Why I believe SI deserve credit

First of all, I recommend everyone who feels the movements look weird, slow, etc. to do the following:

· Switch to classic 2D view, and spend some minutes tweaking the speed until you feel it looks right. The default speed is just too slow to look real for some reason. In my case, I found the optimal speed was about 75% of the bar.

· Once you feel it looks much like the 2008 engine (despite the big blobs ) switch back to 3D. I personally find that the "elevated" camera is the best (the highest of the horizontal views).

Once you got that working, I think the match engine looks just like the 2D one, only that you can actually see perspectives, the height of the ball, etc. This means I only see an improvement here. There are things that don't look real enough, but they didn't in the 2D either. The thing is, my imagination is still able to make up what's actually happening there, just like it was with the 2D view, plus I can see new additional info here.

We can't see step overs, we can't accurately see some of the player movements, we can't see keepers diving very well, we can't see the tackles in a precise manner, etc. We can't see that kind of stuff... YET. But I'd like everyone to realize that this is the FIRST iteration of a new match view, just like the 2D match engine was, back in the 03/04 days. We couldn't see these things in the 2D view either, but we WILL be able to see them in 3D, which would've never been possible in a 2D view.

In my opinion, the 2D view allowed for little or no more improvements as it was. You can improve the match engine itself to make it more realistic, but you could hardly make the 2D blobs look any more "realistic", because a blob doesn't have flexible legs or arms or head. However, the jump to the 3D view opens up an insanely big field for improvement.

You know that SI are the kind of guys that make little constant improvements here and there, which in the end sum up to make one hell of a good game. The 2D view couldn't do much but adding some bench, players warming up, etc. But, once SI manage to get this 3D view working (and it seems they have managed to do so already), can you imagine the room for expansion? The first and most important step was to just "translate" all the movements from the 2D engine to a 3D view. Even if it was just a box with textures. They additionally included some animations as well, but that's just part of the expansion we're talking about. The important thing was the conversion. And it seems they did it.

From now on, I bet new animations will be introduced every year, so we'll GRADUALLY be able to see step overs, new celebrations, cool saves by the keepers, tackles which are so precise that we can actually judge whether it was penalty or not, etc. Things that we could never dream of while the 2D was still the only apparent option.

You could say that you want a finished product, not a prototype, but you need to realise that the fact the 3D view doesn't look too real doesn't make the match engine any worse... you can still switch back to 2D if you feel like the 3D view is still not realistic enough for you (which is perfectly understandable), and there are lots of other improvements that will still make you enjoy the game a lot, just like every year, while knowing that the 3D way is now open and that next year the thing could look much better given that the possibilities are endless.

There are some bugs that need to be fixed by the release date (injuries, dooouubbllee sppellliiinnggg, and the fact that the match view doesn't switch back to the match stats/player stats/split view/whatever you were using between one highlight and the next one), but having followed SI closely since 2003 I almost "know" they'll fix those.

And once they have, I'm really happy to see how the transfer sytem now works GREAT with negotiations, how there are lots of little improvements here and there, etc.

I encourage everyone to wait until the patch in the release day, and see how things work from there.

I seriously want to give a big "hug" to SI, as I believe it's got to be difficult to keep up with such storm of negative feedback raining over them, and tell them to keep the good work we KNOW they're doing. I'm sure once these bugs are fixed, FM09 will be one of the best improvements EVER in the world of football management games.

totally agreed!

the 3d match engine is a huge step forward and we can't expect a perfect system straight away! it has incredible potential and i'm really glad they've introduced it!

yeah i think thats true but fm 09 feels like fm 08 i just cant get up to january i get bored

Great post and you're certainly right about the 3D improving over time, it will get much better and in a few years time we'll look back and see that it will have been improved greatly and we were wrong to ever doubt it. I will try what you've reccommended for the match engine as well, thanks!

As an entry into 3d the match engine is very stable, and recreates a lot of the game well. Of course its nowhere near perfect and there are endless additions / possibilities. But I don't think anyone actually expected it to be completely perfect straight off.

2d is fantastic and I'll probably be using that for the vast majority of FM09. Roll on the release.

Been enjoying it all so far, obvious "issues" aside.

I'm for using 2D mostly, just because my laptop isn't fantastic in terms of graphical power.

