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  • Dynamic Youth Rating - A bug, a mess or a completely unexplained feature/cash grab?


    talc25
    • Public Status: Known Issue Need More Examples: No
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    For starters, disclaimer that I'm not sure if this is a gameplay issue or a database issue. Since it's about development in game, I assume it's the former. All testing conducted and being conducted in this threa in the forums, wich I am not responsable for starting, however I did help with the testing.

    Due to a lack of clear explanation on how the "Dynamic" part would work appart from the "If your nation does well enough in club and international stage, it will improve as it does in real life". My part of testing was done with this explanation in mind, with Andorra and FC Andorra being World and Euro champions internationally and ranked 6, after dropping from 1st to 4th and then to 6th, and at a club level, FC Andorra was a top 5 team in the world by the year 2036 and dominating the Spanish League. Comparing the results from a save with direct influence and to a save that had no outside influence, Spain's Youth Rating stayed the same, even with FC Andorra performing above for Spains coefficients. Portugal, with no influence, on one of the sims fell in Youth Rating, on the other flowrish well above the rest. But you can check the results properly posted on the thread linked above.

    The results make me conclude that either: a) It's not working as intended and therefore a bug, wich prompt reporting ; b) the dynamic part is not really influenced by the player doing stuff in game and should be random dynamic for clarity sake ; c) it's working correctly, but it's preset like some players potential on a -X where the value of X will define the save growth, wich, again, won't be dynamic and pre set by the game and we can't influence it as players; or d) Your idea of long saves for it to actually matter to lower nations with no leagues (Andorra, Liechtenstein i/e) is 60 to 70+ seasons, wich is unrealistic as hell, since I'm willing to bet that IRL F.C. Andorra sets up a decent Barcelonaesque setup, the Andorran team in 10 years would be fighting for playoffs positions, much like how fast Luxembourg rose in the ranks of international footbal in the last decade. This is not based on opinions, but there's facts such as the mentioned Luxembourg nation proving it so, as well as the Belgium NT, wich 15 years ago weren't all that much and now are sitting number 1 in the rankings.

    If you recon this to not be a bug, but working as intended, could a clarification on the system actually be put in place? At the moment it's starting to look like a media stunt to hype the game and not much of a working feature.

     

    Thanks for your time reading, other than this issue, I'm enjoying the game very much, this new match engine animations are golden, lovely stuff. Good vibes and keep up the good work

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    • SI Staff

    Hi @talc25

    Thanks for your feedback, and for the work that's gone into testing this. 

    There are several factors at play with National Youth Ratings, and whilst in-game success is one of them, it's also dependent upon the nation's ability to improve their footballing infrastructure. 

    I think it's worth mentioning that National Youth Rating isn't the only measure of the quality of newgens that are generated, so in the example you've given, FC Andorra growing as a club, improving their facilities and reputation would still result in better Youth Intakes even if the NYR for the nation of Andorra hasn't increased. 

    That said, we are aware of an issue where smaller nations in extreme periods of growth are not seeing their NYR grow as might be expected. 

    This issue is currently under review with our dev team, and I'll be sure to test any future tweaks against the examples you've provided, so thanks again :thup:

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    @Andrew James I'm currently on season 1 of a San Marino Challenge save, which is very much like the FC Andorra example @talc25 provided.

    It sounds like you might tweak NYR growth in a future patch for countries like Andorra and San Marino - would this be something that would require a new save or not?  I will drop the anchor on my save if it's the type of thing that would need a new save.

    Thanks in advance.

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    vor 2 Stunden schrieb Andrew James:

    That said, we are aware of an issue where smaller nations in extreme periods of growth are not seeing their NYR grow as might be expected. 

    This issue is currently under review with our dev team, and I'll be sure to test any future tweaks against the examples you've provided, so thanks again :thup:

    So, what does constitute a "smaller nation" in this case? I'm currently two and a half seasons deep into a "Build A Nation" type save with Ireland, and while they aren't on the level of Andorra or San Marino obviously, they aren't exactly a footballing giant either. Guess the question is if I can continue as normal, wait for a fix or have to start a new save once this has been patched. The latter would be something I kinda don't want to do.

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    2 hours ago, Andrew James said:

    Hi @talc25

    Thanks for your feedback, and for the work that's gone into testing this. 

    There are several factors at play with National Youth Ratings, and whilst in-game success is one of them, it's also dependent upon the nation's ability to improve their footballing infrastructure. 

