The Midfield Battle - How do you Dominate

Good Day FMers.

I know that there is some tactical experts who can shine some light on my question about the midfield. I normally play with systems that have two players in the CM position. The system could be a 4411 4231 or 442. I do not play with a player in the DMC strata. I would just like to ask how important is it to have strong physical and hard working players in this position. Looking at my Arsenal Team the only player that I have that has some of these attributes is Coquelin. I tried playing Cazorla/Ramsey alongside Coquelin and got smash in the midfield battle. I normally set up with DLP S and CMD as my midfield pair.

My next option would be to go and buy a physical midfielder like Pogba, William Carvalho or one of the Bender twins I am thinking a midfield of Pogba and William Carvalho so Pogba would be my CM S and Carvalho CM D. I now have two big physical midfielders possibly recreating the Viera/Gilberto midfield combo or Petit/Viera.

I just think my Midfield duo of Coquelin and Ramsey is a bit too light weight.

I know the trending topic on these forums at the moment is ensuring is getting the roles and duties correct.

I just think that if the right players are not in the CM position then it makes it more difficult to win the midfield battle.

I would like to get the thoughts on feedback.

Are you sure its the midfielders fault? What did you use to decide who won the "midfield battle"?

Did other midfielders / forwards offer much when defending to pressure mistakes or leave it all to your central midfielders?

I find having fullbacks who can defend well and centerbacks who can defend space well really important with no DM to drop in to help them.

It's also important to define what you mean by domination. In your example, the Vieira/Gilberto combo didn't dominate midfield the same way a Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta midfield would. Vieira/Gilberto was a runner/holder combo for winning the ball back, and release it quickly forward. Their domination come from stopping attacks and launching counter-attacks, so you can't judge their domination based on possession stat, for example.

Are you sure its the midfielders fault? What did you use to decide who won the "midfield battle"?

Did other midfielders / forwards offer much when defending to pressure mistakes or leave it all to your central midfielders?

I find having fullbacks who can defend well and centerbacks who can defend space well really important with no DM to drop in to help them.

Could you let me know what type of defenders you recommend that can defend the space. I do not know what attributes to look for.

Well I have the Inside Forwards on Support and they both have good work rate, determination and team work. Ozil is my AMC and he has good work rate for a Playmaker. Bellerin and Monreal seem to have good defensive skills. Monreal is better defensively than Bellerin.

Could you let me know what type of defenders you recommend that can defend the space. I do not know what attributes to look for.

The deeper I defend the more then I prioritize:

1) Positioning

2) Marking

3) Jumping + Heading

There is less distance for a player to make up for a mistake with there mobility, hence need to be in the right place (Marking & Positioning). The deeper you defend its more important to shield the DC's as that space in front of them is in a really dangerous area when your deep in your half. They have things a bit simpler with little space behind them and players in front of them. As your deeper your more likely to have to deal with crosses so need to dominant in the air (Jumping & Heading).

Players like Mertesacker, Terry, Subotic, Huth & Morgan, etc

The higher I defend the more I prioritize:

1) Mobility (Mainly Acceleration & Agility, Pace shouldn't be terrible though)

2) Anticipation

3) Decision

4) Tackling

Because of playing higher there is space behind them, if no shielding player (possible if holding high line as you need to press to hold the line) space in front, and if the fullbacks have got forward space outside. They need to cover a larger distance to collect loose balls so need decent mobility. They could potentially have to engage a player in space so at least need hold them up by not getting ran past / turned inside out (agility), if they go for a tackle then need to win it as there will likely be less players to cover them if the opponent beats them (tackling & strength). They also will have opportunities to intercept balls in front of them, but if they miss it it could be disastrous (anticipation). With all this extra decisions they need to make they need to get it right (decisions).

Players like Koscielny, Kompany, Mascherano, Boateng, Tah, etc

Needless to say if you get pushed deep and your "mobile" centerbacks are terrible in the air and have to deal with a high cross you could be in trouble, the same way a more "static" centerback gets in trouble if he is left with space to defend because players meant to shield him have gone forward to join the attack.