Looking forward to 14th November so I can play it "seriously"...

yeah i think thats true but fm 09 feels like fm 08 i just cant get up to january i get bored

that may just be because its the demo. for me at least i find theres no point in getting into the game because you only play 6 months. i can't be bothered to really get into the training regimes and getting backroom staff etc so i get bored.

once the full game comes out then i'm happy.

Very nice post. I agree with you.

Yes I agree 3d is great. It is basically 08 with a 3d look

Very well put. Good post.

Ah - a voice of reason - very good..!

First of all, I recommend everyone who feels the movements look weird, slow, etc. to do the following:

· Switch to classic 2D view, and spend some minutes tweaking the speed until you feel it looks right. The default speed is just too slow to look real for some reason. In my case, I found the optimal speed was about 75% of the bar.

The point being, it shouldn't be like that in the first place. When customers go out and spend there hard earned money, they should have the product working. People shouldn't have it settle for it being at 75%, it should be in the middle for a normal speed.

Once you got that working, I think the match engine looks just like the 2D one, only that you can actually see perspectives, the height of the ball, etc. This means I only see an improvement here. There are things that don't look real enough, but they didn't in the 2D either. The thing is, my imagination is still able to make up what's actually happening there, just like it was with the 2D view, plus I can see new additional info here.

The point is a lot of people are having problems with it. And that fact is, they could of done a lot better with it.

We can't see step overs, we can't accurately see some of the player movements, we can't see keepers diving very well, we can't see the tackles in a precise manner, etc. We can't see that kind of stuff... YET. But I'd like everyone to realize that this is the FIRST iteration of a new match view, just like the 2D match engine was, back in the 03/04 days. We couldn't see these things in the 2D view either, but we WILL be able to see them in 3D, which would've never been possible in a 2D view.

What will you see in 3D?

In my opinion, the 2D view allowed for little or no more improvements as it was. You can improve the match engine itself to make it more realistic, but you could hardly make the 2D blobs look any more "realistic", because a blob doesn't have flexible legs or arms or head. However, the jump to the 3D view opens up an insanely big field for improvement.

The fact is, 2D worked, 3D is very very unfinished.

There are some bugs that need to be fixed by the release date (injuries, dooouubbllee sppellliiinnggg, and the fact that the match view doesn't switch back to the match stats/player stats/split view/whatever you were using between one highlight and the next one), but having followed SI closely since 2003 I almost "know" they'll fix those.

Again, your assuming people are knowledgeable about the internet, not everyone is, some people just want to play the game without bothering about patches. I appreciate there will be little bugs (being a programmer myself) but big bugs are just unacceptable.

I seriously want to give a big "hug" to SI, as I believe it's got to be difficult to keep up with such storm of negative feedback raining over them, and tell them to keep the good work we KNOW they're doing.

Oh, poor SI, its so difficult dealing with the storm of negativity. Well they would not have this if they released a game which didn't have any glaring and stupid bugs in it.

You call it good work? I don't know about you, but if I don't do my job properly, I get a roasting from my boss, SI deserve the same.

Excellent post, VMX.

I greatly appreciate all the hard work SI have put in over the years and for the foreseeable future to bring us such an in-depth game. Its a tough ask to please everyone, but they do their best and I have no doubt that the 2009 edition will be another best seller.

To be honest, I think the 3d match view only serves to show up the flaws that do still exist in the match engine. If you watch any of the matches in FM08 or FM Live, there are instances where the player (blob) will stand still with the ball for a second or so. As this is only a blob then it doesnt get noticed so easily as it does when you can actually see a player standing there, appearing to be doing nothing.

At the end of the day, all these observations will help SI create a match engine, be it 2d or 3d that is even more realisitic than we are used to at the moment.

The point being, it shouldn't be like that in the first place. When customers go out and spend there hard earned money, they should have the product working. People shouldn't have it settle for it being at 75%, it should be in the middle for a normal speed.

What I'm trying to say is, that's not a problem with 3D. It's the way the match engine works and has always worked, both in 2D and 3D. Only that 2D didn't make it look so weird, while 3D exposes it more. I believe most of us played 2D at more than the 50% speed, and I've actually found that the 60% speed or so looks even more realistic in 3D than the 75% that I was using, I don't know if I'm just adapting to it or what, but that's my impression after a few more matches.

