*official* 2008 us election thread

[K-uglen]

I read an interesting piece in the New York Times, where the proposal was to have regional primaries and then a rotation each election of which reaction was to have theirs when. I'm assuming this is just the thoughts of one op-ed writer, but are there any serious plans afoot to overhaul the primary system in any way?

[Brian of Nazareth]

dunno if this is the right place to post this but

Bush Deflects Pressure To Give Libby a Pardon

Clemency Before 2008 Election Could Be Politically Risky

By Peter Baker and Carol D. Leonnig

Washington Post Staff Writers

Thursday, March 8, 2007; Page A01

President Bush said yesterday that he is "pretty much going to stay out of" the case of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby until the legal process has run its course, deflecting pressure from supporters of the former White House aide to pardon him for perjury and obstruction of justice.

Libby's allies said Bush should not wait for Libby to be sentenced, and should use his executive power to spare Vice President Cheney's former chief of staff the risk of prison time for lying to a grand jury and FBI agents about his role in leaking the name of an undercover CIA officer. But the prospect of a pardon triggered condemnation from Democrats and caution from some Republicans wary of another furor.

Defense lawyers for Libby said they are focused on seeking a new trial and appealing Tuesday's jury verdict, while making clear that they believe the president should step in. "Our number one goal is to see Scooter's conviction wiped out by the courts and see him vindicated," attorney William Jeffress Jr. said in an interview. "Now, I've seen all the calls for a pardon. And I agree with them. To me, he should have been pardoned six months ago or a year ago."

In his first comments on the case since the verdict, Bush told CNN en Español that he has to "respect that conviction" but that he "was sad for a man who had worked in my administration." Bush did not rule out a pardon but implied that it is not imminent. "I'm pretty much going to stay out of it until the course -- the case has finally run its final -- the course it's going to take," he told Univision during an interview before a trip to Latin America that begins today.

No one knows better than Libby how politically hazardous a pardon can be. Before he became Cheney's chief of staff, Libby served as an attorney for Marc Rich, the financier whose pardon by President Bill Clinton in the last hours of his administration provoked a storm of complaints. Now Libby finds himself in the same situation as his onetime client, hoping for a president's beneficence.

The pardon power is enshrined in the Constitution and is completely at the president's discretion. In recent decades, presidents have been increasingly reluctant to use it for fear of political trouble. When they have exercised it in controversial cases, they typically have waited until their terms were at an end, as Clinton did with Rich, Susan McDougal, Roger Clinton and others, and as George H.W. Bush did in pardoning former defense secretary Caspar W. Weinberger and others implicated in the Iran-contra arms-for-hostages case. Libby is the highest-ranking White House official convicted of a felony since that scandal.

Otherwise, pardons in recent times generally have been granted to people who were convicted years earlier of nonviolent crimes and who have completed their sentences and redeemed themselves. Bush has granted 113 pardons over six years, nearly a modern low, and has never pardoned anyone who had not been released from prison. He has commuted the sentences of three others.

Libby probably faces a prison sentence of 1 1/2 to three years for lying about his role in the disclosure of the identity of undercover CIA officer Valerie Plame, wife of war critic and former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV. But Libby could avoid jail time until after the 2008 presidential election through appeals, according to legal specialists -- timing that would make a pardon easier for Bush politically.

Libby's defense team intends to seek a new trial and possibly appeal his conviction on four felony counts. U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton has scheduled sentencing for June 5, when many lawyers expect him to allow Libby to remain out of prison pending appeals that could last through late 2008.

Some Republicans said yesterday that Bush should wait for that process to play out. "It's probably too early for the White House to reach a determination," said former congressman Robert S. Walker (Pa.), adding that Libby "is certainly entitled to take this into the appeals process, and I don't think it should be interfered with."

But if Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald insists that Libby begin serving his sentence right away and Walton agrees, it could force the question sooner. "Then the issue could ripen very fast," said Bradford A. Berenson, a former Bush White House lawyer, who said he expects a debate within the White House about what to do.

"It seems likely that the vice president will advocate for a pardon," he said. "What's less clear is whether the president would agree."

Ok, so reading that presumably the idea of a pardon to youse guys is the norm I presume, but how the hell can could he actually even consider a pardon literally days after he's been found guilty? Seems madness to me, although evidently probably wouldn't happen during the election spell...

seems a rather corrupt law too mind. Thoughts? Completely unsurprised?

[Daaaaave]

hagel will never make it out of the primaries. he's not that popular among republicans.

regional promaries may well be the future. it makes sense and redistributes power fairly. the dnc has been looking at it pretty hard, just a question of if the state parties will go along.

you'd think libby wouldn't get pardoned as it would be a blatant misuse of power by the presi....oh wait.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by bflaff:

Chuck Hagel is going to announce Monday whether or not he's running for President. There are some signs (including the announcement in the first place) that this will be a yes. If so, he'll be the only Republican candidate (AFAIK) to be firmly against the Iraq war.

Ron Paul was against the war from the start, voted against the authorization. But he's not nearly as high-profile as Hagel.

[Daaaaave]

so did linc.

[Jason the Yank]

CULEBRA CREEK, Colo (Reuters) - As the snow melts from the towering peaks in the distance, Culebra Creek runs fast and the trout are biting. But Van Beecham, a fourth generation fishing guide, is uneasy.

