutional showdown over the firings of eight federal prosecutors.

By voice vote, the House Judiciary subcommittee on commercial and administrative law decided to compel the president's top aides to testify publicly and under oath about their roles in the firings.

The White House has refused to budge in the controversy, standing by embattled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and insisting that the firings were appropriate. White House spokesman Tony Snow said that in offering aides to talk to the committees privately, Bush had sought to avoid the "media spectacle" that would result from public hearings with Rove and others at the witness table.

"The question they've got to ask themselves is, are you more interested in a political spectacle than getting the truth?" Snow said of the overture Tuesday that was relayed to Capitol Hill by White House counsel Fred Fielding.

Publicly, the White House held out hope there would be no impasse.

"If they issue subpoenas, yes, the offer is withdrawn," said White House spokesman Tony Snow. "They will have rejected the offer."

He added that the offer for interviews on the president's terms — not under oath, on the record or in public — is final.

Democrats dismissed the overture, in large part because there would be no transcript.

"There must be accountability," countered subcommittee Chairwoman Linda Sanchez, D-Calif.

The Senate Judiciary Committee scheduled a vote Thursday on its own set of subpoenas, with Democrats complaining that the threat of force is the only way to get a straight answer from the White House.

"The White House is in a bunker mentality — won't listen, won't change," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif. "I believe there is even more to come out, and I think it's our duty to bring it out."

The House subcommittee Wednesday approved, but has not issued, subpoenas for Rove, former White House Counsel Harriet Miers, their deputies and Kyle Sampson, Gonzales' chief of staff, who resigned over the uproar last week.

The panel also voted to compel the production of documents related to the firings from those officials and Gonzales, Fielding and White House chief of staff Joshua Bolton. Fielding a day earlier refused to provide Congress internal White House communications on the subject.

With the authorization in hand, Chairman John Conyers of Michigan could issue them at any time.

Authorizing the subpoenas "does provide this body the leverage needed to negotiate from a position of strength," said Rep. William Delahunt, D-Mass.

Republicans called the authorization premature, though some GOP members said they would consider voting to approve the subpoenas if Conyers promises to issue them only if he has evidence of wrongdoing.

Conyers agreed. "This (authority) will not be used in a way that will make you regret your vote."

Several Republicans said, "No" during the voice vote, but no roll call was taken.

For his part, Bush remained resolute.

Would he fight Democrats in court to protect his aides against congressional subpoenas?

"Absolutely," Bush declared.

Bush said Tuesday he worried that allowing testimony under oath would set a precedent on the separation of powers that would harm the presidency as an institution.

If neither side blinks, the dispute could end up in court — ultimately the Supreme Court — in a politically messy development that would prolong what Bush called the "public spectacle" of the Justice Department's firings, and public trashings, of the eight U.S. attorneys.

Bush defended Gonzales against demands from congressional Democrats and a handful of Republicans that Gonzales resign. "He's got support with me," Bush said. "I support the attorney general."

Democrats say the prosecutors' dismissals were politically motivated. Gonzales initially had asserted the firings were performance-related, not based on political considerations.

But e-mails released earlier this month between the Justice Department and the White House contradicted that assertion and led to a public apology from Gonzales over the handling of the matter.

The e-mails showed that Rove, as early as Jan. 6, 2005, questioned whether the U.S. attorneys should all be replaced at the start of Bush's second term, and to some degree worked with Miers and Sampson to get some prosecutors dismissed.

Yas, Rove having to testify under oath. Too bad it's not preceded with the words, "Will the defendant please rise."

[Daaaaave]

won't happen. at least not in any meaningful way. the courts will drag this out until well after the 2008 elections.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by Daaaaave:

won't happen. at least not in any meaningful way. the courts will drag this out until well after the 2008 elections.

You're crushing my hopes.

[Jason the Yank]

NEW YORK (AP) - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama Wednesday pushed back against accusations that his oft-repeated opposition to the Iraq war was not borne out by his Senate record.

In a conference call with reporters, Obama sought to squelch the accusations — raised by the campaign of his chief rival for the nomination, Hillary Rodham Clinton — saying his Senate votes to continue funding the conflict don't contradict his long-standing opposition to it.

"Once we were in, we were going to have some responsibility to try to make it work as best we can. More importantly, you make sure the troops are supported," the Illinois senator said. "I don't think there's any contradiction there whatsoever. We should not get in, once we were in we had to make the best of a bad situation."

Earlier in the day on the Senate floor, Obama reminded colleagues of a speech he gave in 2002 warning of grave consequences if the U.S. invaded Iraq.

It was the latest flare-up in an escalating spat with Clinton, who is under fire from many Democratic activists for her 2002 vote authorizing military action in Iraq and whose lead in political polls is being eroded by Obama.

Clinton's lead strategist, Mark Penn, told an audience this week that Obama's votes on the war since he arrived in the Senate in 2005 had been identical to Clinton's.

With both candidates' credibility on the line, Obama said he wanted to make his record clear.

Obama has cast his early and forceful opposition to the war as a key test of presidential leadership and judgment. The Clinton team recently began openly challenging his claim of political purity and authenticity on the volatile issue.