    I think it's worth mentioning that National Youth Rating isn't the only measure of the quality of newgens that are generated, so in the example you've given, FC Andorra growing as a club, improving their facilities and reputation would still result in better Youth Intakes even if the NYR for the nation of Andorra hasn't increased. 

    That said, we are aware of an issue where smaller nations in extreme periods of growth are not seeing their NYR grow as might be expected. 

    This issue is currently under review with our dev team, and I'll be sure to test any future tweaks against the examples you've provided, so thanks again :thup:

    From some examples on the discussion thread, it feels a bit slow and frustrating as is atm, I understand the changes taking some years to be put into effect, 5 to 10 years. surely, but requiring a game to reach 2041 for a +9 change after european club success and international success as some other users have emulated as well, feels very unrewarding and unrealistic. The rise of Luxembourg NT should be proof of that, they're a really decent team by now and interest started developing from playing bigger teams and having some good players breakthrough, and those should also be taken into account. 

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    @Andrew James I don't see a fix for this issue in the change list, but it does say "including, and not limited to" in the heading..., so maybe/hopefully?

    If it has been fixed, I'm taking it comes under "gameplay" and would not require a new save?

    Thanks in advance for your time.

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    • SI Staff

    Hi all, just wanted to provide an update on this and hopefully some clarification on how this feature works in game. 

    The latest update doesn't contain any changes to this. 

    We've looked at a couple of the examples of smaller nations not improving where it seems like they might, but actually due to the way this system works, increases here are always going to be very unlikely. 

    The main factors involved in these calculations are a nation's State of Development, Economic Factor, FA Financial Power and Game Importance. These fields are all fixed, meaning that the potential for changes to Youth Rating in some nations is immediately going to be lowered. 

    A few areas that have been mentioned by some users as potential factors do not actually enter into these calculations, for example the national team ranking or financial status of clubs in the nation. 

    NYR is not the only factor that determines the quality of youth players in a nation - and in cases where the other factors have already been improved, such as the youth facilities at top clubs, can actually make NYR less likely to increase. The reason for this is that NYR applies to *all* clubs in a nation, and is quite an abstract concept to actually define - but if a nation with low spending power is already seeing improvement in the quality of young players due to improvements and investments made by clubs, then the nation itself will deem further investments into grass roots structures less necessary, as the improvement in quality is already happening. 

    In some nations, they will actually be more likely to see an improvement to NYR if the amount of foreign talent in their leagues starts to increase compared to domestic talent - assuming there is enough money and interest in the game to make those improvements. 

    I hope that all makes sense. I've already taken notes from this thread regarding how we can go about improving this feature in the future, but I hope you can appreciate that we want to keep things realistic - and it's a tight line to walk when we're trying to deal with situations that users may achieve in game for which there's very little precedent of in real life. 

    If you have any further questions, please let me know! 

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    15 hours ago, Andrew James said:

    If you have any further questions, please let me know! 

    So NYR is just there to compensate for other variables not getting the calculations right? Maybe you've confirmed this in the past, but I know it was speculated. And that this is why for instance Brazil has such a high youth rating despite France producing the best talents for years now, to compensate for their worse economy? 

    Are you then by making this dynamic not just ensuring the status quo and making the game more static than before if our improvements to infrastructure will net us a worse youth rating? And why market this to the most hardcore players knowing we'll think this will be a huge buff to build a nation saves?

    Lastly, why are you seemingly so opposed to the world of football changing in 20-50-100 years? You say you "want to keep things realistic", but that clearly doesn't apply to everything. Club rep, league rep, player values and wage demands are all dynamic. But sponsorships, prize pools and talent production is too much? The game loses any sense of realism not by us achieving unprecedented things, but by a large chunk of the game refusing to reflect those achievements. Who wants to play to 2080 just to see Man City still winning CL every year? 

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    @Andrew JamesThis is a bugs thread, so I get that it's not the place for in depth discussion, but I hope that you (and the people who will be deciding on the future of this feature) read Renyy's

    if you're not already.

    I get it. This feature is a bit of a nothingburger, but the fact is that a few of us would have welcomed a somethingburger. Not that we're all going to agree on exactly what we want and when in our saves we want it, but I think there is a commonality between players who will do 40-50 season saves and those who would like to see what they actually do as a manager at club / nation level on a long term save have positive effects for them. The ability to feel as though you're eventually effecting change to your FM world is key to long term players' enjoyment. 

    Slow incremental changes are fine, but I think people would prefer to see it slightly less slow and in the opposite direction, because you've essentially introduced a feature that 99% of people don't care about (or even know about) and the other 1% are pretty ticked off with, and which has pleased absolutely nobody. I'd suggest this could be looked at with regard to FM23.