"When I was a kid we never had regular run-off from the mountains in February or March. This is global warming," Beecham said.

The early run-offs are one of many signs of warming temperatures that have caught the attention of hunters and anglers around the United States -- an influential group that has its pulse on the outdoors.

"If you have early runoffs then you have less water in the summer and autumn," said Oregon-based Jack Williams, a senior scientist with conservation group Trout Unlimited.

Trout like cold water and become stressed on hot summer days, because water levels are lower and temperatures are higher than would have been the case if the run-off came at more traditional times from April to June.

"We are finding a lot of concern among anglers and hunters about climate change. These people value traditions and their family and it will affect their children and their ability to enjoy these kinds of outdoor experience," Williams said.

The political run-off could flow as far as the Republican Party, which has broad support from hunters and anglers but which has been reluctant to address global warming.

President George W. Bush and Vice President

Dick Cheney both hunt and fish. But both also have ties to the oil industry and they have been less than enthusiastic about embracing political measures to curb greenhouse gas emissions.

The vast majority of scientists agree that human activities such as burning fossil fuels are contributing to a rapid warming of the planet that cannot be explained by natural cycles.

WHERE ARE THE GEESE?

Professional hunters have also detected climate-related changes that affect their trade.

"The past season was a bad one for goose hunting ... I would say the clients only got about 40 percent of what they usually get," said Corey Marchbank, a goose hunting guide in the eastern Canadian province of Prince Edward Island.

He said the weather seemed to be the main factor. Mild autumn and winter temperatures meant the geese could stay longer in coastal areas that used to freeze up.

An early grain harvest last season also meant there was less in the fields to attract the birds when the hunting season began in October.

Hunters and anglers notice such things and are behind many conservation measures in the United States, not least because they could not shoot game or catch fish without protected habitat.

"We have a lot of support from duck hunters who know our work in protecting wetlands is vital," said Ben McNitt, communications director for the National Wildlife Federation.

Outdoorsmen were seen as instrumental in getting congressional protection from oil and gas drilling last year for two wild areas: the Valle Vidal in New Mexico and the Rocky Mountain Front in Montana.

"Sportsmen played a critical role in convincing Congress to protect these areas," said Kira Finkler, legislative director for Trout Unlimited.

Groups like Trout Unlimited are now directing political attention to climate change issues and policy.

A commonly cited figure used by the National Wildlife Federation is that more than 40 million Americans hunt and fish and that they spend $70 billion a year on such activities.

Guns, guides, gas, rods, licenses: it all costs money. And the numbers and the cash all add up to influence.

A nationwide survey of licensed hunters and anglers last year commissioned by the National Wildlife Federation found that 76 percent of those polled agreed that global warming was occurring and the same percentage said they had observed climatic changes in the areas where they lived.

Eighty percent of the outdoors-types surveyed said they believed the United States should be a world leader in addressing global warming.

Half of those polled identified themselves as evangelical Christians -- a key support base for the Republican Party, which has been divided on the issue of global warming.

"If the priorities of evangelicals change from social issues like abortion to the environment it could have a profound effect on the Republican Party," said John Green, a political scientist at the University of Akron.

It could make the Republicans embrace more environment issues or it could lose support to the Democrats, Green said.

This is basically how Brian Schweitzer framed the issue in getting elected up here: don't say "environmentalism", which conjures up images of soap-dodging hippies spiking trees and such, say "conservation" and pitch it as preserving hunting and fishing areas.

[Daaaaave]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0305072fcc4.html?wp_ml=0

thanks cbs for turning my son GAY

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by Daaaaave:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0305072fcc4.html?wp_ml=0

thanks cbs for turning my son GAY

[Gordon Comstock]

hahaha, it's reading things like that reminds me just how superior I am to most people.

[Oggy73]

Originally posted by super_imps:

How "clean" is Obama thought to be? I mean, Bush had his Vietnam record, the drunk driving, the whole drink and (possibly) drugs thing...

Obama appears to have some unpaid parking tickets.

What will Obama's opponent have to smear him with once the campaign gets serious?

There have been some very slight noises about financial improprieties: he had some land deals with Tony Rezko who, as wiki summarizes, is currently facing federal charges of attempted extortion, money laundering, and fraud.

And just recently:

"Sen. Barack Obama said Wednesday that he was unaware until this week that he once held stock in two companies owned by political contributors, but that he never took any actions in the Senate or elsewhere to further their business interests before ending his brief foray into high-risk investing.

Under the terms of a trust he was setting up in February 2005, Obama said, his broker made the decision to invest as much as $100,000 in shares in the companies, both of which had business interests before the federal government around that time.

"At no point did I know what stocks were held," Obama (D-Ill.) said at a news conference. "And at no point did I direct how those stocks were invested."

Obama said the decisions to invest in those two companies were made by the broker without his knowledge, as part of a "quasi-blind trust" arrangement he said he had hoped would fend off conflict-of-interest questions. The trust documents were actually signed three months after the securities were purchased, but Obama was operating under the terms of the agreement and knew no details about the investments.

"The thing didn't work the way I wanted it to," said Obama, who added that he terminated the investments at a loss of $13,000 in the fall of 2005."