The point is a lot of people are having problems with it. And that fact is, they could of done a lot better with it.

Completely agree.

What will you see in 3D?

Well, we can already see:

- Accurate ball height and angle

- Distinguish kicks from headings without having to read it

- Actually knowing if a player suddenly stops because he made a tackle, because he fell over, or because he's just relaxing

And after some years of development (which was my point), I'm sure we'll be able to see things like:

- Being able to judge if a tackle was a fault or not, if the player tried to fool the ref. by diving, etc.

- Being able to judge if that direct red card was actually because an agression or not, and if you should complain to the FA or not.

- A wide range of different ways to hit the ball: regular kicking, volleys, headings, hitting the ball with chest, knees, etc., hitting the ball with the hand...

- A wide range of dribblings, such as step overs, roulettes, and all kinds of one on ones. This should prove really useful to be able to judge the technical skills of a player in the field and his PPM's. We could be able to see whether he's managing to get past his opponents because of his ability, because of his superior speed, because his opponent made a mistake or just because he was lucky. This way we could actually understand the good/bad ratings given to a defender for example.

- ...

The possibilities are endless.

The fact is, 2D worked, 3D is very very unfinished.

Erm... 2D and 3D are the same match engine, just looking to it with different glasses. If you feel like 3D doesn't work then the match engine doesn't work for you, because 2D will work just the same way 3D does.

3D doesn't LOOK very realistic? ok. Play with 2D and you won't have to see the unrealistic movements, just like you've done in every previous version. Maybe the 3D view will be good enough for you next year, or maybe not.

But if SI never take the step forward and try to develop the 3D view, we'll never have a perfect 3D view. This is not PES, a match engine like this can take ages to polish, and the sooner it's released, the sooner it'll get improved and improved until it reaches the point we all want it to be at.

That's why I'll never blame SI for taking that step and building the 3D engine, as long as they keep the 2D option for everyone that doesn't like it... yet. In the long term, this will prove to be the right decission, I'm sure of that.

Again, your assuming people are knowledgeable about the internet, not everyone is, some people just want to play the game without bothering about patches.

There are lots of games these days that won't even start out of the box until a patch is released and corrects some strange bug. There are other games that have big playability bugs (such as the injuries one) and never get solved, because the companies don't care about it as long as it gets sold.

However, SI is a very different company. You don't usually get the game developers themselves to get involved in the forums and argue about the features of the game and how they should be. The demo was released yesterday, and due to the forum feedback SI are already working on it, while most companies wouldn't give a f*** about what people shout in their forums the day after a release. They would just ignore it and keep their regular schedule, and nothing would probably be fixed until the planned 9.0.1 patch or something. However, SI have already announced they'll release a patch the same day the game is released.

Personally, I believe if you try the demo you're already aware of the bugs the game will carry (so you won't get your money scammed). Obviously, if you were able to come to this site to get the demo, you'll also read the announcement about the release day patch.

And if you spend your money in the game without having tried the demo, notice the bugs, and you can't even bother googling it for a solution (which will pop up instantly in the form of a patch), I very much doubt that you'll even have the patience to play this game. Not to mention that you can "check for updates" in the main menu of the game itself.

I can accept that people make unvoluntary mistakes, as long as they admit it and put all their efforts in solving them. And this has always been the case for SI. And I can accept that because I know that most people/companies can get away without doing that nowadays, so it's down to their choice if they help their customers or not. SI DOES help their customers. And I appreciate that.

I appreciate there will be little bugs (being a programmer myself) but big bugs are just unacceptable.

Yes, I also believe that things should've been better, but not regarding the 3D view.

For a start, I can't understand how the ssspeellinggg bug could get past any testing phase given that it seems to happen to everybody.

I can understand that the injuries thing may be a bit harder to track because it doesn't happen ALWAYS (it seems like it depends somewhat on training, and doesn't seem to happen in every match), but still it's such a big bug that I believe it should've called the beta testers' attention.

You call it good work? I don't know about you, but if I don't do my job properly, I get a roasting from my boss, SI deserve the same.

If you're actually a programmer, you should know that a game like Football Manager is such a huge piece of code that the most irrelevant modification at one end, can trigger a huge and unpredictable change at the other. I myself have suffered it and, though I do believe it's the programmers fault (beta-testing exists), I consider some things can go unnoticed due to forced time schedules and those kind of things.