The deeper I defend the more then I prioritize:

1) Positioning

2) Marking

3) Jumping + Heading

There is less distance for a player to make up for a mistake with there mobility, hence need to be in the right place (Marking & Positioning). The deeper you defend its more important to shield the DC's as that space in front of them is in a really dangerous area when your deep in your half. They have things a bit simpler with little space behind them and players in front of them. As your deeper your more likely to have to deal with crosses so need to dominant in the air (Jumping & Heading).

Players like Mertesacker, Terry, Subotic, Huth & Morgan, etc

The higher I defend the more I prioritize:

1) Mobility (Mainly Acceleration & Agility, Pace shouldn't be terrible though)

2) Anticipation

3) Decision

4) Tackling

Because of playing higher there is space behind them, if no shielding player (possible if holding high line as you need to press to hold the line) space in front, and if the fullbacks have got forward space outside. They need to cover a larger distance to collect loose balls so need decent mobility. They could potentially have to engage a player in space so at least need hold them up by not getting ran past / turned inside out (agility), if they go for a tackle then need to win it as there will likely be less players to cover them if the opponent beats them (tackling & strength). They also will have opportunities to intercept balls in front of them, but if they miss it it could be disastrous (anticipation). With all this extra decisions they need to make they need to get it right (decisions).

Players like Koscielny, Kompany, Mascherano, Boateng, Tah, etc

Needless to say if you get pushed deep and your "mobile" centerbacks are terrible in the air and have to deal with a high cross you could be in trouble, the same way a more "static" centerback gets in trouble if he is left with space to defend because players meant to shield him have gone forward to join the attack.

So if I play with a deep defensive line then ideally need someone in the DMC position to fill up the space in front. Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to get a understanding of the game. Also I have decided to delete all my ace games and start again by reading and trying to understand the tactical side of the game. I am starting from the back and then work my way through midfield and then my attackers. I need to get a better understanding of roles and duties. I basically need to understanding what roles and duties to select and get the balance right because I think I I understand that part of the game then the rest will follow.

I know I want to play 4231 or 4411. I want my full backs to go forward. What I do not understand is how to balance the midfield so that they can offer protection and cover the full backs

So if I play with a deep defensive line then ideally need someone in the DMC position to fill up the space in front. Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to get a understanding of the game. Also I have decided to delete all my ace games and start again by reading and trying to understand the tactical side of the game. I am starting from the back and then work my way through midfield and then my attackers. I need to get a better understanding of roles and duties. I basically need to understanding what roles and duties to select and get the balance right because I think I I understand that part of the game then the rest will follow.

I know I want to play 4231 or 4411. I want my full backs to go forward. What I do not understand is how to balance the midfield so that they can offer protection and cover the full backs

I think it is easier to get right by doing that. For example a 442 or 4411 could use two DM's, your then conceding space in front of your midfield which is less dangerous when your sitting deep. If you want to press then a flat 4 in midfield will probably work better as they will try to position higher up and force longer passes that your defenders can intercept.

I'm currently analyzing my current tactic (typing between clicking Continue ).

GK: SK-D

DR: WB-A

DC: CD-D

DC: CD-D

DL: FB-S

MCR: CM-D (Tackle Harder)

MC: CM-A

MCL: DLP-S

AMR: AP-A

AML: RMD-A

ST: CF-S

My left side I think is quite balanced, the DLP-S whilst supporting attacks is typically behind the ball. Some might say WB-S with DLP-S is acceptable, i'd say its more adventurous and depend on your style of play. I have been trying WB-S with DLP-D and I think it is an improvement or at least an alternative I can switch to as needed to change things. The DLP-D plays deeper than before with the WB-S making more runs it gives him another option and more attacking width. The deeper positioning gives him more space and can draw a midfielder out of position creating more space. The centerbacks, CM-D and DLP-D make a box shape (double pivot) which makes recycling of the ball easier and covers the pitch against counter attacks.

On paper swapping to an extra defend duty should make things more defensive, but on the pitch I think it has made my attack better as well. This is why trying things and analyzing them is so important, whilst rules/guidelines are useful, what you see on the pitch is most important. Some people would see 4 defend duties and think its a defensive or "negative" tactic, or that 2 support duties is unbalanced but my team plays some great entertaining football on the field.