Neither of which stories has much legs or actually suggests Obama did anything wrong, but they may be enough for some "where there's smoke there's fire" mudslinging down the road.

[Daaaaave]

"Last November, the American people made a clear call for a new direction, and Democrats are committed to bringing stability to Iraq and bringing our troops home from a civil war."

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid today joined Assistant Democratic Leader Dick Durbin, Democratic Conference Vice Chairman Charles Schumer, Democratic Conference Secretary Patty Murray, Senator Russ Feingold, and Senator Evan Bayh to announce a new Joint Resolution to revise U.S. policy on Iraq. Iraq has fallen into a bloody civil war, and as conditions on the ground have changed so must U.S. policy change to meet them.

The Reid Joint Resolution builds on the longstanding Democratic position on Iraq and the Levin-Reed Amendment: the current conflict in Iraq requires a political solution, Iraq must take responsibility for its own future, and our troops should not be policing a civil war. It contains binding language to direct the President to transition the mission for U.S. forces in Iraq and begin their phased redeployment within one-hundred twenty days with a goal of redeploying all combat forces by March 31, 2008. A limited number of troops would remain for the purposes of force protection, training and equipping Iraqi troops, and targeted counter-terror options.

"The President's strategy in Iraq is not working, and Congress must decide whether to follow his failed policies or whether to change course," said Senator Reid. "Democrats believe, as does an overwhelming majority of the American people, that the time has come to transition the mission of U.S. forces in Iraq. Hopefully, Senate Republicans will now join Democrats and the American people in calling for a change in course. They must put doing the right thing above protecting the President."

harry reid finally gets of the shitter

[Jason the Yank]

CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) - An important ally when George W. Bush first won the presidency, the Christian Coalition of America says it's poised again to help a conservative win the White House. Whether it can back up that pledge is an open question.

In the seven years since Bush beat John McCain (news, bio, voting record) en route to the Republican nomination, the coalition has spiraled into debt and its leadership has fractured. The coalition is trying to resurrect its once-vaunted influence at a time when religious conservatives are struggling to find an acceptable candidate among the leading contenders for the 2008 Republican nomination.

"Bush was just a darling, I think, of the religious right. But I think that this is going to be a different election because you don't have a George Bush running," said Roberta Combs, president of the South Carolina-based group that claims a mailing list of 2 million members and sends weekly e-mail blasts to 1 million potential voters.

Among the leading GOP contenders, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani favors abortion rights and domestic partnerships for gays and has a messy marital history. Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney's Mormon faith and shifting positions on social issues have raised eyebrows of Christian fundamentalists.

And Arizona Sen. John McCain, whose loss to Bush in 2000 was helped along by the coalition after he called TV preachers Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell "agents of intolerance," is viewed skeptically by many religious conservatives.

Even by its own admission, the coalition, which was founded by Robertson and which for years served as a key ally for conservative candidates, faces a changed landscape. Scads of other conservative Christian organizations concerned with many of the same issues, with opposition to abortion and gay marriage at the top of the list, now vie for candidate attention and may offer endorsements.

With no overarching conservative Christian group anointing a candidate, this season's GOP primary process is "much more open, much more decentralized and, frankly, much more complicated," said John Green, a senior fellow at the Pew Institute's Forum on Religion and Public Life.

Robertson launched the coalition as he ran for the White House in 1988. While his candidacy for the Republican nomination faltered, religious conservatives were emboldened to demand a greater voice in the GOP. Led by its charismatic and politically shrewd executive director, Ralph Reed, the coalition gained influence in the early 1990s.

After Reed stepped down in 1997 to court Christian conservative voters for Bush's 2000 campaign, that influence began to wane. In 2001, Robertson severed ties with the coalition to concentrate on his ministry.

Randall Balmer, a religion and politics expert at Barnard College, said that when Reed left the coalition, "they lost their best strategist."

Add to that a whiff of impropriety stemming from Reed's ties to disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff and it shows that once-powerful Christian conservative personalities "are not the kind of moral avatars that they claim to be," Balmer said. "The religious right is simply collapsing beneath its own weight."

Money also has been a problem. Records show the coalition had $17,498 in cash and $1.7 million in debt at the end of 2005 after raising $2.3 million. A year earlier, it had $150,921 in cash and debt of $2.2 million, with only $1.1 million donated.

"The organization is a shell of what it used to be and on the verge of going under completely," said Bill Moore, a political scientist at the College of Charleston.

During the past year, leaders of the coalition's branches in Georgia, Alabama, Iowa and Ohio have bolted for a variety of reasons.

But Combs said such reports of the coalition's demise are overstated. It cut debt to $1 million in 2006 and "by the end of this year, all of that will be gone," she said.

"It's not like the Christian Coalition is the only organization that has its ups and downs financially," Combs said.

She and other officials with the coalition said its strength lies in its members. No matter how much is in the bank, candidates can't ignore the group.

"Those people are still there, whether or not they operate on a regular basis under the coalition banner per se," said Drew McKissick, a board member. "The people who are involved in that organization at the local level are extremely valuable to that candidate's campaign."

Combs and McKissick also say Christian conservatives are no longer simply seeking a place in the debate — now, they're in leadership roles.