What I really can't accept is that those bugs don't get sorted as soon as possible. But, as I said, I believe SI couldn't do more to fix them.

Finally a positive post.

Thanks SI for another promising football manager.

For a start, I can't understand how the ssspeellinggg bug could get past any testing phase given that it seems to happen to everybody.

Can I just say that I've didn't know there was even a problem with the text boxes till I came on here - and I have used them in both full screen (like when entering my name at the start) and in windowed mode.

In future years I look forward to seeing an 'action-replay' camera installed into the engine. Something like

Ronaldo does a ballerina dance and skips past a defender! [hit the replay button]

Close up of him doing a little shimmy with the ball! mint!

Can I just say that I've didn't know there was even a problem with the text boxes till I came on here - and I have used them in both full screen (like when entering my name at the start) and in windowed mode.

I never got into FM08 until lately because I kept looking on here, and thinking, what's the point with so many bugs. I didn't notice the typing bug, and like you, if it wasn't on here, I would be none the wiser. If I buy this years version, one thing I've learnt from last year is to play the game myself, and not just think that I'll encounter everyone elses problems.

If you're actually a programmer, you should know that a game like Football Manager is such a huge piece of code that the most irrelevant modification at one end, can trigger a huge and unpredictable change at the other. I myself have suffered it and, though I do believe it's the programmers fault (beta-testing exists), I consider some things can go unnoticed due to forced time schedules and those kind of things.

What I really can't accept is that those bugs don't get sorted as soon as possible. But, as I said, I believe SI couldn't do more to fix them.

If someone does not understand programming they have no idea what a little change can do to a whole piece of code...it changes everything and its like a chain reaction. With a game as complex as FM you can think of the chain reaction as in an astronomical sense...hence the whole host of new bugs.

Now the 3D match engine is in the code...that itself requires complex mathematics and thus its even more difficult...bug wise.

People need to understand that to implement a little thing in a game is not little at all...its a huge process.

I really love the 3D match engine!

Big thanks to SI for putting it in the game, the time was right for a 3D engine.

Remember you can adjust the 3D engine quality in preferences and you can go into you graphics card program and adjust the quality in there to! i use a Gforce8800Ultra so i have everything maxed out in the Ntune program.

It looks damn great, for me this have been the best version of football manager for a long time...I can see past the bugs as i know the game will get patched, it will be cracker and put much freshness in the series again.

Thankyou SI.

The topic title is all I need to read in order for me to agree with you.

...FM is still the leader in football management by far, regardless of what they've done/haven't done since last year.

If someone does not understand programming they have no idea what a little change can do to a whole piece of code...it changes everything and its like a chain reaction. With a game as complex as FM you can think of the chain reaction as in an astronomical sense...hence the whole host of new bugs.

People need to understand that to implement a little thing in a game is not little at all...its a huge process.

Completely agree. The most stupid little change you can imagine could unleash god knows what series of strange behaviours somewhere else in a completely different place of the code. I bet things like the injuries bug have something to do with some weird modification which somehow affects player fitness in an exaggerated manner, thus causing the injuries and their low condition.

People need to understand that beta testing is a long process, and it's possible that near the end, when everything had been tested and was working flawlessly (i.e.: nothing wrong with injuries), SI maybe found a little bug somewhere, which seemed to be isolated and also seemed to be easily fixable without affecting any other parts of the game (completely unrelated to injuries for example). And after they fixed it and did a couple more tests (you can't start beta testing all over again from the beggining if you don't have a reason to believe it's necessary), they sent the gold code. Injuries was probably the last thing they thought that could be affected by that quick fix.

Then you release the demo, and **** happens.

It's just an example of what may have happened, I could be completely wrong. But I've been programming for many years and if there's something I've learned, is that there are things which are completely unpredictable for us humans when it comes to computers. We get used to creating complex programming systems that obey our orders, part by part, which we slowly melt together so that they work flawlessly and produce the results we want. And we slowly start to get the feeling that things are under control. Until we modify some stupid thing or introduce a different input than usual, and then we spend one week revising thousands of lines of code to find WTF could've gone wrong in the whole process we ourselves created.

We're not perfect.

Thx SI for this nice game.

FM09 will be addicted, just like the other FM games.