The deeper I defend the more then I prioritize:

1) Positioning

2) Marking

3) Jumping + Heading

There is less distance for a player to make up for a mistake with there mobility, hence need to be in the right place (Marking & Positioning). The deeper you defend its more important to shield the DC's as that space in front of them is in a really dangerous area when your deep in your half. They have things a bit simpler with little space behind them and players in front of them. As your deeper your more likely to have to deal with crosses so need to dominant in the air (Jumping & Heading).

Players like Mertesacker, Terry, Subotic, Huth & Morgan, etc

The higher I defend the more I prioritize:

1) Mobility (Mainly Acceleration & Agility, Pace shouldn't be terrible though)

2) Anticipation

3) Decision

4) Tackling

Because of playing higher there is space behind them, if no shielding player (possible if holding high line as you need to press to hold the line) space in front, and if the fullbacks have got forward space outside. They need to cover a larger distance to collect loose balls so need decent mobility. They could potentially have to engage a player in space so at least need hold them up by not getting ran past / turned inside out (agility), if they go for a tackle then need to win it as there will likely be less players to cover them if the opponent beats them (tackling & strength). They also will have opportunities to intercept balls in front of them, but if they miss it it could be disastrous (anticipation). With all this extra decisions they need to make they need to get it right (decisions).

Players like Koscielny, Kompany, Mascherano, Boateng, Tah, etc

Needless to say if you get pushed deep and your "mobile" centerbacks are terrible in the air and have to deal with a high cross you could be in trouble, the same way a more "static" centerback gets in trouble if he is left with space to defend because players meant to shield him have gone forward to join the attack.

I think it is easier to get right by doing that. For example a 442 or 4411 could use two DM's, your then conceding space in front of your midfield which is less dangerous when your sitting deep. If you want to press then a flat 4 in midfield will probably work better as they will try to position higher up and force longer passes that your defenders can intercept.

I'm currently analyzing my current tactic (typing between clicking Continue ).

GK: SK-D

DR: WB-A

DC: CD-D

DC: CD-D

DL: FB-S

MCR: CM-D (Tackle Harder)

MC: CM-A

MCL: DLP-S

AMR: AP-A

AML: RMD-A

ST: CF-S

My left side I think is quite balanced, the DLP-S whilst supporting attacks is typically behind the ball. Some might say WB-S with DLP-S is acceptable, i'd say its more adventurous and depend on your style of play. I have been trying WB-S with DLP-D and I think it is an improvement or at least an alternative I can switch to as needed to change things. The DLP-D plays deeper than before with the WB-S making more runs it gives him another option and more attacking width. The deeper positioning gives him more space and can draw a midfielder out of position creating more space. The centerbacks, CM-D and DLP-D make a box shape (double pivot) which makes recycling of the ball easier and covers the pitch against counter attacks.

On paper swapping to an extra defend duty should make things more defensive, but on the pitch I think it has made my attack better as well. This is why trying things and analyzing them is so important, whilst rules/guidelines are useful, what you see on the pitch is most important. Some people would see 4 defend duties and think its a defensive or "negative" tactic, or that 2 support duties is unbalanced but my team plays some great entertaining football on the field.

So if you are using a flat 3 in midfield instead of a player in the DMC position. Is there still not space in front of the central defenders because there is no DMC. Would centerbacks still not need to cover the space on the DMC position.

I see a lot of the players like Cleon Herne and RTH use formations with players in DMC position. I can't remember Cleon building a tactic without a player in the DMC position.

Maybe these players who have years of FM experience came to the conclusion that it is important to have a player in this position.

How does the AP -A on the wings doing for your tactic

Maybe these players who have years of FM experience came to the conclusion that it is important to have a player in this position.

Nope, not at all. If I use someone at DMC it's for a specific purpose (like a Regista). I've also written a thread describing a 4-4-2 system. And I'm currently writing one that will use both a 4123DM and a 4231 formation.

Using centre backs to cover the DMC position can be very dangerous - if one steps up that's going to leave a lot of space behind him, and leaving space behind a central defender in such a situation is not exactly desirable.