But some Christian conservatives say the coalition has lost influence because it hasn't been aggressive enough in demanding that candidates oppose abortion.

"The Republican Party comes along every four years and whispers in our ears and, when the election is over, tells us to go away and to not bother them," said Mark Crutcher, founder and president of Life Dynamics, a Texas-based anti-abortion group who called the coalition "a functionary of the Republican Party."

Crutcher said he expects to be "stabbed in the chest" by Democrats, but it's getting "stabbed in the back by Republicans" that really angers him.

Combs, meanwhile, says the coalition is planning to help its members decide whom to elect by publishing the coalition's influential voters guides that were sent to 70 million people in 2000. Fewer will be printed this time, but they will be supplemented by e-mail and a revamped Web site the coalition is about to launch.

"I guarantee you, " Combs said, "when the primary comes around and we distribute millions of voter guides, we'll be a factor."

[Daaaaave]

new arg poll

I don't believe these numbers at all.

Democrats National

Biden 1%

Clark 1%

Clinton 34%

Dodd 1%

Edwards 15%

Gravel -

Kucinich 1%

Obama 31%

Richardson 2%

Undecided 14%

Republicans National

Brownback 1%

Gilmore 1%

Giuliani 34%

Gingrich 12%

Hagel 1%

Huckabee 1%

Hunter -

McCain 30%

Pataki 1%

Paul 1%

Romney 7%

Tancredo 1%

Thompson 1%

Undecided 9%

[Jason the Yank]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich was having an extramarital affair even as he led the charge against President Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky affair, he acknowledged in an interview with a conservative Christian group.

"The honest answer is yes," Gingrich, a potential 2008 Republican presidential candidate, said in an interview with Focus on the Family founder James Dobson to be aired Friday, according to a transcript provided to The Associated Press. "There are times that I have fallen short of my own standards. There's certainly times when I've fallen short of God's standards."

Gingrich argued in the interview, however, that he should not be viewed as a hypocrite for pursuing Clinton's infidelity.

"The president of the United States got in trouble for committing a felony in front of a sitting federal judge," the former Georgia congressman said of Clinton's 1998 House impeachment on perjury and obstruction of justice charges. "I drew a line in my mind that said, 'Even though I run the risk of being deeply embarrassed, and even though at a purely personal level I am not rendering judgment on another human being, as a leader of the government trying to uphold the rule of law, I have no choice except to move forward and say that you cannot accept ... perjury in your highest officials."

Widely considered a mastermind of the Republican revolution that swept Congress in the 1994 elections, Gingrich remains wildly popular among many conservatives. He has repeatedly placed near the top of Republican presidential polls recently, even though he has not formed a campaign.

Gingrich has said he is waiting to see how the Republican field shapes up before deciding in the fall whether to run.

Reports of extramarital affairs have dogged him for years as a result of two messy divorces, but he has refused to discuss them publicly.

Gingrich, who frequently campaigned on family values issues, divorced his second wife, Marianne, in 2000 after his attorneys acknowledged Gingrich's relationship with his current wife, Callista Bisek, a former congressional aide more than 20 years younger than he is.

His first marriage, to his former high school geometry teacher, Jackie Battley, ended in divorce in 1981. Although Gingrich has said he doesn't remember it, Battley has said Gingrich discussed divorce terms with her while she was recuperating in the hospital from cancer surgery.

Gingrich married Marianne months after the divorce.

"There were times when I was praying and when I felt I was doing things that were wrong. But I was still doing them," he said in the interview. "I look back on those as periods of weakness and periods that I'm ... not proud of."

Gingrich's congressional career ended in 1998 when he abruptly resigned from Congress after poor showings from Republicans in elections and after being reprimanded by the House ethics panel over charges that he used tax-exempt funding to advance his political goals.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Gordon Comstock]

Obama will win.

[Jason the Yank]

Such a fanboy. :*)

[Gordon Comstock]

I call myself an avid supporter, but to each silly Michigan-cum-Montana hick their own, I suppose.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

I call myself an avid supporter, but to each silly Michigan-cum-Montana hick their own, I suppose.

AJ SO defensive.

[bflaff]

Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

WASHINGTON (AP) - Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich was having an extramarital affair even as he led the charge against President Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky affair, he acknowledged in an interview with a conservative Christian group.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's nauseating -- or entertaining, take your pick -- to watch Republicans try to square their calls for a Scooter pardon with their past willingness to impeach Clinton for the same offense. /o\

[bflaff]

The train wreck that is Joe Lieberman rolls on...

WASHINGTON -- Joe Lieberman was beaming. "Sam Fox represents what America is all about," he said, "and that's why he will be, when confirmed, an extraordinary ambassador."

The scene was last week's Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Connecticut's junior senator was making a highly unusual appearance to lobby for Fox's nomination to be the U.S. ambassador to Belgium.

Fox has come under fire from Democrats because of his role in helping to bankroll the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in 2004 - the group that many Democrats still hold responsible for John Kerry's narrow loss to President Bush that year.

The day after the 2006 election, Lieberman, elected as an independent, got a $10,500 contribution from Fox and another $10,500 from Fox's wife. Both are generous GOP donors.

[Gordon Comstock]

Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

I call myself an avid supporter, but to each silly Michigan-cum-Montana hick their own, I suppose.