Beneath the squabble lay an acute recognition of the depth of voter anger over Iraq, especially among Democratic primary voters.

Polling shows most Americans now decisively oppose the war, but the figure is much higher among Democrats. An Associated Press-Ipsos poll taken last month found that 61 percent of the public now believe the war was a mistake; among Democrats, it was 91 percent.

"Iraq is the issue that is first among equals right now, and these candidates are under incredible pressure from party activists to talk about it in a detailed way," Democratic strategist Erik Smith said. "Obama is trying to be the insurgent candidate on the war, while the Clinton campaign is trying to level the playing field and change the frame of the debate."

On the presidential campaign trail, without naming names, Obama jabs at rivals who voted in favor of the invasion.

"I am proud of the fact that I opposed this war from the start," Obama said to huge cheers at a rally Saturday in Oakland, Calif., "that I stood up in 2002 and said this is a bad idea. This is going to cost of billions of dollars and thousands of lives."

Clinton, meanwhile, has refused to repudiate her vote but has harshly criticized the conduct of the war, saying "if we knew then what we know now" she never would have voted as she did.

Clinton advisers insist that voters care more about ending the Iraq conflict than revisiting how it started. In recent months, Clinton has sponsored legislation capping troop levels and has spoken in detail of how she would resolve the conflict as president.

Still, the Clinton camp — keenly aware of Obama's increasing popularity among Democrats — has become more aggressive in challenging his careful positioning on the war. The first signs of a new strategy trickled out late last week, when former

President Clinton was quoted in a New York tabloid gossip column complaining that not enough attention had been paid to Obama's Senate votes on Iraq.

At a Harvard University forum Monday, Penn answered a question by bringing up Obama's Senate record. He said Obama, like Clinton, has voted for spending bills to continue funding the war. And like Clinton, he opposed an amendment sponsored by Massachusetts Sen.

John Kerry last year that would have set a July 1, 2007, deadline for withdrawing troops.

"When they got to the Senate, Senator Obama's votes were exactly the same," Penn said.

The claims provoked an immediate retort from the Obama campaign, which on Tuesday released a video and a detailed compilation of Obama's public statements opposing the war since his debut on the national stage.

"On the most important issue of our time, both for the primary electorate and the country, Barack Obama got it right," Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs said.

Clinton and Obama both support legislation that would remove most U.S. troops by March 1, 2008.

For her part, Clinton refused on Tuesday to engage in the debate, leaving that to her surrogates.

"I think what unites Democrats is much greater than what divides us and we need to stay focused on trying to rein in the president and reverse this escalation and begin to bring our troops home," she said.

[Jason the Yank]

DETROIT (AP) - The co-chair of presidential candidate Mitt Romney's finance committee contributed to a group that used the money for a newspaper ad comparing Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm to Adolf Hitler.

John Rakolta said he and other Republicans unwittingly paid for the ad with contributions to Voice the Vote, a Detroit-based political action committee. The full-page ad last summer featured a photo of Hitler and urged black voters to reject Granholm's 2006 re-election bid. The ad included a swastika and photo of Granholm, who defeated Republican businessman Dick DeVos in November.

The ad appeared in the Michigan Chronicle, the state's largest black newspaper.

The Democratic National Committee on Tuesday took issue with Rakolta's role in the presidential campaign and called on Romney to disavow attack ads. Rakolta, in an interview with The Associated Press, criticized the DNC.

"All the Democrats are trying to do is embarrass Mitt Romney," John Rakolta said by telephone Tuesday. "I'm not going to let one or two people, or the Democratic National Committee stop me from fundraising for Mitt Romney."

The Detroit Free Press reported last week that Rakolta and his wife each donated $5,000 to Voice the Vote, as did Detroit developer Peter Cummings and his wife. Grosse Pointe, Mich., businessman Robert Liggett donated $1,000.

Of the $29,000 raised by Voice the Vote, $21,000 came from the Rakoltas, the Cummings and Liggett, according to the Free Press.

"I was approached by a group of people who said the purpose of the PAC was to increase voter turnout in the African-American community," Rakolta said.

Damien LaVera, spokesman for the DNC, said Rakolta's position on Romney's finance committee raises questions about the type of presidential campaign the Republican candidate plans on running.

"It's incumbent on Mitt Romney to say whether or not he supports those campaign tactics or those ads," LaVera said Tuesday. "Does Romney stand by these types of ads and tactics or not?"

Rakolta said he has withdrawn "100 percent" of his support from Voice the Vote.

"This is not going to cause me to shy away from the City of Detroit and continuing to improve racial harmony," he said. "One of my tenets is to see people of color and minorities well-represented in government."

[Kizzak]

Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kizzak:

The midwest is just the south without as many minorities

tbh, if the state is not adjacent to the ocean it is ****. Being adjacent does not necessarily disqualify a state from ****-hood however.

Pfffft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Name a state not adjacent to the ocean and I'll give you plenty of reasons that qualify it for ****-hood.

[super_imps]

Maine

[Kizzak]

Looked at a map recently?

[super_imps]

Aha, I should read posts properly before posting in response