     

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    15 hours ago, Andrew James said:

    I hope that all makes sense. I've already taken notes from this thread regarding how we can go about improving this feature in the future, but I hope you can appreciate that we want to keep things realistic - and it's a tight line to walk when we're trying to deal with situations that users may achieve in game for which there's very little precedent of in real life.

    First of all, many thanks for taking the time to post and clarify things.  I was playing my San Marino Challenge basically trying to improve my world ranking more than anything else, and now I know not to do so.

    I guess my main comment is around this paragraph.  I do understand you want FM to be realistic.  But in game it is possible to win the World Cup with San Marino.  It's tough - but I did it in FM19 (only took me until 2042, so not even a 100+ year save) and I'm far from the best FM player in the world.  Already in the San Marino Challenge thread, we have people getting out of Nations League Group D and doing miles better in Euro/World Cup qualifiers - and indeed one player has qualified for the Euros and beaten a team in the top 50 in the world.

    Now, in real life - there is no chance that would ever happen.  San Marino might sneak one win every 5-10 years against Andorra or Liechtenstein or something if they improve (which I believe they have a little) - but it's just not going to happen.

    So, in fact reality in FM should be more what it is possible to achieve in game rather than the real world if you follow.  FM is quite simply far from realistic in terms of what you can achieve with San Marino and any other small club/country that you can name.  My thought with DYR was it would match in game reality if that makes sense.  This made a lot of sense in my mind for a long term save with a nation like San Marino.

    Anyway, that's my 2p - I am super-passionate about the San Marino Challenge, my current save is one of those saves you know you're going to be playing for a very long time.  I know my passion does rather overflow sometimes, but I hope I've worded this right - it is most certainly intended to be constructive feedback and I do really appreciate your and the team's work  on FM - and again you personally for taking the time to feedback in this way, which is really helpful.

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    I have to agree with above posters, I was looking forward to a nation/league builder with the intent of growing DYR. I understand keeping it "realistic" but when we can win the CL with a minnow club from example Belarus within 10yrs I wouldn't call the game mechanics in that sense realistic and surely "features" should work with what is possible within the game. 

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    Curently playing in Mongolia in 2024. Won the League Twice in a row with FC Ulanbaatar and managed to get to the Asian Confederation Cup East Asian - Group1. We started witha DYR of 15 it has now gone down to 14. 

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    I think it's important here to define the expected user experience on this feature. I think in general that what users are hoping for is some combination of the following:

    1. user actions can have an effect on the future quality of the national team in a country. This is already somewhat true, right? A user can develop players of a specific nationality and do so better than the AI, generally speaking. But I think players were hoping that simply by their performance, the AI would get better players to work with.
    2. user actions can have an effect on the performance of other teams in the region in continental club-level competitions. This is really the one that I was hoping to be able to influence as long-term well-played saves in nations past the best 2 or 3 get pretty boring as the other teams don't really improve the way the user's team does. Essentially the goal would be to drag along the other teams in your league to match your success.

    As for realism, I am sympathetic to the fact that for "realism", we may not want a system where if you sim 200 years, the entire world football structure is completely random. That said, maybe some people do want that; personally I think it would be fun. But I rarely get past 10-15 years in any given save before the next version comes out. There's just not enough time for any "realistic" settings to make much of an impact in the type of saves I play.

     

    From a user experience perspective, I think an ideal situation would be that when you're setting up a save in the UI, there are a couple of well-explained sliders that impact how much the quality of a given nation or league can be impacted by performance; users who want to forego "realism" for a visible impact in their 20 year save can slam those sliders to an extreme value. Users who want realism for a 200 year sim can leave it on default or make it less impactful. etc.

     

    I agree with those who are balking at the fact that this was billed as a "HUGE" deal, when it's really almost nothing at all. You've whetted our appetite for ways that we can drag an entire nation into the elite of world football just by managing our club/nation, and it's clear that people want to be able to do that. 

    Edited by drhay53
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    12 minutes ago, drhay53 said:

    From a user experience perspective, I think an ideal situation would be that when you're setting up a save in the UI, there are a couple of well-explained sliders that impact how much the quality of a given nation or league can be impacted by performance; users who want to forego "realism" for a visible impact in their 20 year save can slam those sliders to an extreme value. Users who want realism for a 200 year sim can leave it on default or make it less impactful. etc.

    This solution would be the answer.  It's clear there are people on both sides of the "realism" argument and it's the only way SI would keep everybody happy.  I really like the idea.

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