AJ SO defensive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>NAW

[omni_paul]

Those complaints are... wow. Just... wow.

I wonder if there would have been such an uproar had it been two female nurses kissing in the Snickers ad.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by bflaff:

The train wreck that is Joe Lieberman rolls on...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

WASHINGTON -- Joe Lieberman was beaming. "Sam Fox represents what America is all about," he said, "and that's why he will be, when confirmed, an extraordinary ambassador."

The scene was last week's Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Connecticut's junior senator was making a highly unusual appearance to lobby for Fox's nomination to be the U.S. ambassador to Belgium.

Fox has come under fire from Democrats because of his role in helping to bankroll the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in 2004 - the group that many Democrats still hold responsible for John Kerry's narrow loss to President Bush that year.

The day after the 2006 election, Lieberman, elected as an independent, got a $10,500 contribution from Fox and another $10,500 from Fox's wife. Both are generous GOP donors.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just join the Republicans already, Joe.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

I call myself an avid supporter, but to each silly Michigan-cum-Montana hick their own, I suppose.

AJ SO defensive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>NAW </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, amigo, it's HELL TO DA NAW. [/Lamar Thomas]

[Daaaaave]

Originally posted by omni_paul:

Those complaints are... wow. Just... wow.

I wonder if there would have been such an uproar had it been two female nurses kissing in the Snickers ad.

your post reminded me of this

http://www.y2khai.com/khai06.html

[omni_paul]

Like.... WOW.

[Daaaaave]

Early on, the IAFF made a decision to invite all serious candidates from both political parties — except one: former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

We made this decision after considerable soul-searching and close consultation with our two New York City affiliates, the Uniformed Firefighters Association Local 94 and the Uniformed Fire Officers Association Local 854, as well as our former Local 94 President and current IAFF 1st District Vice President covering New York.

The IAFF recognizes that Mayor Giuliani generally enjoys a favorable reputation as a result of his actions immediately after the tragedy of 9/11. As such, we want our affiliates and every one of our members to clearly understand the reason and rationale behind this very serious and sober decision.

Many people consider Rudy Giuliani "America's Mayor," and many of our members who don't yet know the real story, may also have a positive view of him. This letter is intended to make all of our members aware of the egregious acts Mayor Giuliani committed against our members, our fallen on 9/11, and our New York City union officers following that horrific day [...]

The disrespect that he exhibited to our 343 fallen FDNY brothers, their families and our New York City IAFF leadership in the wake of that tragic day has not been forgiven or forgotten.

In November 2001, our members were continuing the painful, but necessary, task of searching Ground Zero for the remains of our fallen brothers and the thousands of innocent citizens that were killed, because precious few of those who died in the terrorist attacks had been recovered at that point.

Prior to November 2001, 101 bodies or remains of fire fighters had been recovered. And those on the horrible pile at Ground Zero believed they had just found a spot in the rubble where they would find countless more that could be given proper burial.

Nevertheless, Giuliani, with the full support of his Fire Commissioner Thomas Von Essen, decided on November 2, 2001, to sharply reduce the number of those who could search for remains at any one time. There had been as many as 300 fire fighters at a time involved in search and recovery, but Giuliani cut that number to no more than 25 who could be there at once.

In conjunction with the cut in fire fighters allowed to search, Giuliani also made a conscious decision to institute a "scoop-and-dump" operation to expedite the clean-up of Ground Zero in lieu of the more time-consuming, but respectful, process of removing debris piece by piece in hope of uncovering more remains.

Mayor Giuliani's actions meant that fire fighters and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill.

[Jason the Yank]

Following on from Daaaaave's post:

Giuliani cancels forum with firefighters

By David Saltonstall

New York Daily News

NEW YORK — Rudy Giuliani never fails to cast firefighters as his heroes, but the nation's largest firefighters union all but declared war on him Thursday after he backed out of a forum for presidential hopefuls.

His withdrawal from the International Association of Fire Fighters forum exposed simmering tensions between the former mayor and city fire unions over his decision in November 2001 to limit FDNY personnel at Ground Zero.

Before Giuliani's decision, hundreds of firefighters were allowed to stay at Ground Zero to dig for remains of their 343 missing comrades, an intensely emotional quest.

But citing safety concerns, Giuliani decided on Nov. 2, 2001, to limit the number of FDNY searchers to 25 — touching off brief but furious scuffles between the NYPD and the FDNY and earning Giuliani the lasting animosity of many city fire officers.

Lingering resentment from that moment were laid bare this week in a letter that was drafted but not sent by city union officials, who were trying to exclude Giuliani, a Republican, from the planned presidential forum in Washington next week.

They failed. Giuliani was invited and agreed Monday to attend, only to say no two days later after the letter began to circulate more widely.

"The disrespect that he exhibited to our 343 fallen FDNY brothers, their families and our New York leadership in the wake of that tragic day has not been forgiven or forgotten," reads the draft.

The letter could ultimately prove damaging to Giuliani, for whom Sept. 11 remains a defining moment. He has even used firehouses as friendly backdrops for campaign events.

IAFF spokesman Jeff Zack said Thursday that, following Giuliani's decision to back out of the forum, the full letter would be e-mailed to all 280,000 members — representing 85 percent of the nation's firefighters — with some additional explanation of the dustup.