Just remember that there is no "need" to have a support/defend combo in central midfield in a 4231.

The deeper I defend the more then I prioritize:

1) Positioning

2) Marking

3) Jumping + Heading

There is less distance for a player to make up for a mistake with there mobility, hence need to be in the right place (Marking & Positioning). The deeper you defend its more important to shield the DC's as that space in front of them is in a really dangerous area when your deep in your half. They have things a bit simpler with little space behind them and players in front of them. As your deeper your more likely to have to deal with crosses so need to dominant in the air (Jumping & Heading).

Players like Mertesacker, Terry, Subotic, Huth & Morgan, etc

The higher I defend the more I prioritize:

1) Mobility (Mainly Acceleration & Agility, Pace shouldn't be terrible though)

2) Anticipation

3) Decision

4) Tackling

Because of playing higher there is space behind them, if no shielding player (possible if holding high line as you need to press to hold the line) space in front, and if the fullbacks have got forward space outside. They need to cover a larger distance to collect loose balls so need decent mobility. They could potentially have to engage a player in space so at least need hold them up by not getting ran past / turned inside out (agility), if they go for a tackle then need to win it as there will likely be less players to cover them if the opponent beats them (tackling & strength). They also will have opportunities to intercept balls in front of them, but if they miss it it could be disastrous (anticipation). With all this extra decisions they need to make they need to get it right (decisions).

Players like Koscielny, Kompany, Mascherano, Boateng, Tah, etc

Needless to say if you get pushed deep and your "mobile" centerbacks are terrible in the air and have to deal with a high cross you could be in trouble, the same way a more "static" centerback gets in trouble if he is left with space to defend because players meant to shield him have gone forward to join the attack.

Nope, not at all. If I use someone at DMC it's for a specific purpose (like a Regista). I've also written a thread describing a 4-4-2 system. And I'm currently writing one that will use both a 4123DM and a 4231 formation.

Using centre backs to cover the DMC position can be very dangerous - if one steps up that's going to leave a lot of space behind him, and leaving space behind a central defender in such a situation is not exactly desirable.

Just remember that there is no "need" to have a support/defend combo in central midfield in a 4231.

Could you point me in the direction of your 442 thread. Could you let me know when you have written and posted about the 4123 and 4231 set up. I keen to get more understanding so would be good to read and learn.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/459944-Back-to-Basics-A-Complete-Club-Strategy

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/447398-Developing-my-4-4-2

The deeper I defend the more then I prioritize:

1) Positioning

2) Marking

3) Jumping + Heading

There is less distance for a player to make up for a mistake with there mobility, hence need to be in the right place (Marking & Positioning). The deeper you defend its more important to shield the DC's as that space in front of them is in a really dangerous area when your deep in your half. They have things a bit simpler with little space behind them and players in front of them. As your deeper your more likely to have to deal with crosses so need to dominant in the air (Jumping & Heading).

Players like Mertesacker, Terry, Subotic, Huth & Morgan, etc

The higher I defend the more I prioritize:

1) Mobility (Mainly Acceleration & Agility, Pace shouldn't be terrible though)

2) Anticipation

3) Decision

4) Tackling

Because of playing higher there is space behind them, if no shielding player (possible if holding high line as you need to press to hold the line) space in front, and if the fullbacks have got forward space outside. They need to cover a larger distance to collect loose balls so need decent mobility. They could potentially have to engage a player in space so at least need hold them up by not getting ran past / turned inside out (agility), if they go for a tackle then need to win it as there will likely be less players to cover them if the opponent beats them (tackling & strength). They also will have opportunities to intercept balls in front of them, but if they miss it it could be disastrous (anticipation). With all this extra decisions they need to make they need to get it right (decisions).

Players like Koscielny, Kompany, Mascherano, Boateng, Tah, etc

Needless to say if you get pushed deep and your "mobile" centerbacks are terrible in the air and have to deal with a high cross you could be in trouble, the same way a more "static" centerback gets in trouble if he is left with space to defend because players meant to shield him have gone forward to join the attack.