"The events of November 2001, we think, showed the true character of Rudy Giuliani," Zack said, "and we are going to make sure the firefighters of this country know that story."

Aides of the former mayor said prior commitments — specifically fund-raisers in Houston and New York — had forced him to back out of Wednesday's forum.

"We look forward to future events and an ongoing conversation with America's firefighters," said Tim Brown, who heads Firefighters for Rudy, a campaign offshoot.

The IAFF event is expected to be the first forum to include almost every major candidate from both parties, including Democrats Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards, as well as Republican John McCain.

[Ensign Greco]

is there a particular reason Edwards has lost the dark horse quality and enthusiasm he enjoyed before?

is it his overall slickness or he is permanently stained by being on such a disappointing ticket in 2004?

was I the only one looking at the Kerry-Edwards ticket and wishing it was the other way around?

[Daaaaave]

Originally posted by Ensign Greco:

is there a particular reason Edwards has lost the dark horse quality and enthusiasm he enjoyed before?

is it his overall slickness or he is permanently stained by being on such a disappointing ticket in 2004?

was I the only one looking at the Kerry-Edwards ticket and wishing it was the other way around?

lost in 04. since he's not currently in office, it's harder for him to gain notice. his backstory has largely been usurped by obama. his iwr vote.

[Daaaaave]

money

We're fairly certain that Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) raised $12 million through the first of March. Banked means banked; pledges don't qualify. About half has come from online donations. If that figure is correct, and we have reason to believe that it is, Obama will probably amass northwards of $18 million this quarter, and we'll bet that he banks a little more than $13 million. Can Obama build a mid-to-small donor base in time to reap its rewards by the end of the 2nd quarter? Unclear.

Expect Sen. Hillary Clinton to transfer $11 million from her Senate campaign account into her presidential account. Informed donor-types believe that she's be able to raise more than $20 million in "new money," giving her a grand total of more than $32 million . One caveat: a not-small percentage of the new money has been shunted to Clinton's general election account and can't be used for the primaries. So expect Clinton to have roughly $16-20M cash on hand when she reports. How much Clinton raises in the second quarter will determine how large her fundraising network really is. Plenty of donors are hedging their bets.

Equivocal signs from Sen. John Edwards's camp. But a $12-15M quarter is reasonable. His second quarter matters more than his first quarter. He probably needs to raise just as much. His fundraising drop-off from Q1 to Q2 in 2003 hurt his campaign more than some of his advisers care to admit.

[Daaaaave]

Nevada Dems Nix Fox Debate

By: Ryan Grim

March 9, 2007 05:45 PM EST

The Nevada State Democratic Party is pulling out of a controversial presidential debate scheduled for Aug. 14 in Reno and co-hosted by Fox News, according to Democratic insiders.

The debate was being hosted by Fox News Channel and Fox News Radio, the Nevada State Democratic Party and the Western Majority Project.

A Fox spokeswoman didn’t immediately return a call for comment.

Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards said Wednesday he would not participate in the debate, citing Fox's conservative ties as a factor. His deputy campaign manager, Jonathan Prince, sent an e-mail to the liberal website DailyKos, which was posted on the site.

“We’re definitely going to debate in Nevada, but we don’t see why this needs to be one of them,†it read.

The state party has been under pressure from progressive activists across the country to cut its ties with the debate. The liberal group MoveOn.org has been leading an effort to persuade the Nevada party to boycott the Fox News-hosted debate.

According to MoveOn, more than 265,000 people signed a petition sent to the Nevada State Democratic Party. The organization launched a website -- http://foxattacks.com/ -- as part of its campaign.

FOX News Chairman and CEO Roger Ailes gave the progressive activists more ammunition on Thursday when he jokingly compared Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, the junior senator from Illinois, to Osama bin Laden.

In announcing the event, a statement posted by the state Democratic Party has Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) offering high praise of the debate partnership with Fox.

“This is more great news for Nevada,†he said in the statement. “I'm happy FOX News will be a partner for the August presidential debate. Western issues will be a major focus of this debate in particular. With FOX News as our partner, candidates will have an opportunity to not only speak to Nevada voters, but voters across the West who will be instrumental to electing a Democratic president in 2008.â€

Ailes lauded the idea, too: “FOX News is proud to be a leader in coverage of the 2008 campaign season and a co-host of this important presidential debate. We look forward to working with the Nevada Democratic Party and the Western Majority Project.â€

State Democratic party chairman Tom Collins, in a letter posted on the party web site Wednesday, said Reid now shared activist concern about the event. Collins wrote the Reid "has asked us to take another look."

A spokeswoman for the state party did not immediately return a call.

[Jason the Yank]

Chuck Hagel, Esquire

"The president says, 'I don't care.' He's not accountable anymore," Hagel says, measuring his words by the syllable and his syllables almost by the letter. "He's not accountable anymore, which isn't totally true. You can impeach him, and before this is over, you might see calls for his impeachment. I don't know. It depends how this goes."

[Kizzak]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

hahaha, it's reading things like that reminds me just how superior I am to most people.

Some of the other complaints were pure gold.

There was one guy just taking the **** it appeared.

[RedefiningForm]

I never remembered the Dems being this intolerably socialist and protectionist under Clinton. Anyone care to jog my memory?

[bflaff]

Originally posted by RedefiningForm:

I never remembered the Dems being this intolerably socialist and protectionist under Clinton. Anyone care to jog my memory?

Referring to what?

[Jason the Yank]

^^^

whs

[Jason the Yank]

WASHINGTON (AP) - Not enough "star" power for Fred Thompson in a GOP presidential field that includes some of his friends? Whatever the case, the actor and former Tennessee senator is considering getting into the 2008 race.

Thompson, who plays district attorney Arthur Branch on NBC's drama "Law & Order," said Sunday, "I'm giving some thought to it, going to leave the door open" and decide in the coming months. "It's not really a reflection on the current field at all," he said.

"I'm just going to wait and see what happens," Thompson added. "I wanted to see how my colleagues who are on the campaign trail do now, what they say, what they emphasize, what they're addressing, and how successful they are in doing that, and whether or not they can carry the ball in next November."

Thompson, 64, said he was pondering a run after former Senate Majority Leader Howard Baker and other Tennessee Republicans began drumming up support for his possible GOP candidacy, citing his conservative credentials.

"I think people are somewhat disillusioned. I think a lot of people are cynical out there. I think they're looking for something different. ... and I think that they're going to be open to different things," he said.

"It will be interesting to me as I listen to people and learn and watch what's going on and what's the reaction, and the poll numbers and so forth, as to whether or not my instinct on that is right."

On the issues, Thompson said he:

_Is "pro-life," and believes federal judges should overturn the 1973 Roe v. Wade abortion rights decision as "bad law and bad medical science."

_Opposes gay marriage, but would let states decide whether to allow civil unions. "Marriage is between a man and a woman, and I don't believe judges ought to come along and change that."

_Opposes gun control, and praised last week's 2-1 federal appeals decision overturning a long-standing handgun ban. "The court basically said the Constitution means what it says, and I agree with that."

_Supports

President Bush's decision to increase troops in

Iraq. "Wars are full of mistakes. You rectify things. I think we're doing that now," he said. "Why would we not take any chance, even though there's certainly no guarantees, to not be run out of that place? I mean, we've got to take that opportunity and give it a chance to work."

_Would pardon former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby's conviction for perjury and obstruction of justice now, rather than waiting until all his appeals are exhausted. Thompson is a fundraiser for Libby's defense.

Thompson said he was not setting a deadline to make a decision and believes he won't be at a disadvantage if he waited until summer. "The lay of the land will be different in a few months than it is today, one way or the other."

He added, "One advantage you have in not ... having this as lifelong ambition is that if it turns out that your calculation is wrong, it's not the end of the world."

Thompson, the minority counsel in the Watergate investigation, was elected to the Senate in 1994 to fill the unexpired term of Vice President Al Gore. He was chairman of the

Senate Governmental Affairs Committee and left the Senate in 2003 to resume his acting career.

Thompson has acted in films such as "The Hunt for Red October," "Cape Fear," and "In the Line of Fire."

He was interviewed on "Fox News Sunday."

[BamaZeus]

I think if Senator Fred gets in the race, that pretty much eliminates 80% of the Republican field on name alone. To me, in time he could run away with it, since he has positive name recognition across party lines, he was squeaky clean as a senator and he can play to the party base very well.

I think if Fred is in, then you can count out just about everyone else except Rudy, McCain and Romney for now, unless a giant surprise like Jeb Bush, or Colin Powell or Condi Rice suddenly get in.

McCain and Rudy both have their share of minor "issues" to deal with like multiple divorces for Rudy and McCain being, well, a publicity-hounding lunatic at times. By the time they've had 8-9 months to hash that out before the primaries, that may sway public opinion against one or both of them. Romney just might not have the proper "telegenic personality" for the job, although he is a very effective governor and ran the Olympics very well.

[K-uglen]

I know Jeb Bush has said often, and publicly, that he won't run, but, without knowing the ins and outs of the man, wouldn't he be a very obvious candidate for Vice-President - especially if Giuliani or McCain are nominated and need a 'conservative veil'?

[Daaaaave]

thompson just another ****ing puppet. perfect for the gop

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by K-uglen:

I know Jeb Bush has said often, and publicly, that he won't run, but, without knowing the ins and outs of the man, wouldn't he be a very obvious candidate for Vice-President - especially if Giuliani or McCain are nominated and need a 'conservative veil'?

I think Bush fatigue might be setting in though.

[Gordon Comstock]

Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K-uglen:

I know Jeb Bush has said often, and publicly, that he won't run, but, without knowing the ins and outs of the man, wouldn't he be a very obvious candidate for Vice-President - especially if Giuliani or McCain are nominated and need a 'conservative veil'?

I think Bush fatigue might be setting in though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>only among losers, GWB is still my leader \o/

[K-uglen]

That may well be true, but for McCain in particular he would cover some bases?

Has Jeb Bush said anything about what he'll do, apart from twiddling thumbs, until the 2012 election cycle then?

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K-uglen:

I know Jeb Bush has said often, and publicly, that he won't run, but, without knowing the ins and outs of the man, wouldn't he be a very obvious candidate for Vice-President - especially if Giuliani or McCain are nominated and need a 'conservative veil'?