Crikey I thought I typed that...about time someone thinks like that :-)

Herne can I ask what adjustments is needed if you see your Centerbacks getting sucked into space in front when playing a 4231.

Herne can I ask what adjustments is needed if you see your Centerbacks getting sucked into space in front when playing a 4231.

I moved this post back to your thread here as it's about this thread I think.

There are all kinds of things you can do, which may or may not apply to your specific needs. Off the top of my head (there could be other options as well):

- Adjusting your def line to reduce space in the DM area;

- Changing Team Shape;

- Altering your midfield so both central midfielders have a defend duty;

- Changing a defenders' duty to Cover;

- Amending CD PIs to close down less or much less;

- Shifting one or both CMs to the DM position;

- Buying different defenders with more relevant attributes;

- Setting a different mentality;

- Some or all of the above.

Those are generalisations so you'd need to experiment to see what works for you.

So if you are using a flat 3 in midfield instead of a player in the DMC position. Is there still not space in front of the central defenders because there is no DMC. Would centerbacks still not need to cover the space on the DMC position.

I see a lot of the players like Cleon Herne and RTH use formations with players in DMC position. I can't remember Cleon building a tactic without a player in the DMC position.

Maybe these players who have years of FM experience came to the conclusion that it is important to have a player in this position.

How does the AP -A on the wings doing for your tactic

Whatever formation you use, there will be space somewhere, you only have 11 players and a field can only be so small. This is why its so important to fit your formation with your defensive plan.

My defensive plan is pressure by:

- cutting off passes to feet (tight marking).

- reducing space in front of my defence (pushing d-line higher) and increasing it behind, but I have mobile defenders and sweeper keeper.

- reducing time before being engaged (pressing more)

- forwards that lack work rate, concentration or mis-time runs will get caught offside (offside trap)

It needs to be an excellent ball with very little time and an excellent run against players suited to this style of play. If I use a DMC i'm allowing space somewhere else on the field to protect that area but that hurts the pressure I can generate. The flat 3 gives me better coverage width wise and the higher positioning means the space in the AMC area can be pressured. If I get chance tonight i'll throw some screenshots up showing what I mean.

Not sure what you want to know, my AP-A plays great otherwise I would of changed it. Because he's a playmaker he drops deeper and positions more like a support duty, but with the creative freedom and risk taking of the attack duty. He links nicely with my WB-A overlapping, positions for cutbacks, plays my CF-S / RMD / CM-A in with through balls.

Crikey I thought I typed that...about time someone thinks like that :-)

I am going to put something here...for people to consider. I don't believe in just dishing out a detailed "how to" cos then people don't go out and try.

You can build a defensive tactic that generates 60% possession and you camp in an opponents half, and you can build an attacking system which generates high possession numbers that camp in the opponents. And both of them are the same tactic, with the same roles and duties.

My style of play revolves around changing mentalities and shape in a game, without changing roles and duties. Its the best way to play the game imho because you don't need to go around making 3 different tactics.

I do have a different tactic for the vastly superior sides which I have no hope in beating, but for 99.99% of the rest of the teams I use the same tactic

I second Rashidi on this. 98% of the time I do exactly as he does. Occasionally I will have a 3rd tactic with just very slight variation in a position/role (maybe one more DM, CM or AM usually) to switch to easily IF needed, but I rarely do that now. One system, multiple ways of playing.

One system, multiple ways of playing.

It's the Supersystem..* cue soundtrack*

I am going to put something here...for people to consider. I don't believe in just dishing out a detailed "how to" cos then people don't go out and try.

You can build a defensive tactic that generates 60% possession and you camp in an opponents half, and you can build an attacking system which generates high possession numbers that camp in the opponents. And both of them are the same tactic, with the same roles and duties.

My style of play revolves around changing mentalities and shape in a game, without changing roles and duties. Its the best way to play the game imho because you don't need to go around making 3 different tactics.

I do have a different tactic for the vastly superior sides which I have no hope in beating, but for 99.99% of the rest of the teams I use the same tactic

So how much of hit in tactics familiarity do you see then when changing mentalities and shape? Or do you have 3 different set ups loaded into the tactics slots?