I think Bush fatigue might be setting in though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>only among losers, GWB is still my leader \o/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Poor AJ has gone mad from his time in the New Hampshire woods.

[Jason the Yank]

Originally posted by K-uglen:

That may well be true, but for McCain in particular he would cover some bases?

Has Jeb Bush said anything about what he'll do, apart from twiddling thumbs, until the 2012 election cycle then?

Don't think Jeb has said much of anything.

Bill Nelson's Senate seat comes up in 2012 though. Mel Martinez is up in 2010, but he's a Republican.

[Jason the Yank]

OMAHA, Neb. --Sen. Chuck Hagel, one of the more forceful Republican voices in opposition to the Iraq war, on Monday put off a decision about a possible presidential bid, saying he wanted to focus on the conflict and other pressing national issues.

In an odd twist, the Nebraska senator called a news conference to say he would decide about his political future later this year, saying a late entry into the 2008 race is still possible.

"I want to keep my focus on helping find a responsible way out of this tragedy," Hagel said of the Iraq war.

The Republican presidential field is crowded with 10 candidates, a number that could grow as Newt Gingrich and Fred Thompson weigh possible bids. Hagel's planned announcement touched off speculation that he would join the 2008 White House race or announce plans to seek re-election to a third Senate term.

Instead, he told reporters at a nationally televised news conference: "I am here today to announce that my family and I will make a decision on my political future later this year."

Hagel, 60, is probably best known to voters as a high-profile critic of the Bush administration dating to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. That criticism evolved into heated discordance in January when the Nebraska Republican called President Bush's plan to send an addition 21,500 U.S. troops to Iraq "the most dangerous foreign policy blunder carried out since Vietnam."

Citing the war, Social Security, trade and climate change among other issues, Hagel said, "I believe it is in the interest of my Nebraska constituents and this country that I continue to work full time on these challenges."

Hagel spoke at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, his alma mater.

The senator is a decorated Vietnam War veteran who made millions in the cellular phone business.

Hagel is a conservative who opposes abortion rights and favors a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. He has sometimes broken with the GOP leadership on foreign policy. In 2002, he voted for the resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq, but has since said he regrets the vote and was the only Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to repudiate Bush's troop increase.

Several prominent Republicans have already declared their intention to run for president and have taken the necessary steps such as hiring staff and raising millions for a White House bid. Among them former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney.

IMO, Hagel could be this cycle's McCain: everyone thinks of him as a maverick, but he's really a fairly standard conservative Republican.

Not included in the AP story, he said something about the nation's problems overwhelming the ideological debates of the last 3 decades and that "This movement is bigger than both parties," which E.J. Dionne (in his column for tomorrow) is taking as a hint that he might run as an independent.

[bflaff]

Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

IMO, Hagel could be this cycle's McCain: everyone thinks of him as a maverick, but he's really a fairly standard conservative Republican.

Not included in the AP story, he said something about the nation's problems overwhelming the ideological debates of the last 3 decades and that "This movement is bigger than both parties," which E.J. Dionne (in his column for tomorrow) is taking as a hint that he might run as an independent.

Really strange move by Hagel. It's like five minutes before he went on TV the mob called and reminded him about those pictures they had of him.

If he runs as an independent, I'm not sure who he'd hoover more votes from. He's pretty conservative, but wants out of Iraq, so he may draw from both ends of the spectrum.

Can't see him getting much funding though. Especially as an independent, unless he starts generating buzz from getting out front on some key issues (Hello, Iraq.)

[bflaff]

This isn't really election related, but I thought it worthy of a mention. From the AP:

Gen. Pace calls homosexuality immoral

WASHINGTON - The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said Monday he considers homosexuality to be immoral and the military should not condone it by allowing gay personnel to serve openly, the Chicago Tribune reported.

Marine Gen. Peter Pace likened homosexuality to adultery, which he said was also immoral, the newspaper reported on its Web site.

"I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way," Pace told the newspaper in a wide-ranging interview.

Pace, a native of Brooklyn, N.Y., and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said he based his views on his upbringing.

He said he supports the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell policy" in which gay men and women are allowed in the military as long as they keep their sexual orientation private. The policy, signed into law by President Clinton in 1994, prohibits commanders from asking about a person's sexual orientation.

"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said.

The newspaper said Pace did not address concerns raised by a 2005 government audit that showed some 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged because of the policy.

With Democrats in charge of Congress, Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., has introduced legislation to reverse the military's ban on openly serving homosexuals.

Pace has always come off like an idiot on TV, and this is more confirming evidence. This guy is Chairman of the Joint Chiefs?

Maybe it's true that Clinton ruined the military, if this is the cream that rose to the top. :/

"I can no longer sit back and allow <STRIKE>Communist</STRIKE> homosexual infiltration, <STRIKE>Communist</STRIKE> homosexual indoctrination, <STRIKE>Communist</STRIKE> homosexual subversion and the international <STRIKE>Communist</STRIKE> homosexual conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

Right on, sir.

[omni_paul]

Marine Gen. Peter Pace likened homosexuality to adultery, which he said was also immoral

So are people who are shown to have cheated on their husbands/wives booted out of the armed forces?

What an odd remark.